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The Big East media deal is up in 2025 in a little over three years. All of the other power basketball leagues will have at least 12 teams by that point. Val Ackerman has suggested the league is considering expansion. Leagues who aren't raided usually only expand at the top-end (see the SEC). I believe the Big East wants to add Gonzaga. I believe FOX wants to add Gonzaga. I have to believe that Gonzaga is at least considering it.

Some on this board think St. Louis will be team #12. I, however, do not. They don't move the needle at all, and historically are not good (with the exception of the Majerus years). The Big East is a made for TV league (FOX and CBS especially). Brands matter. St. Louis doesn't get it done.

Back to Gonzaga: the main issue is travel. But I don't think it's as big of a deal as everyone makes it out to be. Gonzaga currently has 8 men's and 8 women's sports. The NCAA only requires 7/7 men's/women's or 6/8. Also, you only have to play six sports in your main conference.

Therefore, the travel issue could be mitigated by the following:
A) Cutting M/W tennis
B) Either keeping M/W rowing in the WCC or some other Western league (as the Big East doesn't sponsor it)
C) Combining trips so that they only make 5 trips per year east for M/W basketball
D) Continue to schedule western-based teams OOC in Olympic sports

This would leave the following sports in the Big East:
M/W basketball (5 trips per year east for each)
M/W soccer (3 trips per year east for each)
M baseball (4 trips per year east)
W volleyball (5 trips per year east)
M/W golf (1 trip for Big East championship)
M/W track and cross country (1 trip east for Big East championship)

When you look at it when people talk about Gonzaga bringing their Olympic sports across the country, you're really only talking about soccer, baseball, and volleyball in addition to basketball. It's not that bad.

Ultimately, I think the Big East, Gonzaga, and FOX all realize this and get it done.

Is there anything else worth adding in the WCC? BYU is obviously off the table now, but could a San Diego, San Francisco, or St. Mary's have a shot? Denver unfortunately hasn't shown much prowess in basketball recently, but given that the Pioneers already have a toe in the Big East, they'd be a natural fit as well if the Big East were to go to beyond 12 schools.

While it is only my opinion, I continue to believe that the Big East grows to at least twelve members by 2025 (when its new TV deal with Fox goes into effect). Logistically, there is just no logical way Gonzaga becomes a full-member in the Big East; now, if there is a new and untapped way for Gonzaga to only move its men's basketball team into the Big East, then it becomes somewhat easier. However, there is no way Gonzaga willfully and understandably agrees to send its Olympic sports to the Big East. The backlash and negative impact it would have on recruiting for those sports would be substantial, and certainly not worth the bump in exposure and pay that it would receive as a BE member.

Now, what continues to make sense for both parties, that is much more realistic, is a scheduling alliance between the Big East and Gonzaga Men's Basketball. While not a full membership, if you can get 2-4 games annually against them with a rotation of BE opponents (perhaps non-Gavitt Games opponents), then Gonzaga gets stronger OOC games, the BE gets greater exposure with a national program, and Fox wins by being able to broadcast these games on Fox (or spin it as a premier event on FS1).

Many like to point to a Gonzaga-or-nothing move for the Big East in terms of expansion, looking to only expand with national championship-caliber programs that can elevate the league. When the league reformed, it was arguable that perhaps only Georgetown (and to a much lesser extent, Villanova) was the only program capable of competing for a national championship. Butler had lost Stevens, and Villanova had not experienced the national success it went on to go with several years later. Were Butler, Creighton and Xavier added because they were programs that could compete for national championships? Not realistically, but they prioritized men's basketball, had invested in their facilities, were located in major media markets and were like-minded institutions with the C7.

The Big East, with the success it has worked for, and the perception it continues to attain, can afford to add a program that add long-term value to the conference collective. It should still prioritize these same qualities (basketball-first athletic department, major media/recruiting market, strong facilities and fan support and a like-minded institution). With BE resources invested into this new program, expansion can provide the league value long-term (especially in terms of increasing the average number of bids and quality of seeding in the NCAAT). It adds television content, as well as Big East Tournament games for TV and ticket sales).

