CSNbbs

I believe Longhorn served on faculty in JMU’s History Dept.

(06-30-2020 01:14 PM)RamDawg Wrote: [ -> ]

(06-29-2020 03:40 PM)JacksonHall Wrote: [ -> ]Colleges have been full of Leftists since the 60s when people went to college to hide from going to Vietnam. Not surprising that JMU is among the liberal crowd. My point isn't so much dont change the building names as it is dont be a half-ass about it. If it's about taking an eraser to white people and their religion and their slave owning and whatever else they can think of, then change the damn university name. Get it over with, becaise these people aren't going to stop with a few buildings or statues. It's about hunting down cause and effect. And there is no ultimate cause of anything....just turtles all the way down.

All of a sudden, names on buildings are offensive, "look at me, the almighty Oz" leadership forcing employee's to make "woke" statements they would otherwise choose to keep more private or deal with at the team level. I don't support any person, business, organization the purposely attempts to alienate and divide people so my family has decided to cease financial support of JMU until hopefully the powers to be come to realize their jobs, at a public university are to educate young people.

Extremely well said! And, I support your defunding decision. It's the only way to stop the stupidity.

(06-30-2020 02:24 PM)RamDawg Wrote: [ -> ]

(06-28-2020 11:13 AM)Longhorn Wrote: [ -> ]

(06-27-2020 05:22 PM)Purple Wrote: [ -> ]I have read your "source documents," but they do not change my mind nor do they change what actually happened.
Remember, the South did not start the Civil War. It started when the North fired on Fort Sumter.

WTF?

OMG

Seriously P, put down the sauce. You’re embarrassing yourself.

Ummm I'm certainly not a "history Guy" but Honest Abe was pissed because the south left the union and stopped paying taxes and would hurt the commodities supply. A.L. says the south can't leave the union and launched some cannon balls over Fort Sumter. Abe really didn't want a war but the south called his bluff.

A few years ago I believe it was the History Channel did a series on the civil war, (maybe called Grant??) I think based on a book Making a Nation (or something like that)

If I recall correctly, Grant actually owned slaves, gifted from his father. R.E. Lee did not own slaves and actually freed slaves that we're owned by his family when he became an adult.

You learned that misinformation at VCU? You certainly didn’t learn it at JMU. Perhaps you went to the same school of alternative facts as P?

Two facts. Grant married into a family from KY with slaves. Grant’s father (or his blood relations) did not own slaves. Ever. The only evidence of Grant controlling a slave was Grant giving the slave his freedom in 1859. Lee, on the other hand, did own slaves, was raised in a household dependent on slave labor, and fought in court to maintain ownership of his working slaves. Lee subsequently married into a family with more slaves. Lee did not free his slaves of his own goodwill. Ever. That is until the outcome of the Civil War, which settled that question quite completely.

Oh, and it’s incontrovertible that the first shots fired on Fort Sumter were by Southern men commanded by Pierre Beauregard, more commonly known as P.G. T. Beauregard, who the newly formed Confederate government placed in command of the defense of Charleston. As already pointed out, several southern states did not wait until Lincoln was inaugurated before declaring their independence from the Union. The attack on Fort Sumter had the same impact on Northern citizens in 1861 as the Japanese attack on Pearl Harbor did in 1941. It galvanized northern support for the Union and an outpouring of patriotism to fight to preserve the United States of America.

(06-30-2020 01:39 PM)georgia_tech_swagger Wrote: [ -> ]

(06-29-2020 10:30 PM)JacksonHall Wrote: [ -> ]To lump all residents and soldiers of confederate states into slave holders or to say they all fought to preserve slavery is as ignorant as saying all Germans during WWII hated the Jewish.

Correct. And if you want to peer down that deep, dark, long roadway .... this book should make you stare at the ceiling and give you trouble sleeping if you're even moderately well adjusted.

And to think those lucky enough to flee that are now looked at with distain for their complexion and told they should feel guilty over their “white privilege”.

(06-30-2020 06:25 PM)Polish Hammer Wrote: [ -> ]

(06-30-2020 01:39 PM)georgia_tech_swagger Wrote: [ -> ]

(06-29-2020 10:30 PM)JacksonHall Wrote: [ -> ]To lump all residents and soldiers of confederate states into slave holders or to say they all fought to preserve slavery is as ignorant as saying all Germans during WWII hated the Jewish.

