BYU fan here. Don't worry, I come in peace.
I saw the thread on here discussing the possibility of Rice going Independent in football, and thought I'd add the perspective of a BYU fan---BYU having gone Independent in 2011.
First, Independence has been a mixed bag. The overwhelming majority of BYU fans prefer Independence in football to the MWC, but some miss competing for a conference championship and some old MWC basketball rivalries. Also, when you are in a conference, it can be fun to cheer for conference mates to do well out of conference. You don't get that with independence.
That said, going Independent has been a POSITIVE, and has allowed BYU to get greater TV exposure (an ESPN contract), and to play more P5 games. BYU still schedules a lot of MWC schools in football and basketball, too. Also, BYU joined the WCC, which is trending to be a stronger basketball and baseball conference than the MWC. If you asked for a vote, most BYU fans like Independence, but would be happier if BYU ever got an invite to the PAC12 or BIG12 (not likely). So BYU is probably content to be Independent for a long time. The WCC membership has worked out very well (10 private, religious schools).
I think the key to being a successful Independent football program is having a few annual rivalry games. September scheduling is easy. But October/November scheduling can be a challenge (unless you have annual rivalries). Here is what BYU and Notre Dame have:
BYU -- Boise and USU (annually); Utah (annually, who only wants to play in September)
Notre Dame -- Navy, USC, Stanford, Purdue, ACC scheduling agreement.
I don't doubt for a second that if Rice decided to go Independent in football, that BYU would be the first to call Rice up and ask if Rice was interested in an annual, rotating rivalry. Heck, I think BYU would be interested in playing Rice a lot right now---there are a lot of Mormons in Houston, and BYU would love to have an annual rivalry with an academically prestigious school like Rice.
Anyway, that's my 2 cents. From an outsider's perspective, it feels like Rice is being forgotten in CUSA, which is about akin to the Sun Belt. I think that Rice could definitely elevate its football program if it went Independent. But there would be some challenges.
Also, expounding on my post, I guess Rice could pursue the following annual rivalry games?
BYU, Liberty, Houston, Army
I could also see Rice scheduling academically similar institutions more often---Stanford, Duke, Vanderbilt, Northwestern, Virginia.
Thanks for the post Robert. Your 'reality' mirrors that which some of us have only been able to speculate.
BYU is a school I didn't mention, but you hit many of the same notes of those I (and others) did. Most of our suggestions included rivalries with the same schools you're talking about, plus like you schedule some MWC schools, we could schedule some CUSA schools.... especially with physically close, UTSA, UNT, UTEP and even La Tech.
It was fun being in conference with BYU
I still think the main reason that Rice has been forgotten is that Rice has been bad. The key is getting to be competitive, or really better than merely competitive. To be relevant in CUSA, Rice needs to dominate the conference. I think that going independent without substantially improving the product would mean a fairly quick end to the program. The scheduling difficulties in November and even October, when teams in a conference have conference games, would be huge. And scheduling of non-revenue sports would present bigger problems. BYU has one huge advantage over Rice—as do the service academies and Norte Dame—a national following. Getting better solves a lot of Rice’s issues. I’m not convinced that independence is doable or would solve problems if it could be done.
That said, the idea of establishing a long-term rivalry with BYU has great potential appeal.
(12-10-2018 03:27 PM)Owl 69/70/75 Wrote: [ -> ]I still think the main reason that Rice has been forgotten is that Rice has been bad. The key is getting to be competitive, or really better than merely competitive. To be relevant in CUSA, Rice needs to dominate the conference. I think that going independent without substantially improving the product would mean a fairly quick end to the program. The scheduling difficulties in November and even October, when teams in a conference have conference games, would be huge. And scheduling of non-revenue sports would present bigger problems. BYU has one huge advantage over Rice—as do the service academies and Norte Dame—a national following. Getting better solves a lot of Rice’s issues. I’m not convinced that independence is doable or would solve problems if it could be done.
That said, the idea of establishing a long-term rivalry with BYU has great potential appeal.
It's a chicken or egg problem at this point. How do we get good enough to dominate C-USA, when good football players by and large don't want to play in C-USA? I just don't see a lot of interest in playing against Old Dominion or Charlotte in front of an empty stadium from players who 1) can academically qualify and 2) have better options. I don't think it's a coincidence that our recruiting has trended downwards since the good teams left our conference. Bloom and co are trying and have found some diamonds in the rough so far, so I guess we'll see.
I would love to play BYU.
