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(05-26-2021 09:57 AM)Rice93 Wrote: [ -> ]
(05-26-2021 09:45 AM)OptimisticOwl Wrote: [ -> ]
(05-26-2021 09:29 AM)Rice93 Wrote: [ -> ]
(05-26-2021 09:07 AM)OptimisticOwl Wrote: [ -> ]
(05-26-2021 12:49 AM)Rice93 Wrote: [ -> ][quote='OptimisticOwl' pid='17438824' dateline='1622003614']
We have strayed into a lot of little rabbit trails. We are tying ourselves into knots.

It really is simple.

The one question is this:

Is it OK to do bad things for good reasons, yes or no?

Yes or no? Really? That's quite a question.

I don't know... killing somebody is generally a bad thing however killing Hitler's German forces is generally considered pretty good. So in this situation I would say yes.

Somewhere, way back there, I said that there was a certain group of people who would answer "it depends", and SHAZAM!, here you are.

Wait... so you are good with saying an emphatic "No" to your own question? Where do you fall on my killing Nazi soldier example? That was the wrong thing to do?

Even in the Bible, where it says "Thou shalt not kill, there are lots of battles between armies. I don't consider every killing to be a sin, as I have made clear in the abortion discussions, where I define abortions as falling under the umbrella of legitimate killings". I certainly think that a police killing a gunman who is threatening other lives is OK, even if the gunman is black. I think back to a sermon I heard in my youth where the preacher said the proper translation for the Commandment was Thou shat not murder. Killing enemy soldiers in wartime is not considered murder; killing POWS is. I would not condone the killing of POWs even if there is a "good" reason.


Some killing is OK is some situations but it's not OK in some situations? Like it's a judgement call depending on the circumstances?

You made all killings to the same a predicate for your discussion, not mine.

I explained. I guess you missed it in your zeal to protect your option to support racist policies.

I do oppose all murders.

OK, 93, you have my permission to support racist policies. I choose not to. end of discussion.
(05-26-2021 09:57 AM)Owl 69/70/75 Wrote: [ -> ]
(05-26-2021 08:42 AM)Rice93 Wrote: [ -> ]My point is that there were and are certainly tons of Courtney Halls out there that could have been picked for some of these positions.

Actually, there weren't. Courtney was much more the exception than the rule. You had guys playing in the NFL who had not learned how to read and write, despite spending 4 years at a university. The crip majors employed by many of the P5 universities to keep athletes in school and eligible prepared them for exactly no productive endeavours in a market economy.

So the white college football players who ended up as GMs? How did they overcome this "football player stigma"? Or is this just a black football player thing?

Are you seriously arguing that there were not sufficient black college football graduates that had the requisite skills/brainpower to handle those positions? Nearly all of them were too dumb to handle these executive positions?

I bet if you look at the career arcs of black football players graduating from Rice 1977-1985 you could find more than a few who could handle it. Not to mention the Ivies/the military academies/Stanford/Northwestern, etc.

This is a crazy discussion. About half of college football players are black but you don't think you can find enough smart ones that could end up as GMs?
(05-26-2021 10:11 AM)Rice93 Wrote: [ -> ]
(05-26-2021 09:57 AM)Owl 69/70/75 Wrote: [ -> ]
(05-26-2021 08:42 AM)Rice93 Wrote: [ -> ]My point is that there were and are certainly tons of Courtney Halls out there that could have been picked for some of these positions.

Actually, there weren't. Courtney was much more the exception than the rule. You had guys playing in the NFL who had not learned how to read and write, despite spending 4 years at a university. The crip majors employed by many of the P5 universities to keep athletes in school and eligible prepared them for exactly no productive endeavours in a market economy.

So the white college football players who ended up as GMs? How did they overcome this "football player stigma"? Or is this just a black football player thing?

Are you seriously arguing that there were not sufficient black college football graduates that had the requisite skills/brainpower to handle those positions? Nearly all of them were too dumb to handle these executive positions?

I bet if you look at the career arcs of black football players graduating from Rice 1977-1985 you could find more than a few who could handle it. Not to mention the Ivies/the military academies/Stanford/Northwestern, etc.

This is a crazy discussion. About half of college football players are black but you don't think you can find enough smart ones that could end up as GMs?

I have never met Numbers, but I can say I think your allegations about what he has said are wildly off base.

For myself, I will say that in 1982 there were not many black former players who had the resumes to be hired at top jobs, because they hadn't served in lower level jobs.
(05-26-2021 10:19 AM)OptimisticOwl Wrote: [ -> ]
(05-26-2021 10:11 AM)Rice93 Wrote: [ -> ]
(05-26-2021 09:57 AM)Owl 69/70/75 Wrote: [ -> ]
(05-26-2021 08:42 AM)Rice93 Wrote: [ -> ]My point is that there were and are certainly tons of Courtney Halls out there that could have been picked for some of these positions.

