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Clearly Notre Dame desires to remain independent.

But the way to get the conferences more money is to figure out how to entice Notre Dame in as a full member.

Almost all these big realignment scenarios assume Notre Dame will join. Either they have to be desperate or it has to be a deal that gives them the best of both worlds.

It needs to give them conference membership with scheduling flexibility. That means something like a 14 team conference with only division games counting. So Notre Dame could play a 6 game conference schedule and have 6 games free. For example, ACC and ESPN send Louisville to the Big 12 and bring in Notre Dame as a full member. Notre Dame might be enticed in to playing 7 games. But the only way they accept an 8 game conference schedule is if it includes USC and Stanford. Then they are effectively committing only 6 games to a conference beyond what they play now.

However, I don't see any scenario with Notre Dame in a division with USC and Stanford that really makes sense. And schools won't want a Notre Dame scenario if they never get a chance to play them (ie Notre Dame plays 6 division games and 2 cross division games vs. USC and Stanford and never plays anyone else in the other division).

So basically it needs to be a 10 to 14 team conference. As a long shot they might take a 16 team conference with rotating pods with a 7 game conference schedule.

I just see 2 ways this works:

1. The above scenario where UL goes to Big 12 and Notre Dame joins ACC. Perhaps Notre Dame and Pitt rotate coastal/atlantic every 2 years so Notre Dame gets everyone. For two years, Notre Dame would be with UVA/VT/UNC/Duke/GT/Miami and then for two years Pitt would replace them while ND was with FSU/Clemson/Wake/NCSU/BC/Syracuse.

2. Some sort of division of the ACC by the SEC and Big 10. The B1G group and SEC group each have 2 conferences of 10 to 12 teams. The original B1G and SEC play 8 conference games while Notre Dame's is only required to play 6. For example:
B1G West- Nebraska, Iowa, Minnesota, Wisconsin, Illinois, Northwestern, East- Indiana, Purdue, Michigan St., Michigan, Ohio St., Rutgers
New conference North-Penn St., Maryland, Notre Dame, Pitt, Virginia Tech, South-Virginia, Duke, North Carolina, Georgia Tech, Miami.
There are a lot of other ways the ACC could be split, although the most value would seem to be splitting the Florida and Carolina schools between the SEC and B1G as opposed to a North/South split.
Just come join us as an indy Big Tex.
(03-28-2020 08:45 AM)domer1978 Wrote: [ -> ]Just come join us as an indy Big Tex.

Agreed. Forget all that football conference nonsense. :)
Conference scheduling flexibility is one hurdle that ND requires before joining a conference. Somehow creating equitable access to a conference championship game via fewer (6, 7 or 8) conference games is a huge advantage. ND needs greater flexibility in order to keep building its brand.

Access to the national playoffs is just as important in convincing ND to join a conference. Currently, ND has sufficient access to the playoffs. If the P5 would convert to a P4, and the playoffs remain at 4 teams, and the P4 make conference champions a more important criteria to making the playoffs...then ND may consider joining a conference. For example, any P5/P4 conference champion with 2 or fewer losses is automatically in the playoffs. All conferences, except possibly the SEC, should be OK with providing more weight to conference champions in playoff selection.
(03-28-2020 09:45 AM)Wahoowa84 Wrote: [ -> ]Conference scheduling flexibility is one hurdle that ND requires before joining a conference. Somehow creating equitable access to a conference championship game via fewer (6, 7 or 8) conference games is a huge advantage. ND needs greater flexibility in order to keep building its brand.

Access to the national playoffs is just as important in convincing ND to join a conference. Currently, ND has sufficient access to the playoffs. If the P5 would convert to a P4, and the playoffs remain at 4 teams, and the P4 make conference champions a more important criteria to making the playoffs...then ND may consider joining a conference. For example, any P5/P4 conference champion with 2 or fewer losses is automatically in the playoffs. All conferences, except possibly the SEC, should be OK with providing more weight to conference champions in playoff selection.


ND is "in a conference" for 25 of its 26 sports programs. Two conferences, in fact.


As is well known, ND absolutely hates and rejects the idea of putting its football program in a conference, any conference (but the Big Ten most of all).

Various schemes concocted on message boards are not going to move ND one inch.

It will only move as a last ditch, a "no other choice" situation or if it is desperate.

It will only join if forced to with a proverbial shotgun put to its head.

If a P4, champs only playoff is legally mandated, ND will join a conference. No choice.

