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Full Version: I'll say it. It's time for the CAA to break up.
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We had 8 wins against D-I competition this year...and UNCW was still # 1 in the league in attendance.

We have one of the lowest budgets in the league, yet are forced to spend insane dollars for our Men's and Women's teams to travel long distances to relatively empty gyms, where we have no recruiting footprint and never will. And of course, the travel puts a heavy strain on our non-revenue sports as well.

Some felt that after Drexel scored the greatest comeback win in college basketball history, that momentum would continue into the game with us 2 days later, on a Saturday night. Not so. Those who predicted that failed to recognize that Delaware is a rivalry game. UNCW is not. Only about 900 fans attended, and it sure didn't look like that many were there on video.

I don't think UNCW will leave on its own accord unless we were to get an extremely unlikely invite from the Atlantic-10. So, it will take some moving and shaking from the northern schools to make that happen.

If and when that does occur, where should we go? There was a time when I would have hated and instantly rejected this statement, but I'm coming around to the Big South. Yes, it's overall a pretty awful basketball conference. But if we could somehow convince Charleston and Elon to come with, it could work. 2 games a year with each of them along with UNC Asheville and Winthrop wouldn't be the worst thing. And when you look at the attendance figures, you'd notice that Liberty, Winthrop, and UNC Asheville all draw better than Hofstra, Towson, Northeastern, and Drexel.

The Big South also doesn't have the problem the CAA has where they struggle to determine if football or basketball comes first. Only 4 member schools in the Big South have football, and none of them are very good at the FCS level. Thus, its a basketball-first league.

If we're going to in a 1-bid league anyways, we might as well join one that makes some geographical sense, and one we can win with some consistency, no?
Very interesting thread... The A10 would be ideal, but unlikely. The SoCon has been really competitive this year. It could be just a good year, but I think I would prefer a move here. Coach Forbes from ETSU is a really good coach, and just signed an extension so he might be there to stay. Wes Miller has grown over the past few years and has deep ties to Greensboro, same with Mike Young and Greenville, SC, and Mercer has been a good program the last decade. I think the only hold up here would be adding two non-football programs (us and CofC), as of now UNCG is the only non-football program in the conference.
(02-26-2018 11:32 AM)Seahawk Nation 08 Wrote: [ -> ]We had 8 wins against D-I competition this year...and UNCW was still # 1 in the league in attendance.

We have one of the lowest budgets in the league, yet are forced to spend insane dollars for our Men's and Women's teams to travel long distances to relatively empty gyms, where we have no recruiting footprint and never will. And of course, the travel puts a heavy strain on our non-revenue sports as well.
I understand how you feel, and Hofstra has long travel also, but if the CAA breaks up, where would every team go? The only recent conference to stop existing was the Great West, which had teams that were new to Division I. It was created and destroyed within a few years, and it didn't have an automatic bid. Before that, the Southwest Conference stopped, with half its teams making the Big 8 become the Big 12. There used to be an American West Conference with only 4 teams. Both of those might have stopped existing in the 1990s. One possibility would be if the Atlantic 10 split, with some of the 14 teams and some new teams making another conference. I'm not saying that will happen.
I think it would have to be something like this....

CofC, UNCW, Elon, W&M, JMU- Split between SoCon and Big South

Towson- Patriot League

Delaware, Drexel, Hofstra, Northeastern- Split between NEC, Metro Atlantic, America East.
(02-26-2018 12:05 PM)Gary Miller Wrote: [ -> ]Very interesting thread... The A10 would be ideal, but unlikely. The SoCon has been really competitive this year. It could be just a good year, but I think I would prefer a move here. Coach Forbes from ETSU is a really good coach, and just signed an extension so he might be there to stay. Wes Miller has grown over the past few years and has deep ties to Greensboro, same with Mike Young and Greenville, SC, and Mercer has been a good program the last decade. I think the only hold up here would be adding two non-football programs (us and CofC), as of now UNCG is the only non-football program in the conference.

Yeah, that's the problem. I can't possibly see the SoCon wanting us. And certainly not Charleston, after they left them for the CAA.

We need to go to a Basketball-first league, and those are few and far between.
Towson would be a better fit in the 1st category. They have football and they have too many scholarships for the Patriot League.

I don't know why anyone is complaining. The CAA attendance has been this way for multiple years. Like JMU screaming to be in another conference based on their football success, you have to have a place to go. Until then, Northeastern and Hofstra provide consistently high level basketball programs. Those schools cannot help the fact that their consistent winning programs are not supported by the area fans. The top 4 in attendance in the long past were UNCW(by a wide margin), W&M, JMU, and COC. JMU is absolutely dreadful the last few years in basketball. However, they are as good as anybody in the country in FCS(possibly better than anyone). They have much greater interest in football than basketball. Theoretically, they could be interested again if they starting winning consistently. Dreaming of an ACC, AAC, Atlantic 10 or other invite, is just dreaming. I guess teams could beg to go to Conference USA where ODU is, but that is not an upward move at all. ODU was better off and more successful(at a lower cost) when they played in the CAA. But, they made the move purely for football.