Actually, there weren't. Courtney was much more the exception than the rule. You had guys playing in the NFL who had not learned how to read and write, despite spending 4 years at a university. The crip majors employed by many of the P5 universities to keep athletes in school and eligible prepared them for exactly no productive endeavours in a market economy.

So the white college football players who ended up as GMs? How did they overcome this "football player stigma"? Or is this just a black football player thing?

Are you seriously arguing that there were not sufficient black college football graduates that had the requisite skills/brainpower to handle those positions? Nearly all of them were too dumb to handle these executive positions?

I bet if you look at the career arcs of black football players graduating from Rice 1977-1985 you could find more than a few who could handle it. Not to mention the Ivies/the military academies/Stanford/Northwestern, etc.

This is a crazy discussion. About half of college football players are black but you don't think you can find enough smart ones that could end up as GMs?

I have never met Numbers, but I can say I think your allegations about what he has said are wildly off base.

For myself, I will say that in 1982 there were not many black former players who had the resumes to be hired at top jobs, because they hadn't served in lower level jobs.

Did you see the part where he said there weren't many qualified black football players because (in his words):

"Actually, there weren't. Courtney was much more the exception than the rule. You had guys playing in the NFL who had not learned how to read and write, despite spending 4 years at a university. "
(05-26-2021 10:19 AM)OptimisticOwl Wrote: [ -> ]
(05-26-2021 10:11 AM)Rice93 Wrote: [ -> ]
(05-26-2021 09:57 AM)Owl 69/70/75 Wrote: [ -> ]
(05-26-2021 08:42 AM)Rice93 Wrote: [ -> ]My point is that there were and are certainly tons of Courtney Halls out there that could have been picked for some of these positions.

Actually, there weren't. Courtney was much more the exception than the rule. You had guys playing in the NFL who had not learned how to read and write, despite spending 4 years at a university. The crip majors employed by many of the P5 universities to keep athletes in school and eligible prepared them for exactly no productive endeavours in a market economy.

So the white college football players who ended up as GMs? How did they overcome this "football player stigma"? Or is this just a black football player thing?

Are you seriously arguing that there were not sufficient black college football graduates that had the requisite skills/brainpower to handle those positions? Nearly all of them were too dumb to handle these executive positions?

I bet if you look at the career arcs of black football players graduating from Rice 1977-1985 you could find more than a few who could handle it. Not to mention the Ivies/the military academies/Stanford/Northwestern, etc.

This is a crazy discussion. About half of college football players are black but you don't think you can find enough smart ones that could end up as GMs?

I have never met Numbers, but I can say I think your allegations about what he has said are wildly off base.

For myself, I will say that in 1982 there were not many black former players who had the resumes to be hired at top jobs, because they hadn't served in lower level jobs.

So why weren't those black former players getting the lower level jobs in the 1970s that the white former players were getting?
(05-26-2021 10:22 AM)Rice93 Wrote: [ -> ]
(05-26-2021 10:19 AM)OptimisticOwl Wrote: [ -> ]
(05-26-2021 10:11 AM)Rice93 Wrote: [ -> ]
(05-26-2021 09:57 AM)Owl 69/70/75 Wrote: [ -> ]
(05-26-2021 08:42 AM)Rice93 Wrote: [ -> ]My point is that there were and are certainly tons of Courtney Halls out there that could have been picked for some of these positions.

Actually, there weren't. Courtney was much more the exception than the rule. You had guys playing in the NFL who had not learned how to read and write, despite spending 4 years at a university. The crip majors employed by many of the P5 universities to keep athletes in school and eligible prepared them for exactly no productive endeavours in a market economy.

So the white college football players who ended up as GMs? How did they overcome this "football player stigma"? Or is this just a black football player thing?

Are you seriously arguing that there were not sufficient black college football graduates that had the requisite skills/brainpower to handle those positions? Nearly all of them were too dumb to handle these executive positions?

I bet if you look at the career arcs of black football players graduating from Rice 1977-1985 you could find more than a few who could handle it. Not to mention the Ivies/the military academies/Stanford/Northwestern, etc.

This is a crazy discussion. About half of college football players are black but you don't think you can find enough smart ones that could end up as GMs?

I have never met Numbers, but I can say I think your allegations about what he has said are wildly off base.

For myself, I will say that in 1982 there were not many black former players who had the resumes to be hired at top jobs, because they hadn't served in lower level jobs.

