CSNbbs

I have been a Tribe fan for, jeez, half my life now which has prompted me to post this but I have so disappointed in this team. It does not make sense to me how we are losing all the games we are. We are the deepest, and likely the most talented team in the conference. Every time we step on the court, we have the most talented player in Knight, the best shooter in the conference in Milon, the best pair of first years in Audige and Owens, and that does not even include the best all around player on our team, Pierce or the smartest guy on the court in Rowley.

Seems to be that players do not develop or improve over their time with the Tribe, we have a constant system that is great when we are not the most talented team but seems to hinder us the more talented our roster is, and we seem to never really adjust.

The above would point me towards coaching being the issue but maybe someone here can fill me in on what I am missing.

In order to “fill you in”, it might help to know what year you started being a Tribe fan.

(01-14-2019 04:55 PM)TribalBeaver Wrote: [ -> ]I have been a Tribe fan for, jeez, half my life now which has prompted me to post this but I have so disappointed in this team. It does not make sense to me how we are losing all the games we are. We are the deepest, and likely the most talented team in the conference. Every time we step on the court, we have the most talented player in Knight, the best shooter in the conference in Milon, the best pair of first years in Audige and Owens, and that does not even include the best all around player on our team, Pierce or the smartest guy on the court in Rowley.

Seems to be that players do not develop or improve over their time with the Tribe, we have a constant system that is great when we are not the most talented team but seems to hinder us the more talented our roster is, and we seem to never really adjust.

The above would point me towards coaching being the issue but maybe someone here can fill me in on what I am missing.

Welcome to the discussion. I cannot disagree with any of your comments. I've mentioned before that this is the most maddening Tribe team that I can recall. So much talent and so much schizophrenic play. For me, it comes down to lack of the type of point guard play this team needs. Much of that may be from thrusting freshmen or sophomores into the role that was played by a savvy senior. A good pg settles things down when the offense is ragged. A pg comfortable in this offense needs to apply pressure on the defense by being an option to penetrate. Not even necessarily to score, but to collapse the defense and get our shooters open looks.

There is far too much uncertainty and it shows in our favorite offensive set- the pass the ball around the deep perimeter before heaving up a semi open deep 3. It applies zero pressure on the defense and pretty much wastes our best scoring option in Knight. Guys are so overextended in the perimeter passing lanes waiting on our tentative passes. The relief is dribble penetration and/or back door cuts. Neither of which we look for enough, If I'm Shaver, the ball needs to go to Nate for a touch in the post on every possession. Make a team send double teams. Do something to take the Defense out of their comfort zone. On a positive, while not always successful, this is one of the better defending Tribe teams we've had in a while. Guys are working and competing.

(01-14-2019 04:55 PM)TribalBeaver Wrote: [ -> ]I have been a Tribe fan for, jeez, half my life now which has prompted me to post this but I have so disappointed in this team. It does not make sense to me how we are losing all the games we are. We are the deepest, and likely the most talented team in the conference. Every time we step on the court, we have the most talented player in Knight, the best shooter in the conference in Milon, the best pair of first years in Audige and Owens, and that does not even include the best all around player on our team, Pierce or the smartest guy on the court in Rowley.

Seems to be that players do not develop or improve over their time with the Tribe, we have a constant system that is great when we are not the most talented team but seems to hinder us the more talented our roster is, and we seem to never really adjust.

The above would point me towards coaching being the issue but maybe someone here can fill me in on what I am missing.

Well to start, we are nowhere near the most talented or the deepest team in the conference. Milon is not remotely the best shooter in the conference, and while you could maybe argue Knight is the most talented player in the conference, that is far from a certainty (and is certainly not being borne out by on court results). Rowley is an incredibly impressive individual who represents WM excellently, but just because he's in law school does not make him the smartest guy on the court necessarily.

What we are is a team with talent, but also a lot of youth. And our talent tends to be highly mercurial (particularly Pierce and Milon). So I would say that Shaver certainly has his hands full coaching this bunch.

We are not a good team right now. But this was always going to be a bridge year, and next year is the big one. So let's see how the freshman grow as the season goes on, whether Pierce, Milon, and Knight can grow and become more consistent, and how much Shaver can coach them up before we completely lose our minds.

