(04-15-2020 07:48 AM)bearcatmark Wrote: [ -> ]This isn't the flu. Stop saying dangerous bull**** like that. We've had 25,000 deaths in less than 2 months and that's despite utterly unprecedented action. With the H1N1 scare we had 10,000 in a year.
CoVid 19 is an RNA virus that uses an RNA dependent RNA polymerase that happens to be sensitive to......ZINC. Published papers on the ability of high intracellular zinc levels indicate that the production of the viral RNA genome is inhibited by elevated intracellular zinc due to a higher instance of truncated viral genome under these conditions.
Hydroxycholoroquine and Chloroquine both elevate intracellular zinc levels and reduce symptoms caused by the virus because it causes a reduction in the ability of the virus to replicate. Topical zinc and zinc supplements have a prophylactic effect on contracting the virus...e.g. Zicam.
In any viral therapy it is critical to ID those processes that are unique to the virus in order to develop an effective therapy. The use of zinc is definitely part of this equation.
Other approaches include using antibody from recovered patients to provide passive immunity. This has already been shown to be successful utilizing plasma therapy from those who have recovered to those suffering symptoms. The use of monoclonal antibody as passive immunity would buy time to generate a vaccine that produces active immunity.
Another fruitful approach would be the formulation of an interferon nasal spray that would activate "dicer" --an enzyme inside every cell that chops up double-stranded RNA which is an intermediate in the reproduction cycle of the virus. As far as I've seen, this has yet to be employed.
Another factor is "herd immunity" in which those who have had the virus and have recovered serve as a buffer for those who are vulnerable. This has likely already happened in California, where the Asian population is significant, while the total infected numbers and death toll are much lower than many of the current models would have predicted.
The proper lesson learned here is the approach taken by Taiwan--the traditional enemy of Communist China: limited (if any) travel, all those coming in from the mainland have to be tested and isolated for several weeks before being released into the general public, and, most importantly--DON'T TRUST ANY INFORMATION COMING OUT OF MAINLAND CHINA!!
Another critical point here is that our economy....which serves as a significant part of the world economy...must reopen soon even at the risk of our vulnerable population. Otherwise, the damaging impact will far outdistance the casualties caused by the virus. If we keep printing $$$ to generate stimulus checks we will induce inflation not seen since the days of the Weimar Repbulic.
And no...this isn't a plot to curtail freedom, but it is certainly being used by politicians to do just that. The danger here is that this becomes common practice, utilizing fear to promote autocratic control over daily life. It is also, unfortunately, offering a toe-hold for socialism which has failed to generate significant GDP everywhere it has been tried.
I'm not trying to favor the effect of one drug over another. But I'm going to use an example to make a point:
Remdesivir makes more sense than chloroquine. The former is an adenine analogue that inhibits reverse transcriptase of the virus RNA into the genome. Which is similar in function to AZT, the first drug that spawned the revolution of HIV treatment in the 80s.
Chloroquine and Hydroxy chloroquine work by invading the internal structures of the cell, raising the pH level, and ultimately preventing the glycoslyation of cell receptors. All that is to say, it inhibits the viral attachment to cells
Of those two treatments (there are far more out there, but Trumper heard a study about Hydroxy chloroquine and became obsessed with it), Remdesivir is a better targeting agent, specifically for coronaviruses. Chloroquine has been used to treat a lot of different virus', like HIV and Malaria, and that's what led doctors to start administering it.
What people fail to see is that the differences between these drugs from a biochemical standpoint is often the difference in thousands of people dying. Everyone wants a miracle drug that cures the coronavirus but doesn't neccesarily understand how complex medical research is beyond preliminary "positive results". Sometimes anecdotal evidence leads to huge breakthroughs in medicine. Aspirin, for example, is derived from a chemical that was found in tree bark that the ancient Egyptians used to chew on to relieve pain.
Unfortunetly, for every massive breakthrough, there are millions of "promising results" that lead us nowhere. Seriously, there's a "potential breakthrough" made in cancer research every week, but that doesn't mean we're any closer to a "cure". No, in reality these things take time.
I hope one of these drugs is effective in treating patients. But the world isn't going to return to normalcy. That won't happen until we develop a full fledged vaccine, which, like everything else, takes time.
(04-15-2020 02:16 PM)Bear Catlett Wrote: [ -> ]I believe the question was "how are you any different".