Did you see the part where he said there weren't many qualified black football players because (in his words):

"Actually, there weren't. Courtney was much more the exception than the rule. You had guys playing in the NFL who had not learned how to read and write, despite spending 4 years at a university. "

Dexter Manley

James Brooks

illiterate athletes
(05-26-2021 10:26 AM)Rice93 Wrote: [ -> ]
(05-26-2021 10:19 AM)OptimisticOwl Wrote: [ -> ]
(05-26-2021 10:11 AM)Rice93 Wrote: [ -> ]
(05-26-2021 09:57 AM)Owl 69/70/75 Wrote: [ -> ]
(05-26-2021 08:42 AM)Rice93 Wrote: [ -> ]My point is that there were and are certainly tons of Courtney Halls out there that could have been picked for some of these positions.

Actually, there weren't. Courtney was much more the exception than the rule. You had guys playing in the NFL who had not learned how to read and write, despite spending 4 years at a university. The crip majors employed by many of the P5 universities to keep athletes in school and eligible prepared them for exactly no productive endeavours in a market economy.

So the white college football players who ended up as GMs? How did they overcome this "football player stigma"? Or is this just a black football player thing?

Are you seriously arguing that there were not sufficient black college football graduates that had the requisite skills/brainpower to handle those positions? Nearly all of them were too dumb to handle these executive positions?

I bet if you look at the career arcs of black football players graduating from Rice 1977-1985 you could find more than a few who could handle it. Not to mention the Ivies/the military academies/Stanford/Northwestern, etc.

This is a crazy discussion. About half of college football players are black but you don't think you can find enough smart ones that could end up as GMs?

I have never met Numbers, but I can say I think your allegations about what he has said are wildly off base.

For myself, I will say that in 1982 there were not many black former players who had the resumes to be hired at top jobs, because they hadn't served in lower level jobs.

So why weren't those black former players getting the lower level jobs in the 1970s that the white former players were getting?

As I said in post 616...oh, you can read it for yourself.
(05-26-2021 10:33 AM)OptimisticOwl Wrote: [ -> ]
(05-26-2021 10:26 AM)Rice93 Wrote: [ -> ]
(05-26-2021 10:19 AM)OptimisticOwl Wrote: [ -> ]
(05-26-2021 10:11 AM)Rice93 Wrote: [ -> ]
(05-26-2021 09:57 AM)Owl 69/70/75 Wrote: [ -> ]Actually, there weren't. Courtney was much more the exception than the rule. You had guys playing in the NFL who had not learned how to read and write, despite spending 4 years at a university. The crip majors employed by many of the P5 universities to keep athletes in school and eligible prepared them for exactly no productive endeavours in a market economy.

So the white college football players who ended up as GMs? How did they overcome this "football player stigma"? Or is this just a black football player thing?

Are you seriously arguing that there were not sufficient black college football graduates that had the requisite skills/brainpower to handle those positions? Nearly all of them were too dumb to handle these executive positions?

I bet if you look at the career arcs of black football players graduating from Rice 1977-1985 you could find more than a few who could handle it. Not to mention the Ivies/the military academies/Stanford/Northwestern, etc.

This is a crazy discussion. About half of college football players are black but you don't think you can find enough smart ones that could end up as GMs?

I have never met Numbers, but I can say I think your allegations about what he has said are wildly off base.

For myself, I will say that in 1982 there were not many black former players who had the resumes to be hired at top jobs, because they hadn't served in lower level jobs.

So why weren't those black former players getting the lower level jobs in the 1970s that the white former players were getting?

As I said in post 616...oh, you can read it for yourself.

This part?

"People have had to "pay their dues", working in lower level positions, learning the craft, and succeeding in their work. In 1982, there was a paucity of such black people - it was growing, but few had made it to the level of experience to be considered. 93 wants them to have been hired solely for their race and playing experience."

Help me understand your point. Black people were not interested in these positions in the 1970s and so none of them were "paying their dues" that would be required to become a GM? Or something else was going on in the 1970s like racism/unconscious bias that led the black players from being excluded from these entry-level positions? Or there weren't enough black people with the requisite smarts/education to fill these stepping-stone positions? Why were white ex-college football players finding themselves in these positions but not black ones?
(05-26-2021 10:33 AM)OptimisticOwl Wrote: [ -> ]
(05-26-2021 10:22 AM)Rice93 Wrote: [ -> ]
(05-26-2021 10:19 AM)OptimisticOwl Wrote: [ -> ]
(05-26-2021 10:11 AM)Rice93 Wrote: [ -> ]
(05-26-2021 09:57 AM)Owl 69/70/75 Wrote: [ -> ]Actually, there weren't. Courtney was much more the exception than the rule. You had guys playing in the NFL who had not learned how to read and write, despite spending 4 years at a university. The crip majors employed by many of the P5 universities to keep athletes in school and eligible prepared them for exactly no productive endeavours in a market economy.

So the white college football players who ended up as GMs? How did they overcome this "football player stigma"? Or is this just a black football player thing?

Are you seriously arguing that there were not sufficient black college football graduates that had the requisite skills/brainpower to handle those positions? Nearly all of them were too dumb to handle these executive positions?

