I had meant to post this information before the CAA Tourney, but I could not find the time and did not know what it might portend. But, in the context of Shaver's firing, I thought it would be interesting to share now.
A couple of weeks ago, President Rowe spoke to W&M alumni working on Capitol Hill. I was among those alumni. She gave what probably is her usual stump speech for alums, and I thought she was obviously smart, engaging, and thoughtful. I think she has many good ideas for W&M.
She then asked for questions from the audience. I asked her to name what she thought was the one thing that made W&M stand out from its peers, and where did it lag.
She cited W&M's sense of community as well as a "willingness to change" on behalf of the faculty as positives. I think she mentioned other positives too, but those are the ones I recall.
As for the number one thing W&M must work on, she said - we must make into the NCAA men's basketball tournament. I was surprised.
She then listed all of the benefits such a victory would have on the morale of students and alums, our admissions rate, marketing efforts, and donations. She also noted that this effort would require more resources for the program (women's basketball too), and that she thought the CAA was a strong conference but a conference W&M could win. She also said that she was not in the business of settling for one NCAA appearance, nor would she be happy with losing in the NCAA tournament. She was hoping we'd go multiple times and have wins in her tenure here.
My heart soared when I heard this news. I was very happy to hear a W&M president so focused on this issue.
That said, I assumed during her comments that Coach Shaver would get at least a chance to run a properly resourced program. I did not know that his departure may already have been in the works.
Regardless, I will reserve final judgment until we see how everything plays out. I am hoping she and AD Huge know more than I do about this situation.
(03-14-2019 06:57 AM)Marshall Wythe Wrote: [ -> ]I had meant to post this information before the CAA Tourney, but I could not find the time and did not know what it might portend. But, in the context of Shaver's firing, I thought it would be interesting to share now.
A couple of weeks ago, President Rowe spoke to W&M alumni working on Capitol Hill. I was among those alumni. She gave what probably is her usual stump speech for alums, and I thought she was obviously smart, engaging, and thoughtful. I think she has many good ideas for W&M.
She then asked for questions from the audience. I asked her to name what she thought was the one thing that made W&M stand out from its peers, and where did it lag.
She cited W&M's sense of community as well as a "willingness to change" on behalf of the faculty as positives. I think she mentioned other positives too, but those are the ones I recall.
As for the number one thing W&M must work on, she said - we must make into the NCAA men's basketball tournament. I was surprised.
She then listed all of the benefits such a victory would have on the morale of students and alums, our admissions rate, marketing efforts, and donations. She also noted that this effort would require more resources for the program (women's basketball too), and that she thought the CAA was a strong conference but a conference W&M could win. She also said that she was not in the business of settling for one NCAA appearance, nor would she be happy with losing in the NCAA tournament. She was hoping we'd go multiple times and have wins in her tenure here.
My heart soared when I heard this news. I was very happy to hear a W&M president so focused on this issue.
That said, I assumed during her comments that Coach Shaver would get at least a chance to run a properly resourced program. I did not know that his departure may already have been in the works.
Regardless, I will reserve final judgment until we see how everything plays out. I am hoping she and AD Huge know more than I do about this situation.
Still very sad about Shaver, but this is GREAT news. I'm reserving judgment still on the Shaver decision, but investing in basketball is exactly what we should have been doing all along. No other athletic investment will have nearly as much payoff for the school as a whole if done right (to compare to football - even if we won an FCS championship, I don't think many alums would even notice, much less people beyond that). Shaver has proven that you can win at WM, and that's with no support whatsoever. Time to build on the momentum and growth of the past decade, and that can ONLY happen with proper support for the program. While like everyone here I hoped it would be Shaver who would get us over the hump, the fact that the administration now recognizes the importance of doing so is huge news.
I am also thrilled with President Rowe wanting a bigger commitment for MBB and WBB!
When I started giving to MBB 40 years ago and was talking with Jim Copeland (the AD at that time) we discussed the potential for Tribe MBB to have an impact. Believe it or not we were packing the Hall with more fans, had BETTER opponents for home games plus our arena was then state of the art!
The execution of this change was poorly managed versus the retirement for Laycock. There is no do over however so Huge hopefully has a plan to calm the Indians that have put on their warpath paint.
(03-14-2019 06:57 AM)Marshall Wythe Wrote: [ -> ]As for the number one thing W&M must work on, she said - we must make into the NCAA men's basketball tournament. I was surprised.
She then listed all of the benefits such a victory would have on the morale of students and alums, our admissions rate, marketing efforts, and donations. She also noted that this effort would require more resources for the program
What about the marked drop in morale of all Tribe fans about how this was handled. People all over who know W&M are shocked by how this went down (someone already posted comments from John Feinstein). What if the Tribe doesn't win next year, or the year after that, or not for a decade or more? A big big gamble that firing Tony will magically put us over the top. As many of us have commented, it shows a lack of understanding of W&M. Frankly, if actions like this are what it takes to make us "winners" then I think I would rather remain as the lovable loser (than sink to the corruption level of all the schools who win at all costs).
