CSNbbs

https://twitter.com/CBBonFOX/status/1381...41/photo/1

I assume this is all time, not just since 1985 so teams that made it when there were only four teams count. There are 16 teams out of 76 major conference teams (15 ACC, 14 Big Ten, 14 SEC, 11 Big East, 12 Pac 12, 10 Big 12).

The question is which is most likely to break through and I would guess of the group Alabama. Of the group I think Xavier is the most accomplished.

(04-11-2021 06:31 PM)schmolik Wrote: [ -> ]https://twitter.com/CBBonFOX/status/1381...41/photo/1

I assume this is all time, not just since 1985 so teams that made it when there were only four teams count. There are 16 teams out of 76 major conference teams (15 ACC, 14 Big Ten, 14 SEC, 11 Big East, 12 Pac 12, 10 Big 12).

The question is which is most likely to break through and I would guess of the group Alabama. Of the group I think Xavier is the most accomplished.

Xavier is the big surprise to me, they’ve been very good for long stretches of time so they should have made a final four at some point.

(04-11-2021 06:31 PM)schmolik Wrote: [ -> ]https://twitter.com/CBBonFOX/status/1381...41/photo/1

I assume this is all time, not just since 1985 so teams that made it when there were only four teams count. There are 16 teams out of 76 major conference teams (15 ACC, 14 Big Ten, 14 SEC, 11 Big East, 12 Pac 12, 10 Big 12).

The question is which is most likely to break through and I would guess of the group Alabama. Of the group I think Xavier is the most accomplished.

Agreed on both counts. As long as Nate Oats stays at Alabama, they have a chance to get there.

And Xavier has been good for a long time. You have to get lucky sometimes (injuries, tournament draw), and they haven't been lucky.

Beyond that list of 12 P6 programs to have never made a Final Four (and it pains me to see Vanderbilt on it), the best programs to have never made a Final Four could also include the following (I consider many of these major programs):

BYU: 1,826 wins all time

New Mexico

Missouri State: 1,703 wins

Illinois State: 1,655 wins

Akron: 1,648 wins

Tulsa

Murray State

Saint Mary's

UAB

Saint Louis

Evansville (a former NCAA DII power)

San Diego State

A few teams on the list are surprising. Missouri, Tennessee and Xavier have good basketball histories. I would not have guessed that the ACC has the most teams without a FF.

A lot of the teams on the list are obvious...Northwestern, Nebraska, Texas A&M, Ole Miss and TCU.

Creighton is my guess fot the next program to get their first FF.

(04-11-2021 09:37 PM)bill dazzle Wrote: [ -> ]Beyond that list of 12 P6 programs to have never made a Final Four (and it pains me to see Vanderbilt on it), the best programs to have never made a Final Four could also include the following (I consider many of these major programs):

BYU: 1,826 wins all time

New Mexico

Missouri State: 1,703 wins

Illinois State: 1,655 wins

Akron: 1,648 wins

Tulsa

Murray State

Saint Mary's

UAB

Saint Louis

Evansville (a former NCAA DII power)

San Diego State

BYU is almost always pretty good. When they're down, it's not for long. They just played in their 30th tournament.

New Mexico has had some good teams that haven't quite gotten over the hump. Their 1978 team was highly ranked, with the Sweet 16 and regional final on their home court. They were upset in the first round and didn't make it back to the Pit. They were soon put on probation. They've had some good teams since, but not enough to make noise in the tournament.

Missouri State, Illinois State, Akron, and Evansville have a bunch of wins, but a good portion of them were in Division II. They've all had some success in D-I, but haven't sniffed a Final Four.

Tulsa has had some strong teams that have done well in the tournament. Coaches such as Nolan Richardson, Tubby Smith, and Bill Self have coached there. Bill Self's 2000 team lost to North Carolina in the Elite Eight. That's as close as the Golden Hurricane have gotten to the holy grail.

Good list.

(04-11-2021 06:34 PM)MKPitt Wrote: [ -> ]

(04-11-2021 06:31 PM)schmolik Wrote: [ -> ]https://twitter.com/CBBonFOX/status/1381...41/photo/1

I assume this is all time, not just since 1985 so teams that made it when there were only four teams count. There are 16 teams out of 76 major conference teams (15 ACC, 14 Big Ten, 14 SEC, 11 Big East, 12 Pac 12, 10 Big 12).

The question is which is most likely to break through and I would guess of the group Alabama. Of the group I think Xavier is the most accomplished.