(12-10-2018 03:50 PM)RiceFootball2K5 Wrote: [ -> ] (12-10-2018 03:27 PM)Owl 69/70/75 Wrote: [ -> ]I still think the main reason that Rice has been forgotten is that Rice has been bad. The key is getting to be competitive, or really better than merely competitive. To be relevant in CUSA, Rice needs to dominate the conference. I think that going independent without substantially improving the product would mean a fairly quick end to the program. The scheduling difficulties in November and even October, when teams in a conference have conference games, would be huge. And scheduling of non-revenue sports would present bigger problems. BYU has one huge advantage over Rice—as do the service academies and Norte Dame—a national following. Getting better solves a lot of Rice’s issues. I’m not convinced that independence is doable or would solve problems if it could be done.
That said, the idea of establishing a long-term rivalry with BYU has great potential appeal.
It's a chicken or egg problem at this point. How do we get good enough to dominate C-USA, when good football players by and large don't want to play in C-USA? I just don't see a lot of interest in playing against Old Dominion or Charlotte in front of an empty stadium from players who 1) can academically qualify and 2) have better options. I don't think it's a coincidence that our recruiting has trended downwards since the good teams left our conference. Bloom and co are trying and have found some diamonds in the rough so far, so I guess we'll see.
I would love to play BYU.
Well, for one thing, those good football players don't want to go to Old Dominion or Charlotte either, so it's not like we are behind the rest of CUSA in that regard. I still think we could put together an attractive package by playing name schools in our non-conference schedule. We probably have a lot better chance of scheduling TexasU or aTM or even LSU than do most of our CUSA brethren--at least we have a history there. I could see a schedule of UH, some combination of two big names out of TexasU/aTm/LSU, and a peer academic school--academies, Stanford, Duke, Northwestern, Vandy--as offering a recruit multiple opportunities to play on the big stage, plus a conference--CUSA--where we can win the league and go to a bowl almost every year. I could see BYU in the mix as either one of the big-name schools or one of the peer schools. I don't really see many other schools being able to offer both the big stage and the consistent conference winner/contender. We can't either--until we get better--but we can get better.
Again, without a national base, I don't see independence as the way to go long term. I think most current independents either have a national fan base (ND, BYU, Army) or are in a transitional state (NMSU, Liberty). I think the latter group would prefer not to be independent if they can find a suitable conference.
Obviously, we would be a lot better off if there were an Ivy-Leauge-like set of academic and athletic peers nearby. But we're at least 1000 miles away from that being likely to happen.
Since BYU left the MWC and went Independent, it has scheduled 4 games with the University of Houston (2 upcoming), and a neutral game vs LSU in Houston, which had to be moved to New Orleans due to the hurricane. Clearly, BYU wants more games in Texas and Houston.
BYU fans have asked why BYU hasn't tried to schedule Rice more often. The conversation was that Rice had annual games with Texas and SMU, and probably didn't have room on their schedule. I recall something about Rice scheduling games on the Longhorn Network.
Anyway, yes, I think BYU would love to start scheduling Rice a lot more....maybe even annually. If Rice officials ever wanted to weigh going Independent, they schould travel to Provo and meet and discuss the challenges and logistics. Biggest challenge with going Independent is creating a schedule for years 1 and 2 (schools are scheduled years in advance). And finding a conference for non-football sports.
Honestly, it's too bad that Rice isn't closer to the West Coast Conference. That'd be a great fit as well. Though, WCC schools already play a lot of games in Texas.
With respect to Robert... of course we don't know whether he is an insider or not....
but his comments about BYU wanting to schedule more games in Houston because of a) recruiting and b) the number of THEIR fans here is the key reason I see opportunity for us. Whether we are independent or merely push for a more compact division within CUSA (fewer crossovers), I think this is the model we should look at. Find schools that want to play more in Houston (like it seems BYU) and schedule regular home and homes with them... develop rivalries as we can.. and schedule fewer Fla, NC, VA, Tn schools who have almost no traveling party. Not a knock on those schools... just we don't need more schools with our same issues.
Maybe Robert and I are just of similar mindsets but still wrong
I think the complete answer to our guest's question is: Absolutely!
When can we start?
I would be happy to see Rice play BYU more often, regardless of whether that is as fellow independent teams (where it would be a necessity from Rice's standpoint from a scheduling perspective) or with Rice staying in CUSA (replacing some of the weaker OOC opponents with BYU). I've long wanted Rice to seriously study the possibility of going independent, or trying to help forge a confederation of independents that weren't a conference (no revenue sharing or conference championship), but had some of the benefits of the conference (scheduling agreements, bowl participation).
(12-10-2018 04:35 PM)Hambone10 Wrote: [ -> ]With respect to Robert... of course we don't know whether he is an insider or not....
but his comments about BYU wanting to schedule more games in Houston because of a) recruiting and b) the number of THEIR fans here is the key reason I see opportunity for us. Whether we are independent or merely push for a more compact division within CUSA (fewer crossovers), I think this is the model we should look at. Find schools that want to play more in Houston (like it seems BYU) and schedule regular home and homes with them... develop rivalries as we can.. and schedule fewer Fla, NC, VA, Tn schools who have almost no traveling party. Not a knock on those schools... just we don't need more schools with our same issues.
