Hypothetically if the Catholic 7 had not split from the Big East, and the Football only members had not backed out would the Big East remained a Power Comference in the College Football Playoff?
Here is the lineup on the day that they Catholic 7 announced thier departure from the Big East:
Full Members:
USF
UCONN
Cincinnati
UCF
Houston
Memphis
SMU
Temple
Non-FB Members:
Villanova
Georgetown
Providence
St. John’s
Seton Hall
DePaul
Marquette
FB Only:
Boise St.
San Diego St.
Navy
That would have given them 11 football teams, and 15 basketball teams. Let’s assume they would have wanted 12 FB teams, and 16 b-ball teams. So to make this work Villanova upgrades football to FBS, and they add a non-fb member in one of Creighton, Xavier, or Butler. I guess they add Creighton as they have the biggest enrollment and endowment of those three. So the football alignment would have been:
WEST
SMU
Houston
Memphis
Boise St. (FB Only)
San Diego St. (FB Only)
Navy (FB Only)
EAST
Temple
UCONN
Cincinnati
USF
UCF
Villanova
So would this lineup have been able to keep the Big East’s Power status in the CFP era? [/u]
I'd actually guess they keep Butler from those 3.
To your question, I really doubt it.
What would be really interesting would have been the basketball...
Had the legislation been in place that would have allowed a conference title game with only 10 teams I could envision a Big East that never split:
Providence, St John's, Seton Hall, Villanova, Georgetown, DePaul, Marquette, Butler
UConn, Temple, Cincy, Memphis, UCF, USF, Houston, SMU
FB only: Navy, ECU
16 for all sports, 10 for football. 8/8 split just like the 2005-2012 era.
Boise St and San Diego St could be penciled in as the 11th and 12th football schools but their withdraw would not have interfered with the conference title.
No, that line up would not have been considered a power conference. No Autonomy, no major bowl tie-in, and no guaranteed NY6 spot for their champion.
The real question is would the mostly original Big East still be a power conference.
North
-----
BC
UConn
Syracuse
Temple
Rutgers
South Florida
South
-----
Pitt
WVU
Cincy
Louisville
VT
Miami
8 of those 12 are in a power conferences today and Cincy is widely considered to be next on deck for a P5 invite. These teams did well and out performed the ACC back in the day. I think it would be P6 with the BE getting Autonomy, No major bowl tie in but a guaranteed spot in the NY6 for their champion.
(12-06-2018 10:07 PM)ChrisLords Wrote: [ -> ]No, that line up would not have been considered a power conference. No Autonomy, no major bowl tie-in, and no guaranteed NY6 spot for their champion.
The real question is would the mostly original Big East still be a power conference.
North
-----
BC
UConn
Syracuse
Temple
Rutgers
South Florida
South
-----
Pitt
WVU
Cincy
Louisville
VT
Miami
8 of those 12 are in a power conferences today and Cincy is widely considered to be next on deck for a P5 invite. These teams did well and out performed the ACC back in the day. I think it would be P6 with the BE getting Autonomy, No major bowl tie in but a guaranteed spot in the NY6 for their champion.
Would have looked really bad this year though.
No major bowl tie in for the big East -- G-ish status but could have placed a team in the CFP every so often. It's hard to see this group getting the Orange or Peach bowl.
(12-06-2018 10:07 PM)ChrisLords Wrote: [ -> ]No, that line up would not have been considered a power conference. No Autonomy, no major bowl tie-in, and no guaranteed NY6 spot for their champion.
The real question is would the mostly original Big East still be a power conference.
North
-----
BC
UConn
Syracuse
Temple
Rutgers
South Florida
South
-----
Pitt
WVU
Cincy
Louisville
VT
Miami
8 of those 12 are in a power conferences today and Cincy is widely considered to be next on deck for a P5 invite. These teams did well and out performed the ACC back in the day. I think it would be P6 with the BE getting Autonomy, No major bowl tie in but a guaranteed spot in the NY6 for their champion.
I don't know if that's the "real question", but I'd split those teams up differently for better competitive balance. An ACC-style zipper alignment would likely be necessary:
Big: Boston College, Miami-FL, Pittsburgh, Syracuse, Temple, West Virginia
East: Connecticut, South Florida, Cincinnati, Louisville, Rutgers, Virginia Tech
OR
Big: Boston College, Connecticut, Miami-FL, Rutgers, Virginia Tech, West Virginia
East: Syracuse, Cincinnati, South Florida, Temple, Louisville, Pittsburgh
Teams are listed in the same order as their protected crossover.
No. Which is why BSU went back to the MW.
(12-07-2018 08:11 AM)MWC Tex Wrote: [ -> ]No. Which is why BSU went back to the MW.
Thank you.
Thank God that monstrosity never materialized. Think things worked out for the better.
Frankly, I thought this thread would be a debate about the old Big East sans Miami Va Tech.