Correct. And if you want to peer down that deep, dark, long roadway .... this book should make you stare at the ceiling and give you trouble sleeping if you're even moderately well adjusted.

And to think those lucky enough to flee that are now looked at with distain for their complexion and told they should feel guilty over their “white privilege”.

Careful, Hammer. There are politically correct, shall we say, people here who insist that historical references come only from racist, jingoist rat bastards glorifying the Holocaust. They prefer their heads in dark, moist places and don't appreciate the light from your Sigmoidoscope.

https://fcnp.com/2020/07/01/f-c-school-b...lementary/

schoolboards considering changing the names of thomas jefferson elementary and George Mason high school

(06-30-2020 04:36 PM)Longhorn Wrote: [ -> ]

(06-30-2020 02:24 PM)RamDawg Wrote: [ -> ]

(06-28-2020 11:13 AM)Longhorn Wrote: [ -> ]

(06-27-2020 05:22 PM)Purple Wrote: [ -> ]I have read your "source documents," but they do not change my mind nor do they change what actually happened.
Remember, the South did not start the Civil War. It started when the North fired on Fort Sumter.

WTF?

OMG

Seriously P, put down the sauce. You’re embarrassing yourself.

Ummm I'm certainly not a "history Guy" but Honest Abe was pissed because the south left the union and stopped paying taxes and would hurt the commodities supply. A.L. says the south can't leave the union and launched some cannon balls over Fort Sumter. Abe really didn't want a war but the south called his bluff.

A few years ago I believe it was the History Channel did a series on the civil war, (maybe called Grant??) I think based on a book Making a Nation (or something like that)

If I recall correctly, Grant actually owned slaves, gifted from his father. R.E. Lee did not own slaves and actually freed slaves that we're owned by his family when he became an adult.

You learned that misinformation at VCU? You certainly didn’t learn it at JMU. Perhaps you went to the same school of alternative facts as P?

Two facts. Grant married into a family from KY with slaves. Grant’s father (or his blood relations) did not own slaves. Ever. The only evidence of Grant controlling a slave was Grant giving the slave his freedom in 1859. Lee, on the other hand, did own slaves, was raised in a household dependent on slave labor, and fought in court to maintain ownership of his working slaves. Lee subsequently married into a family with more slaves. Lee did not free his slaves of his own goodwill. Ever. That is until the outcome of the Civil War, which settled that question quite completely.

Oh, and it’s incontrovertible that the first shots fired on Fort Sumter were by Southern men commanded by Pierre Beauregard, more commonly known as P.G. T. Beauregard, who the newly formed Confederate government placed in command of the defense of Charleston. As already pointed out, several southern states did not wait until Lincoln was inaugurated before declaring their independence from the Union. The attack on Fort Sumter had the same impact on Northern citizens in 1861 as the Japanese attack on Pearl Harbor did in 1941. It galvanized northern support for the Union and an outpouring of patriotism to fight to preserve the United States of America.

The bold part is necessary because??? This is a great example why we as a society struggle; lack of mutual respect to have a civil conversation and learn from each other without be a smart-a$$ Richard. FWIW: I didn't attend JMU or VCU, maybe that's why I have the means to be able to send them a bunch of money over many years. (life is just loaded with a bunch of "what if's")

Anyway...I was never a "history" person but as I get older, it becomes much more interesting and I'm actually enjoying reading a lot of what people are posting. Seems like history is sometimes subjective, depending on where you get your information. What I've learned from modern media, Fox or CNN, Twitter, Facebook, Google, liberal or conservative college educators, is that I need to listen, process and educate myself. When I was a child or even a young adult, we just believed what we were told or taught, now we need to be constant skeptics.

From a Snoops article:

Surprisingly, to many history impaired individuals, most Union Generals and staff had slaves to serve them! William T. Sherman had many slaves that served him until well after the war was over and did not free them until late in 1865.

U.S. Grant also had several slaves, who were only freed after the 13th amendment in December of 1865. When asked why he didn’t free his slaves earlier, Grant stated “Good help is so hard to come by these days.”

Contrarily, Confederate General Robert E. Lee freed his slaves (which he never purchased — they were inherited) in 1862! Lee freed his slaves several years before the war was over, and considerably earlier than his Northern counterparts. And during the fierce early days of the war when the South was obliterating the Yankee armies!

