This is a hypothetical but serious question. Since we’ve already talked many times about the carrots that the ACC can give to ND, maybe it’s fair to discuss the sticks.
IMO, for ND the biggest implication of UT/OU leaving the Big 12 might be ND will have one less alternative in case the relation with the ACC gets sour. IIRC, back in 2012, both ACC and Big 12 were courting ND, willing to give ND a partial deal. In the end, ND chose the ACC, but if the Big 12 had not been a serious competitor, the ACC may have gotten a better deal, for example, six conference games instead of five games.
So let’s say the ACC gives an ultimarium to ND:
* Join the ESPN/ACCN as part of the ACC instead of having its own media deal and play six conference games (and particiapte the ACC championship race if it desires to do so) or
*Leave (in 2025 if legally possible; otherwise in 2036)
In return, the ESPN should/would boost the payout to the ACC. From this perspective, the 6th game is kinda optional but getting ND’s media coverage is a must for the ACC. ND is probably dead set on remaining independent but joining the ESPN and playing one more ACC game *might* be accpetbale. And if you think about it, this is actually the best time to make a credible threat. There are many more reasonable candidates now in case ND decides to leave the ACC and the ACC wants to add two more schools including TCU/Kansas, TCU/Ok State, and WVU/Cincy pairs.
Now, what would ND do? The choices are:
1. Become completely independent: Maybe the die hard ND traditionalists like this option but I would rule out this option because ND wants/needs a conference affiliation for basketballs and Olympic sports.
2. Join the Big East: this is a possible option. The Big East is a respectable basketball conference. But definitely one or two notches down compared to the ACC and I actually believe ND needs/wants some football alliance.
3. Join the Big 12: this used to be the best alternative for ND. This is still a possible option. But with OU/UT gone, the Big 12 would be closer to G than to P. Do you believe ND will join a G conference? By the way, this also applies to FSU/Clemson. I don’t think they can make a bluff about joining the Big 12 anymore. Therefore, contrary to what the media says, I think the football schools’ political position would become weaker within the league.
4. Join the BIG/SEC: this means the end of the football independence.
5. Accept the ACC’s request: this is the best outcome for the ACC and maybe the best outcome for ND as well.
Should the ACC do this?
ND would say later y'all! Hello Big East!
(08-20-2021 04:45 PM)random asian guy Wrote: [ -> ]This is a hypothetical but serious question. Since we’ve already talked many times about the carrots that the ACC can give to ND, maybe it’s fair to discuss the sticks.
IMO, for ND the biggest implication of UT/OU leaving the Big 12 might be ND will have one less alternative in case the relation with the ACC gets sour. IIRC, back in 2012, both ACC and Big 12 were courting ND, willing to give ND a partial deal. In the end, ND chose the ACC, but if the Big 12 had not been a serious competitor, the ACC may have gotten a better deal, for example, six conference games instead of five games.
So let’s say the ACC gives an ultimarium to ND:
* Join the ESPN/ACCN as part of the ACC instead of having its own media deal and play six conference games (and particiapte the ACC championship race if it desires to do so) or
*Leave (in 2025 if legally possible; otherwise in 2036)
In return, the ESPN should/would boost the payout to the ACC. From this perspective, the 6th game is kinda optional but getting ND’s media coverage is a must for the ACC. ND is probably dead set on remaining independent but joining the ESPN and playing one more ACC game *might* be accpetbale. And if you think about it, this is actually the best time to make a credible threat. There are many more reasonable candidates now in case ND decides to leave the ACC and the ACC wants to add two more schools including TCU/Kansas, TCU/Ok State, and WVU/Cincy pairs.
Now, what would ND do? The choices are:
1. Become completely independent: Maybe the die hard ND traditionalists like this option but I would rule out this option because ND wants/needs a conference affiliation for basketballs and Olympic sports.
2. Join the Big East: this is a possible option. The Big East is a respectable basketball conference. But definitely one or two notches down compared to the ACC and I actually believe ND needs/wants some football alliance.
