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(03-03-2021 11:36 PM)Rice93 Wrote: [ -> ]
(03-03-2021 11:17 PM)Hambone10 Wrote: [ -> ]
(03-03-2021 04:50 PM)Rice93 Wrote: [ -> ]I'm a bit torn on the statue issue. I understand both the POV of both sides but I tend to listen to the black students who say that they are uncomfortable with the statue being in the quad. Therefore, if I were asked to vote, I would likely vote for the removal of the statue.

I'm not sure that moving his statue to a place that receives less foot-traffic is "relegating him to a foot note". Even completely removing the statue. I don't think there's any chance that Rice is going to change its name.

I'd be willing to hear someone explain this to me....

Well... you're barking up the wrong tree on the Rice Parliament because it's certainly not going to be explained by a group of mostly middle-age and older white dudes.

I didn't expect it to be answered here, although there are a few minority (that I know of) posters. Although its come up on occasion, I don't pro-actively ask them about the statue. a) I think it presumptuous and potentially even racist to assume that they must have a strong opinion on the issue, which is different from asking someone for a casual one. What I mean by that is that if you ask me what I think about a lot of issues, I'll give you an opinion... but many of them I don't really care about. and b) i think it a big part of 'making change' for those interested in doing so to put forth their case to what I would call 'casually interested persons' like me, and not mine to pro-actively seek it.... else I get a lot of what I would call 'light' opinions that masquerade as strong ones.

Said differently, my entire premise is based on the idea that people knew or could have known or should have known the History of Rice, especially if this was something they already cared about and was personal to them... I would think those sort of people would be strongly driven instead to Universities with strong histories of supporting African Americans, of which there are many. If instead they chose Rice because of its academic standing and its current attitudes towards minorities, DESPITE its history... then it seems troublesome.

Its like a girlfriend who dates a cheating guy thinking he will 'change' for her as opposed to dating a guy who doesn't have a cheating reputation in the first place. Even a reformed cheater will STILL have that history. Is their history who they are, or their current? Especially from 50-125 years ago (which often wouldn't apply to people). Businesses and 'entities' change much more easily than people.

(03-04-2021 12:21 AM)Rice93 Wrote: [ -> ]
(03-04-2021 12:14 AM)westsidewolf1989 Wrote: [ -> ]
(03-03-2021 11:43 PM)Rice93 Wrote: [ -> ]The current black students at Rice could have gone to hundreds of universities that would have set them up for spectacular success.

Many of which, including most of the Ivy League, were founded by people with ties to slavery (literally Elihu Yale's profession) or were funded by profits from the slave trade or related industries.

Agree... yet this doesn't take away from my point that these high-achieving black students at Rice would not have been just fine had WMR never founded Rice. I don't think that you are arguing that without slavery there would be no secondary education in the Unites States in 2021.

IIRC, Harvard actually OWNED slaves. Not the person, the University.

The fact that they would be fine if RIce had never been founded is a bit of a red herring. It was, and they chose to attend it. Sure, they could have made another choice but they didn't. If RIce (or really ANY University) hadn't been founded, they wouldn't have had the option to CHOOSE Rice over those other Universities... almost by definition, they would have been relegated to their second (or third or fourth or fifth) choice... and thus they actually WOULD be directly (marginally) 'worse off' had Rice never existed.

(03-04-2021 09:14 AM)RiceLad15 Wrote: [ -> ]Two thoughts:

1) I'm really impressed at how infrequently you passed by Willy's statue.
I passed that statue almost every single day I was on campus.

But thinking about the university's layout, if you didn't have classes in the engineering quad or Herzstein, you don't really have a reason to go past it. Always interesting how different people's experiences at Rice are, even when the school is so small.

Remember that when I was on campus, many of the buildings you may have visited didn't exist. In addition, the hedges in the quad have come and gone over the years... so people might cut across the quad, but not go to the center of it. I was in Will Rice, so the only time I went to say Brown or Jones was when I was going to Brown or Jones, which wasn't often... at least not often 'directly' from Will Rice. If I were coming from the Gym or Stadium, I wouldn't pass through the quad. I took One class in Hertzein... a number in Sewall and Rayzor... Anderson was Archi, and I dated an Archi for a bit, but I passed in front of Fondren, not WIllie. SO while I agree with your premise, it was even more pronounced some years ago.

Quote:2) I think the perspective from your student-athlete friend is a good one, especially since their education and degree were paid for with their hard work representing the school. And while not all black students at Rice fit that bill, Rice has such a strong financial aid system, that it's likely that most student in the student body (sans-international students) are receiving some support from the institution.

One thing that gets overshadowed by those advocating for change is that, while Rice may have done abhorrent things with the benefit of hindsight to evaluate them, his legacy has created a university that continues to strive to do better.

