Among the arguments with the current CFP arrangement are that it doesn't give half of the teams in FBS any chance at ever having a chance to play for a title, while the arguments against any kind of inclusion of a G5 champion has been that it's not fair that they don't have to go through the "gauntlet" that teams in the A5 do. So here's a potential way to address both of these:
Plan for an 8 team CFP that includes the champions of the A5 conferences, plus two additional at-large teams. Then, set up a separate tournament that includes the champions of the G5 conferences as well as 3 additional at-large teams. Imagine (using 2019, the last full season of NCAA football, and this year's dates) the following:
A5 champs:
ACC - Clemson
Big 12 - Oklahoma
B1G - Ohio State
Pac-12 - Oregon
SEC - LSU
Two "at-large" teams that make the final CFP (highest rated non champs)
Georgia (#5 in the final CFP poll)
Baylor (#7 in the final CFP poll)
G5 champs:
AAC - Memphis
CUSA - FAU
MAC - Miami
MWC - Boise State
Sun Belt - Appalachian State
Three additional "at-large" teams that make this play-in tournament:
Wisconsin (#8 in the final CFP poll)
Florida (#9 in the final CFP poll)
Penn State (#10 in the final CFP poll)
Games are played via seeding, but conference champions get home games over at-large teams.
This season, all of the conference championship games are played on December 4, which sets up the following play in tournament:
December 11
Wisconsin (#1 seed) at Miami (#8 seed)
Florida (#2 seed) at FAU (#7 seed)
Penn State (#3 seed) at Boise State (#6 seed)
Appalachian State (#5 seed) at Memphis (#4 seed)
Assuming the higher seeds win:
December 18
Wisconsin (#1 seed) at Memphis (#4 seed)
Penn State (#3 seed) at Florida (#2 seed)
December 25 (yes, I know it's Christmas)
Florida (#2 seed) at Wisconsin (#1 seed)
That sets up the CFP then to be the following 4 games on New Years Day:
#1 LSU vs. #8 Wisconsin
#2 Ohio State vs. #7 Baylor
#3 Clemson vs. #6 Oregon
#4 Oklahoma vs. #5 Georgia
It changes nothing for the top 7 teams, it makes it so that every team has a legitimate chance to play for the title, and nobody could legitimately say that the team that emerges from this play in tournament had it easier than any other team. Plus, it would be a gigantic money maker for the sport, and is a closer representation of what the NCAA tournament is in basketball.
The two biggest arguments against this that I can see are a) you're asking some players to play up to 20 games (a team that plays at Hawaii playing 13 regular season games, plus a conference championship game, plus 3 play in games plus 3 games in the CFP) is asking quite a lot. And b) you would pretty much kill the bowls at this point in my opinion.
USFFan
That’s a lot of extra games for the team who advanced to the 8-team playoff. At that point, you might as well do a 16 team playoff with 10 autobids.
Personally, I like it (much more so than an NCAA Tournament-style playoff where every conference gets an auto-bid), but definitely believe the length of this playoff plus the killing of the bowls would realistically make this impossible to implement.
In terms of providing some more access (but not total open access), I’d personally allow the 2 best G5 champs play each other on Championship Weekend and the winner gets a playoff spot. Note that this would require the G5 leagues to determine their champs by Thanksgiving weekend (and possibly give up their own conference championship games). The G5 can split all of the TV and ticket revenue from that “G5 Championship” game. While this doesn’t provide total access to each G5 champ, it at least opens up more chances for each G5 league and keeps more teams in the playoff hunt for longer into the season. (I’m a very big believer that the playoff *race* is actually much more important to keeping the maximum number of fans engaged compared to who actually ends up making the playoff.)
(04-22-2021 12:41 PM)Frank the Tank Wrote: [ -> ]Personally, I like it (much more so than an NCAA Tournament-style playoff where every conference gets an auto-bid), but definitely believe the length of this playoff plus the killing of the bowls would realistically make this impossible to implement.
In terms of providing some more access (but not total open access), I’d personally allow the 2 best G5 champs play each other on Championship Weekend and the winner gets a playoff spot. Note that this would require the G5 leagues to determine their champs by Thanksgiving weekend (and possibly give up their own conference championship games). The G5 can split all of the TV and ticket revenue from that “G5 Championship” game. While this doesn’t provide total access to each G5 champ, it at least opens up more chances for each G5 league and keeps more teams in the playoff hunt for longer into the season. (I’m a very big believer that the playoff *race* is actually much more important to keeping the maximum number of fans engaged compared to who actually ends up making the playoff.)