Xavier is the big surprise to me, they’ve been very good for long stretches of time so they should have made a final four at some point.

I don’t think Xavier has been considered a major program for very long. They were a Horizon (back when it was the Midwestern Collegiate) member until an A10 invite in the 90’s. They had some great runs before the A10, but the best they were rewarded was a six seed under Pete Gillen

Wahoo: Creighton was the one school from the link that surprised me, and I agree they're the net to get off the list.

Boston College, Missouri, and Tennessee are the only surprises to me.

One surprise is that Penn State made a Final Four. I had to look it up and it was 1954. Another that comes to mind is Colorado, but they might have an ancient national title. Teams out west have a lot of surprising ancient history.

(04-11-2021 09:37 PM)Wahoowa84 Wrote: [ -> ]A few teams on the list are surprising. Missouri, Tennessee and Xavier have good basketball histories. I would not have guessed that the ACC has the most teams without a FF.

A lot of the teams on the list are obvious...Northwestern, Nebraska, Texas A&M, Ole Miss and TCU.

Creighton is my guess fot the next program to get their first FF.

SEC had 6, unless I'm reading the logos incorrectly

I’m most shocked by Missouri and Vandy. Xavier seemed to usually be good for a tournament bid in the A10 when they were in it, like Temple, but, that didn’t mean they were the best thing coming out of the league. I would put my chips on Missouri and Xavier. Creighton and probably one of the other SEC schools (Bama or Tennessee) next up. Vandy...doesn’t look good when the school seems to wage war on athletic spending and commitments.

Even a lot of FSU fans don’t know that FSU played in the national championship game in 1972 against UCLA. What surprises people even more is the Jacksonville University also played in the championship game around that time.

Creighton just made the Sweet 16 this season for the first time in the 64+ team era. And we don't know the long term effects of the McDermott comments.

(04-11-2021 11:27 PM)esayem Wrote: [ -> ]One surprise is that Penn State made a Final Four. I had to look it up and it was 1954. Another that comes to mind is Colorado, but they might have an ancient national title. Teams out west have a lot of surprising ancient history.

Yeah, a lot of the schools that actually "made a Final Four" are questionable. Then again, Penn State did have to win three games in 1954 to get to the Final Four, that's pretty close to 2021 standards. Of course, those were before the seeding days, they could have been three lousy teams.

Here's another issue in 1954. They only allowed one team per conference. Penn State (and Notre Dame, who Penn State beat in the regional final) were independents. The second best teams in the ACC, Big Ten, SEC, etc. could have been better than Penn State and Notre Dame but they don't even make the tournament while Penn State and Notre Dame can get in without restriction (they were just competing with other independents for the available "at large" bids).

Schools that made a Final Four since 1985:
ACC (6 of 15): Virginia, North Carolina, Syracuse, Duke, Louisville, Georgia Tech
Big East (8 of 11): Villanova, Connecticut, Butler, Georgetown, Marquette, Seton Hall, Providence, St. John's
Big Ten (8 of 14): Michigan State, Michigan, Wisconsin, Ohio State, Illinois, Maryland, Indiana, Minnesota
Big 12 (7 of 10): Baylor, Texas Tech, Kansas, Oklahoma, West Virginia, Oklahoma State, Texas
Pac 12 (5 of 12): UCLA, Oregon, Arizona, Utah, Stanford
SEC (6 of 14): Auburn, South Carolina, Kentucky, Florida, Mississippi State, Arkansas

Total: 40 of 76

The Big East and Big Ten have the most and the Pac 12 the least. By percentage, the Big East is the best and surprisingly the ACC is the worst. On the other hand, the ACC has Duke with 5 national championships and UNC with 4 since 1985.

Teams with 2 or more Final Fours since 1985 (to throw out the fluke Final Fours)

ACC (5 of 15): North Carolina, Syracuse, Duke, Louisville, Georgia Tech
Big East (3 of 11): Villanova, Connecticut, Georgetown
Big 12 (3 of 10): Kansas, Oklahoma, Oklahoma State
Big Ten (7 of 14): Michigan State, Michigan, Wisconsin, Ohio State, Illinois, Maryland, Indiana
Pac 12 (2 of 12): UCLA, Arizona
SEC (4 of 14): Kentucky, Florida, LSU, Arkansas

Proud my Illini made this list (1989 and 2005)! Half of the Big Ten made at least two Final Fours. No conference is even close. One third of the ACC has which is still pretty good.