Now, the whole all white charter business makes waters a bit murkier, as that is definitely a stain on our university. But again, I think we have made significant strides to address that in the past 50+ years.

I get your point, but I'm not sure that 'failing to educate' black students is really that much more of a stain than 'enslaving' them. There weren't many opportunities for them at places like UT or other schools until a relatively short period before then... so its a NATIONAL blight and Rice was just one of MANY schools that engaged in that same policy... whether it was in the founding will or not. I actually take pride that the UNIVERSITY founded in his name SUED the estate to make the right change... as opposed to having state police or national guard FORCE it to do so. It actually demonstrates a DESIRE for change as opposed to challenging that change... which speaks to your 50+ years of strides.

As I said before, I certainly wouldn't argue that someone can't be offended by the History of Rice... but I wonder why that same person wouldn't be offended by the history of Alabama or Texas or MANY MANY other schools who discriminated against minorities... and why they would today CHOOSE TO ATTEND that offensive University (when they obviously have tons of options if they can get in to Rice) and then be inhibited from succeeding by a single statue of the person who founded it... REGARDLESS of what sort of person he was. Even to those who walk by it every day... I wonder how many even really notice 'the person' and think about his personal story when they do.

I mentioned Tecumseh because it is a statue of an Indian on a campus of US military people who quite arguably fought, defeated and 'enslaved' Indians... but Tecumseh actually plays a part in Navy lore and traditions... to a much greater degree than we do in decorating Willie.
(03-04-2021 10:11 AM)Hambone10 Wrote: [ -> ]
(03-03-2021 11:36 PM)Rice93 Wrote: [ -> ]
(03-03-2021 11:17 PM)Hambone10 Wrote: [ -> ]
(03-03-2021 04:50 PM)Rice93 Wrote: [ -> ]I'm a bit torn on the statue issue. I understand both the POV of both sides but I tend to listen to the black students who say that they are uncomfortable with the statue being in the quad. Therefore, if I were asked to vote, I would likely vote for the removal of the statue.

I'm not sure that moving his statue to a place that receives less foot-traffic is "relegating him to a foot note". Even completely removing the statue. I don't think there's any chance that Rice is going to change its name.

I'd be willing to hear someone explain this to me....

Well... you're barking up the wrong tree on the Rice Parliament because it's certainly not going to be explained by a group of mostly middle-age and older white dudes.

I didn't expect it to be answered here, although there are a few minority (that I know of) posters. Although its come up on occasion, I don't pro-actively ask them about the statue. a) I think it presumptuous and potentially even racist to assume that they must have a strong opinion on the issue, which is different from asking someone for a casual one. What I mean by that is that if you ask me what I think about a lot of issues, I'll give you an opinion... but many of them I don't really care about. and b) i think it a big part of 'making change' for those interested in doing so to put forth their case to what I would call 'casually interested persons' like me, and not mine to pro-actively seek it.... else I get a lot of what I would call 'light' opinions that masquerade as strong ones.

Said differently, my entire premise is based on the idea that people knew or could have known or should have known the History of Rice, especially if this was something they already cared about and was personal to them... I would think those sort of people would be strongly driven instead to Universities with strong histories of supporting African Americans, of which there are many. If instead they chose Rice because of its academic standing and its current attitudes towards minorities, DESPITE its history... then it seems troublesome.

Its like a girlfriend who dates a cheating guy thinking he will 'change' for her as opposed to dating a guy who doesn't have a cheating reputation in the first place.

From what I understand many black students (like many of us) were not aware of WMR's history regarding slavery when they chose to attend. This really came out in the open over the past few years. It seems that now some black students are uncomfortable with the idea that the statue of a slaveowner holds such a prominent position on today's campus.

If you recall my original comment on here... I'm somewhat torn when it comes to this issue. I am not a strident anti-statue person when it comes to WMR. I do, however, understand that some black students have concerns about the statue and I was simply stating that I would personally give those concerns credibility.
(03-04-2021 09:07 AM)RiceLad15 Wrote: [ -> ]
(03-04-2021 01:11 AM)OptimisticOwl Wrote: [ -> ]
(03-03-2021 11:36 PM)Rice93 Wrote: [ -> ]
(03-03-2021 11:17 PM)Hambone10 Wrote: [ -> ]
(03-03-2021 04:50 PM)Rice93 Wrote: [ -> ]I'm a bit torn on the statue issue. I understand both the POV of both sides but I tend to listen to the black students who say that they are uncomfortable with the statue being in the quad. Therefore, if I were asked to vote, I would likely vote for the removal of the statue.

I'm not sure that moving his statue to a place that receives less foot-traffic is "relegating him to a foot note". Even completely removing the statue. I don't think there's any chance that Rice is going to change its name.

