(02-08-2018 11:02 AM)BearcatMan Wrote: [ -> ] (02-08-2018 10:38 AM)levydl Wrote: [ -> ] (02-08-2018 08:48 AM)BearcatMan Wrote: [ -> ] (02-08-2018 12:39 AM)geef Wrote: [ -> ] (02-07-2018 10:53 PM)bearcatmark Wrote: [ -> ]I'd love to see Mick get some national coach of the year live but i feel like it's going to Holtman... which is completely reasonable.
Mick has been terrific. Holtmann has been a miracle worker. Really impressive job by him.
Yep...Holtmann turned a team who went 17-15 into one that's potentially top 10 this season. Oh by the way, that team lost their best overall player (JaQuon Lyle), a senior wing who led them in scoring (Marc Loving), and only added one player who is making significant contribution (Kaleb Wesson, who looks like he could very easily turn into a POY guy in a few years too). To add to that, he turned Keita Bates Diop from a fringe starter on a .500 team into a borderline lottery pick and POY candidate. If anyone else gets serious looks as COY, that person should have their voting privileges revoked.
Keita Bates Diop was like a top 30 recruit. Jae'Sean Tate and Wesson were both studs too. Holtmann is a very good coach, but it's not like he's working with a bunch of scrubs.
Never said he was. I've been on here multiple times singing the praises of Kaleb Wesson...but I know that Bates Diop and Tate "underperformed" for the past two to three years in comparison to their potential. The fact that he has turned around two "seniors" the way that he has is a testament to his coaching ability. To me, taking a team that was that bad and making them this good is much better than taking a team that was already incredibly good and making them slightly better (Xavier and Virginia).
Everyone has their own criteria. I think longevity and what you did to build the program is something that we should consider in coach of the year awards as well. Bennett brought in and developed all that talent. Mick did the same and really this team is the culmination of bring a number of players along for multiple seasons. To me that is always underappreciated when we look at coach of the year awards. Holtmann is absolutely deserving, but I don't know that he is more so than some of these other guys.
(02-08-2018 11:07 AM)bearcatmark Wrote: [ -> ]Everyone has their own criteria. I think longevity and what you did to build the program is something that we should consider in coach of the year awards as well. Bennett brought in and developed all that talent. Mick did the same and really this team is the culmination of bring a number of players along for multiple seasons. To me that is always underappreciated when we look at coach of the year awards. Holtmann is absolutely deserving, but I don't know that he is more so than some of these other guys.
Agreed. Poker is an easy game when you're dealt a great hand.
(02-08-2018 11:07 AM)bearcatmark Wrote: [ -> ] (02-08-2018 11:02 AM)BearcatMan Wrote: [ -> ] (02-08-2018 10:38 AM)levydl Wrote: [ -> ] (02-08-2018 08:48 AM)BearcatMan Wrote: [ -> ] (02-08-2018 12:39 AM)geef Wrote: [ -> ]Mick has been terrific. Holtmann has been a miracle worker. Really impressive job by him.
Yep...Holtmann turned a team who went 17-15 into one that's potentially top 10 this season. Oh by the way, that team lost their best overall player (JaQuon Lyle), a senior wing who led them in scoring (Marc Loving), and only added one player who is making significant contribution (Kaleb Wesson, who looks like he could very easily turn into a POY guy in a few years too). To add to that, he turned Keita Bates Diop from a fringe starter on a .500 team into a borderline lottery pick and POY candidate. If anyone else gets serious looks as COY, that person should have their voting privileges revoked.
Keita Bates Diop was like a top 30 recruit. Jae'Sean Tate and Wesson were both studs too. Holtmann is a very good coach, but it's not like he's working with a bunch of scrubs.
Never said he was. I've been on here multiple times singing the praises of Kaleb Wesson...but I know that Bates Diop and Tate "underperformed" for the past two to three years in comparison to their potential. The fact that he has turned around two "seniors" the way that he has is a testament to his coaching ability. To me, taking a team that was that bad and making them this good is much better than taking a team that was already incredibly good and making them slightly better (Xavier and Virginia).
