If the SEC were to invite NC State to join them, and no ACC schools opposed the move, would the Pack accept the invitation? And if they said yes, who would the ACC target to replace them?
(03-25-2021 01:21 PM)ken d Wrote: [ -> ]If the SEC were to invite NC State to join them, and no ACC schools opposed the move, would the Pack accept the invitation? And if they said yes, who would the ACC target to replace them?
Your premise is unrealistic since all the other ACC schools would oppose such a move. I’m no NCSU alum but I’d guess the vast majority of alums would oppose this as would the NC General Assembly. It’s a non-starter. It wouldn’t solve any real problem NCSU has.
(03-25-2021 02:32 PM)Hallcity Wrote: [ -> ] (03-25-2021 01:21 PM)ken d Wrote: [ -> ]If the SEC were to invite NC State to join them, and no ACC schools opposed the move, would the Pack accept the invitation? And if they said yes, who would the ACC target to replace them?
Your premise is unrealistic since all the other ACC schools would oppose such a move. I’m no NCSU alum but I’d guess the vast majority of alums would oppose this as would the NC General Assembly. It’s a non-starter. It wouldn’t solve any real problem NCSU has.
Well of course you think the alums would oppose this as it would be something that folks at Duke did not want.
Almost all of the athletically inclined alums would support such a move. It would represent an amicable divorce from UNC, but most importantly it would represent the attaining of some distance from a behinds the scenes nare-do-well in the neighborhood. YOU
More practically NC State can't compete in the SEC because you will never get NC State powers that be to the point that they will spend ANYTHING to compete in football. Academically NC State is modeled after Purdue and the university runs like a slightly smaller, heavy research, graduated oriented Big 10 school. Despite this academic leaning, the overall fan base remains very Southern Atlantic in nature.
A Big 10 east with say Penn State, MD, Rutgers, Ohio State, Indiana, Purdue, and Illinois would represent a return to playing MD and Penn State, the latter of which was a very popular game in the 60's, 70's, and early 80's. As the southernmost school in the Big 10, NC State would have certain advantages and NC State would be able to raise stadium capacity from 59K to 68-70K and keep it full.
(03-25-2021 02:32 PM)Hallcity Wrote: [ -> ] (03-25-2021 01:21 PM)ken d Wrote: [ -> ]If the SEC were to invite NC State to join them, and no ACC schools opposed the move, would the Pack accept the invitation? And if they said yes, who would the ACC target to replace them?
Your premise is unrealistic since all the other ACC schools would oppose such a move. I’m no NCSU alum but I’d guess the vast majority of alums would oppose this as would the NC General Assembly. It’s a non-starter. It wouldn’t solve any real problem NCSU has.
I didn't ask whether the premise was realistic. My interest is in finding out what NC State fans and administration would really want if there weren't any obstacles put in their way.
And, I doubt if you speak for all the other ACC schools on this or any matter. None of us do.
(03-25-2021 02:37 PM)Statefan Wrote: [ -> ] (03-25-2021 02:32 PM)Hallcity Wrote: [ -> ] (03-25-2021 01:21 PM)ken d Wrote: [ -> ]If the SEC were to invite NC State to join them, and no ACC schools opposed the move, would the Pack accept the invitation? And if they said yes, who would the ACC target to replace them?
Your premise is unrealistic since all the other ACC schools would oppose such a move. I’m no NCSU alum but I’d guess the vast majority of alums would oppose this as would the NC General Assembly. It’s a non-starter. It wouldn’t solve any real problem NCSU has.
Well of course you think the alums would oppose this as it would be something that folks at Duke did not want.
Almost all of the athletically inclined alums would support such a move. It would represent an amicable divorce from UNC, but most importantly it would represent the attaining of some distance from a behinds the scenes nare-do-well in the neighborhood. YOU
I don't know that I would characterize such a move as a
divorce from UNC. Like Georgia Tech, Clemson, Florida State and Kentucky do with their in-state rivals, I assume they (NCSU and UNC) would continue to play each other as often as they do now.
(03-25-2021 02:46 PM)ken d Wrote: [ -> ] (03-25-2021 02:32 PM)Hallcity Wrote: [ -> ] (03-25-2021 01:21 PM)ken d Wrote: [ -> ]If the SEC were to invite NC State to join them, and no ACC schools opposed the move, would the Pack accept the invitation? And if they said yes, who would the ACC target to replace them?