If the Big East were to add a SLU, or a UD, or a VCU, etc., and pair that with a scheduling alliance with Gonzaga, they will get a comfortable bump in pay that will continue to allow the schools to generate revenue and payouts on-par with power basketball conferences. Quite a few A-10 programs have heavily invested in their athletic facilities this past decade (SLU/UD/VCU) to position themselves for a possible call-up down the road.

I'd still argue SLU is in position as #12 as of right now. Again, that's just my opinion.

(12-24-2021 08:45 PM)GoldenWarrior11 Wrote: [ -> ]While it is only my opinion, I continue to believe that the Big East grows to at least twelve members by 2025 (when its new TV deal with Fox goes into effect). Logistically, there is just no logical way Gonzaga becomes a full-member in the Big East; now, if there is a new and untapped way for Gonzaga to only move its men's basketball team into the Big East, then it becomes somewhat easier. However, there is no way Gonzaga willfully and understandably agrees to send its Olympic sports to the Big East. The backlash and negative impact it would have on recruiting for those sports would be substantial, and certainly not worth the bump in exposure and pay that it would receive as a BE member.

Now, what continues to make sense for both parties, that is much more realistic, is a scheduling alliance between the Big East and Gonzaga Men's Basketball. While not a full membership, if you can get 2-4 games annually against them with a rotation of BE opponents (perhaps non-Gavitt Games opponents), then Gonzaga gets stronger OOC games, the BE gets greater exposure with a national program, and Fox wins by being able to broadcast these games on Fox (or spin it as a premier event on FS1).

Many like to point to a Gonzaga-or-nothing move for the Big East in terms of expansion, looking to only expand with national championship-caliber programs that can elevate the league. When the league reformed, it was arguable that perhaps only Georgetown (and to a much lesser extent, Villanova) was the only program capable of competing for a national championship. Butler had lost Stevens, and Villanova had not experienced the national success it went on to go with several years later. Were Butler, Creighton and Xavier added because they were programs that could compete for national championships? Not realistically, but they prioritized men's basketball, had invested in their facilities, were located in major media markets and were like-minded institutions with the C7.

The Big East, with the success it has worked for, and the perception it continues to attain, can afford to add a program that add long-term value to the conference collective. It should still prioritize these same qualities (basketball-first athletic department, major media/recruiting market, strong facilities and fan support and a like-minded institution). With BE resources invested into this new program, expansion can provide the league value long-term (especially in terms of increasing the average number of bids and quality of seeding in the NCAAT). It adds television content, as well as Big East Tournament games for TV and ticket sales).

If the Big East were to add a SLU, or a UD, or a VCU, etc., and pair that with a scheduling alliance with Gonzaga, they will get a comfortable bump in pay that will continue to allow the schools to generate revenue and payouts on-par with power basketball conferences. Quite a few A-10 programs have heavily invested in their athletic facilities this past decade (SLU/UD/VCU) to position themselves for a possible call-up down the road.

I'd still argue SLU is in position as #12 as of right now. Again, that's just my opinion.

The calculus was different back then. The league only had 7 schools. It NEEDED three more. The Big East doesn't need a #12. It would be a nice cherry on top which suggests it can be much choosier this time around.

Also, with regards to the Olympic sports, rowing would stay out west. Basketball (both M/W) would benefit from the Big East. I would argue soccer would as well.

Baseball and volleyball would probably take a hit but basketball is more important to the school than those two. The rest (track, golf, cross country) aren't dependent on conference matchups.

(12-24-2021 07:34 PM)chargeradio Wrote: [ -> ]Is there anything else worth adding in the WCC? BYU is obviously off the table now, but could a San Diego, San Francisco, or St. Mary's have a shot? Denver unfortunately hasn't shown much prowess in basketball recently, but given that the Pioneers already have a toe in the Big East, they'd be a natural fit as well if the Big East were to go to beyond 12 schools.