Everyone has their own criteria. I think longevity and what you did to build the program is something that we should consider in coach of the year awards as well. Bennett brought in and developed all that talent. Mick did the same and really this team is the culmination of bring a number of players along for multiple seasons. To me that is always underappreciated when we look at coach of the year awards. Holtmann is absolutely deserving, but I don't know that he is more so than some of these other guys.
If it's for one year, I don't think it should be based on 4 years/development cycle...you know? But I get where you're coming from.
(02-08-2018 11:16 AM)TubaCat Wrote: [ -> ] (02-08-2018 11:07 AM)bearcatmark Wrote: [ -> ]Everyone has their own criteria. I think longevity and what you did to build the program is something that we should consider in coach of the year awards as well. Bennett brought in and developed all that talent. Mick did the same and really this team is the culmination of bring a number of players along for multiple seasons. To me that is always underappreciated when we look at coach of the year awards. Holtmann is absolutely deserving, but I don't know that he is more so than some of these other guys.
Agreed. Poker is an easy game when you're dealt a great hand.
And yet, I have seen players manage to screw, squander, and misplay killer hands. And the metaphor works in Coaching as well.
(02-08-2018 11:22 AM)BearcatMan Wrote: [ -> ] (02-08-2018 11:07 AM)bearcatmark Wrote: [ -> ] (02-08-2018 11:02 AM)BearcatMan Wrote: [ -> ] (02-08-2018 10:38 AM)levydl Wrote: [ -> ] (02-08-2018 08:48 AM)BearcatMan Wrote: [ -> ]Yep...Holtmann turned a team who went 17-15 into one that's potentially top 10 this season. Oh by the way, that team lost their best overall player (JaQuon Lyle), a senior wing who led them in scoring (Marc Loving), and only added one player who is making significant contribution (Kaleb Wesson, who looks like he could very easily turn into a POY guy in a few years too). To add to that, he turned Keita Bates Diop from a fringe starter on a .500 team into a borderline lottery pick and POY candidate. If anyone else gets serious looks as COY, that person should have their voting privileges revoked.
Keita Bates Diop was like a top 30 recruit. Jae'Sean Tate and Wesson were both studs too. Holtmann is a very good coach, but it's not like he's working with a bunch of scrubs.
Never said he was. I've been on here multiple times singing the praises of Kaleb Wesson...but I know that Bates Diop and Tate "underperformed" for the past two to three years in comparison to their potential. The fact that he has turned around two "seniors" the way that he has is a testament to his coaching ability. To me, taking a team that was that bad and making them this good is much better than taking a team that was already incredibly good and making them slightly better (Xavier and Virginia).
Everyone has their own criteria. I think longevity and what you did to build the program is something that we should consider in coach of the year awards as well. Bennett brought in and developed all that talent. Mick did the same and really this team is the culmination of bring a number of players along for multiple seasons. To me that is always underappreciated when we look at coach of the year awards. Holtmann is absolutely deserving, but I don't know that he is more so than some of these other guys.
If it's for one year, I don't think it should be based on 4 years/development cycle...you know? But I get where you're coming from.
I get what you're saying... but I think too much of coaching has to do with everything else to ignore it. You're looking at the results from one year, but it absolutely makes sense to consider the development of the various people the coach brought in and how they built to get the roster to that year.
The Coach of the Year award is the most overrated award in sports. They need to rename it the "team that did better than expected" award. Its really hard to define what the criteria is and how to win that award. It doesn't take in to account recruiting and player development which are pretty important parts of coaching.
(02-08-2018 11:25 AM)jarr Wrote: [ -> ]The Coach of the Year award is the most overrated award in sports. They need to rename it the "team that did better than expected" award. Its really hard to define what the criteria is and how to win that award. It doesn't take in to account recruiting and player development which are pretty important parts of coaching.
This is kind of my take as well. It's almost entirely about how you did relative to your expectations going into the season. I don't think that can be ignored but I think more than that should be considered.
(02-08-2018 11:02 AM)BearcatMan Wrote: [ -> ] (02-08-2018 10:38 AM)levydl Wrote: [ -> ] (02-08-2018 08:48 AM)BearcatMan Wrote: [ -> ] (02-08-2018 12:39 AM)geef Wrote: [ -> ] (02-07-2018 10:53 PM)bearcatmark Wrote: [ -> ]I'd love to see Mick get some national coach of the year live but i feel like it's going to Holtman... which is completely reasonable.