This post is a set up. Unless this is a kid, we may have a mole. I think the Beaver's observations are good though. I do think we are one of the deepest teams in the conference and Milon is one of the best shooters. I also don't know what mercurial means and I am a grad of the college of knowledge. BTW, Pierce may be the best player in the CAA when we look back after ten years and see what they do at the next level.

TribalBeaver? Here we go...

(01-14-2019 07:49 PM)Tribal Wrote: [ -> ]TribalBeaver? Here we go...

Maybe a W&M/Oregon St fan?

I've been a Tribe/Indians fan for over 70% of my life, dating back to a Southern Conference containing W&M, Davidson, Richmond, East Carolina, VMI, Furman, The Citadel and Appalichain State with Lou Holtz as the HC for football and Warren Mitchell was the HC for MB, before the 2 feathers were a thing.

This year's men's basketball team is frustrating, but then again as young as it is that was expected. The problems we are experiencing this year are first world problems. If you've been around for as long as I have, you haven't always experienced first world problems. On the other hand, I 've seen extremely talented teams under Bruce Parkhill and Charlie Woollum.

I want, hope and root for things to click this year. I'm as frustrated as the next fan because of the unrealized potential on this team, but overstating the case to cry out the sky is falling is ridiculous. I really think that this team can still come through this year.

If you don't think players develop under Shaver, did you see Burchfield and Cohn play over their careers? How about Whitman, Dixon or Tarpey?

All this is to say that I'm disappointed as well, but not willing to become chicken little.

Okay, we are not the most talented team in the league. Maybe 4th at best after Hofstra, NU, and Charleston. Milon is probably top 5, but not the best shooter in the league. I like our freshmen, but there still freshmen and our team is very young overall. Knight may be the best big in the league, but he's no use when he's on the bench with foul trouble. Saying players don't develop under Shaver is a ridiculous statement.

This team has been somewhat frustrating because there is considerable talent and that talent has not been maximized as reflected in the win-loss record. The reasons for this are numerous (No particular order):

1) We have barley played a game this season when everyone was healthy and in game shape
2) Rowley's has yet to find his 3-pt stroke
3) Milon is shooting okay from 3, but not as well as last year
4) Too many unforced TOs
5) Stretches of game with poor shot selection
6) Free-throw shooting woes, particularly from Pierce
7) Knight is a foul magnet (partly his fault with some silly fouls, some horrendous refereeing)
8) Knight not getting enough touches in post
9) Meshing youth and veterans, taking time in OOC to find and establish rotation
10) No single/great answer at PG. Loewe brings the best defense and is decent finishing around the rim, but has not been able to knock down open perimeter shots. Scot has shown well for a freshman, but shows his inexperience. Both with a few bad TOs most games.

Most of these are on the players or just a function of having so many freshmen/soph to integrate. Justin has played through a lot of injuries, but when he's healthy he needs to be more aggressive and put pressure on the defense, and then knock down free-throws. Nathan can't pick up silly fouls (like he did on Sat trying to bring the ball up the court). Hopefully Milon and Rowley will start shooting up to their capabilities.

I recall being frustrated when we had Rusthoven. His junior and senior years I believe he shot around or above 50% from the floor. Most games he was seemingly automatic when he got the ball down low, but we never tweaked the offense to get him more touches on the block. I have had the same feeling this year with Knight. Too much time spent by Nathan handling the ball at the top of the key. Yes, he's a great passer for a big man and gets some nice assists on the backdoor cuts. But, he also picks up some silly/bad fouls/calls for illegal screens out there. When the perimeter shots aren't falling, as they haven't in several games this year, we need to run the offense through Nathan on the post and/or Justin driving to the hoop.

As others have said, despite some frustration, this is not a bad Tribe iteration. The good news is most of the issues are correctable. The raw materials are there. I have confidence in Shaver and think this team's best basketball lies ahead.

Very good analysis by WMTribe90.

Youth+inconsistency+persistent injuries+most difficult non-conference schedule ever add up to our current negative won-lost record.

And how quickly we forget that one or two Tribe points more in the UIC, Delaware and Hofstra games would add up to victories and we'd be very pleased with this team at this juncture.

I'll be interested to see how things look at this Saturday's Elon game. Might we see Owens at point guard at some time? Possible.

i have been a MBB fan since 1968 and still remember watching on TV the first game in the Hall between us and UNC. This program has progressed a long way and the credit goes to Shaver and his staff. Since they are human, mistakes will be made and i see that they do learn from them. It will be interesting to see which version of this team takes the court against Elon on Saturday after a week of intensive practice.