(04-12-2021 06:17 AM)schmolik Wrote: [ -> ]Creighton just made the Sweet 16 this season for the first time in the 64+ team era. And we don't know the long term effects of the McDermott comments.

(04-11-2021 11:27 PM)esayem Wrote: [ -> ]One surprise is that Penn State made a Final Four. I had to look it up and it was 1954. Another that comes to mind is Colorado, but they might have an ancient national title. Teams out west have a lot of surprising ancient history.

Yeah, a lot of the schools that actually "made a Final Four" are questionable. Then again, Penn State did have to win three games in 1954 to get to the Final Four, that's pretty close to 2021 standards. Of course, those were before the seeding days, they could have been three lousy teams.

Here's another issue in 1954. They only allowed one team per conference. Penn State (and Notre Dame, who Penn State beat in the regional final) were independents. The second best teams in the ACC, Big Ten, SEC, etc. could have been better than Penn State and Notre Dame but they don't even make the tournament while Penn State and Notre Dame can get in without restriction (they were just competing with other independents for the available "at large" bids).

Schools that made a Final Four since 1985:
ACC (6 of 15): Virginia, North Carolina, Syracuse, Duke, Louisville, Georgia Tech
Big East (8 of 11): Villanova, Connecticut, Butler, Georgetown, Marquette, Seton Hall, Providence, St. John's
Big Ten (8 of 14): Michigan State, Michigan, Wisconsin, Ohio State, Illinois, Maryland, Indiana, Minnesota
Big 12 (7 of 10): Baylor, Texas Tech, Kansas, Oklahoma, West Virginia, Oklahoma State, Texas
Pac 12 (5 of 12): UCLA, Oregon, Arizona, Utah, Stanford
SEC (6 of 14): Auburn, South Carolina, Kentucky, Florida, Mississippi State, Arkansas

Total: 40 of 76

The Big East and Big Ten have the most and the Pac 12 the least. By percentage, the Big East is the best and surprisingly the ACC is the worst. On the other hand, the ACC has Duke with 5 national championships and UNC with 4 since 1985.

Teams with 2 or more Final Fours since 1985 (to throw out the fluke Final Fours)

ACC (5 of 15): North Carolina, Syracuse, Duke, Louisville, Georgia Tech
Big East (3 of 11): Villanova, Connecticut, Georgetown
Big 12 (3 of 10): Kansas, Oklahoma, Oklahoma State
Big Ten (7 of 14): Michigan State, Michigan, Wisconsin, Ohio State, Illinois, Maryland, Indiana
Pac 12 (2 of 12): UCLA, Arizona
SEC (4 of 14): Kentucky, Florida, LSU, Arkansas

Proud my Illini made this list (1989 and 2005)! Half of the Big Ten made at least two Final Fours. No conference is even close. One third of the ACC has which is still pretty good.

Notre Dame made the Final Four in 1978.

They began the season ranked #4 in the country and went 23-8.

That team had future NBA players Orlando Woolridge, Tracy Jackson, Bill Hanzlik, Bill Laimbeer, Kelly Tripucka.

It beat #3 DePaul to get to the Final Four.

It lost to #7 Duke in the semifinals by 4 points and #5 Arkansas in the Consolation Game by 2 points.

ND was definitely one of the best teams in the country that year.

It beat #1 Marquette, #3 UCLA and #5 UCLA (the teams played twice a year then) and #3 DePaul.

It lost at #2 Indiana by one point. It lost a close game at #1 Kentucky.

It played a hell of a schedule and was a national power at the time.

There was nothing "questionable" at all about that team and its Final Four finish.

Just because something is not "recent" for younger people doesn't make the achievement less impressive.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1977%E2%80...tball_team

I have vague memories of watching McLeod era ND on NBC.

Well I wish I was "younger". I'm 47 and will turn 48 this week:(

We can go a little bit further back to the NCAA Tournament and see how tournaments pre 1985 were run.

Before 1975, there was only one team per conference. Anything before that has to be considered with a grain of salt. This year's Baylor team wouldn't have won the national championship under those rules (assuming Baylor played in the Big 12 Tournament to win and not "tanked" knowing they were a #1 seed already).