Mick has been terrific. Holtmann has been a miracle worker. Really impressive job by him.
Yep...Holtmann turned a team who went 17-15 into one that's potentially top 10 this season. Oh by the way, that team lost their best overall player (JaQuon Lyle), a senior wing who led them in scoring (Marc Loving), and only added one player who is making significant contribution (Kaleb Wesson, who looks like he could very easily turn into a POY guy in a few years too). To add to that, he turned Keita Bates Diop from a fringe starter on a .500 team into a borderline lottery pick and POY candidate. If anyone else gets serious looks as COY, that person should have their voting privileges revoked.
Keita Bates Diop was like a top 30 recruit. Jae'Sean Tate and Wesson were both studs too. Holtmann is a very good coach, but it's not like he's working with a bunch of scrubs.
Never said he was. I've been on here multiple times singing the praises of Kaleb Wesson...but I know that Bates Diop and Tate "underperformed" for the past two to three years in comparison to their potential. The fact that he has turned around two "seniors" the way that he has is a testament to his coaching ability. To me, taking a team that was that bad and making them this good is much better than taking a team that was already incredibly good and making them slightly better (Xavier and Virginia).
No argument there, but I wouldn't call Holtmann a miracle worker for getting talented players to play up to their abilities. I think that OSU's underperforming at the end of Matta's tenure has made people think that Holtmann has forged a great team out of garbage.
Do you think OSU would be favored on a neutral court over UC? Do you think UC has better talent than OSU?
(02-08-2018 11:32 AM)levydl Wrote: [ -> ] (02-08-2018 11:02 AM)BearcatMan Wrote: [ -> ] (02-08-2018 10:38 AM)levydl Wrote: [ -> ] (02-08-2018 08:48 AM)BearcatMan Wrote: [ -> ] (02-08-2018 12:39 AM)geef Wrote: [ -> ]Mick has been terrific. Holtmann has been a miracle worker. Really impressive job by him.
Yep...Holtmann turned a team who went 17-15 into one that's potentially top 10 this season. Oh by the way, that team lost their best overall player (JaQuon Lyle), a senior wing who led them in scoring (Marc Loving), and only added one player who is making significant contribution (Kaleb Wesson, who looks like he could very easily turn into a POY guy in a few years too). To add to that, he turned Keita Bates Diop from a fringe starter on a .500 team into a borderline lottery pick and POY candidate. If anyone else gets serious looks as COY, that person should have their voting privileges revoked.
Keita Bates Diop was like a top 30 recruit. Jae'Sean Tate and Wesson were both studs too. Holtmann is a very good coach, but it's not like he's working with a bunch of scrubs.
Never said he was. I've been on here multiple times singing the praises of Kaleb Wesson...but I know that Bates Diop and Tate "underperformed" for the past two to three years in comparison to their potential. The fact that he has turned around two "seniors" the way that he has is a testament to his coaching ability. To me, taking a team that was that bad and making them this good is much better than taking a team that was already incredibly good and making them slightly better (Xavier and Virginia).
No argument there, but I wouldn't call Holtmann a miracle worker for getting talented players to play up to their abilities. I think that OSU's underperforming at the end of Matta's tenure has made people think that Holtmann has forged a great team out of garbage.
Do you think OSU would be favored on a neutral court over UC? Do you think UC has better talent than OSU?
Honestly, this year I think we would be -4.5, and I think we do this year. Gary could handle Tate, KBD and Evans are a wash, Cumberland and Williams are a wash, I would take Washington over Wesson at the moment, and they've probably got us beat at the point. Our depth is better than theirs. They haven't played a defense like ours, but we've played plenty of offenses like theirs.
(02-08-2018 11:32 AM)levydl Wrote: [ -> ] (02-08-2018 11:02 AM)BearcatMan Wrote: [ -> ] (02-08-2018 10:38 AM)levydl Wrote: [ -> ] (02-08-2018 08:48 AM)BearcatMan Wrote: [ -> ] (02-08-2018 12:39 AM)geef Wrote: [ -> ]Mick has been terrific. Holtmann has been a miracle worker. Really impressive job by him.