I'd be willing to hear someone explain this to me....

Well... you're barking up the wrong tree on the Rice Parliament because it's certainly not going to be explained by a group of mostly middle-age and older white dudes.

Not just racist, but ageist. Apparently I must STFU due to ethnicity and age.

Conservative victimhood strikes again!

Here is the conversation above, that you responded to directly:

"but I tend to listen to the black students who say that they are uncomfortable with the statue being in the quad"

"I'd be willing to hear someone explain this to me...."

You seriously took offense to saying that the Quad posters aren't either current or past black students?

You're certainly free to speak on this and offer your opinion. But that isn't really relevant to a conversation about hearing directly from black Rice students about their opinions...

I took personal offense to this statement:

Well... you're barking up the wrong tree on the Rice Parliament because it's certainly not going to be explained by a group of mostly middle-age and older white dudes.

the way I read it, I cannot give a salient opinion because I am too old and too white. How do you read it?
(03-04-2021 09:18 AM)Rice93 Wrote: [ -> ]
(03-04-2021 01:11 AM)OptimisticOwl Wrote: [ -> ]
(03-03-2021 11:36 PM)Rice93 Wrote: [ -> ]
(03-03-2021 11:17 PM)Hambone10 Wrote: [ -> ]
(03-03-2021 04:50 PM)Rice93 Wrote: [ -> ]I'm a bit torn on the statue issue. I understand both the POV of both sides but I tend to listen to the black students who say that they are uncomfortable with the statue being in the quad. Therefore, if I were asked to vote, I would likely vote for the removal of the statue.

I'm not sure that moving his statue to a place that receives less foot-traffic is "relegating him to a foot note". Even completely removing the statue. I don't think there's any chance that Rice is going to change its name.

I'd be willing to hear someone explain this to me....

Well... you're barking up the wrong tree on the Rice Parliament because it's certainly not going to be explained by a group of mostly middle-age and older white dudes.

Not just racist, but ageist. Apparently I must STFU due to ethnicity and age.

Don't be such a baby. He was saying that it would be nice to have an explanation about how black students feel regarding walking by the statue and I simply stated that we aren't going to get insight into that here.

Exactly my thoughts concerning students who feel bad about walking by the statue. Don't be such a baby.
(03-04-2021 10:38 AM)OptimisticOwl Wrote: [ -> ]
(03-04-2021 09:07 AM)RiceLad15 Wrote: [ -> ]
(03-04-2021 01:11 AM)OptimisticOwl Wrote: [ -> ]
(03-03-2021 11:36 PM)Rice93 Wrote: [ -> ]
(03-03-2021 11:17 PM)Hambone10 Wrote: [ -> ]I'd be willing to hear someone explain this to me....

Well... you're barking up the wrong tree on the Rice Parliament because it's certainly not going to be explained by a group of mostly middle-age and older white dudes.

Not just racist, but ageist. Apparently I must STFU due to ethnicity and age.

Conservative victimhood strikes again!

Here is the conversation above, that you responded to directly:

"but I tend to listen to the black students who say that they are uncomfortable with the statue being in the quad"

"I'd be willing to hear someone explain this to me...."

You seriously took offense to saying that the Quad posters aren't either current or past black students?

You're certainly free to speak on this and offer your opinion. But that isn't really relevant to a conversation about hearing directly from black Rice students about their opinions...

I took offense to this statement:

Well... you're barking up the wrong tree on the Rice Parliament because it's certainly not going to be explained by a group of mostly middle-age and older white dudes.

the way I read it, I cannot give a salient opinion because I am too old and too white. How do you read it?

I would read it as NONE of us are going to be able to provide insight as to what makes some current black Rice students uncomfortable with the statue. I am also too old and too white to give a salient opinion on this topic.
(03-04-2021 09:20 AM)Rice93 Wrote: [ -> ]
(03-04-2021 01:17 AM)OptimisticOwl Wrote: [ -> ]
(03-03-2021 07:06 PM)Rice93 Wrote: [ -> ]
(03-03-2021 06:01 PM)Tomball Owl Wrote: [ -> ]
(03-03-2021 05:58 PM)OptimisticOwl Wrote: [ -> ]Why does that seem impossible to you? If WMR is so shameful we have to hide or remove the statue of the founder, it seems entirely logical to me that we eventually would be debating whether to change the name to "Freedom U." or "Sojourner Truth U.".

I foresee lots of schools having to change their names to satisfy this movement. Washington and Lee? There's a double whammy of slaveowners. I don't know who Brown, Yale, Harvard, Baylor or dozens of other schools were named after, or the detail of their lives or if those details measure up to modern race standards, but I doubt that many people from over 50 years back will measure up. When even Lincoln cannot appear as the name of a school in SF, it is not inconceivable.