Lastly, and most importantly, why did NORTHERN States outlaw slavery only AFTER the war was over? The so-called “Emancipation Proclamation” of Lincoln only gave freedom to slaves in the SOUTH! NOT in the North! This pecksniffery even went so far as to find the state of Delaware rejecting the 13th Amendment in December of 1865 and did not ratify it (13th Amendment / free the slaves) until 1901!

I was born, raised and educated in the North, near Philly. Moved to Virginia about 25 yrs ago. My whole family still lives up there. MY OPINION and very much generalizing; the people in the North East states have and still do possess more bigotry (not racism) than people in the Mid Atlantic. I don't know why but I personally believe it's because of the NE Melting Pot. Even today, there are towns in the NE where Jews and Catholics or Germans and Italians won't live on the same blocks. I get the sense my northern education may not be the same as someone that was educated in the south. I somewhat wonder if the schools in the North used the same history books as the schools in the South.

(06-30-2020 03:34 PM)Purple Wrote: [ -> ]

(06-30-2020 01:14 PM)RamDawg Wrote: [ -> ]

(06-29-2020 03:40 PM)JacksonHall Wrote: [ -> ]Colleges have been full of Leftists since the 60s when people went to college to hide from going to Vietnam. Not surprising that JMU is among the liberal crowd. My point isn't so much dont change the building names as it is dont be a half-ass about it. If it's about taking an eraser to white people and their religion and their slave owning and whatever else they can think of, then change the damn university name. Get it over with, becaise these people aren't going to stop with a few buildings or statues. It's about hunting down cause and effect. And there is no ultimate cause of anything....just turtles all the way down.

All of a sudden, names on buildings are offensive, "look at me, the almighty Oz" leadership forcing employee's to make "woke" statements they would otherwise choose to keep more private or deal with at the team level. I don't support any person, business, organization the purposely attempts to alienate and divide people so my family has decided to cease financial support of JMU until hopefully the powers to be come to realize their jobs, at a public university are to educate young people.

Extremely well said! And, I support your defunding decision. It's the only way to stop the stupidity.

It wasn't an easy decision. Donating to athletics, the music department, the business school is supposed to be about supporting and providing opportunities for our young adults. I feel the leadership of the places of higher learning have lost their direction. It's been happening for years and certainly not only at JMU. We are not big money donors, peanuts really but we'll be looking into supporting the scholarship type organizations that provide assistance directly to the students and for now, bypass the crap.

JMU has a School or Music.

(07-01-2020 12:06 PM)RamDawg Wrote: [ -> ]

(06-30-2020 04:36 PM)Longhorn Wrote: [ -> ]

(06-30-2020 02:24 PM)RamDawg Wrote: [ -> ]

(06-28-2020 11:13 AM)Longhorn Wrote: [ -> ]

(06-27-2020 05:22 PM)Purple Wrote: [ -> ]I have read your "source documents," but they do not change my mind nor do they change what actually happened.
Remember, the South did not start the Civil War. It started when the North fired on Fort Sumter.

WTF?

OMG

Seriously P, put down the sauce. You’re embarrassing yourself.

Ummm I'm certainly not a "history Guy" but Honest Abe was pissed because the south left the union and stopped paying taxes and would hurt the commodities supply. A.L. says the south can't leave the union and launched some cannon balls over Fort Sumter. Abe really didn't want a war but the south called his bluff.

A few years ago I believe it was the History Channel did a series on the civil war, (maybe called Grant??) I think based on a book Making a Nation (or something like that)

If I recall correctly, Grant actually owned slaves, gifted from his father. R.E. Lee did not own slaves and actually freed slaves that we're owned by his family when he became an adult.

You learned that misinformation at VCU? You certainly didn’t learn it at JMU. Perhaps you went to the same school of alternative facts as P?

Two facts. Grant married into a family from KY with slaves. Grant’s father (or his blood relations) did not own slaves. Ever. The only evidence of Grant controlling a slave was Grant giving the slave his freedom in 1859. Lee, on the other hand, did own slaves, was raised in a household dependent on slave labor, and fought in court to maintain ownership of his working slaves. Lee subsequently married into a family with more slaves. Lee did not free his slaves of his own goodwill. Ever. That is until the outcome of the Civil War, which settled that question quite completely.