Exactly! Which is one reason why I think the 5-1-2 is such a good system. It efficiently manages to fully engage 65 fan bases (almost half of the FBS teams) with just 1 slot. It makes every P5 conference race important. It adds context to even G5 conference races. And finally, it keeps the "beauty contest" debate factor alive in the wild card and G5 champ selection process---lol---so the "beauty contest" purist still have something to argue about all year.
(04-22-2021 12:41 PM)Frank the Tank Wrote: [ -> ]Personally, I like it (much more so than an NCAA Tournament-style playoff where every conference gets an auto-bid), but definitely believe the length of this playoff plus the killing of the bowls would realistically make this impossible to implement.
In terms of providing some more access (but not total open access), I’d personally allow the 2 best G5 champs play each other on Championship Weekend and the winner gets a playoff spot. Note that this would require the G5 leagues to determine their champs by Thanksgiving weekend (and possibly give up their own conference championship games). The G5 can split all of the TV and ticket revenue from that “G5 Championship” game. While this doesn’t provide total access to each G5 champ, it at least opens up more chances for each G5 league and keeps more teams in the playoff hunt for longer into the season. (I’m a very big believer that the playoff *race* is actually much more important to keeping the maximum number of fans engaged compared to who actually ends up making the playoff.)
This.
It might not ever be implemented by the powers-that-be, but 8 teams with autobids for P5 champs plus the winner of that G5 champs game would be a significant step forward from 4 teams.
(04-22-2021 12:41 PM)Frank the Tank Wrote: [ -> ]Personally, I like it (much more so than an NCAA Tournament-style playoff where every conference gets an auto-bid), but definitely believe the length of this playoff plus the killing of the bowls would realistically make this impossible to implement.
In terms of providing some more access (but not total open access), I’d personally allow the 2 best G5 champs play each other on Championship Weekend and the winner gets a playoff spot. Note that this would require the G5 leagues to determine their champs by Thanksgiving weekend (and possibly give up their own conference championship games). The G5 can split all of the TV and ticket revenue from that “G5 Championship” game. While this doesn’t provide total access to each G5 champ, it at least opens up more chances for each G5 league and keeps more teams in the playoff hunt for longer into the season. (I’m a very big believer that the playoff *race* is actually much more important to keeping the maximum number of fans engaged compared to who actually ends up making the playoff.)
That assumes an 8 team playoff. What if the two highest ranked P5 champs get a bye to the New Year's semifinal, while the other three P5 champs and the emergent G5 champ play the quarterfinal round the week after P5 championship week?
That's 7 conference champions with a path to a national championship. No at large teams.
5 + 2 + 1 is probably the way forward.
I think this would have the effect of balancing the level of play in P5 as this would open up as many as ten schools to compete with the "big 3" as a destinations for the top talent, since it would double the number of schools that get in. To a large extent it is the Alabama-Clemson-Ohio State and one lucky other who get in (sometimes two when one of the Big 3 has an off year). This would mean 5 others get in.
College Basketball has a large tournament where half the P5 and Big East schools get in, and no surprise the talent is more balanced among those conferences because the the majority of schools have a good chance of making the tournament. It is in the one bid conferences where we see the talent congregate toward one and sometimes a second school only. CFB has effectively created the one bid league phenomena for the whole of P5, hence the talent drifts to the "Big 3."
The other benefits would be the importance of the P5 CCGs, as they would now matter. I think that would be a nice revenue boost for the conferences and also increase the excitement, just like we see with conference tournaments in basketball.
For the G5, I like the play-in idea. It would likely mean that the CCGs for the G5 would lose importance, not that they have much now, as most years the top American and Mountain West schools (though sometimes somebody else will be ranked above one of those) will have to be passed on their CCG to instead do a Play-In Bowl in early December. Their CCGs would be worth less than they are now. But I suspect the G5 Play-In game would be worth more money that their CCGs anyway.