Your premise is unrealistic since all the other ACC schools would oppose such a move. I’m no NCSU alum but I’d guess the vast majority of alums would oppose this as would the NC General Assembly. It’s a non-starter. It wouldn’t solve any real problem NCSU has.
I didn't ask whether the premise was realistic. My interest is in finding out what NC State fans and administration would really want if there weren't any obstacles put in their way.
And, I doubt if you speak for all the other ACC schools on this or any matter. None of us do.
I'll speak for the rest of the ACC rather than listening to Duke disembler.
WF will say no. Duke will say no. UNC will say no. Clemson, FSU, and GT will not care as long as the exit of NC State is part of a P-5 trade of sorts. UVa and VT will stay out of it but will tacitly support UNC, WF, and Duke. The opinions of BC, Syracuse, and Louisville do not matter.
The ACC might not need a replacement for State.
(03-25-2021 02:54 PM)Statefan Wrote: [ -> ] (03-25-2021 02:46 PM)ken d Wrote: [ -> ] (03-25-2021 02:32 PM)Hallcity Wrote: [ -> ] (03-25-2021 01:21 PM)ken d Wrote: [ -> ]If the SEC were to invite NC State to join them, and no ACC schools opposed the move, would the Pack accept the invitation? And if they said yes, who would the ACC target to replace them?
Your premise is unrealistic since all the other ACC schools would oppose such a move. I’m no NCSU alum but I’d guess the vast majority of alums would oppose this as would the NC General Assembly. It’s a non-starter. It wouldn’t solve any real problem NCSU has.
I didn't ask whether the premise was realistic. My interest is in finding out what NC State fans and administration would really want if there weren't any obstacles put in their way.
And, I doubt if you speak for all the other ACC schools on this or any matter. None of us do.
I'll speak for the rest of the ACC rather than listening to Duke disembler.
WF will say no. Duke will say no. UNC will say no. Clemson, FSU, and GT will not care as long as the exit of NC State is part of a P-5 trade of sorts. UVa and VT will stay out of it but will tacitly support UNC, WF, and Duke. The opinions of BC, Syracuse, and Louisville do not matter.
The ACC might not need a replacement for State.
How would ESPN feel about it?
(03-25-2021 02:50 PM)ken d Wrote: [ -> ] (03-25-2021 02:37 PM)Statefan Wrote: [ -> ] (03-25-2021 02:32 PM)Hallcity Wrote: [ -> ] (03-25-2021 01:21 PM)ken d Wrote: [ -> ]If the SEC were to invite NC State to join them, and no ACC schools opposed the move, would the Pack accept the invitation? And if they said yes, who would the ACC target to replace them?
Your premise is unrealistic since all the other ACC schools would oppose such a move. I’m no NCSU alum but I’d guess the vast majority of alums would oppose this as would the NC General Assembly. It’s a non-starter. It wouldn’t solve any real problem NCSU has.
Well of course you think the alums would oppose this as it would be something that folks at Duke did not want.
Almost all of the athletically inclined alums would support such a move. It would represent an amicable divorce from UNC, but most importantly it would represent the attaining of some distance from a behinds the scenes nare-do-well in the neighborhood. YOU
I don't know that I would characterize such a move as a divorce from UNC. Like Georgia Tech, Clemson, Florida State and Kentucky do with their in-state rivals, I assume they (NCSU and UNC) would continue to play each other as often as they do now.
The governance model that yokes NC State to UNC is unlike VT, Clemson, FSU, or Louisville. In fact only Mississippi State is as "under the thumb" to another school as is NC State. Before NC A&M ever played UNC or Trinity, we played Wake Forest. In the Big 10 or SEC NC State no longer "needs" a game with anyone in the ACC, but likely would commit to an annual game only with WF since we have played them for the last 110 years.
(03-25-2021 02:58 PM)ken d Wrote: [ -> ] (03-25-2021 02:54 PM)Statefan Wrote: [ -> ] (03-25-2021 02:46 PM)ken d Wrote: [ -> ] (03-25-2021 02:32 PM)Hallcity Wrote: [ -> ] (03-25-2021 01:21 PM)ken d Wrote: [ -> ]If the SEC were to invite NC State to join them, and no ACC schools opposed the move, would the Pack accept the invitation? And if they said yes, who would the ACC target to replace them?