Oh, and it’s incontrovertible that the first shots fired on Fort Sumter were by Southern men commanded by Pierre Beauregard, more commonly known as P.G. T. Beauregard, who the newly formed Confederate government placed in command of the defense of Charleston. As already pointed out, several southern states did not wait until Lincoln was inaugurated before declaring their independence from the Union. The attack on Fort Sumter had the same impact on Northern citizens in 1861 as the Japanese attack on Pearl Harbor did in 1941. It galvanized northern support for the Union and an outpouring of patriotism to fight to preserve the United States of America.

The bold part is necessary because??? This is a great example why we as a society struggle; lack of mutual respect to have a civil conversation and learn from each other without be a smart-a$$ Richard. FWIW: I didn't attend JMU or VCU, maybe that's why I have the means to be able to send them a bunch of money over many years. (life is just loaded with a bunch of "what if's")

Anyway...I was never a "history" person but as I get older, it becomes much more interesting and I'm actually enjoying reading a lot of what people are posting. Seems like history is sometimes subjective, depending on where you get your information. What I've learned from modern media, Fox or CNN, Twitter, Facebook, Google, liberal or conservative college educators, is that I need to listen, process and educate myself. When I was a child or even a young adult, we just believed what we were told or taught, now we need to be constant skeptics.

From a Snoops article:

Surprisingly, to many history impaired individuals, most Union Generals and staff had slaves to serve them! William T. Sherman had many slaves that served him until well after the war was over and did not free them until late in 1865.

U.S. Grant also had several slaves, who were only freed after the 13th amendment in December of 1865. When asked why he didn’t free his slaves earlier, Grant stated “Good help is so hard to come by these days.”

Contrarily, Confederate General Robert E. Lee freed his slaves (which he never purchased — they were inherited) in 1862! Lee freed his slaves several years before the war was over, and considerably earlier than his Northern counterparts. And during the fierce early days of the war when the South was obliterating the Yankee armies!

Lastly, and most importantly, why did NORTHERN States outlaw slavery only AFTER the war was over? The so-called “Emancipation Proclamation” of Lincoln only gave freedom to slaves in the SOUTH! NOT in the North! This pecksniffery even went so far as to find the state of Delaware rejecting the 13th Amendment in December of 1865 and did not ratify it (13th Amendment / free the slaves) until 1901!

I was born, raised and educated in the North, near Philly. Moved to Virginia about 25 yrs ago. My whole family still lives up there. MY OPINION and very much generalizing; the people in the North East states have and still do possess more bigotry (not racism) than people in the Mid Atlantic. I don't know why but I personally believe it's because of the NE Melting Pot. Even today, there are towns in the NE where Jews and Catholics or Germans and Italians won't live on the same blocks. I get the sense my northern education may not be the same as someone that was educated in the south. I somewhat wonder if the schools in the North used the same history books as the schools in the South.

You appear to be referencing this article, which is specifically debunking the quotes referenced above.

https://www.snopes.com/fact-check/confed...ownership/

(07-01-2020 08:53 AM)Purple Wrote: [ -> ]

(06-30-2020 06:25 PM)Polish Hammer Wrote: [ -> ]And to think those lucky enough to flee that are now looked at with distain for their complexion and told they should feel guilty over their “white privilege”.

Careful, Hammer. There are politically correct, shall we say, people here who claim historical references come only from racist, jingoist rat bastards glorifying the Holocaust. They prefer their heads in dark, moist places and don't appreciate the light from your Sigmoidoscopy scope.

(07-01-2020 12:06 PM)RamDawg Wrote: [ -> ]

(06-30-2020 04:36 PM)Longhorn Wrote: [ -> ] You learned that misinformation at VCU? You certainly didn’t learn it at JMU. Perhaps you went to the same school of alternative facts as P?

Two facts. Grant married into a family from KY with slaves. Grant’s father (or his blood relations) did not own slaves. Ever. The only evidence of Grant controlling a slave was Grant giving the slave his freedom in 1859. Lee, on the other hand, did own slaves, was raised in a household dependent on slave labor, and fought in court to maintain ownership of his working slaves. Lee subsequently married into a family with more slaves. Lee did not free his slaves of his own goodwill. Ever. That is until the outcome of the Civil War, which settled that question quite completely.