This team lacks the cohesiveness of last year's team due to us having 6 new players and no overseas trip like last year. Sadly it is drifting towards the pattern of the 2016-17 team so the next two weeks will go a long way in seeing if they will gel as they go on a road trip South. JP needs to decide if he will follow the path of Prewitt or Tarpey in his team play. Knight needs to quit making dumb fouls. The team needs to concentrate better when taking FT as that has cost us at least 3-4 games.

We have the right coaches and the talent so it is up to juniors and Rowley to decide their legacy.

(01-14-2019 11:24 PM)WMTribe90 Wrote: [ -> ]Okay, we are not the most talented team in the league. Maybe 4th at best after Hofstra, NU, and Charleston. Milon is probably top 5, but not the best shooter in the league. I like our freshmen, but there still freshmen and our team is very young overall. Knight may be the best big in the league, but he's no use when he's on the bench with foul trouble. Saying players don't develop under Shaver is a ridiculous statement.

This team has been somewhat frustrating because there is considerable talent and that talent has not been maximized as reflected in the win-loss record. The reasons for this are numerous (No particular order):

1) We have barley played a game this season when everyone was healthy and in game shape
2) Rowley's has yet to find his 3-pt stroke
3) Milon is shooting okay from 3, but not as well as last year
4) Too many unforced TOs
5) Stretches of game with poor shot selection
6) Free-throw shooting woes, particularly from Pierce
7) Knight is a foul magnet (partly his fault with some silly fouls, some horrendous refereeing)
8) Knight not getting enough touches in post
9) Meshing youth and veterans, taking time in OOC to find and establish rotation
10) No single/great answer at PG. Loewe brings the best defense and is decent finishing around the rim, but has not been able to knock down open perimeter shots. Scot has shown well for a freshman, but shows his inexperience. Both with a few bad TOs most games.

Most of these are on the players or just a function of having so many freshmen/soph to integrate. Justin has played through a lot of injuries, but when he's healthy he needs to be more aggressive and put pressure on the defense, and then knock down free-throws. Nathan can't pick up silly fouls (like he did on Sat trying to bring the ball up the court). Hopefully Milon and Rowley will start shooting up to their capabilities.

I recall being frustrated when we had Rusthoven. His junior and senior years I believe he shot around or above 50% from the floor. Most games he was seemingly automatic when he got the ball down low, but we never tweaked the offense to get him more touches on the block. I have had the same feeling this year with Knight. Too much time spent by Nathan handling the ball at the top of the key. Yes, he's a great passer for a big man and gets some nice assists on the backdoor cuts. But, he also picks up some silly/bad fouls/calls for illegal screens out there. When the perimeter shots aren't falling, as they haven't in several games this year, we need to run the offense through Nathan on the post and/or Justin driving to the hoop.

As others have said, despite some frustration, this is not a bad Tribe iteration. The good news is most of the issues are correctable. The raw materials are there. I have confidence in Shaver and think this team's best basketball lies ahead.

Just a flat out excellent analysis!!

(01-14-2019 11:24 PM)WMTribe90 Wrote: [ -> ]2) Rowley has yet to find his 3-pt stroke
4) Too many unforced TOs
5) Stretches of game with poor shot selection
6) Free-throw shooting woes, particularly from Pierce
7) Knight is a foul magnet
8) Knight not getting enough touches in post

Justin ... needs to be more aggressive .... Nathan can't pick up silly fouls (like he did on Sat trying to bring the ball up the court).

The points that I most agree with are the ones remaining above.

Re Justin -- that is a guy who it is hard to believe that he could be even more aggressive on the court than he already is.

Re Nathan -- that foul while trying to bring the ball over the timeline was one of the worst that I have seen in years. And the blame is not just on Nathan. It reflects poorly on the coaches and the other players on the court that he was even in that position to begin with. There is a reason why Centers don't bring the ball up court. They are helpless against short, quick guards out to make a steal. I never once saw Wilt bring the ball up court, nor Kareem. So, coaches/teammates, stop making things easier for the opponents by doing stupid stuff like that.

(01-15-2019 08:27 AM)wmmii Wrote: [ -> ]It will be interesting to see which version of this team takes the court against Elon on Saturday after a week of intensive practice.