Otherwise, it is going to stay the course.

Hell, the good Fathers at ND may as likely decide to opt out of big time athletics as consider some of the various schemes I have seen to "entice" ND football to join a conference.
Notre Dame will end up joining one national "conference" should that ever arise or they'll end up joining some overgrown version of the Big Ten after having absorbed several ACC schools.

Economics likely forces their hand one of these days, but I don't think the right arrangement of conference members will do it for them.
You lost me at UL joining the Big 12
The only way Notre Dame joins a football conference is if they were somehow able to still have a nationwide schedule.

So if the conference was large, and didn't play many in-conference games, and rotated pods?

Like say if the ACC added Notre Dame, Navy, Texas, and Oklahoma and split into 5 pods of 4. Notre Dame's pod is: Notre Dame, Navy, Texas, and Oklahoma?

Or if the Big Ten added Notre Dame, Navy, USC, Stanford, Virginia, and North Carolina. Put ND, Navy, Stanford, and USC in the same pod. It wouldn't really work for anyone else though...
(03-28-2020 08:29 AM)bullet Wrote: [ -> ]It needs to give them conference membership with scheduling flexibility. That means something like a 14 team conference with only division games counting.

A 6 game conference schedule would detract from the value that many other members get out of the conference. Can't get Big 12 schools to vote for a format that gives them fewer home games with UT and OU because those games provide Big 12 members with their greatest home-game revenue, can't get Big Ten schools to vote for even fewer home games with Ohio State and Michigan than they now have, etc., etc. *Maybe* the ACC could do it because they don't have any football teams that are a box office bonanza for every other team in the league, though playing fewer conference games would further dilute what little commonality they already have.

Also, once you let Notre Dame, as a full member, play only 6 conference games, other top programs in the conference are going to want to do the same. They won't want to play a game at Minnesota or Kansas or Boston College that doesn't count in conference standings when they could, instead, schedule more non-conference games vs. opponents of their choosing.
Notre Dame will never join the ACC, B1G, SEC, Big 12 or PAC in their present forms, rightfully so. As much as many would like to argue otherwise, for as much Notre Dame carries value as an independent in football, college football values Notre Dame being an independent as well. Would Stanford/USC (and the PAC) enjoy ND joining an East coast conference full-time? How about the B1G (which, at present, at least has semi-annual game against the likes of Michigan/MSU/Purdue/etc.) seeing ND join the Big 12? ND, as an independent, does bring value to the P5 as a collective unit.

The only way ND will ever join a conference for football is one of three ways.

1) There is a creation of a new high academic/high athletic national conference (one where, likely, the top public state athletic institutions consolidate into a larger collective) composed of national private institutions. This would involve schools like ND, Duke, Stanford, Northwestern, Vanderbilt, Georgetown, Johns Hopkins, Rice, Tulane, Boston College, Miami, USC, Wake Forest, Baylor, TCU, Pittsburgh, Syracuse, etc.

2) There is a separation of the top-25/30, or so, of top college football programs (that form its own coalition), and Notre Dame is included. However, and ND fans can chime-in on this one, there is no guarantee ND would commit to this association either. This would not eliminate the ability to schedule nationally, but it would likely eliminate Navy and prevent a number of rotational programs (especially in the NE).

3) Pay-for-pay becomes a reality. I believe Swarbrick has been on record saying ND would not be part of such a grouping, but who knows what the alumni/donors would end up saying about that. This could lead to a grouping of the Option #1 schools (many of whom might very well choose not to do pay-for-play), but it also would eliminate the opportunity for a school like ND to compete for national championships/CFP annually (which is a very big deal for ND).

Again, while fun for exercise, it has to be echoed that ND is not joining an FBS conference for football given the current parameters and landscape for college football. Additionally, they will not be leaving the ACC for a long-time, either. They have their preferred arrangement in football, as well as the academic associations they desire as well.
(03-28-2020 04:30 PM)Wedge Wrote: [ -> ]
(03-28-2020 08:29 AM)bullet Wrote: [ -> ]It needs to give them conference membership with scheduling flexibility. That means something like a 14 team conference with only division games counting.

A 6 game conference schedule would detract from the value that many other members get out of the conference. Can't get Big 12 schools to vote for a format that gives them fewer home games with UT and OU because those games provide Big 12 members with their greatest home-game revenue, can't get Big Ten schools to vote for even fewer home games with Ohio State and Michigan than they now have, etc., etc. *Maybe* the ACC could do it because they don't have any football teams that are a box office bonanza for every other team in the league, though playing fewer conference games would further dilute what little commonality they already have.