If you look at the success instead of the attendance, UNCW, COC, Hofstra, Northeastern, W&M, and Towson have all have had consistent success since VCU, ODU and GMU left. Delaware and JMU each also won one championship during this time. Thus, only Elon and Drexel can be claimed to not be competitive. Is it only about the attendance or is the competition relevant? Anyone who has gone to Baltimore or Charleston in the last 5 years can tell you the league is pretty good for basketball. Better exposure would help some. I think the exposure was pretty good when the league had the comcast/NBCSN package. While (except for Delaware) the streaming coverage is decent, no one is stumbling onto the CAA right now. We get little to no coverage from either CBS or ESPN, even though we paid for a Cbs sports network game of the week.

But for the Tribe, we have a long standing rivalry with JMU, and a good basketball one with UNCW and Hofstra. I guess if a move were to occur, the Southern is a likely destination. But, the Southern is not a great league, not even close to as good as the CAA currently is. As for the Big South, it is absolutely terrible(usually in the bottom 5 leagues). They are a good partner for 1-2 OOC games each year though for reasonable travel cost(as is the Southern). As far as the hope for at large bids, all mid majors are getting squeezed out. Even the selection committee continues to find ways to stick it to the good mid majors. The CAA can be blamed for this. 2 Final Four trips were not what the NCAA wanted. They want the occasional upset and then go home. Now, the midmajor teams are seeded and placed against each other to try and reduce the possibility of one getting through.
(02-26-2018 12:56 PM)EvanJ Wrote: [ -> ]I understand how you feel, and Hofstra has long travel also, but if the CAA breaks up, where would every team go?

The first dominos to fall would probably be some of the northern schools, who would be "package deals" together. They'd leave for a league whose top teams got poached by a bigger league.

I can't see the America East being an option, after the mass exodus by current CAA schools from that league previously. But certainly the MAAC would be a strong option. If just one MAAC school leaves, they're down to 10. And even if they don't, do you think they'd turn down adding, say, Northeastern or Hofstra, if they came calling?

Drexel wouldn't be a bad fit in the NEC. Could the Patriot League be an option too?

I know there was talk of JMU trying to get into the MAC, but I don't see that happening, ever. In the unlikely event that ever happened, Delaware would try to go with them.
(02-26-2018 01:49 PM)TribePride91 Wrote: [ -> ]Towson would be a better fit in the 1st category. They have football and they have too many scholarships for the Patriot League.

I don't know why anyone is complaining. The CAA attendance has been this way for multiple years. Like JMU screaming to be in another conference based on their football success, you have to have a place to go. Until then, Northeastern and Hofstra provide consistently high level basketball programs. Those schools cannot help the fact that their consistent winning programs are not supported by the area fans. The top 4 in attendance in the long past were UNCW(by a wide margin), W&M, JMU, and COC. JMU is absolutely dreadful the last few years in basketball. However, they are as good as anybody in the country in FCS(possibly better than anyone). They have much greater interest in football than basketball. Theoretically, they could be interested again if they starting winning consistently. Dreaming of an ACC, AAC, Atlantic 10 or other invite, is just dreaming. I guess teams could beg to go to Conference USA where ODU is, but that is not an upward move at all. ODU was better off and more successful(at a lower cost) when they played in the CAA. But, they made the move purely for football.

If you look at the success instead of the attendance, UNCW, COC, Hofstra, Northeastern, W&M, and Towson have all have had consistent success since VCU, ODU and GMU left. Delaware and JMU each also won one championship during this time. Thus, only Elon and Drexel can be claimed to not be competitive. Is it only about the attendance or is the competition relevant? Anyone who has gone to Baltimore or Charleston in the last 5 years can tell you the league is pretty good for basketball. Better exposure would help some. I think the exposure was pretty good when the league had the comcast/NBCSN package. While (except for Delaware) the streaming coverage is decent, no one is stumbling onto the CAA right now. We get little to no coverage from either CBS or ESPN, even though we paid for a Cbs sports network game of the week.

But for the Tribe, we have a long standing rivalry with JMU, and a good basketball one with UNCW and Hofstra. I guess if a move were to occur, the Southern is a likely destination. But, the Southern is not a great league, not even close to as good as the CAA currently is. As for the Big South, it is absolutely terrible(usually in the bottom 5 leagues). They are a good partner for 1-2 OOC games each year though for reasonable travel cost(as is the Southern). As far as the hope for at large bids, all mid majors are getting squeezed out. Even the selection committee continues to find ways to stick it to the good mid majors. The CAA can be blamed for this. 2 Final Four trips were not what the NCAA wanted. They want the occasional upset and then go home. Now, the midmajor teams are seeded and placed against each other to try and reduce the possibility of one getting through.