1978 (Notre Dame's Final Four year) was the first tournament they had a modified "seeding" system where they had teams seeded automatic qualifiers and at large separated. In 1979, they went to full seeds. In 1978, Notre Dame was a "#2 at large team". The 1978 tournament had just 32 teams so all teams only had to win three games. They went to 40 in 1979, 48 from 1980-1982, 52 in 1983, and 53 in 1984. If you were a #1 seed between 1979-1984, you only played three games to win a national championship but your fourth game would have been vs. a #16 seed and only one #16 seed lost their first game so they were probably more legit than older champions that only played three games. In 1979, Michigan State was a #2 seed. Had there been 64 teams that year, they would have played a #15 in the first round and 95% likely they would have won it (although don't tell 2021 Ohio State that). Before seeding, who knows how good those three teams were (on the other hand, those three teams could have all been "#1 seeds", the problem is we don't know)?

1979-1984 we can definitely compare to the 1985-2021 era. 1975-1978 is a bit iffy without seeds (1978 the seeds are up in the air). Pre 1975 forget it, they're not the same, especially if you have to win four or fewer games to win the national championship.

(04-12-2021 06:17 AM)schmolik Wrote: [ -> ]Creighton just made the Sweet 16 this season for the first time in the 64+ team era. And we don't know the long term effects of the McDermott comments.

(04-11-2021 11:27 PM)esayem Wrote: [ -> ]One surprise is that Penn State made a Final Four. I had to look it up and it was 1954. Another that comes to mind is Colorado, but they might have an ancient national title. Teams out west have a lot of surprising ancient history.

Yeah, a lot of the schools that actually "made a Final Four" are questionable. Then again, Penn State did have to win three games in 1954 to get to the Final Four, that's pretty close to 2021 standards. Of course, those were before the seeding days, they could have been three lousy teams.

Here's another issue in 1954. They only allowed one team per conference. Penn State (and Notre Dame, who Penn State beat in the regional final) were independents. The second best teams in the ACC, Big Ten, SEC, etc. could have been better than Penn State and Notre Dame but they don't even make the tournament while Penn State and Notre Dame can get in without restriction (they were just competing with other independents for the available "at large" bids).

Schools that made a Final Four since 1985:
ACC (6 of 15): Virginia, North Carolina, Syracuse, Duke, Louisville, Georgia Tech
Big East (8 of 11): Villanova, Connecticut, Butler, Georgetown, Marquette, Seton Hall, Providence, St. John's
Big Ten (8 of 14): Michigan State, Michigan, Wisconsin, Ohio State, Illinois, Maryland, Indiana, Minnesota
Big 12 (7 of 10): Baylor, Texas Tech, Kansas, Oklahoma, West Virginia, Oklahoma State, Texas
Pac 12 (5 of 12): UCLA, Oregon, Arizona, Utah, Stanford
SEC (6 of 14): Auburn, South Carolina, Kentucky, Florida, Mississippi State, Arkansas

Total: 40 of 76

The Big East and Big Ten have the most and the Pac 12 the least. By percentage, the Big East is the best and surprisingly the ACC is the worst. On the other hand, the ACC has Duke with 5 national championships and UNC with 4 since 1985.

Teams with 2 or more Final Fours since 1985 (to throw out the fluke Final Fours)

ACC (5 of 15): North Carolina, Syracuse, Duke, Louisville, Georgia Tech
Big East (3 of 11): Villanova, Connecticut, Georgetown
Big 12 (3 of 10): Kansas, Oklahoma, Oklahoma State
Big Ten (7 of 14): Michigan State, Michigan, Wisconsin, Ohio State, Illinois, Maryland, Indiana
Pac 12 (2 of 12): UCLA, Arizona
SEC (4 of 14): Kentucky, Florida, LSU, Arkansas

Proud my Illini made this list (1989 and 2005)! Half of the Big Ten made at least two Final Fours. No conference is even close. One third of the ACC has which is still pretty good.

Memphis has made two Final Fours since 1985 (in 1985 and 2008), though both were later "vacated."

(04-11-2021 10:54 PM)johnintx Wrote: [ -> ]

(04-11-2021 09:37 PM)bill dazzle Wrote: [ -> ]Beyond that list of 12 P6 programs to have never made a Final Four (and it pains me to see Vanderbilt on it), the best programs to have never made a Final Four could also include the following (I consider many of these major programs):

BYU: 1,826 wins all time

New Mexico

Missouri State: 1,703 wins

Illinois State: 1,655 wins

Akron: 1,648 wins

Tulsa

Murray State

Saint Mary's

UAB

Saint Louis

Evansville (a former NCAA DII power)

San Diego State

BYU is almost always pretty good. When they're down, it's not for long. They just played in their 30th tournament.