Your premise is unrealistic since all the other ACC schools would oppose such a move. I’m no NCSU alum but I’d guess the vast majority of alums would oppose this as would the NC General Assembly. It’s a non-starter. It wouldn’t solve any real problem NCSU has.
I didn't ask whether the premise was realistic. My interest is in finding out what NC State fans and administration would really want if there weren't any obstacles put in their way.
And, I doubt if you speak for all the other ACC schools on this or any matter. None of us do.
I'll speak for the rest of the ACC rather than listening to Duke disembler.
WF will say no. Duke will say no. UNC will say no. Clemson, FSU, and GT will not care as long as the exit of NC State is part of a P-5 trade of sorts. UVa and VT will stay out of it but will tacitly support UNC, WF, and Duke. The opinions of BC, Syracuse, and Louisville do not matter.
The ACC might not need a replacement for State.
How would ESPN feel about it?
ESPN could care less if NC State is in the SEC or ACC - it's all the same to them. Big 10 is another matter. If NC State to the Big 10 makes room for Texas, Kansas, OU in the SEC/ACC milieu, ESPN will say so be it.
NC State is worth way more to the SEC or Big 10 than it is to the ACC. Just a simple function of the number of schools in NC and NC State killing its basketball program 30 years ago.
14/15/16/18 underlying conference structure has to be addressed. If the new number is 5 with three divisions, moving NC State to the B10 allows two SEC or Big 12 schools to move to the ACC. If that number is 16, things change. Things change again at 18.
N.C. State would never be permitted to leave for an entirely other reason and one that refutes one of State Fan's points. Envy. There is absolutely no way that Duke, UNC, Wake, or Clemson, Georgia Tech, or F.S.U. would support a move that gave a neighbor and rival double the media revenue they get. And what refutes SF's position is the athletic department at State would have 28 to 30 million more to invest in all sports as they deemed practical and effective and yes that would be enough to compete at least at mid tier levels in the SEC or Big 10 and in the SEC would give N.C. State access to a better pool of recruits. And for that reason alone it will never be permitted to happen.
(03-25-2021 03:06 PM)JRsec Wrote: [ -> ]N.C. State would never be permitted to leave for an entirely other reason and one that refutes one of State Fan's points. Envy. There is absolutely no way that Duke, UNC, Wake, or Clemson, Georgia Tech, or F.S.U. would support a move that gave a neighbor and rival double the media revenue they get. And what refutes SF's position is the athletic department at State would have 28 to 30 million more to invest in all sports as they deemed practical and effective and yes that would be enough to compete at least at mid tier levels in the SEC or Big 10 and in the SEC would give N.C. State access to a better pool of recruits. And for that reason alone it will never be permitted to happen.
It would take $50 million more a year to compete at the same level in the SEC. $40 million in the Big 10. The additional money does not cause us to move up just barely hold a place. When MD moved they got more money and fell to the bottom of the B10.
I suspect that Duke and UNC might laugh their ass off watching State attempt to compete with multi-generational oil money and WWII Industrial Complex money.
(03-25-2021 03:15 PM)Statefan Wrote: [ -> ] (03-25-2021 03:06 PM)JRsec Wrote: [ -> ]N.C. State would never be permitted to leave for an entirely other reason and one that refutes one of State Fan's points. Envy. There is absolutely no way that Duke, UNC, Wake, or Clemson, Georgia Tech, or F.S.U. would support a move that gave a neighbor and rival double the media revenue they get. And what refutes SF's position is the athletic department at State would have 28 to 30 million more to invest in all sports as they deemed practical and effective and yes that would be enough to compete at least at mid tier levels in the SEC or Big 10 and in the SEC would give N.C. State access to a better pool of recruits. And for that reason alone it will never be permitted to happen.
It would take $50 million more a year to compete at the same level in the SEC. $40 million in the Big 10. The additional money does not cause us to move up just barely hold a place. When MD moved they got more money and fell to the bottom of the B10.
But you mainly compete for recruits against the same ACC schools you currently compete with. You would improve and I don't believe you would fall to the position of Maryland and Missouri who are having to sell fans on non traditional opponents.