Speaking of costs and resources for the program: how does spending $1.7M to pay a coach not to coach count as good resource stewardship? How many NCAA tournament appearances would it take to actually finally make enough money just to pay off Tony? I have heard that a NCAAT appearance is worth about $400K initially and further payments over 5 years bring it to about $1.2M (ballpark). That is before expenses and also before any of it is shared with conference mates. So it would take several NCAAT appearances before W&M even realized enough money to pay off Tony. Of course, winning games in the tourney brings more such shares but anyone who thinks W&M would actually win more than one game (at most) in their first appearance hasn't watched too much March Madness.
(03-14-2019 11:20 AM)Zorch Wrote: [ -> ] (03-14-2019 06:57 AM)Marshall Wythe Wrote: [ -> ]As for the number one thing W&M must work on, she said - we must make into the NCAA men's basketball tournament. I was surprised.
She then listed all of the benefits such a victory would have on the morale of students and alums, our admissions rate, marketing efforts, and donations. She also noted that this effort would require more resources for the program
So it would take several NCAAT appearances before W&M even realized enough money to pay off Tony. Of course, winning games in the tourney brings more such shares but anyone who thinks W&M would actually win more than one game (at most) in their first appearance hasn't watched too much March Madness.
They call it Madness for a reason! With the right hire and retention of players a trip to the Sweet 16 would calm a lot of nerves but not justify the way Shaver was dismissed. It could have been handled better and in retrospect Huge will see that in later years.
(03-14-2019 12:08 PM)wmmii Wrote: [ -> ] (03-14-2019 11:20 AM)Zorch Wrote: [ -> ] (03-14-2019 06:57 AM)Marshall Wythe Wrote: [ -> ]As for the number one thing W&M must work on, she said - we must make into the NCAA men's basketball tournament. I was surprised.
She then listed all of the benefits such a victory would have on the morale of students and alums, our admissions rate, marketing efforts, and donations. She also noted that this effort would require more resources for the program
So it would take several NCAAT appearances before W&M even realized enough money to pay off Tony. Of course, winning games in the tourney brings more such shares but anyone who thinks W&M would actually win more than one game (at most) in their first appearance hasn't watched too much March Madness.
They call it Madness for a reason! With the right hire and retention of players a trip to the Sweet 16 would calm a lot of nerves but not justify the way Shaver was dismissed. It could have been handled better and in retrospect Huge will see that in later years.
I’m a big Tony fan, and also stinging from this decision. But in my “trying to move on” effort, I am left wondering about all the comments about how poorly this was handled. If Huge really thought this was the time to make the move (let’s get off that topic for a while ... not able to accurately evaluate until we see other chips fall, namely who the new coach/staff is and if the players stay), how do we know this was handled poorly? I don’t know what her conversation(s) were like with Tony, the players, etc. I don’t know how professionally or not the “letting go” was handled. For us to sit here from afar and claim this process was mismanaged implies we know far more than we do right now. Now, if those other details are better known at some point, then we maybe can make that claim then, but hard to say that now. Like I said I’m a huge Tony fan and still stunned, but trying to take a different look at this. We don’t know the inside details.
Any ideas on what the players thought of Tony? I assumed all positive but super hard to believe Huge would make this decision without strong confidence the 3 seniors at least would stick around. Despite any negatives you might feel about her, she’s not dumb and she clearly wants to win.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
(03-14-2019 12:27 PM)ColonelEbirt Wrote: [ -> ] (03-14-2019 11:20 AM)Zorch Wrote: [ -> ] (03-14-2019 06:57 AM)Marshall Wythe Wrote: [ -> ]As for the number one thing W&M must work on, she said - we must make into the NCAA men's basketball tournament. I was surprised.
She then listed all of the benefits such a victory would have on the morale of students and alums, our admissions rate, marketing efforts, and donations. She also noted that this effort would require more resources for the program
So it would take several NCAAT appearances before W&M even realized enough money to pay off Tony. Of course, winning games in the tourney brings more such shares but anyone who thinks W&M would actually win more than one game (at most) in their first appearance hasn't watched too much March Madness.
I’m a big Tony fan, and also stinging from this decision. But in my “trying to move on” effort, I am left wondering about all the comments about how poorly this was handled. If Huge really thought this was the time to make the move (let’s get off that topic for a while ... not able to accurately evaluate until we see other chips fall, namely who the new coach/staff is and if the players stay), how do we know this was handled poorly? I don’t know what her conversation(s) were like with Tony, the players, etc. I don’t know how professionally or not the “letting go” was handled. For us to sit here from afar and claim this process was mismanaged implies we know far more than we do right now. Now, if those other details are better known at some point, then we maybe can make that claim then, but hard to say that now. Like I said I’m a huge Tony fan and still stunned, but trying to take a different look at this. We don’t know the inside details.