I bet if you look at the career arcs of black football players graduating from Rice 1977-1985 you could find more than a few who could handle it. Not to mention the Ivies/the military academies/Stanford/Northwestern, etc.

This is a crazy discussion. About half of college football players are black but you don't think you can find enough smart ones that could end up as GMs?

I have never met Numbers, but I can say I think your allegations about what he has said are wildly off base.

For myself, I will say that in 1982 there were not many black former players who had the resumes to be hired at top jobs, because they hadn't served in lower level jobs.

Did you see the part where he said there weren't many qualified black football players because (in his words):

"Actually, there weren't. Courtney was much more the exception than the rule. You had guys playing in the NFL who had not learned how to read and write, despite spending 4 years at a university. "

Dexter Manley

James Brooks

illiterate athletes

Yeah I know. What's your point?

Do you think nearly ALL of them fell into this category? How about the military academy graduates? Illiterate? Do you think the majority of black Rice football players from the 1970's and 1980's were illiterate? Harvard football players?
(05-26-2021 09:57 AM)Owl 69/70/75 Wrote: [ -> ]
(05-26-2021 08:42 AM)Rice93 Wrote: [ -> ]My point is that there were and are certainly tons of Courtney Halls out there that could have been picked for some of these positions.

Actually, there weren't. Courtney was much more the exception than the rule. You had guys playing in the NFL who had not learned how to read and write, despite spending 4 years at a university. The crip majors employed by many of the P5 universities to keep athletes in school and eligible prepared them for exactly no productive endeavours in a market economy.

And my point was that while Courtney could have done anything he wanted.... he CHOSE not to work in Professional sports.

Using Courtney as an example is precisely why such comparisons fail. He COULD have done anything, and CHOSE to do something else.

MAYBE he chose to do something else because the situation in pro sports is racist... or MAYBE he chose to do something else because he'd been on one side of the coin and didn't want to be on the other... or MAYBE he just wanted to do something different?? Maybe he wanted to expand his horizons?? Maybe he wanted to teach his kids that 'sports' weren't their only value?? I don't know, but he had many many options and made a different choice. I'm looking for the racism there?? Why does this need to be 'fixed'? Isn't the fact that he had many options and made a different choice exactly what the goal of equality is?

MAYBE many of the former players who go into sports management are used to 'their name' meaning more than their mental abilities. I can think of a few people right now who fit that description. They want to do a commercial or pitch a product, not build a business or work 60 our weeks. Maybe they made so much as players that they really don't want to work hard?? They're certainly capable, but they're not committed. I can think of a few people right now who fit that description. THEN you get down to those who have both like Courtney, but want to do something else. MAYBE he didn't want to go into sports because a great former athlete who is also a great businessman is more rare than a great former athlete who stays in sports, perhaps precisely because they AREN'T great businessmen?

More to my earlier point... and merging two thoughts...
Who needs help more? A guy like Courtney? Who surely faced racism in his life, but overcame... or the guy who can't get an education because of where he lives?? While certainly you'd want to help the guy with multiple barriers before the guy with 'one', what if it came down to helping Malia Obama or a poor white kid from West Virginia?? ESPECIALLY if that poor white kid is more inclined to be or become a racist and violent extremist without education?

You want to end racism?? Stop putting 'race' ABOVE 'need' when it comes to assistance. NOT that it isn't part of the conversation, just that its not a trump card. This should have been the lesson of the civil war and reconstruction... where the Klan was basically founded by white people who couldn't get work because their positions had been eliminated and the 'new' positions were being filled by former slaves. Jealousy, whether justified or not is one hell of a motivator.... and an easy sell for exploiters
(05-26-2021 10:42 AM)Rice93 Wrote: [ -> ]
(05-26-2021 10:33 AM)OptimisticOwl Wrote: [ -> ]
(05-26-2021 10:22 AM)Rice93 Wrote: [ -> ]
(05-26-2021 10:19 AM)OptimisticOwl Wrote: [ -> ]
(05-26-2021 10:11 AM)Rice93 Wrote: [ -> ]So the white college football players who ended up as GMs? How did they overcome this "football player stigma"? Or is this just a black football player thing?

Are you seriously arguing that there were not sufficient black college football graduates that had the requisite skills/brainpower to handle those positions? Nearly all of them were too dumb to handle these executive positions?

I bet if you look at the career arcs of black football players graduating from Rice 1977-1985 you could find more than a few who could handle it. Not to mention the Ivies/the military academies/Stanford/Northwestern, etc.

This is a crazy discussion. About half of college football players are black but you don't think you can find enough smart ones that could end up as GMs?

I have never met Numbers, but I can say I think your allegations about what he has said are wildly off base.