If the Big East were to ever show interest in Denver, I would bet Denver would even find the money to subsidize travel for all Big East schools coming west. Denver offered travel incentives in 1998-1999 to the WCC, but the league said 'no'. Denver's only invitation came from the Sun Belt, where the Pioneers stayed for about 15 years. Denver today would also be immediately competitive in all Big East sports, save for basketball, which is a heavier lift given the substandard hoops recruiting area.

That said, DU basketball would get a whole different level of recruit plus 5-7,000 people per home game minimum) if they could offer Big East opponents, and could draw 10K (or more) downtown for the bigger name opponents (Villanova, Georgetown, etc.). With 3 million people in Denver, thousands of them will pay to watch big name schools play here. They just don't want to pay to watch schools like Western Illinois or UMKC...

No interest in Gonzaga, none. They become another mid-major once Few leaves.

Less interest in Denver, a school none of the 11 have any contact with.

If St. Louis was such a hot property, why has the Big East waited all these years? They're not.

The best plan is still Notre Dame: have Fox buy the ND football contract when it expires in 2025 from NBC and swing a big-time money deal to move them to BE basketball. The Midwest division is solid (Creighton, Marquette, DePaul, ND, Butler, X) and the Big East legacy division even moreso (Georgetown, Villanova, Seton Hall, St. John's, UConn, PC).

Since the PAC isn't likely to add any school without football, it would seem to me the only realistic option for Gonzaga, if they feel the WCC no longer fits them (and I believe they were with the WCC before BYU joined) then they could easily slide into the Mountain West which only has 11 members for basketball.

But given their ability to schedule quality opponents OOC and the unequal revenue sharing agreement with the WCC, I don't see why they need to go anywhere. It's pretty much just internet fans that want to see them in a power conference, and the Big East in particular.

If schools in Provo, Utah, Morgantown, WV, and Orlando, FL can be in the same conference, why is it such a stretch for a school in eastern Washington to be in a league with schools in the Northeast and Midwest with nearby, accessible, direct flight airports?

(12-24-2021 09:26 PM)DFW HOYA Wrote: [ -> ]Less interest in Denver, a school none of the 11 have any contact with.

While I agree that full membership interest in Denver may be low right now, it's because Denver's hoops programs are not yet nationally relevant, not because the Big East schools don't have contact with Denver.

Denver has plenty of weekly contact with Big East schools as a Big East affiliate member in lacrosse for both men's and women's lacrosse since 2014. Denver has added a lot of value as a BE affiliate member, winning several Big East lax Men's Championships and won the NCAA lacrosse men's title in 2015 as a Big East member (Denver is still the only Big East member to win a natty in M Lax) and Denver is still a top 10-15 program nationally today in the sport.

The Denver women's lax program won the Big East title last season, and has been to the Final Eight of the NCAA women's lax tournament as a Big East member.

Denver would bring some good credentials to the Big East as a full member someday -- offering a major top 20 TV market as private with Big East level academic credentials (top 100 USNWR school, R-I Carnegie Classification, $800 million endowment, 96% athletic graduation rate, 13k total enrollment, 6K undergrads) and a $35-40 million sports budget with 80% jet away games from a major airport for all sports. Denver is also young, attractive and growing city to visit for BE fans, as the Big East schools get pretty nice fan turnouts here for lacrosse.

Credential-wise, Denver is the top non-non football D-I athletic department in the nation for 12 of the last 13 years by Learfield Cup points. All Facilities are all less than 20 years old with a 7,200 capacity no-bleacher hoops arena on campus and access to a 20,000 seat NBA arena downtown if opponents warrant. Denver would also add immediate value to Big East Soccer (M/W), Lacrosse (M/W), Swimming (M/W), Volleyball (W), Tennis (M/W) and Golf (M/W, with perennial NCAA tourney level programs in those sports, as well as the halo value of perennial NCAA appearances in m ice hockey (NCHC), m/w skiing (RMISA) and W gymnastics (Big 12 affiliate) as all of those Denver programs NCAA top 10 programs right now.