I still think Frank the Tank is correct that you simply move the semi-finals on Campus on the 2nd weekend of January. With the Super Bowl moving back a week to accommodate a 17th NFL game, that opens a window for the CCG to move back a week.
It could definitely work.
What would you do if a G5 team is in the top-7?
This isn't theoretical. It's happened 5 times in the past 12 years:
2009 - MWC champ TCU was #4 and WAC champ Boise was #6
2010 - MWC champ TCU was #3
2018 - AAC champ UCF was #7 in the AP and coach's polls
2020 - AAC champ Cincinnati was #6 in the AP and coach's polls
(04-22-2021 01:54 PM)Captain Bearcat Wrote: [ -> ]What would you do if a G5 team is in the top-7?
This isn't theoretical. It's happened 5 times in the past 12 years:
2009 - MWC champ TCU was #4 and WAC champ Boise was #6
2010 - MWC champ TCU was #3
2018 - AAC champ UCF was #7 in the AP and coach's polls
2020 - AAC champ Cincinnati was #6 in the AP and coach's polls
TCU is now a P5 school, removing that threat.
The CFP rankings are the only one that counts.
2018 season UCF was ranked #8. However Washington was ranked #9 and were the Pac-12 Champions, so ahead of them
2020 season Cincy was ranked #8. However again the Pac-12 Champion would have vaulted ahead of them.
In the Playoff era no G5 has qualified in the top 7. Also the top rankings are after the CCG data point. In reality the coaches and schools will opt to bypass the CCG and compete in the G5 Play-In game, which in effect is the same level as a P5 CCG likely to get serious TV money, and have a 50-50 shot of getting in (assuming all is equal) rather than leave their fate up to the CFP for an at-large bid.
It's pretty much a non issue.
(04-22-2021 01:54 PM)Captain Bearcat Wrote: [ -> ]What would you do if a G5 team is in the top-7?
Nothing different. Just like you would do nothing different if a P5 champ is ranked really high. If Ohio State wins the Big Ten and is ranked #2, they get the Big Ten's autobid; they don't take an at-large bid and give the Big Ten's autobid to another team.
My plan, if we cannot have straight 8 and must have autobids:
If top G5 is ranked in top 8, like UCF in 2018 or Cincy last year, then proceed with 8 team playoff, period.
If not, then a 4-team play-in consisting of top 2 G5 champs and the #8 and #9 P5 teams. G5 vs P5 pairings.
(04-22-2021 01:54 PM)Captain Bearcat Wrote: [ -> ]What would you do if a G5 team is in the top-7?
This isn't theoretical. It's happened 5 times in the past 12 years:
2009 - MWC champ TCU was #4 and WAC champ Boise was #6
2010 - MWC champ TCU was #3
2018 - AAC champ UCF was #7 in the AP and coach's polls
2020 - AAC champ Cincinnati was #6 in the AP and coach's polls
I guess I would say that if a G5 team was in the top 7 and thus captured an at-large bid to the CFP, then their spot in the play in would go to the next highest qualified at-large team. It still benefits the G5 team (and league) by getting them further into the tournament, and opens up a spot for the next most deserving team. If any of those at-large teams were G5 (or other independent teams), they'd certainly be able to fill those spots.
USFFan
(04-22-2021 12:41 PM)Frank the Tank Wrote: [ -> ]Personally, I like it (much more so than an NCAA Tournament-style playoff where every conference gets an auto-bid), but definitely believe the length of this playoff plus the killing of the bowls would realistically make this impossible to implement.
In terms of providing some more access (but not total open access), I’d personally allow the 2 best G5 champs play each other on Championship Weekend and the winner gets a playoff spot. Note that this would require the G5 leagues to determine their champs by Thanksgiving weekend (and possibly give up their own conference championship games). The G5 can split all of the TV and ticket revenue from that “G5 Championship” game. While this doesn’t provide total access to each G5 champ, it at least opens up more chances for each G5 league and keeps more teams in the playoff hunt for longer into the season. (I’m a very big believer that the playoff *race* is actually much more important to keeping the maximum number of fans engaged compared to who actually ends up making the playoff.)
Even this is far better than what currently exists, though it still still doesn't give all teams quite the level of full control over their fate. In the exceedingly unlikely instance where, say, the AAC, MWC and CUSA champs all went undefeated, one of those champs would be left out.