If the SEC expanded with anyone from the West and added N.C. State you would be looking at a division that included: Florida, Georgia, South Carolina, Kentucky, Tennessee, Vanderbilt and if all else remained the same Missouri. If Missouri is moved West for their benefit then perhaps you also have to contend with Auburn. You would finish ahead of Vanderbilt, and likely Kentucky, and would be in an even battle annually with Tennessee and South Carolina. The years you managed to defeat Georgia or Florida would be great years. If you keep Missouri put them in with Tennessee and South Carolina. If you get Auburn put them with Florida and Georgia.
It's not going to happen but if it did no matter the revenue you wouldn't be any worse off than now, and probably better off in hoops and baseball. In hoops better off in contention. In baseball it would just be great fun because the SEC is a scramble every season.
The only way I can see this happening is UNC moving to the Big Ten. This would then free NC State to leave for the SEC, IMO, since only Duke and Wake would be opposed.
(03-25-2021 05:19 PM)DawgNBama Wrote: [ -> ]The only way I can see this happening is UNC moving to the Big Ten. This would then free NC State to leave for the SEC, IMO, since only Duke and Wake would be opposed.
While NC State would need the support of existing members of the conference they were trying to get into, they wouldn't need Wake's or Duke's support to leave. The only reason their support might matter would be in negotiating the price of leaving, both with respect to the exit fee and the GoR. Frankly, I'm not certain the ACC or any other conference has the stomach for testing the GoR in court for any member less important than one of its tentpoles.
If State were to try to accept a bona fide offer from the SEC, that could answer definitively the question of whether UNC could actually veto it as some claim and whether they would if they could..
(03-25-2021 05:48 PM)ken d Wrote: [ -> ] (03-25-2021 05:19 PM)DawgNBama Wrote: [ -> ]The only way I can see this happening is UNC moving to the Big Ten. This would then free NC State to leave for the SEC, IMO, since only Duke and Wake would be opposed.
While NC State would need the support of existing members of the conference they were trying to get into, they wouldn't need Wake's or Duke's support to leave. The only reason their support might matter would be in negotiating the price of leaving, both with respect to the exit fee and the GoR. Frankly, I'm not certain the ACC or any other conference has the stomach for testing the GoR in court for any member less important than one of its tentpoles.
If State were to try to accept a bona fide offer from the SEC, that could answer definitively the question of whether UNC could actually veto it as some claim and whether they would if they could..
Whatever Duke wants, they get through their relationship with UNC. It's no different than when Duke wanted a tax free hotel and golf club, they went through UNC-Ch to get that. UNC-Ch and Duke are separate entities on paper and on a number of issues, but not all issues.
Duke sports thrive best when there is only one other successful team in NC. You can go back and see that over the last 80 years.
There is no question as to the issue of a UNC-Ch veto, to suggest otherwise means you do not understand NC politics. And to address JR's point, envy would only be associated with the SEC. The Big 10, not so much.
Breaking free of the others in NC is possible only with a move to the Big 10 because UNC nor Duke are greatly harmed by the change in football or basketball and despite the extra income from the Big 10, NC State football is not going to eclipse Penn State, Ohio State, Michigan, or Wisconsin. a 10-3 or 9-4 NC State does no harm to UNC or Duke.
The idea that UNC would leave the conference they have controlled with Duke for the last 50 years just for money is crazy and it underestimates UNC's and Duke's inherent need to win athletic contests.
It's cheap to compete in the ACC if you can compete in the ACC.
(03-25-2021 01:21 PM)ken d Wrote: [ -> ]If the SEC were to invite NC State to join them, and no ACC schools opposed the move, would the Pack accept the invitation? And if they said yes, who would the ACC target to replace them?
That sure is a lot of ifs.
If State moved to the SEC, has 15 teams per conference become the "norm"? Should the ACC actually be looking for 2 teams to get to 15?
The obvious choice would be Notre Dame to overfill State's shoes. If (again) the Irish wanted to continue with the status quo and the ACC needed two teams to get to 15 full time members, the two targets would be: Cincinnati and Central Florida.
(03-26-2021 04:47 AM)XLance Wrote: [ -> ] (03-25-2021 01:21 PM)ken d Wrote: [ -> ]If the SEC were to invite NC State to join them, and no ACC schools opposed the move, would the Pack accept the invitation? And if they said yes, who would the ACC target to replace them?
That sure is a lot of ifs.
If State moved to the SEC, has 15 teams per conference become the "norm"? Should the ACC actually be looking for 2 teams to get to 15?