It is almost too bad that we will be "wasting" this effort on Elon. That is, when Delaware lost by 45 to Hofstra, their next game was against a good Northeastern team and they won. So too bad the Tribe isn't playing Charleston or Hofstra again after this week of intensive practice. (By the way, to counter my own point, Elon has actually played well in several close losses this year. We really shouldn't take this game lightly).

As long as Tony figures it out by the CAA tournament, it really is moot. I am confident he will have us at top form by then. That's the only way to get into the NCAA tourney, anyway.

(01-15-2019 08:27 AM)wmmii Wrote: [ -> ]i have been a MBB fan since 1968 and still remember watching on TV the first game in the Hall between us and UNC. This program has progressed a long way and the credit goes to Shaver and his staff. Since they are human, mistakes will be made and i see that they do learn from them. It will be interesting to see which version of this team takes the court against Elon on Saturday after a week of intensive practice.

This team lacks the cohesiveness of last year's team due to us having 6 new players and no overseas trip like last year. Sadly it is drifting towards the pattern of the 2016-17 team so the next two weeks will go a long way in seeing if they will gel as they go on a road trip South. JP needs to decide if he will follow the path of Prewitt or Tarpey in his team play. Knight needs to quit making dumb fouls. The team needs to concentrate better when taking FT as that has cost us at least 3-4 games.

We have the right coaches and the talent so it is up to juniors and Rowley to decide their legacy.

I hear the frustration, but ultimately the 16-17 team ran into a really good UNCW team in the semis, just like the team last year ran into the eventual champion. As for only the tourney mattering, that is true in the most literal sense. But, the seeding has traditionally determined which few teams have a real shot to win the CAA tourney. It would appear we have got to be in the top 3 to have a shot. We have a long way to go to get to the top 3 by March 2nd. But, the margins in the league are again, razor-thin. Would any of us be this "disappointed" if the Tribe had won at either Delaware or over Hofstra on Thursday?

But, many of us also forget that the other 9 teams in this league are also actually trying to win. Sometimes, the other team plays better. Every loss is not always a full referendum on the coaching staff, the players togetherness, leadership, or lack of effort. Sometimes, the other side has Grant Riller, Wright-Foreman or another player who does amazing things. Hopefully, disappointment turns to joy over the next 8 weeks. There are still some sparks that make that a possibility.

(01-14-2019 05:52 PM)mrjoolius Wrote: [ -> ]

(01-14-2019 04:55 PM)TribalBeaver Wrote: [ -> ]I have been a Tribe fan for, jeez, half my life now which has prompted me to post this but I have so disappointed in this team. It does not make sense to me how we are losing all the games we are. We are the deepest, and likely the most talented team in the conference. Every time we step on the court, we have the most talented player in Knight, the best shooter in the conference in Milon, the best pair of first years in Audige and Owens, and that does not even include the best all around player on our team, Pierce or the smartest guy on the court in Rowley.

Seems to be that players do not develop or improve over their time with the Tribe, we have a constant system that is great when we are not the most talented team but seems to hinder us the more talented our roster is, and we seem to never really adjust.

The above would point me towards coaching being the issue but maybe someone here can fill me in on what I am missing.

Welcome to the discussion. I cannot disagree with any of your comments. I've mentioned before that this is the most maddening Tribe team that I can recall. So much talent and so much schizophrenic play. For me, it comes down to lack of the type of point guard play this team needs. Much of that may be from thrusting freshmen or sophomores into the role that was played by a savvy senior. A good pg settles things down when the offense is ragged. A pg comfortable in this offense needs to apply pressure on the defense by being an option to penetrate. Not even necessarily to score, but to collapse the defense and get our shooters open looks.

There is far too much uncertainty and it shows in our favorite offensive set- the pass the ball around the deep perimeter before heaving up a semi open deep 3. It applies zero pressure on the defense and pretty much wastes our best scoring option in Knight. Guys are so overextended in the perimeter passing lanes waiting on our tentative passes. The relief is dribble penetration and/or back door cuts. Neither of which we look for enough, If I'm Shaver, the ball needs to go to Nate for a touch in the post on every possession. Make a team send double teams. Do something to take the Defense out of their comfort zone. On a positive, while not always successful, this is one of the better defending Tribe teams we've had in a while. Guys are working and competing.

Thank you! Point guard does make a lot of sense. Thinking about it we have excelled at the guard position in the past and this years team definitely has our best players at other positions.