Maybe Robert and I are just of similar mindsets but still wrong
The last time BYU played in Houston was October, 2013, when BYU played the University of Houston in Reliant Stadium. Official attendance was 33, 115, of which approximately 40% (13,250) were BYU fans. Attendance probably would have been more if Houston had brought more fans.
http://archive.sltrib.com/article.php?id...type=CMSID
I'd expect that BYU would bring about 15,000 to 20,000 fans for any game played in Houston. These would almost all be locals---BYU fans living in Houston or a few hours away. So, if Rice played BYU, you could expect about 15,000 BYU fans at your stadium (hope you wouldn't be annoyed by that).
(12-10-2018 04:42 PM)georgewebb Wrote: [ -> ]I think the complete answer to our guest's question is: Absolutely!
When can we start?
Tell Rice's AD to call BYU's AD, Tom Holmoe.
Seriously, I think BYU would schedule Rice for a 10-year home and home deal (what it does with Boise) if Rice's AD expressed interest. It of course would do fewer games than that too. It would be the start of a rivalry.
But the power is totally in Rice's hands. They'd have to want to do it.
BYU has said that one of the goals of being independent is to schedule similar schools. Rice is highly respected academically, and fits the profile of what BYU wants.
(12-10-2018 04:06 PM)MWCRobert Wrote: [ -> ]Since BYU left the MWC and went Independent, it has scheduled 4 games with the University of Houston (2 upcoming), and a neutral game vs LSU in Houston, which had to be moved to New Orleans due to the hurricane. Clearly, BYU wants more games in Texas and Houston.
BYU fans have asked why BYU hasn't tried to schedule Rice more often. The conversation was that Rice had annual games with Texas and SMU, and probably didn't have room on their schedule. I recall something about Rice scheduling games on the Longhorn Network.
Anyway, yes, I think BYU would love to start scheduling Rice a lot more....maybe even annually. If Rice officials ever wanted to weigh going Independent, they schould travel to Provo and meet and discuss the challenges and logistics. Biggest challenge with going Independent is creating a schedule for years 1 and 2 (schools are scheduled years in advance). And finding a conference for non-football sports.
Honestly, it's too bad that Rice isn't closer to the West Coast Conference. That'd be a great fit as well. Though, WCC schools already play a lot of games in Texas.
Our home and home with Texas is not perennial. In fact they havent played since 2015, and only that once since '11. I think there is a three year Houston site (NRG, not Rice Stadium) ('19), UT home ('21), and UT home ('22) with them upcoming.
Rice hasnt played SMU since SMU departed the CUSA for the AAC in 2013 (i.e. last game with them was in 2012), and no games are under contract at all with them for the future. IIRC, isnt a Rice-Baylor game under contract for next season?
I also think that Rice's full non-conference schedule is already under contract for '20 and '21, and only one slot open for each of '22 and '23.
Notwithstanding I think an ongoing BYU game would be a great thing.....
(12-10-2018 04:53 PM)MWCRobert Wrote: [ -> ]So, if Rice played BYU, you could expect about 15,000 BYU fans at your stadium (hope you wouldn't be annoyed by that).
We'd only be upset you didn't bring 20k lol. They'd be very welcome.
I'd hope we'd develop a reputation like Arkansas used to have... Before and after the game, nicest people in the world. You dreaded them from kick off to last whistle though.
(12-10-2018 04:56 PM)MWCRobert Wrote: [ -> ] (12-10-2018 04:42 PM)georgewebb Wrote: [ -> ]I think the complete answer to our guest's question is: Absolutely!
When can we start?
Tell Rice's AD to call BYU's AD, Tom Holmoe.
Seriously, I think BYU would schedule Rice for a 10-year home and home deal (what it does with Boise) if Rice's AD expressed interest. It of course would do fewer games than that too. It would be the start of a rivalry.
But the power is totally in Rice's hands. They'd have to want to do it.
BYU has said that one of the goals of being independent is to schedule similar schools. Rice is highly respected academically, and fits the profile of what BYU wants.
This fits so well with us. Thanks for stopping by.
Rice future opponents:
2019
Aug. 30 - @ Army
Sept. 7 - WAKE FOREST
Sept. 14 - Texas (at NRG)
Sept. 21 - BAYLOR
2020
Sept. 5 - @ Houston
Sept. 12 - ARMY
Sept. 19 - LSU (at NRG)
Sept. 26 - LAMAR
2021
Sept. 4 - @ Oklahoma State
Sept. 11 - HOUSTON
Sept. 18 - @ Texas
Sept. 25 - T.S.U.