3. Join the Big 12: this used to be the best alternative for ND. This is still a possible option. But with OU/UT gone, the Big 12 would be closer to G than to P. Do you believe ND will join a G conference? By the way, this also applies to FSU/Clemson. I don’t think they can make a bluff about joining the Big 12 anymore. Therefore, contrary to what the media says, I think the football schools’ political position would become weaker within the league.
4. Join the BIG/SEC: this means the end of the football independence.
5. Accept the ACC’s request: this is the best outcome for the ACC and maybe the best outcome for ND as well.
Should the ACC do this?
If we tried to force ND hand in the next 15 years they would point to the contract we signed and say sorry we don't have to do any thing.
If you give them an ultimatum in 2036.... How about we worry about that then? There may not be an NCAA then and the P4 may be a semi-pro to pro league then. There are bigger things to worry about than what ND might do in 15 years to say nothing about the divided state of the nation.
FSU and Clemson going to the B12 was not a bluff. If UConn had been added FSU and Clemson would be in the B12 today.
They will join only when the time is right. It would require serious changes. But I like the way We get to play them every so often. Heck We won one of Them.
Clemson and FSU going to the B12 is over wrought and over blown. It assumes UConn EVER had the support of NC State, GT, and VT - three schools who are dependent on football for their booster organization and for whom filling the football stadium matters. Here's a tidbit, those three never supported UConn to replace MD. Never. FSU and Clemson showed their ass to specifically cow and intimidate UNC, Duke, and UVa. It was Wake Forest's President who then made it clear WF would support Louisville for the health of football.
When initial straw votes are cast, they aren't always cast with a great deal of strategy. If Louisville had failed, Cincy would have been invited. People tend to forget that VT, NC State, GT, Miami and probably Pitt have the same football considerations.
(08-20-2021 06:52 PM)ChrisLords Wrote: [ -> ] (08-20-2021 04:45 PM)random asian guy Wrote: [ -> ]This is a hypothetical but serious question. Since we’ve already talked many times about the carrots that the ACC can give to ND, maybe it’s fair to discuss the sticks.
IMO, for ND the biggest implication of UT/OU leaving the Big 12 might be ND will have one less alternative in case the relation with the ACC gets sour. IIRC, back in 2012, both ACC and Big 12 were courting ND, willing to give ND a partial deal. In the end, ND chose the ACC, but if the Big 12 had not been a serious competitor, the ACC may have gotten a better deal, for example, six conference games instead of five games.
So let’s say the ACC gives an ultimarium to ND:
* Join the ESPN/ACCN as part of the ACC instead of having its own media deal and play six conference games (and particiapte the ACC championship race if it desires to do so) or
*Leave (in 2025 if legally possible; otherwise in 2036)
In return, the ESPN should/would boost the payout to the ACC. From this perspective, the 6th game is kinda optional but getting ND’s media coverage is a must for the ACC. ND is probably dead set on remaining independent but joining the ESPN and playing one more ACC game *might* be accpetbale. And if you think about it, this is actually the best time to make a credible threat. There are many more reasonable candidates now in case ND decides to leave the ACC and the ACC wants to add two more schools including TCU/Kansas, TCU/Ok State, and WVU/Cincy pairs.
Now, what would ND do? The choices are:
1. Become completely independent: Maybe the die hard ND traditionalists like this option but I would rule out this option because ND wants/needs a conference affiliation for basketballs and Olympic sports.
2. Join the Big East: this is a possible option. The Big East is a respectable basketball conference. But definitely one or two notches down compared to the ACC and I actually believe ND needs/wants some football alliance.
3. Join the Big 12: this used to be the best alternative for ND. This is still a possible option. But with OU/UT gone, the Big 12 would be closer to G than to P. Do you believe ND will join a G conference? By the way, this also applies to FSU/Clemson. I don’t think they can make a bluff about joining the Big 12 anymore. Therefore, contrary to what the media says, I think the football schools’ political position would become weaker within the league.
4. Join the BIG/SEC: this means the end of the football independence.
5. Accept the ACC’s request: this is the best outcome for the ACC and maybe the best outcome for ND as well.
Should the ACC do this?
If we tried to force ND hand in the next 15 years they would point to the contract we signed and say sorry we don't have to do any thing.