Also, once you let Notre Dame, as a full member, play only 6 conference games, other top programs in the conference are going to want to do the same. They won't want to play a game at Minnesota or Kansas or Boston College that doesn't count in conference standings when they could, instead, schedule more non-conference games vs. opponents of their choosing.

ND has zero interest in schemes like this.

These only exist on message boards.
(03-28-2020 03:45 PM)Captain Bearcat Wrote: [ -> ]The only way Notre Dame joins a football conference is if they were somehow able to still have a nationwide schedule.

So if the conference was large, and didn't play many in-conference games, and rotated pods?

Like say if the ACC added Notre Dame, Navy, Texas, and Oklahoma and split into 5 pods of 4. Notre Dame's pod is: Notre Dame, Navy, Texas, and Oklahoma?

Or if the Big Ten added Notre Dame, Navy, USC, Stanford, Virginia, and North Carolina. Put ND, Navy, Stanford, and USC in the same pod. It wouldn't really work for anyone else though...

That is not nearly enough for ND to shelve its brand, its current status/setup and its 133 year tradition of being a football independent.

It is not just the national schedule part (although that is part of it).

ND just doesn't want to put its football program in a conference, even if it made more money and could play a national schedule by doing so.

It is the very idea of putting football in a conference that it rejects and has always rejected since the 1920's.

People seem to have an inability to understand this.

ND could have joined any conference it wanted since then.

It could have joined the Big East in full from 1995-2012 or the ACC in full at any time since 2012.

It could have joined the Big Ten (Everyone wants to join the Big Ten, right?) at any time since the 1970's.

It has refused to do so....every single time.

It will take desperation or lack of all other options on ND's part to change that.
(03-28-2020 05:21 PM)GoldenWarrior11 Wrote: [ -> ]Notre Dame will never join the ACC, B1G, SEC, Big 12 or PAC in their present forms, rightfully so. As much as many would like to argue otherwise, for as much Notre Dame carries value as an independent in football, college football values Notre Dame being an independent as well. Would Stanford/USC (and the PAC) enjoy ND joining an East coast conference full-time? How about the B1G (which, at present, at least has semi-annual game against the likes of Michigan/MSU/Purdue/etc.) seeing ND join the Big 12? ND, as an independent, does bring value to the P5 as a collective unit.

The only way ND will ever join a conference for football is one of three ways.

1) There is a creation of a new high academic/high athletic national conference (one where, likely, the top public state athletic institutions consolidate into a larger collective) composed of national private institutions. This would involve schools like ND, Duke, Stanford, Northwestern, Vanderbilt, Georgetown, Johns Hopkins, Rice, Tulane, Boston College, Miami, USC, Wake Forest, Baylor, TCU, Pittsburgh, Syracuse, etc.

2) There is a separation of the top-25/30, or so, of top college football programs (that form its own coalition), and Notre Dame is included. However, and ND fans can chime-in on this one, there is no guarantee ND would commit to this association either. This would not eliminate the ability to schedule nationally, but it would likely eliminate Navy and prevent a number of rotational programs (especially in the NE).

3) Pay-for-pay becomes a reality. I believe Swarbrick has been on record saying ND would not be part of such a grouping, but who knows what the alumni/donors would end up saying about that. This could lead to a grouping of the Option #1 schools (many of whom might very well choose not to do pay-for-play), but it also would eliminate the opportunity for a school like ND to compete for national championships/CFP annually (which is a very big deal for ND).

Again, while fun for exercise, it has to be echoed that ND is not joining an FBS conference for football given the current parameters and landscape for college football. Additionally, they will not be leaving the ACC for a long-time, either. They have their preferred arrangement in football, as well as the academic associations they desire as well.

1) ND would likely want partial membership in this conference as well, with football being independent.

2) For what it is worth, Father John Jenkins (ND's president) has said on multiple occasions that ND will not participate as well.

3) An emphatic yes to that entire paragraph.
(03-28-2020 01:26 PM)Thiefery Wrote: [ -> ]You lost me at UL joining the Big 12

The idea is that ESPN would want Notre Dame in the ACC, so they would make sure the Big 12 got paid for expanding.
(03-28-2020 04:30 PM)Wedge Wrote: [ -> ]
(03-28-2020 08:29 AM)bullet Wrote: [ -> ]It needs to give them conference membership with scheduling flexibility. That means something like a 14 team conference with only division games counting.