New Mexico has had some good teams that haven't quite gotten over the hump. Their 1978 team was highly ranked, with the Sweet 16 and regional final on their home court. They were upset in the first round and didn't make it back to the Pit. They were soon put on probation. They've had some good teams since, but not enough to make noise in the tournament.

Missouri State, Illinois State, Akron, and Evansville have a bunch of wins, but a good portion of them were in Division II. They've all had some success in D-I, but haven't sniffed a Final Four.

Tulsa has had some strong teams that have done well in the tournament. Coaches such as Nolan Richardson, Tubby Smith, and Bill Self have coached there. Bill Self's 2000 team lost to North Carolina in the Elite Eight. That's as close as the Golden Hurricane have gotten to the holy grail.

Good list.

Tulsa has a better program and history than many people realize. Lots of strong coaches, very good fan base, the Elite Eight appearance you note, etc.

It's a Top 80 or so all-time program nationally.

From Wikipedia:

In 2005, Street & Smith's named the University of Tulsa as the 59th best college basketball program of all time.

(04-12-2021 06:17 AM)schmolik Wrote: [ -> ]Creighton just made the Sweet 16 this season for the first time in the 64+ team era. And we don't know the long term effects of the McDermott comments.

(04-11-2021 11:27 PM)esayem Wrote: [ -> ]One surprise is that Penn State made a Final Four. I had to look it up and it was 1954. Another that comes to mind is Colorado, but they might have an ancient national title. Teams out west have a lot of surprising ancient history.

Yeah, a lot of the schools that actually "made a Final Four" are questionable. Then again, Penn State did have to win three games in 1954 to get to the Final Four, that's pretty close to 2021 standards. Of course, those were before the seeding days, they could have been three lousy teams.

Here's another issue in 1954. They only allowed one team per conference. Penn State (and Notre Dame, who Penn State beat in the regional final) were independents. The second best teams in the ACC, Big Ten, SEC, etc. could have been better than Penn State and Notre Dame but they don't even make the tournament while Penn State and Notre Dame can get in without restriction (they were just competing with other independents for the available "at large" bids).

Schools that made a Final Four since 1985:
ACC (6 of 15): Virginia, North Carolina, Syracuse, Duke, Louisville, Georgia Tech
Big East (8 of 11): Villanova, Connecticut, Butler, Georgetown, Marquette, Seton Hall, Providence, St. John's
Big Ten (8 of 14): Michigan State, Michigan, Wisconsin, Ohio State, Illinois, Maryland, Indiana, Minnesota
Big 12 (7 of 10): Baylor, Texas Tech, Kansas, Oklahoma, West Virginia, Oklahoma State, Texas
Pac 12 (5 of 12): UCLA, Oregon, Arizona, Utah, Stanford
SEC (6 of 14): Auburn, South Carolina, Kentucky, Florida, Mississippi State, Arkansas

Total: 40 of 76

The Big East and Big Ten have the most and the Pac 12 the least. By percentage, the Big East is the best and surprisingly the ACC is the worst. On the other hand, the ACC has Duke with 5 national championships and UNC with 4 since 1985.

Teams with 2 or more Final Fours since 1985 (to throw out the fluke Final Fours)

ACC (5 of 15): North Carolina, Syracuse, Duke, Louisville, Georgia Tech
Big East (3 of 11): Villanova, Connecticut, Georgetown
Big 12 (3 of 10): Kansas, Oklahoma, Oklahoma State
Big Ten (7 of 14): Michigan State, Michigan, Wisconsin, Ohio State, Illinois, Maryland, Indiana
Pac 12 (2 of 12): UCLA, Arizona
SEC (4 of 14): Kentucky, Florida, LSU, Arkansas

Proud my Illini made this list (1989 and 2005)! Half of the Big Ten made at least two Final Fours. No conference is even close. One third of the ACC has which is still pretty good.

It’s disappointing that UVA doesn’t make the 1985 cut-off criteria. Tony Bennett has had four teams seeded #1 during the past eight years. Unfortunately, we’ve had a disproportionate share of early tournament disasters (plus the one miracle run with three consecutive unforgettable finishes).

The earlier 1980s was a golden era for the Cavaliers. The 1981 team made the FF with Sampson, Lamp and Raker; then the 1984 team also made the FF with Carlisle, Wilson and Polynice.

Statistically, UVA has been a tournament underachiever. Seven times seeded as a #1. An additional nine years seeded as #2-#5. Yet only three Final Four appearances.