In short, Denver's men's hoops must get way better to be considered as a full BE membership candidate. DU just hired Stanford's associate head coach this season as the new head coach here, and he's already moved Denver up about 60 RPI spots to #284 just 15 games into his first season with a late recruiting cycle and a new roster. Denver's finished in the top 100 in men's hoops before in 2012 (#96) and (#63) in 2013 (second round NIT), so we know that such progression is possible here.

Right now, Denver M hoops is resourced at $2.5 million/yr for Summit League (top budget in the league), and if the BE were to show interest in DU, I am confident that DU would find the money to compete at the BE level. That said, DU is not going spend $5-10 million on hoops now to play in the Summit League - a chicken and egg situation.

(12-24-2021 09:26 PM)DFW HOYA Wrote: [ -> ]No interest in Gonzaga, none. They become another mid-major once Few leaves.

Less interest in Denver, a school none of the 11 have any contact with.

If St. Louis was such a hot property, why has the Big East waited all these years? They're not.

The best plan is still Notre Dame: have Fox buy the ND football contract when it expires in 2025 from NBC and swing a big-time money deal to move them to BE basketball. The Midwest division is solid (Creighton, Marquette, DePaul, ND, Butler, X) and the Big East legacy division even moreso (Georgetown, Villanova, Seton Hall, St. John's, UConn, PC).

Notre Dame is locked into the ACC until I think it's 2034. They're not coming back, and wouldn't even if they could. They need the guaranteed access to bowls that the ACC provides along with later season scheduling.

I am not sure how DePaul feels about it, but the Big East should give Loyola of Chicago a look. Or they could wait 5 years and see how they perform in the A-10 first.

Too bad the MVC and Big East couldn't just do a straight up trade DePaul for Loyola. Could help restart some old magic that DePaul had 40 years ago.

(12-24-2021 10:52 PM)stever20 Wrote: [ -> ]Notre Dame is locked into the ACC until I think it's 2034. They're not coming back, and wouldn't even if they could. They need the guaranteed access to bowls that the ACC provides along with later season scheduling.

The problem with the ACC is that they're the next conference to be harvested by the SEC and Big Ten.

(12-24-2021 11:21 PM)DFW HOYA Wrote: [ -> ]

(12-24-2021 10:52 PM)stever20 Wrote: [ -> ]Notre Dame is locked into the ACC until I think it's 2034. They're not coming back, and wouldn't even if they could. They need the guaranteed access to bowls that the ACC provides along with later season scheduling.

No one is "locked in" anywhere going forward, if the money's there. Texas & Oklahoma had a grant of rights in the Big 12 and they're leaving early.

The problem with the ACC is that they're the next conference to be harvested by the SEC and Big Ten.

The Grant of Rights was expiring. That's why they were able to leave.

(12-24-2021 09:28 PM)ken d Wrote: [ -> ]Since the PAC isn't likely to add any school without football, it would seem to me the only realistic option for Gonzaga, if they feel the WCC no longer fits them (and I believe they were with the WCC before BYU joined) then they could easily slide into the Mountain West which only has 11 members for basketball.

But given their ability to schedule quality opponents OOC and the unequal revenue sharing agreement with the WCC, I don't see why they need to go anywhere. It's pretty much just internet fans that want to see them in a power conference, and the Big East in particular.

I fully agree that Gonzaga would prefer the mountain west over the Big East. There's no benefit from moving to the Big East. Both sides don't really gain much if anything from the expansion. I don't think any Big East school recruits Washington and Gonzaga not really huge north east recruiter. The Mountain West keeps Gonzaga in California and Utah. It adds Idaho, Wyoming, Colorado and New Mexico to recruiting area. Hell maybe Gonzaga tries to have MWC go to 14 by adding St Mary's and Wichita State.