Had they still kept the North East exclusivity, there could have still been some consideration every now and then. Without WVU and BC and Pitt, never in a million years.
(12-07-2018 08:21 AM)RUScarlets Wrote: [ -> ] (12-07-2018 08:11 AM)MWC Tex Wrote: [ -> ]No. Which is why BSU went back to the MW.
Thank you.
Thank God that monstrosity never materialized. Think things worked out for the better.
Frankly, I thought this thread would be a debate about the old Big East sans Miami Va Tech.
Had they still kept the North East exclusivity, there could have still been some consideration every now and then. Without WVU and BC and Pitt, never in a million years.
Gotta put Syracuse in there as well, since there were a few years that they played in NY6's/won the BE during that era. While they were down at the end of the BE, when they were good, they were nationally reputable good.
Big East Football lost its long-term status as a power conference when it lost both Miami and Virginia Tech in in 2003. While Louisville, Cincinnati and USF all were incredibly strong additions for football (each had top-10 statuses at respective points), the reality is that rankings simply do not matter in the determinations and perceptions of power conferences. UCF's run over the past two years has proven and established that. Power leagues are anchored by blue-blood, power programs. While programs like Wake Forest, Rutgers, Kansas, Indiana, Oregon State, et. al. are not power programs, they are supported by their long-term associations with those types of programs. The Big East (circa 2012) was simply the final blow to the league as a true tweener conference, which lost that status when its automatic bowl tie-in was removed with the P5/G5 split.
The biggest problem in 2012 was that, due to the number of mass defections from Big East Football, there was a lot more added weight to the bottom of the league than the top. UCF, Navy, Memphis and Houston were all strong football additions to the league. However, other programs like Tulane, ECU, Tulsa and SMU, along with the steady downfall for UConn, have a strong impact towards the perception of the league. The power leagues can get away with the weak bottoms of their respective conferences. Established G5 leagues cannot. The other big problem facing the establishment of a true P6 conference is the lack of a clear power program that would help drive the reputation and perception of the said league. Even by taking the top of the AAC, along with the very top of the G5 (Boise State, SDSU, Fresno State, Army, et. al.), there still lacks a true anchor to drive the product. Long-term, I could envision a program like UCF becoming that (not unlike Miami's rise in the early 80's). However, by that point, UCF will have been taken by the ACC, SEC or Big 12, and the whole process gets blown up (once again).
Finally, it goes without saying, that the C7 would have wanted no part of that hypothetical league. The league's footprint was once again extended away from the NE, in addition to the acquisition of full members who simply did not put the resources into men's basketball, nor did they have the strong history or postseason success that the basketball league desired.
Even after losing Miami, VT, BC the BE could have probably stayed a football power conference... once West Va, Pittsburgh, Syracuse, Louisville, Rutgers all bailed, it was over. The conference was amongst the very best throughout the 90s and 2000s, but once the peeling off happened, there was very little left. Power conference is about football money. They lost all leverage with or without the divorce.
I voted yes believing that the basketball programs would keep the BE a P5 conference with low respect for the football programs the way the OBE was after Miami and Virginia Tech left.
C7 - BB6 - G'Town, St. John's, Seton Hall, Providence, Marquette, DePaul.
C7 - Villanova offered and accepting a FB invitation.
FB - All Sports - Temple, Cinn, UCF, USF, Houston, SMU, Memphis, Tulane, UConn, ECU.
FB - Only - Navy.
Twelve for FB and 18 total schools with a solid core of BB schools to drive TV revenue the way if did in the OBE and Navy's National Brand helping the FB TV revenue side somewhat. The BE would still be a National BB Power with decent FB and some great Baseball programs to keep the conference relevant all year round. Its water over the dam at this point but it is the way I would have liked the last realignment cycle to play out for the BE.
Yeah, no. The hypothetical neglects Tulane, who got in as a full member ahead of others in the list.
This was heading south with Tulane, Temple, and Tulsa. Locking down Air Force and getting BYU to buy in was probably the only path retain their power seat.
It would have been interesting had the league been proactive and really pushed to get to 12 football members, while respecting and preserving the strength of the basketball side, before 2010. Memphis would have easily been approved as a full-member, especially coming their NCAA Championship game appearance with Calipari and Rose in 2008. Temple could have been re-added as a football-only, which would have balanced out Villanova's membership in Philadelphia, especially since they were coming off a 9-4 season in 2009. Navy would not have come along unless there was a Texas footprint, so they are out. However, Army could have been added in their place, which would have given the Big East access to the Army/Navy game (not unlike the AAC's access to it today). Finally, ECU can get added as a football-only, as they were back-to-back C-USA Champions, and would have given the football schools access to North Carolina. To cap it off, Big East Football could have held its championship game at Lincoln Financial Field in Philadelphia, or at MetLife Stadium in New York City. I am fairly confident that the league would have maintained its status as a power league in that scenario, while also maintaining its Northeast footprint for its schools.