The Big South would take us in a heartbeat. All we have to do is place the call. It's a clear step down, of course, but it's someplace.

Like I said, I don't think UNCW would be the first to leave by any stretch. We're probably among the last that would leave. That's why I titled the thread the way I did, and not "It's time for US to leave the CAA."

The travel is the biggest factor. Ahead of the TV issues, level of competition, attendance, or anything else. It puts a massive strain on our already tiny budget. And we get NOTHING out of it. No recruiting foothold, no chances at marquee wins, and no added relevance. The CAA gives us 18 games to play, which is a lot, and a nice rivalry with Charleston. That's it.

And I doubt we're the only ones complaining about that. Northern schools, at least during baseball and soccer season, do enjoy coming south from time to time. They treat it like a vacation. But for basketball purposes, we don't sell ANY visitor tickets to multiple schools in this league. No one wants to come to Wilmington in the winter. And I doubt they're making the trek to Charleston, much less Elon, either.
The Big South would be a no go for Charleston. Charleston Southern is in the Big South, and basically play in a high school gym. UNCW played CSU in their gym in 13-14, and had an “overflow” crowd of 954. 881 is the seating capacity. Our last year in the SoCon, 12-13, we played CSU in the Buc Dome, and tickets were sold out in minutes. Maybe 20 Charleston fans could buy tickets.

CSU just got lights on their baseball stadium maybe 2 or 3 seasons ago, and still has no lights on their softball field. They can’t even broadcast any television games from the “Buc Dome” because of how bad the sightlines are. They literally have to put cameras at the top of the bleachers.

The SoCon also would be a step down for most Charleston fans now. In the first couple of years of us being in the CAA there was a want to have the Citadel and other in-state rivalries back, but most of our fans have realized how much better of a fit the CAA is.

We had a rivalry with Wofford and Davidson in the SoCon, and maybe the Citadel, but most of the other teams were not draws. There was one year we played Samford and one fan showed up from their group.

The Citadel (once our bitter rival) now averages less than 800 fans a game for basketball. They had one crowd of 3,213 with the entire Corps of Cadets on hand, but take that out their average attendance for the year was 581. Their attendance last season was over 1,600 a game. So in one season they fell over 50%.

Also the school has made networking/accepted student events for basically every road game in the CAA. Even in Wilmington, they had about 75 fans or so. In Boston, there was over 100 fans. They made as much noise as the NU fans did that night.
I would love to see the 5 schools above DC to go back to the American East.

The 5 remaining could add UNCA, Winthrop, UNCG to get to 8. All solid basketball additions. We would have to add 2 football schools, assuming Richmond would want to be an affiliate member with JMU, W&M, and Elon. Furman and Wofford would be ideal and might jump to this version of the CAA if they don't have to travel to the north. If not we could add Campbell and Hampton

W&M
JMU
Elon
UNCW
CoC
UNCA
UNCG
Winthrop
Hampton & Campbell/Furman & Wofford
*Richmond FBall Only member
Did you know UNCW and NCSU were forced to raise their out of state tuition since they had the highest out of state demand? Your statement that we get nothing due to affiliation is incorrect. Compared other non ACC schools in north carolina, we are far superior in recognition outside the state. The CAA affiliation is certainly a factor.
(02-26-2018 03:23 PM)82hawk Wrote: [ -> ]Did you know UNCW and NCSU were forced to raise their out of state tuition since they had the highest out of state demand? Your statement that we get nothing due to affiliation is incorrect. Compared other non ACC schools in north carolina, we are far superior in recognition outside the state. The CAA affiliation is certainly a factor.

Or is it the warm weather and beach?

Compared to other ACC schools in NC we are far superior in recognition?

ACC schools in NC:

UNC - Duke - NC State - Wake Forest

All four of those schools are incredibly nationally recognized, IMO far beyond UNCW. Usually, when I tell people where I graduated from they say, "So it's in North Carolina right?". I'm not sure I agree with your point here.

**UPDATE** Disregard most of this post please. I just re-read your post and saw "non" in front of ACC schools that I missed before. My apologies.
(02-26-2018 03:20 PM)solohawks Wrote: [ -> ]I would love to see the 5 schools above DC to go back to the American East.