(12-24-2021 11:46 PM)46566 Wrote: [ -> ]

(12-24-2021 09:28 PM)ken d Wrote: [ -> ]Since the PAC isn't likely to add any school without football, it would seem to me the only realistic option for Gonzaga, if they feel the WCC no longer fits them (and I believe they were with the WCC before BYU joined) then they could easily slide into the Mountain West which only has 11 members for basketball.

But given their ability to schedule quality opponents OOC and the unequal revenue sharing agreement with the WCC, I don't see why they need to go anywhere. It's pretty much just internet fans that want to see them in a power conference, and the Big East in particular.

I fully agree that Gonzaga would prefer the mountain west over the Big East. There's no benefit from moving to the Big East. Both sides don't really gain much if anything from the expansion. I don't think any Big East school recruits Washington and Gonzaga not really huge north east recruiter. The Mountain West keeps Gonzaga in California and Utah. It adds Idaho, Wyoming, Colorado and New Mexico to recruiting area. Hell maybe Gonzaga tries to have MWC go to 14 by adding St Mary's and Wichita State.

Gonzaga will be interesting to watch with BYU gone from the WCC. BYU was their one pretty much guaranteed good opponent year after year in the WCC. Also, having 10 teams with 16 games meant that they could not play 2 teams a 2nd time, which helped their SOS out in conference play. Now that it's 9, they'd have to play everyone 2x which compounds the SOS.

Unfortunately for Zaga, they had a chance to move to a better conference and they blew it. The MWC wanted them bad and thought that bringing in Gonzaga might get BYU to rethink independence.

Would the MWC still take Gonzaga today? Maybe, but a couple years ago the answer was absolutely yes.

(12-25-2021 12:06 AM)Fighting Muskie Wrote: [ -> ]Unfortunately for Zaga, they had a chance to move to a better conference and they blew it. The MWC wanted them bad and thought that bringing in Gonzaga might get BYU to rethink independence.

Would the MWC still take Gonzaga today? Maybe, but a couple years ago the answer was absolutely yes.

If Gonzaga made it known they wanted in the MWC right now, they would be in IMO very easily.

(12-24-2021 11:55 PM)stever20 Wrote: [ -> ]

(12-24-2021 11:46 PM)46566 Wrote: [ -> ]

(12-24-2021 09:28 PM)ken d Wrote: [ -> ]Since the PAC isn't likely to add any school without football, it would seem to me the only realistic option for Gonzaga, if they feel the WCC no longer fits them (and I believe they were with the WCC before BYU joined) then they could easily slide into the Mountain West which only has 11 members for basketball.

But given their ability to schedule quality opponents OOC and the unequal revenue sharing agreement with the WCC, I don't see why they need to go anywhere. It's pretty much just internet fans that want to see them in a power conference, and the Big East in particular.

I fully agree that Gonzaga would prefer the mountain west over the Big East. There's no benefit from moving to the Big East. Both sides don't really gain much if anything from the expansion. I don't think any Big East school recruits Washington and Gonzaga not really huge north east recruiter. The Mountain West keeps Gonzaga in California and Utah. It adds Idaho, Wyoming, Colorado and New Mexico to recruiting area. Hell maybe Gonzaga tries to have MWC go to 14 by adding St Mary's and Wichita State.

Gonzaga will be interesting to watch with BYU gone from the WCC. BYU was their one pretty much guaranteed good opponent year after year in the WCC. Also, having 10 teams with 16 games meant that they could not play 2 teams a 2nd time, which helped their SOS out in conference play. Now that it's 9, they'd have to play everyone 2x which compounds the SOS.

True Gonzaga and the WCC lucked out when BYU fell into it's lap. Other than Saint Mary's BYU was usually the best team other than Gonzaga. The biggest thing I think is the same thing that held up Gonzaga last time is the tournament units left behind in the conference. Gonzaga like last time is coming off a national championship game loss. Does the MWC TV deal and tournament units offset what Gonzaga gets from the WCC tv deal plus the units earned. In my mind the only viable option is Seattle or Cal Baptist. I think they won't go after Grand canyon mainly because I don't think they want to go into Arizona.