If walking by a piece of rock makes somebody uncomfortable, don't walk by it. The Alamo makes me uncomfortable. The UT Tower makes me uncomfortable. The whole city of Waco makes me uncomfortable. The IRS office makes me uncomfortable.

If walking by the statue of the man who made your education possible makes you uncomfortable, I think you must be very ungrateful.

And you should return your degree and pay back any scholly monies you got.

I am assuming that neither of you to have direct relatives that were slaves. I don’t either. I’m going to give those that fall into this category the benefit of the doubt that their discomfort is significant.

How far back may we go? My ancestry is primarily British, German, and Spanish, all of which were enslaved by the Romans, and 3% Jewish, who were enslaved by the Egyptians, and 5% Native American, who enslaved each other. No telling how many ancestors I have who were slaves. In fact, given the prevalence of slavery throughout history and on every continent, I doubt there is any human on this earth who has zero slaves in their genealogical tree, including you, 93.

LOL that you equate how historical slavery in your remote lineage is somehow relevent to how slavery has affected current black Americans.

Not what you said. What you said was "I am assuming that neither of you to have direct relatives that were slaves." You did not limit it to black ancestry, or 1619-2021.

I find this attitude to be prevalent among SJWs. slavery was only whites enslaving blacks and only in America and only from 1619 on. Not so.

Yes, the effects are diluted through time, but now we are 150 years past emancipation.
(03-04-2021 10:46 AM)OptimisticOwl Wrote: [ -> ]
(03-04-2021 09:20 AM)Rice93 Wrote: [ -> ]
(03-04-2021 01:17 AM)OptimisticOwl Wrote: [ -> ]
(03-03-2021 07:06 PM)Rice93 Wrote: [ -> ]
(03-03-2021 06:01 PM)Tomball Owl Wrote: [ -> ]And you should return your degree and pay back any scholly monies you got.

I am assuming that neither of you to have direct relatives that were slaves. I don’t either. I’m going to give those that fall into this category the benefit of the doubt that their discomfort is significant.

How far back may we go? My ancestry is primarily British, German, and Spanish, all of which were enslaved by the Romans, and 3% Jewish, who were enslaved by the Egyptians, and 5% Native American, who enslaved each other. No telling how many ancestors I have who were slaves. In fact, given the prevalence of slavery throughout history and on every continent, I doubt there is any human on this earth who has zero slaves in their genealogical tree, including you, 93.

LOL that you equate how historical slavery in your remote lineage is somehow relevent to how slavery has affected current black Americans.

Not what you said. What you said was "I am assuming that neither of you to have direct relatives that were slaves." You did not limit it to black ancestry, or 1619-2021.

I find this attitude to be prevalent among SJWs. slavery was only whites enslaving blacks and only in America and only from 1619 on. Not so.

Yes, the effects are diluted through time, but now we are 150 years past emancipation.

I'm aware of other instances of slavery. I thought it was obvious that I was referring to American slavery 1619-Emancipation. Sorry if I wasn't clear.

So do you feel that the overall effect of slavery on your life is pretty close to the overall effect of slavery on a 2021 American black person's life?
(03-04-2021 10:41 AM)OptimisticOwl Wrote: [ -> ]
(03-04-2021 09:18 AM)Rice93 Wrote: [ -> ]
(03-04-2021 01:11 AM)OptimisticOwl Wrote: [ -> ]
(03-03-2021 11:36 PM)Rice93 Wrote: [ -> ]
(03-03-2021 11:17 PM)Hambone10 Wrote: [ -> ]I'd be willing to hear someone explain this to me....

Well... you're barking up the wrong tree on the Rice Parliament because it's certainly not going to be explained by a group of mostly middle-age and older white dudes.

Not just racist, but ageist. Apparently I must STFU due to ethnicity and age.

Don't be such a baby. He was saying that it would be nice to have an explanation about how black students feel regarding walking by the statue and I simply stated that we aren't going to get insight into that here.

Exactly my thoughts concerning students who feel bad about walking by the statue. Don't be such a baby.

You should tell them that sometime. Be sure to mention that 23-and-Me told you that you are 3% Jewish and therefore you are down.
(03-04-2021 10:42 AM)Rice93 Wrote: [ -> ]
(03-04-2021 10:38 AM)OptimisticOwl Wrote: [ -> ]
(03-04-2021 09:07 AM)RiceLad15 Wrote: [ -> ]
(03-04-2021 01:11 AM)OptimisticOwl Wrote: [ -> ]
(03-03-2021 11:36 PM)Rice93 Wrote: [ -> ]Well... you're barking up the wrong tree on the Rice Parliament because it's certainly not going to be explained by a group of mostly middle-age and older white dudes.