For myself, I will say that in 1982 there were not many black former players who had the resumes to be hired at top jobs, because they hadn't served in lower level jobs.

Did you see the part where he said there weren't many qualified black football players because (in his words):

"Actually, there weren't. Courtney was much more the exception than the rule. You had guys playing in the NFL who had not learned how to read and write, despite spending 4 years at a university. "

Dexter Manley

James Brooks

illiterate athletes

Yeah I know. What's your point?

Do you think nearly ALL of them fell into this category? How about the military academy graduates? Illiterate? Do you think the majority of black Rice football players from the 1970's and 1980's were illiterate? Harvard football players?

It's all or nothing with you, isn't it?

Just saying the pool of qualified players is smaller than you might think. The sub-pool of those wanting a career in athletics administration even smaller.

The military grads went on to careers in the military. I know of none who became GMs.

I think most of our football players, as well as players from the Ivies and other top schools, went on to careers in other than athletics. If they majored in engineering or went to med school, they were unlikely to be applying for jobs as assistant ADs.

Now stop characterizing everything as all or none.

And yes, I think Courtney was exceptional. In every way, all his life.
(05-26-2021 10:58 AM)Hambone10 Wrote: [ -> ]
(05-26-2021 09:57 AM)Owl 69/70/75 Wrote: [ -> ]
(05-26-2021 08:42 AM)Rice93 Wrote: [ -> ]My point is that there were and are certainly tons of Courtney Halls out there that could have been picked for some of these positions.

Actually, there weren't. Courtney was much more the exception than the rule. You had guys playing in the NFL who had not learned how to read and write, despite spending 4 years at a university. The crip majors employed by many of the P5 universities to keep athletes in school and eligible prepared them for exactly no productive endeavours in a market economy.

And my point was that while Courtney could have done anything he wanted.... he CHOSE not to work in Professional sports.

Using Courtney as an example is precisely why such comparisons fail. He COULD have done anything, and CHOSE to do something else.

MAYBE he chose to do something else because the situation in pro sports is racist... or MAYBE he chose to do something else because he'd been on one side of the coin and didn't want to be on the other... or MAYBE he just wanted to do something different?? Maybe he wanted to expand his horizons?? Maybe he wanted to teach his kids that 'sports' weren't their only value?? I don't know, but he had many many options and made a different choice. I'm looking for the racism there?? Why does this need to be 'fixed'? Isn't the fact that he had many options and made a different choice exactly what the goal of equality is?

MAYBE many of the former players who go into sports management are used to 'their name' meaning more than their mental abilities. I can think of a few people right now who fit that description. They want to do a commercial or pitch a product, not build a business or work 60 our weeks. Maybe they made so much as players that they really don't want to work hard?? They're certainly capable, but they're not committed. I can think of a few people right now who fit that description. THEN you get down to those who have both like Courtney, but want to do something else. MAYBE he didn't want to go into sports because a great former athlete who is also a great businessman is more rare than a great former athlete who stays in sports, perhaps precisely because they AREN'T great businessmen?

But don't your points hold true for white football players as well? So if half of college football players are black and half are white, why are there so few black GMS (noting that the vast majority of GMs played college football).

Quote:More to my earlier point... and merging two thoughts...
Who needs help more? A guy like Courtney? Who surely faced racism in his life, but overcame... or the guy who can't get an education because of where he lives?? While certainly you'd want to help the guy with multiple barriers before the guy with 'one', what if it came down to helping Malia Obama or a poor white kid from West Virginia?? ESPECIALLY if that poor white kid is more inclined to be or become a racist and violent extremist without education?

Agree (as I have done before). Which is (as I've stated before) these admissions/hiring practices should not be strictly about race.

Quote:You want to end racism?? Stop putting 'race' ABOVE 'need' when it comes to assistance. NOT that it isn't part of the conversation, just that its not a trump card. This should have been the lesson of the civil war and reconstruction... where the Klan was basically founded by white people who couldn't get work because their positions had been eliminated and the 'new' positions were being filled by former slaves. Jealousy, whether justified or not is one hell of a motivator.... and an easy sell for exploiters

I don't think the source of racism is just need and jealousy. I agree that those contribute. There are, however, plenty of well-off racists.
(05-26-2021 11:03 AM)OptimisticOwl Wrote: [ -> ]
(05-26-2021 10:42 AM)Rice93 Wrote: [ -> ]
(05-26-2021 10:33 AM)OptimisticOwl Wrote: [ -> ]
(05-26-2021 10:22 AM)Rice93 Wrote: [ -> ]
(05-26-2021 10:19 AM)OptimisticOwl Wrote: [ -> ]I have never met Numbers, but I can say I think your allegations about what he has said are wildly off base.

For myself, I will say that in 1982 there were not many black former players who had the resumes to be hired at top jobs, because they hadn't served in lower level jobs.