I already told you twice: my opinion was not political. If anything, my motivation was predicting stock market movement. (The virus isn’t the big problem - its only the pin that pops the bubble.)
It’s rare that I’m so right about something, but I just happened to call this one and was rather confident about it. I was telling people to pay attention.
But I’ll be damned if I’m going to let people call this the flu, or let a politician get away with saying it’s under control, or that it’s going to
miraculously disappear, especially since he had been warned...repeatedly.
That's OK dude. Nobody else ever answers my direct questions either. Why should you be any different.
Just curious, why aren't you such a hard a$$ about the head of the health department ridiculously overstating a month ago that there were 100,000 people walking around Ohio with covid19 when actually to date there have been only about 7% of that figure? Selective hard assness?
It's OK if you duck this question too.
What are you babbling about? How many have been tested? Your claim is baseless and utter nonsense.
Baseless... nonsense... can't you guys think of any new stuff?
Those are facts, my man.
But by all means, don't answer the question.
No, you answer the question. HOW MANY PEOPLE HAVE BEEN TESTED. UNTIL YOU DO THAT, YOU HAVE ZERO CLUE WHAT THE IN FECTION RATE IS. IT'S SO SIMPLE. YET YOU KEEP UP WITH A MORONIC ARGUMENT.
(04-15-2020 05:23 PM)Cataclysmo Wrote: [ -> ]I'm not trying to favor the effect of one drug over another. But I'm going to use an example to make a point:
Remdesivir makes more sense than chloroquine. The former is an adenine analogue that inhibits reverse transcriptase of the virus RNA into the genome. Which is similar in function to AZT, the first drug that spawned the revolution of HIV treatment in the 80s.
Chloroquine and Hydroxy chloroquine work by invading the internal structures of the cell, raising the pH level, and ultimately preventing the glycoslyation of cell receptors. All that is to say, it inhibits the viral attachment to cells
Of those two treatments (there are far more out there, but Trumper heard a study about Hydroxy chloroquine and became obsessed with it), Remdesivir is a better targeting agent, specifically for coronaviruses. Chloroquine has been used to treat a lot of different virus', like HIV and Malaria, and that's what led doctors to start administering it.
What people fail to see is that the differences between these drugs from a biochemical standpoint is often the difference in thousands of people dying. Everyone wants a miracle drug that cures the coronavirus but doesn't neccesarily understand how complex medical research is beyond preliminary "positive results". Sometimes anecdotal evidence leads to huge breakthroughs in medicine. Aspirin, for example, is derived from a chemical that was found in tree bark that the ancient Egyptians used to chew on to relieve pain.
Unfortunetly, for every massive breakthrough, there are millions of "promising results" that lead us nowhere. Seriously, there's a "potential breakthrough" made in cancer research every week, but that doesn't mean we're any closer to a "cure". No, in reality these things take time.
I hope one of these drugs is effective in treating patients. But the world isn't going to return to normalcy. That won't happen until we develop a full fledged vaccine, which, like everything else, takes time.
Sent from my SM-G973U using Tapatalk
According to what I've seen the zinc drugs also reduce the efficacy of the RNA-dependent RNA polymerase...this is what they found on Northerns.
I agree with your assertion about Remdesivir, BUT, this is an RNA-dependent RNA polymerase and not a DNA dependent RNA polymerase, thus, the efficacy would have to be assessed....another risk associated with the nucleotide analogs is that they are mutagens and carry a cancer risk:
My concern is that if we don't act quickly, there won't be an economy to save....my analogy...if your house is on fire, you don't worry about the water damage.
We simply don't have months to test and re-test all of these suggestions while the economy rots...my feeling is...throw the FDA approved stuff out there and see what happens...worst case scenario is it fails to work...at least the effort was made.
Something that might also be fruitful is combination therapy...why not combine the chloroquine class with the nucleotide analogs to try and produce a synergistic effect? No harm in attempting it...
There's a lot in there to unpack but I guess the broader answer is that most of these things are being tried. They're already working on clinical trials to determine the effectiveness of these drugs with more representative models.
The reason I brought up Remdesivir isn't because I think it'll be a miracle drug, but because it's already shown more promising clinical trials than chloroquine but doesn't get half the publicity. The initial hype over Chloroquine was based off anecdotal evidence and a complete sham of a paper from French researchers that Trump got a hold of. By contrast, the Remdesivir study involved critically ill patients and was published in one of the best journals in the world.