Big East Football - North
Army
UConn
Pittsburgh
Rutgers
Syracuse
West Virginia
Big East Football - South
Cincinnati
ECU
Louisville
Memphis
Temple
USF
Big East Basketball
Cincinnati
UConn
DePaul
Georgetown
Louisville
Marquette
Memphis
Notre Dame
Pittsburgh
Providence
Rutgers
Seton Hall
St. John's
Syracuse
Villanova
West Virginia
USF
(12-07-2018 09:27 AM)GoldenWarrior11 Wrote: [ -> ]Big East Football lost its long-term status as a power conference when it lost both Miami and Virginia Tech in in 2003. While Louisville, Cincinnati and USF all were incredibly strong additions for football (each had top-10 statuses at respective points), the reality is that rankings simply do not matter in the determinations and perceptions of power conferences. UCF's run over the past two years has proven and established that. Power leagues are anchored by blue-blood, power programs.
Yes, not only does winning not boost a conference that lacks blue bloods to power status, the causality is actually more reversed: Because the post-2004 Big East lacked football big names, the nation perceived it as the 'runt' of the AQ conferences *on the field*, and not deserving of AQ status, even though the on the field results actually spoke the opposite. In terms of results, the Big East was a full-fledged Power during the 2005 - 2012 era.
(12-08-2018 10:18 AM)GoldenWarrior11 Wrote: [ -> ]It would have been interesting had the league been proactive and really pushed to get to 12 football members, while respecting and preserving the strength of the basketball side, before 2010. Memphis would have easily been approved as a full-member, especially coming their NCAA Championship game appearance with Calipari and Rose in 2008. Temple could have been re-added as a football-only, which would have balanced out Villanova's membership in Philadelphia, especially since they were coming off a 9-4 season in 2009. Navy would not have come along unless there was a Texas footprint, so they are out. However, Army could have been added in their place, which would have given the Big East access to the Army/Navy game (not unlike the AAC's access to it today). Finally, ECU can get added as a football-only, as they were back-to-back C-USA Champions, and would have given the football schools access to North Carolina. To cap it off, Big East Football could have held its championship game at Lincoln Financial Field in Philadelphia, or at MetLife Stadium in New York City. I am fairly confident that the league would have maintained its status as a power league in that scenario, while also maintaining its Northeast footprint for its schools.
Big East Football - North
Army
UConn
Pittsburgh
Rutgers
Syracuse
West Virginia
Big East Football - South
Cincinnati
ECU
Louisville
Memphis
Temple
USF
Big East Basketball
Cincinnati
UConn
DePaul
Georgetown
Louisville
Marquette
Memphis
Notre Dame
Pittsburgh
Rutgers
Seton Hall
St. John's
Syracuse
Villanova
West Virginia
USF
No Providence?
It would be nice to see an on Big East division in the ACC.
North: Cuse Pitt BC VTech Miami UL (WVU) (UConn/UC)
While the ACC doesn’t need those schools, it solidifies the footprint a bit more from B1G or Big 12 encroachment. Plus the ACC needs some football beef to counter Clemson FSU and WVU adds that to a small extent.
(12-07-2018 08:21 AM)RUScarlets Wrote: [ -> ]Think things worked out for the better.
For everyone except UC, USF, and UConn.
(12-08-2018 10:44 AM)Nerdlinger Wrote: [ -> ] (12-08-2018 10:18 AM)GoldenWarrior11 Wrote: [ -> ]It would have been interesting had the league been proactive and really pushed to get to 12 football members, while respecting and preserving the strength of the basketball side, before 2010. Memphis would have easily been approved as a full-member, especially coming their NCAA Championship game appearance with Calipari and Rose in 2008. Temple could have been re-added as a football-only, which would have balanced out Villanova's membership in Philadelphia, especially since they were coming off a 9-4 season in 2009. Navy would not have come along unless there was a Texas footprint, so they are out. However, Army could have been added in their place, which would have given the Big East access to the Army/Navy game (not unlike the AAC's access to it today). Finally, ECU can get added as a football-only, as they were back-to-back C-USA Champions, and would have given the football schools access to North Carolina. To cap it off, Big East Football could have held its championship game at Lincoln Financial Field in Philadelphia, or at MetLife Stadium in New York City. I am fairly confident that the league would have maintained its status as a power league in that scenario, while also maintaining its Northeast footprint for its schools.
Big East Football - North
Army
UConn
Pittsburgh
Rutgers
Syracuse
West Virginia
Big East Football - South
Cincinnati
ECU
Louisville
Memphis
Temple
USF
Big East Basketball
Cincinnati
UConn
DePaul
Georgetown
Louisville
Marquette
Memphis
Notre Dame
Pittsburgh
Rutgers
Seton Hall
St. John's
Syracuse
Villanova
West Virginia
USF
No Providence?
He's retroactively throwing them out after their loss last night to UMass in basketball :)