Did you see the part where he said there weren't many qualified black football players because (in his words):

"Actually, there weren't. Courtney was much more the exception than the rule. You had guys playing in the NFL who had not learned how to read and write, despite spending 4 years at a university. "

Dexter Manley

James Brooks

illiterate athletes

Yeah I know. What's your point?

Do you think nearly ALL of them fell into this category? How about the military academy graduates? Illiterate? Do you think the majority of black Rice football players from the 1970's and 1980's were illiterate? Harvard football players?

It's all or nothing with you, isn't it?

Just saying the pool of qualified players is smaller than you might think. The sub-pool of those wanting a career in athletics administration even smaller.

But most of the GM's were former college football players. White ones. Why has it worked for the white former players but not the black ones? Are the qualified pools different for the two races?

Quote:The military grads went on to careers in the military. I know of none who became GMs.

Tons of military grads serve their few years and go on to different careers.

Quote:I think most of our football players, as well as players from the Ivies and other top schools, went on to careers in other than athletics. If they majored in engineering or went to med school, they were unlikely to be applying for jobs as assistant ADs.

But white former players have entered the pathway to become NFL executives. What's the difference with black former players?
(05-26-2021 11:09 AM)Rice93 Wrote: [ -> ]But don't your points hold true for white football players as well? So if half of college football players are black and half are white, why are there so few black GMS (noting that the vast majority of GMs played college football).

a qualified Yes, but the argument is that black athletes make up say 30% of rosters (or more in the NBA) but only say 10% of the front office.... and only 13% of the population (since being a successful player isn't a qualification for running or owning a team)

That's not the case for white players.... where they are say 50% of the population, but only 30% of the rosters. As I said, when over-represented in one area, you are by definition going to be under-represented somewhere else.... and in this case, the competition for 'elite' people like Courtney, ESPECIALLY of color gives them many more options than simply moving to the front office after working in the back.

Quote:Agree (as I have done before). Which is (as I've stated before) these admissions/hiring practices should not be strictly about race.

Sure and I get that, but you're not 'the left'. You're simply one member of the left, and one with a relative minority position on it.

Much of affirmative action is SOLELY about race or some other single indicator, and NEVER about 'the whole person' and certainly not about 'your financial situation'.... especially in the court of public opinion, which is what I'm speaking to.

The fact that you and i agree and yet we both know its not working (not enough or too much) tells you that we don't have much of a voice in this.

Quote:I don't think the source of racism is just need and jealousy. I agree that those contribute. There are, however, plenty of well-off racists.
You miss the point and I'll take the blame for that.... but my point is clear based on how I said it, consistent with the following....

Racism (in every direction) is about exploitation. The greedy want someone to exploit, so they tell the poor white guy that the reason he doesn't have a job is because the black guy is taking it from him.... That's what created the Klan... and AA, when focusing solely on race such that Obama's kids get preferential treatment over a poor white kid from Appalachia doesn't NEED and kindling to start a fire.

The two sides of the argument are that Republicans are the ones feeding that poor white kids hate... lighting the match.... That's what dems often scream (maybe not in so many words, but that's it) but Democrats are the one who are dousing them in gasoline before doing so through their policies. Eliminate the gasoline and the hate is vastly harder to light, and more importantly... FIXES more of societies ills... because calm people like you and I agree that race shouldn't remotely be the only factor. You address the NEED, which may or may not include RACE.

So why doesn't it happen? Don't tell me that it doesn't happen because lots of Republicans don't want it, unless you admit that lots of democrats don't either. This should be bipartisan... And Obama (or now Harris) are the perfect people to manage it. For Trump to do it would only fuel the left and you know it.
(05-26-2021 10:26 AM)Rice93 Wrote: [ -> ]
(05-26-2021 10:19 AM)OptimisticOwl Wrote: [ -> ]
(05-26-2021 10:11 AM)Rice93 Wrote: [ -> ]
(05-26-2021 09:57 AM)Owl 69/70/75 Wrote: [ -> ]
(05-26-2021 08:42 AM)Rice93 Wrote: [ -> ]My point is that there were and are certainly tons of Courtney Halls out there that could have been picked for some of these positions.

Actually, there weren't. Courtney was much more the exception than the rule. You had guys playing in the NFL who had not learned how to read and write, despite spending 4 years at a university. The crip majors employed by many of the P5 universities to keep athletes in school and eligible prepared them for exactly no productive endeavours in a market economy.

So the white college football players who ended up as GMs? How did they overcome this "football player stigma"? Or is this just a black football player thing?

Are you seriously arguing that there were not sufficient black college football graduates that had the requisite skills/brainpower to handle those positions? Nearly all of them were too dumb to handle these executive positions?

I bet if you look at the career arcs of black football players graduating from Rice 1977-1985 you could find more than a few who could handle it. Not to mention the Ivies/the military academies/Stanford/Northwestern, etc.