But in any case, my broader point is that these things are complex, and people need to stop holding out hope that some scientist is gonna walk out of a lab one day with the antitode.
(04-15-2020 02:16 PM)Bear Catlett Wrote: [ -> ]I believe the question was "how are you any different".
I already told you twice: my opinion was not political. If anything, my motivation was predicting stock market movement. (The virus isn’t the big problem - its only the pin that pops the bubble.)
It’s rare that I’m so right about something, but I just happened to call this one and was rather confident about it. I was telling people to pay attention.
But I’ll be damned if I’m going to let people call this the flu, or let a politician get away with saying it’s under control, or that it’s going to
miraculously disappear, especially since he had been warned...repeatedly.
That's OK dude. Nobody else ever answers my direct questions either. Why should you be any different.
Just curious, why aren't you such a hard a$$ about the head of the health department ridiculously overstating a month ago that there were 100,000 people walking around Ohio with covid19 when actually to date there have been only about 7% of that figure? Selective hard assness?
It's OK if you duck this question too.
What are you babbling about? How many have been tested? Your claim is baseless and utter nonsense.
Baseless... nonsense... can't you guys think of any new stuff?
Those are facts, my man.
But by all means, don't answer the question.
Sir, you are lost in the forest.
You might want to reevaluate what you state are “facts.”
(04-15-2020 02:00 PM)Bear Catlett Wrote: [ -> ]So let me get this straight... you're dragging politics into this while basically admitting that you too are aligned with everyone on your side of the political aisle.
So... how are you any different the people on the other side?
Yet you all come on here convinced that you are right... and the other side is wrong.
But if someone on the other side does it... they're a partisan hack head slapping idiot.
But if YOU do it... you're just being smart.
So the basic theme here is to just shut up, do things your way and there will be no discussion. Have I got that right?
I didn’t drag politics into this - it was already here.
BUT there is a reality that the ones still filling churches and calling it the flu are overwhelmingly not Bernie supporters.
See you on the politics board!
I believe the question was "how are you any different".
I already told you twice: my opinion was not political. If anything, my motivation was predicting stock market movement. (The virus isn’t the big problem - its only the pin that pops the bubble.)
It’s rare that I’m so right about something, but I just happened to call this one and was rather confident about it. I was telling people to pay attention.
But I’ll be damned if I’m going to let people call this the flu, or let a politician get away with saying it’s under control, or that it’s going to
miraculously disappear, especially since he had been warned...repeatedly.
That's OK dude. Nobody else ever answers my direct questions either. Why should you be any different.
Just curious, why aren't you such a hard a$$ about the head of the health department ridiculously overstating a month ago that there were 100,000 people walking around Ohio with covid19 when actually to date there have been only about 7% of that figure? Selective hard assness?
It's OK if you duck this question too.
Only, 71,552 have been tested in Ohio to date. How can you possibly know 100,000 do not have the virus?
To change the tone of the thread for a moment, here's an article related to the OP...
Quote:Vice President Mike Pence was a good listener Wednesday on a conference call with the College Football Playoff Management Committee to discuss the impact of the coronavirus pandemic on college athletics. That was one conclusion drawn by those on the call because the message to Pence from that group was clear: There will be no college football until students are allowed on campus.
"Our players are students. If we're not in college, we're not having contests," said Big 12 commissioner Bob Bowlsby, who was on the call.
"Our message was, we need to get universities and colleges back open, that we were education-based programs, and we weren't going to have sports until we had something closer to normal college going on," he added.
The White House had sought the call with the leaders of major college sports' top conferences earlier in the week. President Donald Trump has been supportive of sports restarting soon.
The CFP Management includes commissioners from the Power Five and Group of Five along with Notre Dame athletic director Jack Swarbrick. Wednesday marked 33 days since the NCAA Tournament had been canceled.
"[Pence] expressed his gratitude for what we did with the basketball tournaments," Bowlsby said. "He acknowledged it was difficult and expensive to cancel conference tournaments and not play the NCAA Tournament."
The call was described as congenial and productive. At one point, Pence asked the commissioners what it would take "to get things back to normal."
"I think he appreciated hearing our thoughts," Bowlsby said.
Part of the call had to do with differentiating college sports from the professional leagues. Pro athletes can collectively bargain their working conditions in their return to play. College athletes cannot. In fact, the liability of bringing college sports back too soon and exposing athletes to infection could be significant.