Also, I personally would be fine with doing away with the championship games (or, I suppose, moving them up a week) if need be.
USFFan
Just let the networks decide. They've already sullied college football by deciding who's P5 and who isn't. The national champion doesn't necessarily need to be the best team, it just has to be a P5 team, right?
Until you had P5 in the G5 bracket I was on board. I GENERALLY like the idea, BUT my tweak:
P5 champs
3 CCG losers
G5 Champs
3 CCG losers
(04-22-2021 12:41 PM)Frank the Tank Wrote: [ -> ]Personally, I like it (much more so than an NCAA Tournament-style playoff where every conference gets an auto-bid), but definitely believe the length of this playoff plus the killing of the bowls would realistically make this impossible to implement.
In terms of providing some more access (but not total open access), I’d personally allow the 2 best G5 champs play each other on Championship Weekend and the winner gets a playoff spot. Note that this would require the G5 leagues to determine their champs by Thanksgiving weekend (and possibly give up their own conference championship games). The G5 can split all of the TV and ticket revenue from that “G5 Championship” game. While this doesn’t provide total access to each G5 champ, it at least opens up more chances for each G5 league and keeps more teams in the playoff hunt for longer into the season. (I’m a very big believer that the playoff *race* is actually much more important to keeping the maximum number of fans engaged compared to who actually ends up making the playoff.)
8-team CFP and put the G5 Championship Game the Saturday before Christmas and also stage two Wild Card/at large Play-In Games that same weekend.
This way, you expand G5 and non-champ access a little but still give an automatic path to the NY6 Bowls to the P5 champs. And, allow everyone to benefit from the CCGs.
2020 Example:
7-seed game (G5 Champ): #8 Cincinnati v. #12 Coastal Carolina
6-seed game(Wild Card2): #5 Texas A&M v. #7 Florida
5-seed game(Wild Card1): #4 Notre Dame v. #9 Georgia
SUGAR: (1)#1 Alabama v. (8)#17 USC
ORANGE: (2)#2 Clemson v. (7)G5 Champ
ROSE: (3)#3 Ohio State v. (6)Wild Card2
COTTON: (4)#6 Oklahoma v. (5)Wild Card1
(04-22-2021 01:54 PM)Captain Bearcat Wrote: [ -> ]What would you do if a G5 team is in the top-7?
This isn't theoretical. It's happened 5 times in the past 12 years:
2009 - MWC champ TCU was #4 and WAC champ Boise was #6
2010 - MWC champ TCU was #3
2018 - AAC champ UCF was #7 in the AP and coach's polls
2020 - AAC champ Cincinnati was #6 in the AP and coach's polls
Any top 8 ranked G5 team is eliminated and sent to the Cure Bowl to play Liberty.
Have said it in most of these threads, the G5 would rather roll the dice that their champ is #1 than play-off for that last spot. The TV money isn’t there for G5 play-ins and the schools don’t want to prep for yet another game (or 3!?!).
The only “play-in” I can see is a 13th game exemption for the top two teams NOT in a CCG; winner takes 1 of the 2 at large spots. Generally you’ll have big names (the best 2 division runner-ups) who might otherwise be bumped in favor of a CCG loser.
(04-22-2021 12:41 PM)Frank the Tank Wrote: [ -> ]In terms of providing some more access (but not total open access), I’d personally allow the 2 best G5 champs play each other on Championship Weekend and the winner gets a playoff spot. Note that this would require the G5 leagues to determine their champs by Thanksgiving weekend (and possibly give up their own conference championship games).
If there was an A5/Go5 post Christmas bowl game with reasonable payout that the loser of the game went into, then the G5 play in game could be the weekend AFTER Championship weekend, the same day as the current Army-Navy.
The Money will be there for a G5 play-in. It will in effect be the 6th play-in game, along with the SEC, B1G, P12, B12 and ACC CCGs.
I agree the week of the Army-Navy game, the week after the CCGs. The schools would need a little more time due to selection process and also preparing for the game.
I would assume the schools like UConn, BYU and Liberty would be eligible as they are not members of the P5.
One other thing, a decent Bowl tie-in for the loser of the Play-In is required. With a G5 slot in the Playoff there would no longer be a need for a G5 access Bowl. So it'll have be something other than a NY6 slot.