This is a crazy discussion. About half of college football players are black but you don't think you can find enough smart ones that could end up as GMs?

I have never met Numbers, but I can say I think your allegations about what he has said are wildly off base.

For myself, I will say that in 1982 there were not many black former players who had the resumes to be hired at top jobs, because they hadn't served in lower level jobs.

So why weren't those black former players getting the lower level jobs in the 1970s that the white former players were getting?

I don't know and neither do you, but you assume it was discrimination.

I've been passed over for jobs and promotions and have struggled to understand why. At one point my then wife suggested I change the spelling of my surname to something more 'British'. That sounds like she thought it was discrimination. When my applications were rejected because I didn't have any British qualifications - GCSEs or A-Levels or that the HR personnel have never heard of Rice University, a neighbour remarked "Sometimes the English can be very parochial."

No doubt that there are ideal candidates for every job, but matching the two up is anything but a certainty. Did a candidate apply? If not, why? How did the application compare? If poorly, why? How well did the candidate represent themselves in the interview process? etc., etc.

Dictating the outcomes is not the answer. Affirmative Action has been around for over forty years. It doesn't work. The problem with government intervention is that it will only lead to one thing, more government intervention.

The idea that there were tons of Courtney Halls out there is ludicrous, hyperbolic, and disrespectful. But I'm looking at an individual and you're not.
(05-26-2021 11:40 AM)MerseyOwl Wrote: [ -> ]
(05-26-2021 10:26 AM)Rice93 Wrote: [ -> ]
(05-26-2021 10:19 AM)OptimisticOwl Wrote: [ -> ]
(05-26-2021 10:11 AM)Rice93 Wrote: [ -> ]
(05-26-2021 09:57 AM)Owl 69/70/75 Wrote: [ -> ]Actually, there weren't. Courtney was much more the exception than the rule. You had guys playing in the NFL who had not learned how to read and write, despite spending 4 years at a university. The crip majors employed by many of the P5 universities to keep athletes in school and eligible prepared them for exactly no productive endeavours in a market economy.

So the white college football players who ended up as GMs? How did they overcome this "football player stigma"? Or is this just a black football player thing?

Are you seriously arguing that there were not sufficient black college football graduates that had the requisite skills/brainpower to handle those positions? Nearly all of them were too dumb to handle these executive positions?

I bet if you look at the career arcs of black football players graduating from Rice 1977-1985 you could find more than a few who could handle it. Not to mention the Ivies/the military academies/Stanford/Northwestern, etc.

This is a crazy discussion. About half of college football players are black but you don't think you can find enough smart ones that could end up as GMs?

I have never met Numbers, but I can say I think your allegations about what he has said are wildly off base.

For myself, I will say that in 1982 there were not many black former players who had the resumes to be hired at top jobs, because they hadn't served in lower level jobs.

So why weren't those black former players getting the lower level jobs in the 1970s that the white former players were getting?

I don't know and neither do you, but you assume it was discrimination.

I've been passed over for jobs and promotions and have struggled to understand why. At one point my then wife suggested I change the spelling of my surname to something more 'British'. That sounds like she thought it was discrimination. When my applications were rejected because I didn't have any British qualifications - GCSEs or A-Levels or that the HR personnel have never heard of Rice University, a neighbour remarked "Sometimes the English can be very parochial."

Yes. It happens. When you look at the history of black GMs in the NFL it doesn't seem to happen randomly, though. Do you think subconscious or conscious bias may play a part in the historical dearth of black executives when it comes to these leagues?

Quote:No doubt that there are ideal candidates for every job, but matching the two up is anything but a certainty. Did a candidate apply? If not, why? How did the application compare? If poorly, why? How well did the candidate represent themselves in the interview process? etc., etc.

Dictating the outcomes is not the answer. Affirmative Action has been around for over forty years. It doesn't work. The problem with government intervention is that it will only lead to one thing, more government intervention.

So what do you do? Say it's the 70's and 80s and there are no black executives in the NFL/NBA. What do you do? I am assuming here that you have black candidates for those positions that would like to be on that executive pathway.

Quote:The idea that there were tons of Courtney Halls out there is ludicrous, hyperbolic, and disrespectful. But I'm looking at an individual and you're not.

Obviously I meant no disrespect to Courtney Hall who was, by all accounts, an amazing person. I was in no way trying to suggest that he was "a dime a dozen". I was simply suggesting that there are plenty of impressive black former college football players with the education/brainpower/drive to compete with their white counterparts when it comes to these executive positions. To suggest otherwise is also ludicrous, hyperbolic, and disrespectful if not frankly racist.