Oh, and it’s incontrovertible that the first shots fired on Fort Sumter were by Southern men commanded by Pierre Beauregard, more commonly known as P.G. T. Beauregard, who the newly formed Confederate government placed in command of the defense of Charleston. As already pointed out, several southern states did not wait until Lincoln was inaugurated before declaring their independence from the Union. The attack on Fort Sumter had the same impact on Northern citizens in 1861 as the Japanese attack on Pearl Harbor did in 1941. It galvanized northern support for the Union and an outpouring of patriotism to fight to preserve the United States of America.

The bold part is necessary because???

Very relevant.

(07-01-2020 09:53 AM)Centdukesfan Wrote: [ -> ]https://fcnp.com/2020/07/01/f-c-school-b...lementary/

schoolboards considering changing the names of thomas jefferson elementary and George Mason high school

Sally Hemings Elementary and Jackie Mason High. James Madison University will also change its name to "Jackie Mason" so they won't have to change the "JMU" logo. Budget constraints and all.

(07-01-2020 10:32 PM)Purple Wrote: [ -> ]

(07-01-2020 09:53 AM)Centdukesfan Wrote: [ -> ]https://fcnp.com/2020/07/01/f-c-school-b...lementary/

schoolboards considering changing the names of thomas jefferson elementary and George Mason high school

Sally Hemings Elementary and Jackie Mason High. James Madison University will also change its name to "Jackie Mason" so they won't have to change the "JMU" logo. Budget constraints and all.

We will have to find another JMU. Yacov Moshe Maza comes with some baggage.

Renaming buildings and tearing down statues is all about helping reverse the racist acts of the country we live in. For example this very offensive statue that was set fire and now removed in Portland.

https://www.rt.com/usa/493549-elk-portla...e-protest/

(07-01-2020 12:41 PM)jmuwyhamhgawd Wrote: [ -> ]

(07-01-2020 12:06 PM)RamDawg Wrote: [ -> ]

(06-30-2020 04:36 PM)Longhorn Wrote: [ -> ]

(06-30-2020 02:24 PM)RamDawg Wrote: [ -> ]

(06-28-2020 11:13 AM)Longhorn Wrote: [ -> ]WTF?

OMG

Seriously P, put down the sauce. You’re embarrassing yourself.

Ummm I'm certainly not a "history Guy" but Honest Abe was pissed because the south left the union and stopped paying taxes and would hurt the commodities supply. A.L. says the south can't leave the union and launched some cannon balls over Fort Sumter. Abe really didn't want a war but the south called his bluff.

A few years ago I believe it was the History Channel did a series on the civil war, (maybe called Grant??) I think based on a book Making a Nation (or something like that)

If I recall correctly, Grant actually owned slaves, gifted from his father. R.E. Lee did not own slaves and actually freed slaves that we're owned by his family when he became an adult.

You learned that misinformation at VCU? You certainly didn’t learn it at JMU. Perhaps you went to the same school of alternative facts as P?

Two facts. Grant married into a family from KY with slaves. Grant’s father (or his blood relations) did not own slaves. Ever. The only evidence of Grant controlling a slave was Grant giving the slave his freedom in 1859. Lee, on the other hand, did own slaves, was raised in a household dependent on slave labor, and fought in court to maintain ownership of his working slaves. Lee subsequently married into a family with more slaves. Lee did not free his slaves of his own goodwill. Ever. That is until the outcome of the Civil War, which settled that question quite completely.

Oh, and it’s incontrovertible that the first shots fired on Fort Sumter were by Southern men commanded by Pierre Beauregard, more commonly known as P.G. T. Beauregard, who the newly formed Confederate government placed in command of the defense of Charleston. As already pointed out, several southern states did not wait until Lincoln was inaugurated before declaring their independence from the Union. The attack on Fort Sumter had the same impact on Northern citizens in 1861 as the Japanese attack on Pearl Harbor did in 1941. It galvanized northern support for the Union and an outpouring of patriotism to fight to preserve the United States of America.