Not just racist, but ageist. Apparently I must STFU due to ethnicity and age.

Conservative victimhood strikes again!

Here is the conversation above, that you responded to directly:

"but I tend to listen to the black students who say that they are uncomfortable with the statue being in the quad"

"I'd be willing to hear someone explain this to me...."

You seriously took offense to saying that the Quad posters aren't either current or past black students?

You're certainly free to speak on this and offer your opinion. But that isn't really relevant to a conversation about hearing directly from black Rice students about their opinions...

I took offense to this statement:

Well... you're barking up the wrong tree on the Rice Parliament because it's certainly not going to be explained by a group of mostly middle-age and older white dudes.

the way I read it, I cannot give a salient opinion because I am too old and too white. How do you read it?

I would read it as NONE of us are going to be able to provide insight as to what makes some current black Rice students uncomfortable with the statue. I am also too old and too white to give a salient opinion on this topic.

And I guess none of us can give opinions on abortion or Cuomo's unwanted advances or Biden's creepy touch feelies because we are not women, so STFU. Yet we are fine with engineers giving legal advice and lawyers giving environmental opinions.


During my years on campus, I rarely passed the statue, and never thought to ponder how many people he did wrong to amass the fortune that was giving me a free education that my parents could not have afforded. I never assumed he led a pure and blameless life, by any standards, the standards of his time or the standards of my time there or the standards of now.

I have no personal connection with any of my ancestors past two generations. Not hard to imagine that my hispanic ancestors were discriminated against ,but I don't know. Perhaps WMR discriminated against "Mexicans" - it would not have been unusual in his day and age. So should I shudder every time I see my diploma with his name on it? I think it is largely an affectation. No current black student has ever met an American slave. That includes their family.

You didn't think that changing the name would ever be an issue - just move the statue to a backwater on the campus and everything ends there. But it doesn't. Every little step backwards (or forward, in your view) leads to another step. It does not end until history is rewritten.

I am fine with the history that WMR, and Geo. Washington, and T. Jefferson owned slaves. It is truth. I am fine with the history that A. Lincoln advocated sending the slaves back to Africa. it is the truth. What I am not fine with is writing those gentlemen out of history because of that.
(03-04-2021 10:38 AM)OptimisticOwl Wrote: [ -> ]
(03-04-2021 09:07 AM)RiceLad15 Wrote: [ -> ]
(03-04-2021 01:11 AM)OptimisticOwl Wrote: [ -> ]
(03-03-2021 11:36 PM)Rice93 Wrote: [ -> ]
(03-03-2021 11:17 PM)Hambone10 Wrote: [ -> ]I'd be willing to hear someone explain this to me....

Well... you're barking up the wrong tree on the Rice Parliament because it's certainly not going to be explained by a group of mostly middle-age and older white dudes.

Not just racist, but ageist. Apparently I must STFU due to ethnicity and age.

Conservative victimhood strikes again!

Here is the conversation above, that you responded to directly:

"but I tend to listen to the black students who say that they are uncomfortable with the statue being in the quad"

"I'd be willing to hear someone explain this to me...."

You seriously took offense to saying that the Quad posters aren't either current or past black students?

You're certainly free to speak on this and offer your opinion. But that isn't really relevant to a conversation about hearing directly from black Rice students about their opinions...

I took personal offense to this statement:

Well... you're barking up the wrong tree on the Rice Parliament because it's certainly not going to be explained by a group of mostly middle-age and older white dudes.

the way I read it, I cannot give a salient opinion because I am too old and too white. How do you read it?

I read it differently. I read that you can't provide insight into what the opinion of a black student may be, and how the statue affects them.

Speak to your own experiences, but recognize the limitations of them.
(03-04-2021 11:10 AM)RiceLad15 Wrote: [ -> ]
(03-04-2021 10:38 AM)OptimisticOwl Wrote: [ -> ]
(03-04-2021 09:07 AM)RiceLad15 Wrote: [ -> ]
(03-04-2021 01:11 AM)OptimisticOwl Wrote: [ -> ]
(03-03-2021 11:36 PM)Rice93 Wrote: [ -> ]Well... you're barking up the wrong tree on the Rice Parliament because it's certainly not going to be explained by a group of mostly middle-age and older white dudes.

Not just racist, but ageist. Apparently I must STFU due to ethnicity and age.

Conservative victimhood strikes again!

Here is the conversation above, that you responded to directly:

"but I tend to listen to the black students who say that they are uncomfortable with the statue being in the quad"

"I'd be willing to hear someone explain this to me...."

You seriously took offense to saying that the Quad posters aren't either current or past black students?

You're certainly free to speak on this and offer your opinion. But that isn't really relevant to a conversation about hearing directly from black Rice students about their opinions...