I feel that many here are majorly contorting themselves to avoid saying that any level of bias could account for these historical discrepancies. If you admit there was and is bias in play, then it's hard to simply say "everybody is the same... no special treatment or programs."
Is unconscious bias in hiring not real?
(05-26-2021 11:22 AM)Rice93 Wrote: [ -> ]But white former players have entered the pathway to become NFL executives. What's the difference with black former players?

Are they disproportional to the specific populations?? By that I mean, a kid who gets cut from the college team/doesn't play might find himself still wanting to be involved. The kid who plays is already involved. Doesn't that give the guy who stayed involved but didn't play an advantage??

Now throw in something else which I've tried to address...
The concentration of poor black people in areas of low opportunity and the intentional eschewing of gentrification, even by people of color creates situations where things like being a successful athlete as opposed to a successful business manager are much more likely, which leads to choices that impact their entire lives.
(05-26-2021 01:33 PM)Hambone10 Wrote: [ -> ]
(05-26-2021 11:22 AM)Rice93 Wrote: [ -> ]But white former players have entered the pathway to become NFL executives. What's the difference with black former players?

Are they disproportional to the specific populations?? By that I mean, a kid who gets cut from the college team/doesn't play might find himself still wanting to be involved. The kid who plays is already involved. Doesn't that give the guy who stayed involved but didn't play an advantage??

Now throw in something else which I've tried to address...
The concentration of poor black people in areas of low opportunity and the intentional eschewing of gentrification, even by people of color creates situations where things like being a successful athlete as opposed to a successful business manager are much more likely, which leads to choices that impact their entire lives.

I agree with these possible discrepancies between a white college football player and a black football player's experiences. However... there are hundreds (thousands?) of black players on college football rosters that don't play.

I feel very confident that there were and are plenty of good black candidates from various economic strata.

Ham, do you think that bias plays any role in the historical dearth of black executives in these leagues?
(05-26-2021 01:37 PM)Rice93 Wrote: [ -> ]
(05-26-2021 01:33 PM)Hambone10 Wrote: [ -> ]
(05-26-2021 11:22 AM)Rice93 Wrote: [ -> ]But white former players have entered the pathway to become NFL executives. What's the difference with black former players?

Are they disproportional to the specific populations?? By that I mean, a kid who gets cut from the college team/doesn't play might find himself still wanting to be involved. The kid who plays is already involved. Doesn't that give the guy who stayed involved but didn't play an advantage??

Now throw in something else which I've tried to address...
The concentration of poor black people in areas of low opportunity and the intentional eschewing of gentrification, even by people of color creates situations where things like being a successful athlete as opposed to a successful business manager are much more likely, which leads to choices that impact their entire lives.

I agree with these possible discrepancies between a white college football player and a black football player's experiences. However... there are hundreds (thousands?) of black players on college football rosters that don't play.

And even more industries seeking them as employees.


Quote:I feel very confident that there were and are plenty of good black candidates from various economic strata.

Sure, but why do you think there is a correlation between playing sports and wanting to be involved on the other side of sports? Just because they are 'good', does that mean they're the best candidates?? Even when you factor in historical opportunities?? This is what I mean by having some sort of base qualifications and everything beyond that is moot.
Quote:Ham, do you think that bias plays any role in the historical dearth of black executives in these leagues?
Sure... but why is a measure of success for them being executives in the league and not being doctors or bankers or politicians or executives with companies who buy suites at football games or any of a myriad of other careers that people consider 'successful'??

Maybe they are under-represented in the front office specifically because they are over-represented on the field/court?? You can't have both... the math doesn't work... that's a trade off... and you SURE can't if you throw in the number of people from say 50+ years ago who were perhaps given poor educational opportunities.

I don't know how to say this, but you can't fix what happened years ago... you can only fix what happens going forward... so unless you're going to let someone be a doctor, despite the fact that they didn't go to medical school because 50 years ago, they would have been denied admission because of their race, but they've been a nurse for years now... then why would that not apply to all sorts of situations?? Sure, you can and should factor that in and at the margin it can make a difference... sort of like substituting being a player for 3 years of experience as an administrator or something... but you can't just ignore the differences between people. These are things much more easily done 'within' a company and not at the top.

I am ALL FOR trying to balance historical opportunities for an INDIVIDUAL where someone with few opportunities who did well that would make him more competitive with someone who had numerous opportunities who did only slightly better etc etc... but what I'm NOT in favor of is assuming so much about someone's background based solely on race. That the discrimination that say Barack Obama's children have faced means that they should not only have all of the advantages of their father and his position, but even more over a kid whose dad is a dirt farmer and mom a meth addict actually scored better than the Obama kids did.... simply because he's white.

Judge people by the quality of their character (which is an individual determination) and not the color of their skin (which is not). If that is what is happening and a candidate with few opportunities is given deference over a candidate with many, I'm all for that. If we simply decide that x% of the hires need to be of a certain color, I'm not.
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