A 6 game conference schedule would detract from the value that many other members get out of the conference. Can't get Big 12 schools to vote for a format that gives them fewer home games with UT and OU because those games provide Big 12 members with their greatest home-game revenue, can't get Big Ten schools to vote for even fewer home games with Ohio State and Michigan than they now have, etc., etc. *Maybe* the ACC could do it because they don't have any football teams that are a box office bonanza for every other team in the league, though playing fewer conference games would further dilute what little commonality they already have.

Also, once you let Notre Dame, as a full member, play only 6 conference games, other top programs in the conference are going to want to do the same. They won't want to play a game at Minnesota or Kansas or Boston College that doesn't count in conference standings when they could, instead, schedule more non-conference games vs. opponents of their choosing.

1) Notre Dame would get the exception. Everyone else would have 7 or 8 conference games.
2) While there is something to what you say in the 2nd paragraph, the first paragraph is the bigger point. Its not easy to schedule 6 non-conference games. And in the one management group, 2 conference setup, the idea would be to have a scheduling arrangement between the two conferences, controlling the inventory and creating attractive matchups.
(03-28-2020 06:39 PM)TerryD Wrote: [ -> ]
(03-28-2020 05:21 PM)GoldenWarrior11 Wrote: [ -> ]Notre Dame will never join the ACC, B1G, SEC, Big 12 or PAC in their present forms, rightfully so. As much as many would like to argue otherwise, for as much Notre Dame carries value as an independent in football, college football values Notre Dame being an independent as well. Would Stanford/USC (and the PAC) enjoy ND joining an East coast conference full-time? How about the B1G (which, at present, at least has semi-annual game against the likes of Michigan/MSU/Purdue/etc.) seeing ND join the Big 12? ND, as an independent, does bring value to the P5 as a collective unit.

The only way ND will ever join a conference for football is one of three ways.

1) There is a creation of a new high academic/high athletic national conference (one where, likely, the top public state athletic institutions consolidate into a larger collective) composed of national private institutions. This would involve schools like ND, Duke, Stanford, Northwestern, Vanderbilt, Georgetown, Johns Hopkins, Rice, Tulane, Boston College, Miami, USC, Wake Forest, Baylor, TCU, Pittsburgh, Syracuse, etc.

2) There is a separation of the top-25/30, or so, of top college football programs (that form its own coalition), and Notre Dame is included. However, and ND fans can chime-in on this one, there is no guarantee ND would commit to this association either. This would not eliminate the ability to schedule nationally, but it would likely eliminate Navy and prevent a number of rotational programs (especially in the NE).

3) Pay-for-pay becomes a reality. I believe Swarbrick has been on record saying ND would not be part of such a grouping, but who knows what the alumni/donors would end up saying about that. This could lead to a grouping of the Option #1 schools (many of whom might very well choose not to do pay-for-play), but it also would eliminate the opportunity for a school like ND to compete for national championships/CFP annually (which is a very big deal for ND).

Again, while fun for exercise, it has to be echoed that ND is not joining an FBS conference for football given the current parameters and landscape for college football. Additionally, they will not be leaving the ACC for a long-time, either. They have their preferred arrangement in football, as well as the academic associations they desire as well.

1) ND would likely want partial membership in this conference as well, with football being independent.

2) For what it is worth, Father John Jenkins (ND's president) has said on multiple occasions that ND will not participate as well.

3) An emphatic yes to that entire paragraph.

There was never going to be a 4 team playoff either. We were told that repeatedly.
Money talks. If Notre Dame gets enough of what they want, they will do it.
If they get lots of money, better playoff access, attractive conference opponents AND scheduling flexibility, they most certainly will listen carefully.
(03-28-2020 07:40 PM)bullet Wrote: [ -> ]
(03-28-2020 06:39 PM)TerryD Wrote: [ -> ]
(03-28-2020 05:21 PM)GoldenWarrior11 Wrote: [ -> ]Notre Dame will never join the ACC, B1G, SEC, Big 12 or PAC in their present forms, rightfully so. As much as many would like to argue otherwise, for as much Notre Dame carries value as an independent in football, college football values Notre Dame being an independent as well. Would Stanford/USC (and the PAC) enjoy ND joining an East coast conference full-time? How about the B1G (which, at present, at least has semi-annual game against the likes of Michigan/MSU/Purdue/etc.) seeing ND join the Big 12? ND, as an independent, does bring value to the P5 as a collective unit.