I took personal offense to this statement:

Well... you're barking up the wrong tree on the Rice Parliament because it's certainly not going to be explained by a group of mostly middle-age and older white dudes.

the way I read it, I cannot give a salient opinion because I am too old and too white. How do you read it?

I read it differently. I read that you can't provide insight into what the opinion of a black student may be, and how the statue affects them.

Speak to your own experiences, but recognize the limitations of them.

I presume this means you will no longer argue law with lawyers, or present testimony on the topic of abortion?

I testify not only to my experiences but to my opinion of the alleged experiences of others, as do you. if you haven't swum the Rio Grande, shut up about illegal immigrants. if you haven't been pregnant, shut up about abortion. if yu haven't been on Death Row, shut up about the Death penalty. Is that what you advocate? Not me.
History is History. Rice isn't being celebrated on the campus (to the mild level that a statue/his tomb 'celebrates' him) as much as it celebrates the University that he founded, that has become the incredible University that it is today, that is as inclusive a University as there is in this country. Many others are similarly celebrated like Lovett, Hamman, Keck, Hermann Brown etc etc etc. What it we find out that one of them was a misogynist or was an abusive employer or had an undocumented yard worker or didn't withhold taxes on his maid? We took their money... we did something GREAT AND INCLUSIVE with it... That's like saying you can't endow a scholarship until we do a background check on you. How many BLATANT racists have contributed to the endowment?

Had they built his statue/tomb over in the grassy area around the entrance or in front of Autry House, I would similarly not support moving it... because the number of people walking past a statue doesn't make any difference. If it bothers you that much, take a different path. If you are truly bothered by his legacy, then don't choose to attend the Unoversty he founded. Don't associate yourself with an institution founded in the late 1800's by a slave owner. Don't choose to work for Amazon if you don't like how Jeff Bezos exploits workers. At least unlike Amazon, it is unlikely that you get accepted to Rice, but nobody else accepted you.

Let me make that more clear...
It is perfectly acceptable and even arguably noble if someone says, I don't want to go to Rice because of who WMR was. IN NO WAY am I telling people they can't feel offended. What I find less acceptable is to CHOOSE to attend Rice and then insist that it be something that it is not.. and that is a great and inclusive university founded by someone who was not inclusive
(03-04-2021 11:24 AM)Hambone10 Wrote: [ -> ]Let me make that more clear...
It is perfectly acceptable and even arguably noble if someone says, I don't want to go to Rice because of who WMR was. What I find less acceptable is to CHOOSE to attend Rice and then insist that it be something that it is not

Agreed. I would not choose to attend Bob Jones U or ORU or the Citadel or Tuskegee Institute or Loyola of Chicago, but if I did I would not insist they change to suit me.

"Move that statue of Oral Roberts out of my sight. It weirds me out".
(03-04-2021 10:50 AM)Rice93 Wrote: [ -> ]
(03-04-2021 10:46 AM)OptimisticOwl Wrote: [ -> ]
(03-04-2021 09:20 AM)Rice93 Wrote: [ -> ]
(03-04-2021 01:17 AM)OptimisticOwl Wrote: [ -> ]
(03-03-2021 07:06 PM)Rice93 Wrote: [ -> ]I am assuming that neither of you to have direct relatives that were slaves. I don’t either. I’m going to give those that fall into this category the benefit of the doubt that their discomfort is significant.

How far back may we go? My ancestry is primarily British, German, and Spanish, all of which were enslaved by the Romans, and 3% Jewish, who were enslaved by the Egyptians, and 5% Native American, who enslaved each other. No telling how many ancestors I have who were slaves. In fact, given the prevalence of slavery throughout history and on every continent, I doubt there is any human on this earth who has zero slaves in their genealogical tree, including you, 93.

LOL that you equate how historical slavery in your remote lineage is somehow relevent to how slavery has affected current black Americans.

Not what you said. What you said was "I am assuming that neither of you to have direct relatives that were slaves." You did not limit it to black ancestry, or 1619-2021.

I find this attitude to be prevalent among SJWs. slavery was only whites enslaving blacks and only in America and only from 1619 on. Not so.

Yes, the effects are diluted through time, but now we are 150 years past emancipation.

I'm aware of other instances of slavery. I thought it was obvious that I was referring to American slavery 1619-Emancipation. Sorry if I wasn't clear.

So do you feel that the overall effect of slavery on your life is pretty close to the overall effect of slavery on a 2021 American black person's life?