2022
Sept. 3 - @ U.S.C.
Sept. 10 - LOUISIANA
Sept. 24 - @ Houston
2023
Sept. 2 - @ Texas
Sept. 9 - HOUSTON
Sept. 23 @ Boise State
2024
Sept. 7 - @ L.S.U.
2025
Sept. 6 - @ Louisiana
2027
Sept. 4 - BOISE STATE
2029
Sept. 8 - NORTHWESTERN
2031
Sept. 6 - @ Northwestern
BYU has a brutal opening 4-game stretch next season:
August 29 - UTAH
September 7 - @ Tennessee
September 14 - U.S.C.
September 21 - WASHINGTON
(12-10-2018 07:41 PM)WRCisforgotten79 Wrote: [ -> ]Rice future opponents:
2019
Aug. 30 - @ Army
Sept. 7 - WAKE FOREST
Sept. 14 - Texas (at NRG)
Sept. 21 - BAYLOR
2020
Sept. 5 - @ Houston
Sept. 12 - ARMY
Sept. 19 - LSU (at NRG)
Sept. 26 - LAMAR
2021
Sept. 4 - @ Oklahoma State
Sept. 11 - HOUSTON
Sept. 18 - @ Texas
Sept. 25 - T.S.U.
2022
Sept. 3 - @ U.S.C.
Sept. 10 - LOUISIANA
Sept. 24 - @ Houston
2023
Sept. 2 - @ Texas
Sept. 9 - HOUSTON
Sept. 23 @ Boise State
2024
Sept. 7 - @ L.S.U.
2025
Sept. 6 - @ Louisiana
2027
Sept. 4 - BOISE STATE
2029
Sept. 8 - NORTHWESTERN
2031
Sept. 6 - @ Northwestern
Thanks for the info, WRC.
So we could conceivably do a 10-year deal starting as early as 2022. Although with 2 road non-conference games already set for 22022 and 2023, we would probably want to add a home game in both, and I doubt BYU would want to start the series by coming here two consecutive years. But we could certainly start here in 2023 and alternate odd years here and even years there through 2032.
I don't want to burst the poster's bubble, but Rice going independent makes little sense. Number 1, Rice is not going to get anyone to agree to televise their games and make even incremental media revenue. It doesn't have 5% of BYU's national following. Number 2, BYU is not going to schedule a home and home with Rice IMO. Rice might get a 2-1 like they get with Texas and LSU. Rice would be playing "Maybe" 4 home games a year as an independent which would probably be a 1-AA team, 2 lower level G5's, and every other year a name P5 program.
What leverage would Rice have to schedule games and you can forget about ever going to a bowl game (not that I care for bowl games).
Then you are probably placing your other sports in a lesser conference (Southland maybe).
I guess my question would be, what is the benefit of Rice going independent for football? I don't see any.
The President would probably object since he is so far left.
(12-10-2018 04:35 PM)Hambone10 Wrote: [ -> ]With respect to Robert... of course we don't know whether he is an insider or not....
but his comments about BYU wanting to schedule more games in Houston because of a) recruiting and b) the number of THEIR fans here is the key reason I see opportunity for us. Whether we are independent or merely push for a more compact division within CUSA (fewer crossovers), I think this is the model we should look at. Find schools that want to play more in Houston (like it seems BYU) and schedule regular home and homes with them... develop rivalries as we can.. and schedule fewer Fla, NC, VA, Tn schools who have almost no traveling party. Not a knock on those schools... just we don't need more schools with our same issues.
Maybe Robert and I are just of similar mindsets but still wrong
(12-10-2018 07:41 PM)WRCisforgotten79 Wrote: [ -> ]Rice future opponents:
2019
Aug. 30 - @ Army
Sept. 7 - WAKE FOREST
Sept. 14 - Texas (at NRG)
Sept. 21 - BAYLOR
2020
Sept. 5 - @ Houston
Sept. 12 - ARMY
Sept. 19 - LSU (at NRG)
Sept. 26 - LAMAR
2021
Sept. 4 - @ Oklahoma State
Sept. 11 - HOUSTON
Sept. 18 - @ Texas
Sept. 25 - T.S.U.
2022
Sept. 3 - @ U.S.C.
Sept. 10 - LOUISIANA
Sept. 24 - @ Houston
2023
Sept. 2 - @ Texas
Sept. 9 - HOUSTON
Sept. 23 @ Boise State
2024
Sept. 7 - @ L.S.U.
2025
Sept. 6 - @ Louisiana
2027
Sept. 4 - BOISE STATE
2029
Sept. 8 - NORTHWESTERN
2031
Sept. 6 - @ Northwestern
What school is "Louisiana"? mahalo