Dr. Anthony Fauci, the director of the National Institute of Allergy and Infectious Diseases, explained Tuesday how sports could return this summer under massive restrictions in empty venues.
"That's the worst version of this: getting started and [having to] stop," Swarbrick said. "This is all about, [it] sort of begins and ends with bringing our students back to campus," Swarbrick said. "It's just hard to figure out how you can say, 'We believe the campus isn't safe for our student body, and oh, we're going to bring one group of students back.'"
It was acknowledged that we're barely one month into this pandemic affecting sports across the country. In another month, things may change.
"I felt positive about the call," MAC commissioner Jon Steinbrecher said. "To me, it was a recognition of the role of higher education and the role of intercollegiate athletics in the fabric of our society."
The commissioners will be the main entity that will decide when college sports return -- with input from the NCAA and medical personnel, of course.
(04-15-2020 02:15 PM)BearcatsUC Wrote: [ -> ]I didn’t drag politics into this - it was already here.
BUT there is a reality that the ones still filling churches and calling it the flu are overwhelmingly not Bernie supporters.
See you on the politics board!
I believe the question was "how are you any different".
I already told you twice: my opinion was not political. If anything, my motivation was predicting stock market movement. (The virus isn’t the big problem - its only the pin that pops the bubble.)
It’s rare that I’m so right about something, but I just happened to call this one and was rather confident about it. I was telling people to pay attention.
But I’ll be damned if I’m going to let people call this the flu, or let a politician get away with saying it’s under control, or that it’s going to
miraculously disappear, especially since he had been warned...repeatedly.
That's OK dude. Nobody else ever answers my direct questions either. Why should you be any different.
Just curious, why aren't you such a hard a$$ about the head of the health department ridiculously overstating a month ago that there were 100,000 people walking around Ohio with covid19 when actually to date there have been only about 7% of that figure? Selective hard assness?
It's OK if you duck this question too.
Only, 71,552 have been tested in Ohio to date. How can you possibly know 100,000 do not have the virus?
(04-15-2020 02:16 PM)Bear Catlett Wrote: [ -> ]I believe the question was "how are you any different".
I already told you twice: my opinion was not political. If anything, my motivation was predicting stock market movement. (The virus isn’t the big problem - its only the pin that pops the bubble.)
It’s rare that I’m so right about something, but I just happened to call this one and was rather confident about it. I was telling people to pay attention.
But I’ll be damned if I’m going to let people call this the flu, or let a politician get away with saying it’s under control, or that it’s going to
miraculously disappear, especially since he had been warned...repeatedly.
That's OK dude. Nobody else ever answers my direct questions either. Why should you be any different.
Just curious, why aren't you such a hard a$$ about the head of the health department ridiculously overstating a month ago that there were 100,000 people walking around Ohio with covid19 when actually to date there have been only about 7% of that figure? Selective hard assness?
It's OK if you duck this question too.
Only, 71,552 have been tested in Ohio to date. How can you possibly know 100,000 do not have the virus?
My wife works for one of the major medical research entities in Cincinnati as a clinical supervisor for an outpatient practice. One of her coworker's parents tested positive for COVID-19 and her coworker was showing telltale symptoms a couple weeks ago of also having it. HR advised her not to be tested to confirm the diagnosis and to wear a mask at work until her symptoms disappeared. (They have since all been outfitted with paper masks and face shields, and are supposed to use the former until they are visibly soiled.)
The same entity was talking major steps towards setting up drive thru testing stations in various parts of the city (including downtown) to test for both university patients and patients referred outside of the network by other entities. They were going as far as to mobilize their office doctor and admin staff to man these tents to help with testing activity as recent as two weeks ago. This was abruptly halted when it was reported that there was a lack of available test kits.
Most of the testing in Hamilton County, at least up to a week or so ago, had been done by private test labs, not major health corporations. Also notice the higher number of positive tests in Cuyahoga County. This isn't because the disease is hitting harder in Cleveland. It's because that's where Cleveland Clinic is.
This is THE major medical research entity in Cincinnati, and they don't have the test kits to confirm the majority of cases to determine how this is spreading. There are plenty of cases that are not, nor will ever be confirmed. It does not prove that the projections are wrong or that this shouldn't be taken seriously - it shows there is a lack of data.