Milon is nowhere near close to the best shooter in the league. If you had said the streakiest shooter, I might buy that one. Also, while Audige and Owens are good, other teams in the CAA also have good freshmen. And while not as bad as last year, our defense is still (for the most part) bad.

Again, PG play was a concern going into the year and it has been a concern the entire season. Thornton is nowhere near ready to be playing minutes and Loewe just doesn't contribute on the offensive end. I thought he actually looked decent playing off the ball and making cuts to the hoop for layups in the Hofstra game and might be able to fill that role, especially when Knight is doubled on the block. Not having a true PG hurts, and from what I have seen on this roster, we don't have one.

Who are you thinking about? I haven't seen them. Horton and Wynter looked okay, but didn't have good games against us. Let's see who's on the all rookie team at the end and revisit this.

(01-15-2019 11:25 PM)WMtribe17 Wrote: [ -> ]Also, while Audige and Owens are good, other teams in the CAA also have good freshmen.

(01-16-2019 07:10 AM)Tribe32 Wrote: [ -> ]Who are you thinking about? I haven't seen them. Horton and Wynter looked okay, but didn't have good games against us. Let's see who's on the all rookie team at the end and revisit this.

(01-15-2019 11:25 PM)WMtribe17 Wrote: [ -> ]Also, while Audige and Owens are good, other teams in the CAA also have good freshmen.

Let's not get too quick to anoint the best rookie just yet. Just because we don't see them regularly, there are several other good youngsters in the league.

In my opinion, Chase, Cameron Wynter (Drexel), Kai Toews (UNCW) and Ithiel Horton (Delaware) are the best of the newcomers, but do not sleep on Solomon Uyaelunmo (Towson) or Charleston's pair of Jaylen Richard and Zep Jasper, Deshon Parker (JMU) and, of course, LJ.

Heck, Toews is third in the nation in assists with 7.9 a game!
Horton is averaging 13.8 a game and Wynter is also averaging double figures at 10.3 a game.
Uyaelunmo (I can't wait to hear Jay pronounce HIS name all game...) started out slow, but has been very productive the last few weeks and Parker is a good young point guard.

My All Rookie Team, right now, would consist of:

Kai Toews
Chase Audige
Ithiel Horton
Camren Wynter
and depending on the rest of the season, either
LJ Owens or Deshon Parker

Toews would win ROY right now (again, subject to how the rest of the season plays out).

So, yeah, there are some other talented frosh in the league this year.

(01-16-2019 09:40 AM)billymac Wrote: [ -> ]

(01-16-2019 07:10 AM)Tribe32 Wrote: [ -> ]Who are you thinking about? I haven't seen them. Horton and Wynter looked okay, but didn't have good games against us. Let's see who's on the all rookie team at the end and revisit this.

(01-15-2019 11:25 PM)WMtribe17 Wrote: [ -> ]Also, while Audige and Owens are good, other teams in the CAA also have good freshmen.

Let's not get too quick to anoint the best rookie just yet. Just because we don't see them regularly, there are several other good youngsters in the league.

In my opinion, Chase, Cameron Wynter (Drexel), Kai Toews (UNCW) and Ithiel Horton (Delaware) are the best of the newcomers, but do not sleep on Solomon Uyaelunmo (Towson) or Charleston's pair of Jaylen Richard and Zep Jasper, Deshon Parker (JMU) and, of course, LJ.

Heck, Toews is third in the nation in assists with 7.9 a game!
Horton is averaging 13.8 a game and Wynter is also averaging double figures at 10.3 a game.
Uyaelunmo (I can't wait to hear Jay pronounce HIS name all game...) started out slow, but has been very productive the last few weeks and Parker is a good young point guard.

My All Rookie Team, right now, would consist of:

Kai Toews
Chase Audige
Ithiel Horton
Camren Wynter
and depending on the rest of the season, either
LJ Owens or Deshon Parker

Toews would win ROY right now (again, subject to how the rest of the season plays out).

So, yeah, there are some other talented frosh in the league this year.

I'm glad you posted this, Billymac! I was going to name the other top three names myself but your post was already there -- and you named some other good frosh, to boot! So, yes, at the moment, the Tribe does not have a lock on frosh of the year. By the way, the original poster did say that we had "the best pair" of freshmen so, in that regard, I would say that it was a true statement.