If you give them an ultimatum in 2036.... How about we worry about that then? There may not be an NCAA then and the P4 may be a semi-pro to pro league then. There are bigger things to worry about than what ND might do in 15 years to say nothing about the divided state of the nation.
FSU and Clemson going to the B12 was not a bluff. If UConn had been added FSU and Clemson would be in the B12 today.
This.
People talk about the damages ND would owe the ACC if it breached the contracts between them, but think that the ACC could just unilaterally issue an "ultimatum" to ND?
Interesting.
(08-20-2021 07:43 PM)Statefan Wrote: [ -> ]Clemson and FSU going to the B12 is over wrought and over blown. It assumes UConn EVER had the support of NC State, GT, and VT - three schools who are dependent on football for their booster organization and for whom filling the football stadium matters. Here's a tidbit, those three never supported UConn to replace MD. Never. FSU and Clemson showed their ass to specifically cow and intimidate UNC, Duke, and UVa. It was Wake Forest's President who then made it clear WF would support Louisville for the health of football.
When initial straw votes are cast, they aren't always cast with a great deal of strategy. If Louisville had failed, Cincy would have been invited. People tend to forget that VT, NC State, GT, Miami and probably Pitt have the same football considerations.
Cincinnati would have the second smallest stadium ahead of only Groves. Is that the direction FSU and Clemson want to go? My point is there was no way Louisville wasn’t getting in.
The ACC has nothing to back up such an ultimatum.
The ACC has no reason to give an ultimatum to ND. It's not like they need the ND slot for a Penn State or someone other big name.
(08-20-2021 07:13 PM)CardFan1 Wrote: [ -> ]They will join only when the time is right. It would require serious changes. But I like the way We get to play them every so often. Heck We won one of Them.
This ultimarium is NOT about joining the conference. It’s about the media rights. I think the ACC would like the money more than ND.
(08-20-2021 04:47 PM)esayem Wrote: [ -> ]No sir, I don’t like it.
Why not sir?
I think it’s advantageous for the ACC to act fast. ND’s NBC deal finishes in 2025. The playoff under the new format will start by then. The ACC is in an exclusive relationship with ND until 2036. But as time passes, the chance of ND thinking about other options would grow.
I don’t mean that the ACC should be overly aggressive. The ACC should offer carrots but at the same time should be aware of ND’s options and the ACC’s options in case of divorce. Phillips can do this in a diplomatic way.
(08-20-2021 06:52 PM)ChrisLords Wrote: [ -> ] (08-20-2021 04:45 PM)random asian guy Wrote: [ -> ]This is a hypothetical but serious question. Since we’ve already talked many times about the carrots that the ACC can give to ND, maybe it’s fair to discuss the sticks.
IMO, for ND the biggest implication of UT/OU leaving the Big 12 might be ND will have one less alternative in case the relation with the ACC gets sour. IIRC, back in 2012, both ACC and Big 12 were courting ND, willing to give ND a partial deal. In the end, ND chose the ACC, but if the Big 12 had not been a serious competitor, the ACC may have gotten a better deal, for example, six conference games instead of five games.
So let’s say the ACC gives an ultimarium to ND:
* Join the ESPN/ACCN as part of the ACC instead of having its own media deal and play six conference games (and particiapte the ACC championship race if it desires to do so) or
*Leave (in 2025 if legally possible; otherwise in 2036)
In return, the ESPN should/would boost the payout to the ACC. From this perspective, the 6th game is kinda optional but getting ND’s media coverage is a must for the ACC. ND is probably dead set on remaining independent but joining the ESPN and playing one more ACC game *might* be accpetbale. And if you think about it, this is actually the best time to make a credible threat. There are many more reasonable candidates now in case ND decides to leave the ACC and the ACC wants to add two more schools including TCU/Kansas, TCU/Ok State, and WVU/Cincy pairs.
Now, what would ND do? The choices are:
1. Become completely independent: Maybe the die hard ND traditionalists like this option but I would rule out this option because ND wants/needs a conference affiliation for basketballs and Olympic sports.