The 5 remaining could add UNCA, Winthrop, UNCG to get to 8. All solid basketball additions. We would have to add 2 football schools, assuming Richmond would want to be an affiliate member with JMU, W&M, and Elon. Furman and Wofford would be ideal and might jump to this version of the CAA if they don't have to travel to the north. If not we could add Campbell and Hampton

W&M
JMU
Elon
UNCW
CoC
UNCA
UNCG
Winthrop
Hampton & Campbell/Furman & Wofford
*Richmond FBall Only member

There's no way JMU wants any part of that conference, IMO. They're clamoring to make a move to FBS.
(02-26-2018 03:23 PM)82hawk Wrote: [ -> ]Did you know UNCW and NCSU were forced to raise their out of state tuition since they had the highest out of state demand? Your statement that we get nothing due to affiliation is incorrect. Compared other non ACC schools in north carolina, we are far superior in recognition outside the state. The CAA affiliation is certainly a factor.

Our affiliation with the CAA has next to nothing to do with the out of state student rate. That's due to the fact that out of state tuition at UNCW is low enough to make northerners leave their states, where the cost of living is high, to come to school here. We're a beach school, which of course also attracts northeast kids who go to the beach but can't go as often because of the weather.

And we also get a ton of female out of state students. The rate of females compared to males is going up, not down. Think they care a lick about sports, by and large?

We've been getting kids from NY/NJ long before the northern schools joined the CAA. And out of state tuition has been going up for years. Maybe some kids know about UNCW because Hofstra plays us (that game usually gets decent media attention up there) but that's about it.
Even if you COULD somehow argue the CAA helps our out of state application rate....who cares? How does that help us in sports? These kids aren't telling their High School friends who play ball to give us a look.

And because the out of state tuition exemption is gone for sports, we can't even recruit out of state kids like we used to anyways. Ever take a look at the baseball roster? I only count 3 guys on our roster that are NOT North Carolina kids. And they're not coming from NY/NJ. 1 is from Virginia. The other 2 are Spartanburg Methodist transfers from South Carolina.

We used to get NY kids like Jason Appel and Terence Connelly. We can't anymore.
Our current basketball roster doesn't have any kids from the other CAA states either. Next year we get Toews from Massachusetts, so there's 1....
I was just addressing your specific point about out of state students. It could be that we are at a beach, but it doesn't hurt that people who go to schools up the eastern coast know of UNCW. And our out of state tuition is higher than every other UNC system school except NCSU, I don't disagree related to sports. We don't have the finances to support a hit for out of state tuition for athletes.

But, I just do not see us leaving the CAA. I think we would likely stay, even if the northern schools left, and try to lure other teams to the CAA. I could see UNCG, Campbell, High Point as candidates to come on board.
(02-26-2018 03:49 PM)82hawk Wrote: [ -> ]I was just addressing your specific point about out of state students. It could be that we are at a beach, but it doesn't hurt that people who go to schools up the eastern coast know of UNCW. And our out of state tuition is higher than every other UNC system school except NCSU I don't disagree related to sports. We don't have the finances to support a hit for out of state tuition for athletes.

But, I just do not see us leaving the CAA. I think we would likely stay, even if the northern schools left, and try to lure other teams to the CAA. I could see UNCG, Campbell, High Point as candidates to come on board.

That's because there's a cap on the % of out of state students who can come here, that is stricter than most, or all, other UNC System schools. We lose quality students to places like Northeastern and W&M because of it.

That came from a time when the UNC System's attitude was that the state of North Carolina has no obligation to teach out of state students, back from the Erskine Bowles days. They believed those kids would go back home after school, which has been proven wrong of late: Lots of northern kids who come here end up sticking around NC, though they tend to go to Charlotte or Raleigh instead of staying around Wilmington.

Combine that with the UNC system having no desire to let us become a research powerhouse, and that's how the cap was set, thus driving up the costs.
I'd say the $$$ spent on travel FARRRRRRRRR Exceeds that brought in form out of state students attending because they were exposed to UNCW through conference affiliation
(02-26-2018 03:37 PM)CG_Hawk06 Wrote: [ -> ]
(02-26-2018 03:20 PM)solohawks Wrote: [ -> ]I would love to see the 5 schools above DC to go back to the American East.

The 5 remaining could add UNCA, Winthrop, UNCG to get to 8. All solid basketball additions. We would have to add 2 football schools, assuming Richmond would want to be an affiliate member with JMU, W&M, and Elon. Furman and Wofford would be ideal and might jump to this version of the CAA if they don't have to travel to the north. If not we could add Campbell and Hampton

W&M
JMU
Elon
UNCW
CoC
UNCA
UNCG
Winthrop
Hampton & Campbell/Furman & Wofford
*Richmond FBall Only member

There's no way JMU wants any part of that conference, IMO. They're clamoring to make a move to FBS.

If we could get Furman and Wofford I think JMU administration would be very pleased. The CAA has chased those 2 for a long time.
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