I expect Gonzaga might sit a few years before asking the mountain west to join. I think BYU has 1 more season left in conference. We should hear about expansion by next year for the WCC. Though we could hear Gonzaga might move by 2024 also for all I know.

(12-25-2021 12:06 AM)Fighting Muskie Wrote: [ -> ]Unfortunately for Zaga, they had a chance to move to a better conference and they blew it. The MWC wanted them bad and thought that bringing in Gonzaga might get BYU to rethink independence.

Would the MWC still take Gonzaga today? Maybe, but a couple years ago the answer was absolutely yes.

Unfortunately for Zaga? They don’t need the MWC. They have a nice deal in the WCC and there are other teams in the WCC that can play basketball. USF is 12-1, with a 3-0 record vs. the MWC, 1-0 vs. the Pac-12, wins over Davidson, UAB, and St. Louis. St. Mary’s has a good basketball program. They can find good basketball programs out west to replace BYU.

The MWC is a football conference and Gonzaga will not have the power in the MWC that they have in the WCC. Gonzaga is tight with ESPN and the MWC is with FOX and CBS. It is not going to happen with the MWC. The geography is a non-starter with the Big East, plus they are with FOX.

(12-25-2021 01:20 AM)46566 Wrote: [ -> ]

(12-24-2021 11:55 PM)stever20 Wrote: [ -> ]

(12-24-2021 11:46 PM)46566 Wrote: [ -> ]

(12-24-2021 09:28 PM)ken d Wrote: [ -> ]Since the PAC isn't likely to add any school without football, it would seem to me the only realistic option for Gonzaga, if they feel the WCC no longer fits them (and I believe they were with the WCC before BYU joined) then they could easily slide into the Mountain West which only has 11 members for basketball.

But given their ability to schedule quality opponents OOC and the unequal revenue sharing agreement with the WCC, I don't see why they need to go anywhere. It's pretty much just internet fans that want to see them in a power conference, and the Big East in particular.

I fully agree that Gonzaga would prefer the mountain west over the Big East. There's no benefit from moving to the Big East. Both sides don't really gain much if anything from the expansion. I don't think any Big East school recruits Washington and Gonzaga not really huge north east recruiter. The Mountain West keeps Gonzaga in California and Utah. It adds Idaho, Wyoming, Colorado and New Mexico to recruiting area. Hell maybe Gonzaga tries to have MWC go to 14 by adding St Mary's and Wichita State.

Gonzaga will be interesting to watch with BYU gone from the WCC. BYU was their one pretty much guaranteed good opponent year after year in the WCC. Also, having 10 teams with 16 games meant that they could not play 2 teams a 2nd time, which helped their SOS out in conference play. Now that it's 9, they'd have to play everyone 2x which compounds the SOS.

True Gonzaga and the WCC lucked out when BYU fell into it's lap. Other than Saint Mary's BYU was usually the best team other than Gonzaga. The biggest thing I think is the same thing that held up Gonzaga last time is the tournament units left behind in the conference. Gonzaga like last time is coming off a national championship game loss. Does the MWC TV deal and tournament units offset what Gonzaga gets from the WCC tv deal plus the units earned. In my mind the only viable option is Seattle or Cal Baptist. I think they won't go after Grand canyon mainly because I don't think they want to go into Arizona.

I expect Gonzaga might sit a few years before asking the mountain west to join. I think BYU has 1 more season left in conference. We should hear about expansion by next year for the WCC. Though we could hear Gonzaga might move by 2024 also for all I know.

The WCC won't take Seattle because their basketball program would weaken the league.

The WCC won't take Grand Canyon because they are culturally incompatible with the other members of the league due to GCU's for-profit status.

The WCC won't take Cal Baptist because the WCC has a presence in the Los Angeles market and doesn't need another school in that market.