Considering the overarching effort of progressives and Democrats to keep slavery until the mid 1860s an issue I don't believe that is quite the cute and succinct point that you do.
(03-04-2021 12:09 PM)tanqtonic Wrote: [ -> ]
(03-04-2021 10:50 AM)Rice93 Wrote: [ -> ]
(03-04-2021 10:46 AM)OptimisticOwl Wrote: [ -> ]
(03-04-2021 09:20 AM)Rice93 Wrote: [ -> ]
(03-04-2021 01:17 AM)OptimisticOwl Wrote: [ -> ]How far back may we go? My ancestry is primarily British, German, and Spanish, all of which were enslaved by the Romans, and 3% Jewish, who were enslaved by the Egyptians, and 5% Native American, who enslaved each other. No telling how many ancestors I have who were slaves. In fact, given the prevalence of slavery throughout history and on every continent, I doubt there is any human on this earth who has zero slaves in their genealogical tree, including you, 93.

LOL that you equate how historical slavery in your remote lineage is somehow relevent to how slavery has affected current black Americans.

Not what you said. What you said was "I am assuming that neither of you to have direct relatives that were slaves." You did not limit it to black ancestry, or 1619-2021.

I find this attitude to be prevalent among SJWs. slavery was only whites enslaving blacks and only in America and only from 1619 on. Not so.

Yes, the effects are diluted through time, but now we are 150 years past emancipation.

I'm aware of other instances of slavery. I thought it was obvious that I was referring to American slavery 1619-Emancipation. Sorry if I wasn't clear.

So do you feel that the overall effect of slavery on your life is pretty close to the overall effect of slavery on a 2021 American black person's life?

Considering the overarching effort of progressives and Democrats to keep slavery until the mid 1860s an issue I don't believe that is quite the cute and succinct point that you do.

What does the current iteration of the Democratic party (let alone progressives) have to do with efforts to keep slavery in 1860?

Are you trying to draw a line between people of that party in 1860 and people today?
Another opinion came to my mind while reading some of the other posts...

People can CHOOSE to be offended by anything they want... yet words like 'the n word' (or to a lesser degree, cracker) have made it clear that while words have meaning, that the meaning can change based on intent.

We've all called our friends or even significant others jerks or a-holes or some other word that COULD be offensive, but not intended it in any way to offend... and they weren't offended by it. Similarly, we've all snuck a subtle dig in at someone we wanted to offend, but didn't necessarily want to be obvious about it. Maybe they missed the dig and we even chuckled at them not even knowing that we offended them.

Its the intent that really ultimately matters.... because even if you intended to offend me and I chose not to be offended, I am not offended... and if you didn't, but I choose to take offense, that's on me.

Of course, I wouldn't tell someone that they can't be offended by something and if they are, they are... but that is again where I come with the idea that someone who attends a school named for a person... who likely will display a ring or diploma bearing his name... etc etc.... I struggle to believe that they are really as offended as they claim to be by the association with the person if they have made a conscious choice to attend that school bearing his name... they clearly HAD a choice... but that the presence of that person's tomb or a statue or visage of him is just too great a burden to bear.

If you're going to distance the University from the man, it seems the first thing you'd do is change the name, not remove his statue.

I'd also note, not anyone who attended Rice in the past 30+ years did so expecting it to reflect 'racist' values.
(03-04-2021 01:03 PM)Hambone10 Wrote: [ -> ]Another opinion came to my mind while reading some of the other posts...
People can CHOOSE to be offended by anything they want... yet words like 'the n word' (or to a lesser degree, cracker) have made it clear that while words have meaning, that the meaning can change based on intent.
We've all called our friends or even significant others jerks or a-holes or some other word that COULD be offensive, but not intended it in any way to offend... and they weren't offended by it. Similarly, we've all snuck a subtle dig in at someone we wanted to offend, but didn't necessarily want to be obvious about it. Maybe they missed the dig and we even chuckled at them not even knowing that we offended them.
Its the intent that really ultimately matters.... because even if you intended to offend me and I chose not to be offended, I am not offended... and if you didn't, but I choose to take offense, that's on me.
Of course, I wouldn't tell someone that they can't be offended by something and if they are, they are... but that is again where I come with the idea that someone who attends a school named for a person... who likely will display a ring or diploma bearing his name... etc etc.... I struggle to believe that they are really as offended as they claim to be by the association with the person if they have made a conscious choice to attend that school bearing his name... they clearly HAD a choice... but that the presence of that person's tomb or a statue or visage of him is just too great a burden to bear.
If you're going to distance the University from the man, it seems the first thing you'd do is change the name, not remove his statue.
I'd also note, not anyone who attended Rice in the past 30+ years did so expecting it to reflect 'racist' values.

Bill James, the baseball Sabermetrics guru, has an interesting essay on this in his book on managers (one of my favorite reads), on the subject of Marge Schott.