The bold part is necessary because??? This is a great example why we as a society struggle; lack of mutual respect to have a civil conversation and learn from each other without be a smart-a$$ Richard. FWIW: I didn't attend JMU or VCU, maybe that's why I have the means to be able to send them a bunch of money over many years. (life is just loaded with a bunch of "what if's")

Anyway...I was never a "history" person but as I get older, it becomes much more interesting and I'm actually enjoying reading a lot of what people are posting. Seems like history is sometimes subjective, depending on where you get your information. What I've learned from modern media, Fox or CNN, Twitter, Facebook, Google, liberal or conservative college educators, is that I need to listen, process and educate myself. When I was a child or even a young adult, we just believed what we were told or taught, now we need to be constant skeptics.

From a Snoops article:

Surprisingly, to many history impaired individuals, most Union Generals and staff had slaves to serve them! William T. Sherman had many slaves that served him until well after the war was over and did not free them until late in 1865.

U.S. Grant also had several slaves, who were only freed after the 13th amendment in December of 1865. When asked why he didn’t free his slaves earlier, Grant stated “Good help is so hard to come by these days.”

Contrarily, Confederate General Robert E. Lee freed his slaves (which he never purchased — they were inherited) in 1862! Lee freed his slaves several years before the war was over, and considerably earlier than his Northern counterparts. And during the fierce early days of the war when the South was obliterating the Yankee armies!

Lastly, and most importantly, why did NORTHERN States outlaw slavery only AFTER the war was over? The so-called “Emancipation Proclamation” of Lincoln only gave freedom to slaves in the SOUTH! NOT in the North! This pecksniffery even went so far as to find the state of Delaware rejecting the 13th Amendment in December of 1865 and did not ratify it (13th Amendment / free the slaves) until 1901!

I was born, raised and educated in the North, near Philly. Moved to Virginia about 25 yrs ago. My whole family still lives up there. MY OPINION and very much generalizing; the people in the North East states have and still do possess more bigotry (not racism) than people in the Mid Atlantic. I don't know why but I personally believe it's because of the NE Melting Pot. Even today, there are towns in the NE where Jews and Catholics or Germans and Italians won't live on the same blocks. I get the sense my northern education may not be the same as someone that was educated in the south. I somewhat wonder if the schools in the North used the same history books as the schools in the South.

You appear to be referencing this article, which is specifically debunking the quotes referenced above.

https://www.snopes.com/fact-check/confed...ownership/

Snopes is as credible as MAD Magazine.

(07-02-2020 04:02 PM)JMU85 Wrote: [ -> ]Renaming buildings and tearing down statues is all about helping reverse the racist acts of the country we live in. For example this very offensive statue that was set fire and now removed in Portland.

https://www.rt.com/usa/493549-elk-portla...e-protest/

Wow. RT.com huh? The story seems to be true enough but I just question how you come across that source in your daily life. Do you follow them regularly? Is it the social media circles you run in? I don't usually criticize the source of an article unless it's fake news but Russian state sponsored media? Sheesh.

They came for the Frederick Douglass statue in Rochester, NY last night. Talk about lack of Historical knowledge. Geez. If you want to remove Confederate statues, fine, put them in a museum. But, wait two years so that it doesn't appear you are bowing to the mob. It will just embolden them.

(07-06-2020 11:40 AM)Jayemyoo Wrote: [ -> ]They came for the Frederick Douglass statue in Rochester, NY last night. Talk about lack of Historical knowledge. Geez. If you want to remove Confederate statues, fine, put them in a museum. But, wait two years so that it doesn't appear you are bowing to the mob. It will just embolden them.

So you're saying that you think the same type of "mob" that has been tearing down confederate and Columbus statues also removed a Frederick Douglas statue. But instead of doing it in their typical mob style and marching on it and making a show of it this time they decided to do it clandestinely in the middle of the night and not claim any responsibility? I don't know if I buy that story.

(07-06-2020 12:13 PM)mturn017 Wrote: [ -> ]

(07-06-2020 11:40 AM)Jayemyoo Wrote: [ -> ]They came for the Frederick Douglass statue in Rochester, NY last night. Talk about lack of Historical knowledge. Geez. If you want to remove Confederate statues, fine, put them in a museum. But, wait two years so that it doesn't appear you are bowing to the mob. It will just embolden them.

So you're saying that you think the same type of "mob" that has been tearing down confederate and Columbus statues also removed a Frederick Douglas statue. But instead of doing it in their typical mob style and marching on it and making a show of it this time they decided to do it clandestinely in the middle of the night and not claim any responsibility? I don't know if I buy that story.

A mob is a mob. Doesn't matter what side of the coin.