Any ideas on what the players thought of Tony? I assumed all positive but super hard to believe Huge would make this decision without strong confidence the 3 seniors at least would stick around. Despite any negatives you might feel about her, she’s not dumb and she clearly wants to win.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
I am getting emails and calls from everyone asking why we fired Shaver. Regardless of what Huge and Shaver discussed the perception is not good on how it was handled and perception is reality.
This however should not taint how we greet the new coach and our support for MBB.
(03-14-2019 12:27 PM)ColonelEbirt Wrote: [ -> ]I’m a big Tony fan, and also stinging from this decision. But in my “trying to move on” effort, I am left wondering about all the comments about how poorly this was handled. .... how do we know this was handled poorly? I don’t know what her conversation(s) were like with Tony, the players, etc. I don’t know how professionally or not the “letting go” was handled. For us to sit here from afar and claim this process was mismanaged implies we know far more than we do right now. Now, if those other details are better known at some point, then we maybe can make that claim then, but hard to say that now. Like I said I’m a huge Tony fan and still stunned, but trying to take a different look at this. We don’t know the inside details.
Okay, Huge can feel free to illuminate her thinking and the inside details to those of us who think it was handled poorly. Her doing the deed when the team was on the brink and possibly closer than we have ever been -- thus denying Tony the chance to take "his team" to the promised land -- and then also paying the coach $1.7M to not coach ---- this all smacks of someone who isn't thinking clearly and needs to work on her people skills. I stick by what I wrote in another post/thread, namely: Huge had to do this now because if she waited one more year -- and Tony did break through and win the CAA Tournament -- then Huge would never be able to get rid of St. Tony and she would never be able to put "her guy" (whoever that is) in the marquee post and thus leave her mark on the college.
Zorch Wrote:I stick by what I wrote in another post/thread, namely: Huge had to do this now because if she waited one more year -- and Tony did break through and win the CAA Tournament -- then Huge would never be able to get rid of St. Tony and she would never be able to put "her guy" (whoever that is) in the marquee post and thus leave her mark on the college.
I disagree with Zorch on many, many occasions. But this is one where I honestly can’t help but come to the same conclusion. I’m sure this wasn’t the only factored, but in finding it hard to not believe it was a driving factor.
This is my issue with the whole thing. The only scenarios I can come up with that make this whole thing make sense, in particular in light of the $1.7m buyout, involve things that help Huge a lot more than they help the College.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
I'm not following the "why not wait one more year?" logic. If you aren't committed to Shaver for the medium term (like through 2022-2023), then you need to make the move while the cupboard is full and the job is as attractive as possible.
The other issue is how people are defining success. The promised land isn't just making the tournament once, it's winning our conference consistently, like Rowe says. So the question isn't if Huge thought Shaver could get the job done next year -- I'm sure she realizes that was achievable. The question is if Shaver is the guy to elevate the program to that next level. And if he's not, then waiting one more year isn't in the best interest of the program.
(03-14-2019 02:37 PM)Tank55 Wrote: [ -> ]I'm not following the "why not wait one more year?" logic. If you aren't committed to Shaver for the medium term (like through 2022-2023), then you need to make the move while the cupboard is full and the job is as attractive as possible.
While I don't think they should have let Shaver go based on the available information, I'm not sympathetic to the idea that he needed more time. He's had 16 years on the job. We're not talking about someone fired 18 months into a major rebuild.
(03-14-2019 02:37 PM)Tank55 Wrote: [ -> ]The other issue is how people are defining success. The promised land isn't just making the tournament once, it's winning our conference consistently, like Rowe says. So the question isn't if Huge thought Shaver could get the job done next year -- I'm sure she realizes that was achievable. The question is if Shaver is the guy to elevate the program to that next level. And if he's not, then waiting one more year isn't in the best interest of the program.
Shaver can recruit. Thornton was CAA POY. Prewitt was ROY. Tarpey was great. Knight IS great. So if Shaver can recruit guys like that to W&M even with our "loser" reputation then just imagine the guys he could get with one (or two or more) NCAAT appearances? Now, I guess we will never know whether Tony would have brought us to the next level -- because Tony was denied his best chance.
(03-14-2019 02:22 PM)wml33t Wrote: [ -> ]I disagree with Zorch on many, many occasions. But ....
I love it -- I get zinged even when you agree with me!
(03-14-2019 03:09 PM)Zorch Wrote: [ -> ] (03-14-2019 02:22 PM)wml33t Wrote: [ -> ]I disagree with Zorch on many, many occasions. But ....