The only way ND will ever join a conference for football is one of three ways.

1) There is a creation of a new high academic/high athletic national conference (one where, likely, the top public state athletic institutions consolidate into a larger collective) composed of national private institutions. This would involve schools like ND, Duke, Stanford, Northwestern, Vanderbilt, Georgetown, Johns Hopkins, Rice, Tulane, Boston College, Miami, USC, Wake Forest, Baylor, TCU, Pittsburgh, Syracuse, etc.

2) There is a separation of the top-25/30, or so, of top college football programs (that form its own coalition), and Notre Dame is included. However, and ND fans can chime-in on this one, there is no guarantee ND would commit to this association either. This would not eliminate the ability to schedule nationally, but it would likely eliminate Navy and prevent a number of rotational programs (especially in the NE).

3) Pay-for-pay becomes a reality. I believe Swarbrick has been on record saying ND would not be part of such a grouping, but who knows what the alumni/donors would end up saying about that. This could lead to a grouping of the Option #1 schools (many of whom might very well choose not to do pay-for-play), but it also would eliminate the opportunity for a school like ND to compete for national championships/CFP annually (which is a very big deal for ND).

Again, while fun for exercise, it has to be echoed that ND is not joining an FBS conference for football given the current parameters and landscape for college football. Additionally, they will not be leaving the ACC for a long-time, either. They have their preferred arrangement in football, as well as the academic associations they desire as well.

1) ND would likely want partial membership in this conference as well, with football being independent.

2) For what it is worth, Father John Jenkins (ND's president) has said on multiple occasions that ND will not participate as well.

3) An emphatic yes to that entire paragraph.

There was never going to be a 4 team playoff either. We were told that repeatedly.
Money talks. If Notre Dame gets enough of what they want, they will do it.
If they get lots of money, better playoff access, attractive conference opponents AND scheduling flexibility, they most certainly will listen carefully.


They could have had most or all of that in 2010. The Big Ten was after them, hard.

The result? A big no.

This scheme? ND might listen, but I think would decline.

That is just an attempt at "conference member creep" in trying to push ND to full membership.

("Its only two more games" would be the cry if ND ever agreed to this)
(03-28-2020 03:45 PM)Captain Bearcat Wrote: [ -> ]The only way Notre Dame joins a football conference is if they were somehow able to still have a nationwide schedule.

So if the conference was large, and didn't play many in-conference games, and rotated pods?

Like say if the ACC added Notre Dame, Navy, Texas, and Oklahoma and split into 5 pods of 4. Notre Dame's pod is: Notre Dame, Navy, Texas, and Oklahoma?

Or if the Big Ten added Notre Dame, Navy, USC, Stanford, Virginia, and North Carolina. Put ND, Navy, Stanford, and USC in the same pod. It wouldn't really work for anyone else though...

Four pods of five is the way to go IMHO
(03-29-2020 04:40 PM)TexanMark Wrote: [ -> ]
(03-28-2020 03:45 PM)Captain Bearcat Wrote: [ -> ]The only way Notre Dame joins a football conference is if they were somehow able to still have a nationwide schedule.

So if the conference was large, and didn't play many in-conference games, and rotated pods?

Like say if the ACC added Notre Dame, Navy, Texas, and Oklahoma and split into 5 pods of 4. Notre Dame's pod is: Notre Dame, Navy, Texas, and Oklahoma?

Or if the Big Ten added Notre Dame, Navy, USC, Stanford, Virginia, and North Carolina. Put ND, Navy, Stanford, and USC in the same pod. It wouldn't really work for anyone else though...

Four pods of five is the way to go IMHO

So the B$G adds USC, UCLA, Cal, Stanford and Notre Dame in one pod in the 2030s? Oklahoma to go with Nebraska, Iowa, Minnesota and Wisconsin, then Illinois, Northwestern, Michigan, Michigan St., Ohio St. and Indiana, Purdue, Penn ST., Rutgers and Maryland in the other pod.

Still makes for a 9 game conference schedule.
No to The Big 12. Zero interest in not being able to travel to road games without an airplane.
For a basketball school with a football problem, The ACC is perfect for Louisville.

Besides Notre Dame will never join a conference. The Irish might join if the path to the CFP is closed to Independents. Even that might not be enough. Independence is important to Notre Dame.

Who knows in a decade or two independence may be important to more than just The Irish.
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