2. Join the Big East: this is a possible option. The Big East is a respectable basketball conference. But definitely one or two notches down compared to the ACC and I actually believe ND needs/wants some football alliance.
3. Join the Big 12: this used to be the best alternative for ND. This is still a possible option. But with OU/UT gone, the Big 12 would be closer to G than to P. Do you believe ND will join a G conference? By the way, this also applies to FSU/Clemson. I don’t think they can make a bluff about joining the Big 12 anymore. Therefore, contrary to what the media says, I think the football schools’ political position would become weaker within the league.
4. Join the BIG/SEC: this means the end of the football independence.
5. Accept the ACC’s request: this is the best outcome for the ACC and maybe the best outcome for ND as well.
Should the ACC do this?
If we tried to force ND hand in the next 15 years they would point to the contract we signed and say sorry we don't have to do any thing.
If you give them an ultimatum in 2036.... How about we worry about that then? There may not be an NCAA then and the P4 may be a semi-pro to pro league then. There are bigger things to worry about than what ND might do in 15 years to say nothing about the divided state of the nation.
FSU and Clemson going to the B12 was not a bluff. If UConn had been added FSU and Clemson would be in the B12 today.
I don’t know. The removal of a member is different from the breach of the GOR. I believe a seperate agreement governs that. Even if ND has to stay until 2036, the ACC should initiate the discussion before 2035 IMO.
(08-20-2021 04:45 PM)random asian guy Wrote: [ -> ]This is a hypothetical but serious question. Since we’ve already talked many times about the carrots that the ACC can give to ND, maybe it’s fair to discuss the sticks.
IMO, for ND the biggest implication of UT/OU leaving the Big 12 might be ND will have one less alternative in case the relation with the ACC gets sour. IIRC, back in 2012, both ACC and Big 12 were courting ND, willing to give ND a partial deal. In the end, ND chose the ACC, but if the Big 12 had not been a serious competitor, the ACC may have gotten a better deal, for example, six conference games instead of five games.
So let’s say the ACC gives an ultimarium to ND:
* Join the ESPN/ACCN as part of the ACC instead of having its own media deal and play six conference games (and particiapte the ACC championship race if it desires to do so) or
*Leave (in 2025 if legally possible; otherwise in 2036)
In return, the ESPN should/would boost the payout to the ACC. From this perspective, the 6th game is kinda optional but getting ND’s media coverage is a must for the ACC. ND is probably dead set on remaining independent but joining the ESPN and playing one more ACC game *might* be accpetbale. And if you think about it, this is actually the best time to make a credible threat. There are many more reasonable candidates now in case ND decides to leave the ACC and the ACC wants to add two more schools including TCU/Kansas, TCU/Ok State, and WVU/Cincy pairs.
Now, what would ND do? The choices are:
1. Become completely independent: Maybe the die hard ND traditionalists like this option but I would rule out this option because ND wants/needs a conference affiliation for basketballs and Olympic sports.
2. Join the Big East: this is a possible option. The Big East is a respectable basketball conference. But definitely one or two notches down compared to the ACC and I actually believe ND needs/wants some football alliance.
3. Join the Big 12: this used to be the best alternative for ND. This is still a possible option. But with OU/UT gone, the Big 12 would be closer to G than to P. Do you believe ND will join a G conference? By the way, this also applies to FSU/Clemson. I don’t think they can make a bluff about joining the Big 12 anymore. Therefore, contrary to what the media says, I think the football schools’ political position would become weaker within the league.
4. Join the BIG/SEC: this means the end of the football independence.
5. Accept the ACC’s request: this is the best outcome for the ACC and maybe the best outcome for ND as well.
Should the ACC do this?
As long as the Big East would take Notre Dame's Olympic sports they will remain independent. If the it was the ACC or the A-10 it might be a different conversation.
Historically, money hasn’t been the best carrot for ND but ND and the ACC would both stand to make more money if the Irish joined the ACC:
I’d propose splitting the T1 package in two—alternating 1st and 2nd picks each week of the season. If NBC and ESPN split the package, you get lots of great OTA coverage on NBC as well as the support of the almighty mouse.