The obvious choice would be Notre Dame to overfill State's shoes. If (again) the Irish wanted to continue with the status quo and the ACC needed two teams to get to 15 full time members, the two targets would be: Cincinnati and Central Florida.
I wasn't suggesting that the SEC (or the B1G either) would invite
only NC State. My assumption would be that they would only be invited along with some other prize to balance divisions if either of those wanted to go all the way to 18. But as I said earlier, my primary interest was in gauging State's willingness to leave the ACC, not other conferences' willingness to invite them. Apparently, there aren't enough NC State fans on the forum to get a good sense of that.
(03-25-2021 02:46 PM)ken d Wrote: [ -> ] (03-25-2021 02:32 PM)Hallcity Wrote: [ -> ] (03-25-2021 01:21 PM)ken d Wrote: [ -> ]If the SEC were to invite NC State to join them, and no ACC schools opposed the move, would the Pack accept the invitation? And if they said yes, who would the ACC target to replace them?
Your premise is unrealistic since all the other ACC schools would oppose such a move. I’m no NCSU alum but I’d guess the vast majority of alums would oppose this as would the NC General Assembly. It’s a non-starter. It wouldn’t solve any real problem NCSU has.
I didn't ask whether the premise was realistic. My interest is in finding out what NC State fans and administration would really want if there weren't any obstacles put in their way.
And, I doubt if you speak for all the other ACC schools on this or any matter. None of us do.
I think a lot of State fans would be more than happy to move to the SEC...I know I would. I'm 46 years old and have been a State fan since birth. Season ticket holder in multiple sports and, to me, the ACC is just blah.
First...the ACC isn't what it used to be. Holly Farms, Sail with the Pilot, Packer/Thacker etc etc etc.....all GONE. Not coming back...ever. So whatever traditions associated with being a part of tobacco rd and the "old guard" of the ACC...are pretty much gone.
Secondly, NCSU needs money for the athletic dept. The SEC would be a shot in the arm where that is concerned. State would be light years behind in the facilities dept but I think they could catch up quickly.
But...what many fans probably don't grasp is how hard it would be to make the move.
#1 The UNC Board of Gov would never allow NCSU to have an advantage of any kind over UNC. Being in the SEC would be a perceived advantage for the athletic dept.
#2 The academic snobs wouldnt want to leave the likes of Duke, UVa, UNC and GT
et al.....for the SEC. Even though NCSU would fit in the SEC like a glove the eggheads wouldn't go for it.
(03-26-2021 05:18 AM)ken d Wrote: [ -> ] (03-26-2021 04:47 AM)XLance Wrote: [ -> ] (03-25-2021 01:21 PM)ken d Wrote: [ -> ]If the SEC were to invite NC State to join them, and no ACC schools opposed the move, would the Pack accept the invitation? And if they said yes, who would the ACC target to replace them?
That sure is a lot of ifs.
If State moved to the SEC, has 15 teams per conference become the "norm"? Should the ACC actually be looking for 2 teams to get to 15?
The obvious choice would be Notre Dame to overfill State's shoes. If (again) the Irish wanted to continue with the status quo and the ACC needed two teams to get to 15 full time members, the two targets would be: Cincinnati and Central Florida.
I wasn't suggesting that the SEC (or the B1G either) would invite only NC State. My assumption would be that they would only be invited along with some other prize to balance divisions if either of those wanted to go all the way to 18. But as I said earlier, my primary interest was in gauging State's willingness to leave the ACC, not other conferences' willingness to invite them. Apparently, there aren't enough NC State fans on the forum to get a good sense of that.
Okay Ken you have had your necessary cross section.
Before there are any additional moves there has to be enough collusion to determine an optimal structure. I think it is 12/15/18 instead of 14/16. I think optimal structure includes three divisions and a wild card that produces a 4 school conference playoff.
I think the only schools that might move are schools that have already moved from one P-5 to another so that includes Colorado, TAMU, Nebraska, MD, Mizzou, SC, plus the three of Kansas, OU, and Texas, and anyone whose rightness of fit no longer fits such as Vandy, or perhaps FSU, or perhaps, ND, PSU or NC State.
I think the problem that exists today is that such moves are difficult to hide and potentially subject to counter moves by a conference that does not like the moves making some sort of collusive deal a must.