I love it -- I get zinged even when you agree with me!
Heh... did not really intend it as a zing, but understand why you took it that way. I think I was trying to say that many of us that disagree on so many things seem to largely be coming together on this topic. That speaks volumes in my opinion.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
(03-14-2019 03:16 PM)wml33t Wrote: [ -> ] (03-14-2019 03:09 PM)Zorch Wrote: [ -> ] (03-14-2019 02:22 PM)wml33t Wrote: [ -> ]I disagree with Zorch on many, many occasions. But ....
I love it -- I get zinged even when you agree with me!
Heh... did not really intend it as a zing, but understand why you took it that way. I think I was trying to say that many of us that disagree on so many things seem to largely be coming together on this topic. That speaks volumes in my opinion.
Thanks for the clarification. Yes, it definitely seems like all the "usual suspects" posters have broken into one camp or the other. I think that there are more of us in the "I think that this was unfair to Tony and I really don't like how it was handled" camp.
Dr. Rowe was in the 2nd row for the Delaware game. Walked right by her on King Street 2 hours after the game. It occurs to me now that she was in Charleston for one of 2 reasons... to either celebrate cutting down the nets, or to authorize the expenditure of $1.7 million dollars to buy out Shaver's contract. There is no way in hell that this decision wasn't made well in advance, and it wouldn't be Huge's to make independently considering the cost. And I'll bet the BOV had input as well.
I don't care if Dr. Rowe, the BOV, and Thomas Jefferson from the grave signed off on this.....stupid decision to fire and even dumber to trigger the buyout clause. The school has NO extra money for this.
(03-14-2019 03:37 PM)Wilfus93 Wrote: [ -> ]I don't care if Dr. Rowe, the BOV, and Thomas Jefferson from the grave signed off on this.....stupid decision to fire and even dumber to trigger the buyout clause. The school has NO extra money for this.
You need to post more often.
Sent from my SM-G955U using Tapatalk
(03-14-2019 02:22 PM)wml33t Wrote: [ -> ]Zorch Wrote:I stick by what I wrote in another post/thread, namely: Huge had to do this now because if she waited one more year -- and Tony did break through and win the CAA Tournament -- then Huge would never be able to get rid of St. Tony and she would never be able to put "her guy" (whoever that is) in the marquee post and thus leave her mark on the college.
I disagree with Zorch on many, many occasions. But this is one where I honestly can’t help but come to the same conclusion. I’m sure this wasn’t the only factored, but in finding it hard to not believe it was a driving factor.
This is my issue with the whole thing. The only scenarios I can come up with that make this whole thing make sense, in particular in light of the $1.7m buyout, involve things that help Huge a lot more than they help the College.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Ding! The prize for determining the obvious motivation goes to you!
Let me ask folks on this board something. Do we really want the President of W&M saying that we "must" make the NCAA tournament? First, do any of you think that Katherine Rowe even knew there were 65 teams in the tournament, before she left Smith for William & Mary? Or that W&M had never participated?
Who do you think persuaded her of the need to make the tournament? Do you think Rowe has the independent knowledge to assess the viability of the advice she received? She spent nearly her entire career at Smith College after attending Carlton and Harvard. Her academic focus was Renaissance literature. Does that strike you as the pedigree for a March Madness junkie?
And further, is making the NCAA tournament going to do anything to enhance the brand of the college? I mean really. A tournament run? Maybe. But an appearance? Particularly one that ends in a first round loss? George Mason made the Final Four for god's sake. Did Mason experience a material transformation? Is it suddenly competing with Harvard for billion dollar donations and future Rhodes scholars?
I for one do not think that making the NCAA tournament in men's basketball will move the needle for our sports programs. It will be a huge talking point for two weeks, then be gone from the national scene as fast as Sister Jean. We may get some traction in recruiting. But truly moving the needle? No. That ship sailed in the early 70s, when we passed on the ACC.
This move is about one person. Huge. A blind man could see it in the dark. I'm thrilled that Tony gets to collect his $1.7 million. I wish it was twice that. Tony was a credit to this institution and deserves nothing more than to sit back at Kings Mill while this failed lawyer gets a brutal introduction to the realities of the game. The only unfortunate part is that if Huge falls on her face, the kids and the school suffer.
(03-14-2019 02:37 PM)Tank55 Wrote: [ -> ]I'm not following the "why not wait one more year?" logic. If you aren't committed to Shaver for the medium term (like through 2022-2023), then you need to make the move while the cupboard is full and the job is as attractive as possible.
A full cupboard means more to lose. The very real opportunity that we have (had?) next year could be in jeopardy if our guys experience any difficulty adjusting to new systems and new personalities or, worse still, any of them decide to follow Tony out the door.