Basically James (who leans pretty far left politically) advocates the position that being offended is a choice--anybody can choose to be offended by anything, or not. So instead of choosing to be offended by everything, focus on conducting your own behavior so as not to offend.
(03-04-2021 11:06 AM)OptimisticOwl Wrote: [ -> ]
(03-04-2021 10:42 AM)Rice93 Wrote: [ -> ]
(03-04-2021 10:38 AM)OptimisticOwl Wrote: [ -> ]
(03-04-2021 09:07 AM)RiceLad15 Wrote: [ -> ]
(03-04-2021 01:11 AM)OptimisticOwl Wrote: [ -> ]Not just racist, but ageist. Apparently I must STFU due to ethnicity and age.

Conservative victimhood strikes again!

Here is the conversation above, that you responded to directly:

"but I tend to listen to the black students who say that they are uncomfortable with the statue being in the quad"

"I'd be willing to hear someone explain this to me...."

You seriously took offense to saying that the Quad posters aren't either current or past black students?

You're certainly free to speak on this and offer your opinion. But that isn't really relevant to a conversation about hearing directly from black Rice students about their opinions...

I took offense to this statement:

Well... you're barking up the wrong tree on the Rice Parliament because it's certainly not going to be explained by a group of mostly middle-age and older white dudes.

the way I read it, I cannot give a salient opinion because I am too old and too white. How do you read it?

I would read it as NONE of us are going to be able to provide insight as to what makes some current black Rice students uncomfortable with the statue. I am also too old and too white to give a salient opinion on this topic.

And I guess none of us can give opinions on abortion or Cuomo's unwanted advances or Biden's creepy touch feelies because we are not women, so STFU. Yet we are fine with engineers giving legal advice and lawyers giving environmental opinions.

Ham specifically brought up the question as to what was going on inside black student's heads if they were uncomfortable with the statue. I responded that none of us here are likely to have good insight into that.

That is a far, far stretch from suggesting that lawyers should only comment on the law, engineers only on engineering, etc.

Quote:During my years on campus, I rarely passed the statue, and never thought to ponder how many people he did wrong to amass the fortune that was giving me a free education that my parents could not have afforded. I never assumed he led a pure and blameless life, by any standards, the standards of his time or the standards of my time there or the standards of now.

I have no personal connection with any of my ancestors past two generations. Not hard to imagine that my hispanic ancestors were discriminated against ,but I don't know. Perhaps WMR discriminated against "Mexicans" - it would not have been unusual in his day and age. So should I shudder every time I see my diploma with his name on it? I think it is largely an affectation. No current black student has ever met an American slave. That includes their family.

You continue to minimize how black people should feel about slavery. It seems that you feel that they should just get over it. You are certainly entitled to your opinion but it is not one that we share. I think that's why we are at-odds over this issue.

Quote:You didn't think that changing the name would ever be an issue - just move the statue to a backwater on the campus and everything ends there. But it doesn't. Every little step backwards (or forward, in your view) leads to another step. It does not end until history is rewritten.

I am fine with the history that WMR, and Geo. Washington, and T. Jefferson owned slaves. It is truth. I am fine with the history that A. Lincoln advocated sending the slaves back to Africa. it is the truth. What I am not fine with is writing those gentlemen out of history because of that.

Again... moving the statue to a less prominent place doesn't exactly write him out of history but I understand that you feel that it is a slippery slope.
Minor correction 93, not because it changes the tone or intent of your response, but because it more accurately reflects what I said... and on such a sensitive topic, I want to be clear...

I didn't specifically ask what you attributed to me... I would be willing to hear a compelling argument from ANYONE... I don't really play the 'it doesn't directly impact me so my opinion doesn't matter'... because (as an example) changing the name of Rice University would ABSOLUTELY impact me... but I would certainly admit that some opinions and rationale would carry more weight than others... at least regarding 'time and space specific' issues.

That's why I focus on the idea that while I understand that walking by a park and seeing a statue commemorating an avowed racist might be an unnecessary pick of an obvious wound... I don't want people to tell me why WMR offends them... I want them to tell me why they weren't offended enough to decline admission.

If instead of talking about moving a statue, you talk about changing the name of the University (and not from WMR Institute to WMR University or just Rice University, but to something that doesn't in ANY way commemorate the founder) then all of a sudden the lines (and whom falls on each side of it) get changed.
(03-04-2021 01:32 PM)Rice93 Wrote: [ -> ]Again... moving the statue to a less prominent place doesn't exactly write him out of history but I understand that you feel that it is a slippery slope.

I wouldn't call it a slippery slope as much as it is a symbolic move with no real purpose that I can see or understand. Why are they offended by a statue but not all of the OTHER mentions of Rice throughout campus and on every communication they get? How about the fact that they have an email address inextricably linked to a racist?

If you want to address the issue, you don't do it by moving a statue... you do it by eliminating the association between the man and the University
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