03-04-2021, 10:11 AM
(03-03-2021 11:36 PM)Rice93 Wrote: [ -> ](03-03-2021 11:17 PM)Hambone10 Wrote: [ -> ](03-03-2021 04:50 PM)Rice93 Wrote: [ -> ]I'm a bit torn on the statue issue. I understand both the POV of both sides but I tend to listen to the black students who say that they are uncomfortable with the statue being in the quad. Therefore, if I were asked to vote, I would likely vote for the removal of the statue.
I'm not sure that moving his statue to a place that receives less foot-traffic is "relegating him to a foot note". Even completely removing the statue. I don't think there's any chance that Rice is going to change its name.
I'd be willing to hear someone explain this to me....
Well... you're barking up the wrong tree on the Rice Parliament because it's certainly not going to be explained by a group of mostly middle-age and older white dudes.
I didn't expect it to be answered here, although there are a few minority (that I know of) posters. Although its come up on occasion, I don't pro-actively ask them about the statue. a) I think it presumptuous and potentially even racist to assume that they must have a strong opinion on the issue, which is different from asking someone for a casual one. What I mean by that is that if you ask me what I think about a lot of issues, I'll give you an opinion... but many of them I don't really care about. and b) i think it a big part of 'making change' for those interested in doing so to put forth their case to what I would call 'casually interested persons' like me, and not mine to pro-actively seek it.... else I get a lot of what I would call 'light' opinions that masquerade as strong ones.
Said differently, my entire premise is based on the idea that people knew or could have known or should have known the History of Rice, especially if this was something they already cared about and was personal to them... I would think those sort of people would be strongly driven instead to Universities with strong histories of supporting African Americans, of which there are many. If instead they chose Rice because of its academic standing and its current attitudes towards minorities, DESPITE its history... then it seems troublesome.
Its like a girlfriend who dates a cheating guy thinking he will 'change' for her as opposed to dating a guy who doesn't have a cheating reputation in the first place. Even a reformed cheater will STILL have that history. Is their history who they are, or their current? Especially from 50-125 years ago (which often wouldn't apply to people). Businesses and 'entities' change much more easily than people.
(03-04-2021 12:21 AM)Rice93 Wrote: [ -> ](03-04-2021 12:14 AM)westsidewolf1989 Wrote: [ -> ](03-03-2021 11:43 PM)Rice93 Wrote: [ -> ]The current black students at Rice could have gone to hundreds of universities that would have set them up for spectacular success.
Many of which, including most of the Ivy League, were founded by people with ties to slavery (literally Elihu Yale's profession) or were funded by profits from the slave trade or related industries.
Agree... yet this doesn't take away from my point that these high-achieving black students at Rice would not have been just fine had WMR never founded Rice. I don't think that you are arguing that without slavery there would be no secondary education in the Unites States in 2021.
IIRC, Harvard actually OWNED slaves. Not the person, the University.
The fact that they would be fine if RIce had never been founded is a bit of a red herring. It was, and they chose to attend it. Sure, they could have made another choice but they didn't. If RIce (or really ANY University) hadn't been founded, they wouldn't have had the option to CHOOSE Rice over those other Universities... almost by definition, they would have been relegated to their second (or third or fourth or fifth) choice... and thus they actually WOULD be directly (marginally) 'worse off' had Rice never existed.
(03-04-2021 09:14 AM)RiceLad15 Wrote: [ -> ]Two thoughts:
1) I'm really impressed at how infrequently you passed by Willy's statue.
I passed that statue almost every single day I was on campus.
But thinking about the university's layout, if you didn't have classes in the engineering quad or Herzstein, you don't really have a reason to go past it. Always interesting how different people's experiences at Rice are, even when the school is so small.
Remember that when I was on campus, many of the buildings you may have visited didn't exist. In addition, the hedges in the quad have come and gone over the years... so people might cut across the quad, but not go to the center of it. I was in Will Rice, so the only time I went to say Brown or Jones was when I was going to Brown or Jones, which wasn't often... at least not often 'directly' from Will Rice. If I were coming from the Gym or Stadium, I wouldn't pass through the quad. I took One class in Hertzein... a number in Sewall and Rayzor... Anderson was Archi, and I dated an Archi for a bit, but I passed in front of Fondren, not WIllie. SO while I agree with your premise, it was even more pronounced some years ago.
Quote:2) I think the perspective from your student-athlete friend is a good one, especially since their education and degree were paid for with their hard work representing the school. And while not all black students at Rice fit that bill, Rice has such a strong financial aid system, that it's likely that most student in the student body (sans-international students) are receiving some support from the institution.
One thing that gets overshadowed by those advocating for change is that, while Rice may have done abhorrent things with the benefit of hindsight to evaluate them, his legacy has created a university that continues to strive to do better.
Now, the whole all white charter business makes waters a bit murkier, as that is definitely a stain on our university. But again, I think we have made significant strides to address that in the past 50+ years.
I get your point, but I'm not sure that 'failing to educate' black students is really that much more of a stain than 'enslaving' them. There weren't many opportunities for them at places like UT or other schools until a relatively short period before then... so its a NATIONAL blight and Rice was just one of MANY schools that engaged in that same policy... whether it was in the founding will or not. I actually take pride that the UNIVERSITY founded in his name SUED the estate to make the right change... as opposed to having state police or national guard FORCE it to do so. It actually demonstrates a DESIRE for change as opposed to challenging that change... which speaks to your 50+ years of strides.
As I said before, I certainly wouldn't argue that someone can't be offended by the History of Rice... but I wonder why that same person wouldn't be offended by the history of Alabama or Texas or MANY MANY other schools who discriminated against minorities... and why they would today CHOOSE TO ATTEND that offensive University (when they obviously have tons of options if they can get in to Rice) and then be inhibited from succeeding by a single statue of the person who founded it... REGARDLESS of what sort of person he was. Even to those who walk by it every day... I wonder how many even really notice 'the person' and think about his personal story when they do.
I mentioned Tecumseh because it is a statue of an Indian on a campus of US military people who quite arguably fought, defeated and 'enslaved' Indians... but Tecumseh actually plays a part in Navy lore and traditions... to a much greater degree than we do in decorating Willie.