I now know three people who have contracted it. Two are in their 20s, and have both recovered with exception to a lingering loss of smell. One is in his mid-90s and is currently on the highest level of oxygen permitted before requiring a respirator and is in ICU. If you don't know someone who has contacted this by the time this is all said and done, you will be in the vast minority. I'm not talking about knowing of someone, like Joe Diffie or a celebrity. I mean someone with whom you have a personal relationship. The danger here is that because this is a new disease, there is no vaccination, there is no defined treatment, and there is no defined practice of isolating those who have tested positive (especially without the ability or willingness to test for it due to lack of resources). This alone makes it much different than the flu.
Bottom line is that even people with symptoms aren't being tested, much less asymptomatic people.
I think we will have sports in the summer and fall, but not without restricted capacities at a minimum, and likely without any spectators in many cases. It will be interesting to see how it is produced, but I think all of the people who were dismissive of the idea previously would rather see something than nothing at all.
(04-15-2020 07:16 PM)Cataclysmo Wrote: [ -> ]Wait, are you actually arguing that asymptomatic people don't actually have coronavirus?
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No no, you must understand that despite the fact that there are many, many documented cases of asymptomatic carriers around the world and in the US, none of those can possibly be in Ohio.
Please ignore the preponderance of evidence behind the curtain!
(04-15-2020 07:16 PM)Cataclysmo Wrote: [ -> ]Wait, are you actually arguing that asymptomatic people don't actually have coronavirus?
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No no, you must understand that despite the fact that there are many, many documented cases of asymptomatic carriers around the world and in the US, none of those can possibly be in Ohio.
Please ignore the preponderance of evidence behind the curtain!
The question isn't "are there asymptomatic carriers?"
The question is "how many symptomatic carriers are there?"
If there's 10,000 asymptomatic carriers in Ohio right now, then this disease doesn't spread nearly as rapidly as we think it does.
If there's 1 million asymptomatic carriers in Ohio right now, then the disease isn't really that deadly and it will be over soon.
If it's somewhere in the middle, then we're in trouble.
Columbia University in New York is testing every single pregnant woman for COVID. They're finding that 14% of the population has COVID and is asymptomatic. That means that the disease spreads very fast, but the mortality rate is lower than a bad flu (although there's more total deaths than the flu because more people get this).
And this isn't a flu - it doesn't mutate nearly as quickly (at least according to a microbiology professor I spoke to yesterday).
Well, if the country goes belly up simply because people are all scared sh!tless of covid19 then yeah, that's gonna make me mad.
Shutting down all of us rather than just isolating those most vulnerable to it (and we DO know who that is) just seems totally @$$ backwards to me.
Everything I've read on the asymptomatic angle was that this all was based on findings of the WHO (strike one) that based its position on data obtained from China (strike two). Yeah, that's the same WHO that was so inept that Trump is no longer going to fund it and the same China that you can't believe a word it says.
But for me... I so many times just wanted to say I'VE GOT BETTER THINGS TO DO THAN TO SIT AROUND ARGUING WITH YOU PEOPLE, but since the world's shut down... I don't.
(04-15-2020 05:45 PM)Cataclysmo Wrote: [ -> ]There's a lot in there to unpack but I guess the broader answer is that most of these things are being tried. They're already working on clinical trials to determine the effectiveness of these drugs with more representative models.
The reason I brought up Remdesivir isn't because I think it'll be a miracle drug, but because it's already shown more promising clinical trials than chloroquine but doesn't get half the publicity. The initial hype over Chloroquine was based off anecdotal evidence and a complete sham of a paper from French researchers that Trump got a hold of. By contrast, the Remdesivir study involved critically ill patients and was published in one of the best journals in the world.
But in any case, my broader point is that these things are complex, and people need to stop holding out hope that some scientist is gonna walk out of a lab one day with the antitode.
Sent from my SM-G973U using Tapatalk
Might the chloroquine class be dual action? Both inhibiting attachment and interfering with the polymerase by raising the intracellular zinc levels? If so, it's hitting the virus on 2 fronts and could be more effective?
Circling back to the title of this thread, my sense as of today is yes, we will have college football this year. the NFL seems to be floating trial balloons this week about its season, with our without fans. I would expect college football to follow the NFL's lead on this. So we may see empty stadia, or greatly reduced capacity depending upon what social distancing restrictions remain in place. But if much of the country gets back to work in the May-June time frame it's reasonable to believe a modified fall practice schedule could begin in the July-August time frame.
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