Yep...Holtmann turned a team who went 17-15 into one that's potentially top 10 this season. Oh by the way, that team lost their best overall player (JaQuon Lyle), a senior wing who led them in scoring (Marc Loving), and only added one player who is making significant contribution (Kaleb Wesson, who looks like he could very easily turn into a POY guy in a few years too). To add to that, he turned Keita Bates Diop from a fringe starter on a .500 team into a borderline lottery pick and POY candidate. If anyone else gets serious looks as COY, that person should have their voting privileges revoked.
Keita Bates Diop was like a top 30 recruit. Jae'Sean Tate and Wesson were both studs too. Holtmann is a very good coach, but it's not like he's working with a bunch of scrubs.
Never said he was. I've been on here multiple times singing the praises of Kaleb Wesson...but I know that Bates Diop and Tate "underperformed" for the past two to three years in comparison to their potential. The fact that he has turned around two "seniors" the way that he has is a testament to his coaching ability. To me, taking a team that was that bad and making them this good is much better than taking a team that was already incredibly good and making them slightly better (Xavier and Virginia).
No argument there, but I wouldn't call Holtmann a miracle worker for getting talented players to play up to their abilities. I think that OSU's underperforming at the end of Matta's tenure has made people think that Holtmann has forged a great team out of garbage.
Do you think OSU would be favored on a neutral court over UC? Do you think UC has better talent than OSU?
Good point about getting talented players to play up to their potential. I supposed my comment also refers to the work Holtmann did prior to the season, after he was hired so late in the process. Ohio State had 7 scholarship players, and one (Andre Wesson) was out indefinitely. He was able to bring a top Ohio kid over from Butler (Kyle Young), got an early high school grad in Jallow, and a grad transfer walk-on in Dakich. That gave them just enough depth to support a solid starting 5.
In terms of UC vs. OSU, I agree with much of what BearcatMan said. OSU is great on defense, and they're very disciplined. Kaleb Wesson is good, but he's foul prone. Washington and Clark, with their collective experience, would get him into early trouble. I don't think we'd beat them easily, but we match up well with them.
Channel surfing and I just dropped in on Tulane at Tulsa. What an embarrassment this conference is on national TV with almost empty arenas. We were spoiled most nights in the (real) Big East with so many fan bases that were passionate about basketball.
I'm not picking on Tulsa per se--maybe there's just a big tractor pull going on across town tonight.
(02-08-2018 07:28 PM)OKIcat Wrote: [ -> ]Channel surfing and I just dropped in on Tulane at Tulsa. What an embarrassment this conference is on national TV with almost empty arenas. We were spoiled most nights in the (real) Big East with so many fan bases that were passionate about basketball.
I'm not picking on Tulsa per se--maybe there's just a big tractor pull going on across town tonight.
Every AAC game I watched this week except ours, had bad attendance.
ESPN UC getting lots of love on GameDay for final 4.
(02-08-2018 08:08 PM)doss2 Wrote: [ -> ] (02-08-2018 07:28 PM)OKIcat Wrote: [ -> ]Channel surfing and I just dropped in on Tulane at Tulsa. What an embarrassment this conference is on national TV with almost empty arenas. We were spoiled most nights in the (real) Big East with so many fan bases that were passionate about basketball.
I'm not picking on Tulsa per se--maybe there's just a big tractor pull going on across town tonight.
Every AAC game I watched this week except ours, had bad attendance.
Sucks that 2 of the more prestigious schools (Memphis/UCONN) in the league are down right now. I just can't get over how terrible a hire Tubby was. I feel like most our road games are like playing in a church. At least in the old CUSA days our foes would bring big crowds for UC (Charlotte, Marquette, UAB, etc.)
(02-08-2018 08:12 PM)doss2 Wrote: [ -> ]ESPN UC getting lots of love on GameDay for final 4.
I was surprised to hear that from the GameDay crew and Bilas raved about Clark!
(02-08-2018 08:18 PM)jarr Wrote: [ -> ]Sucks that 2 of the more prestigious schools (Memphis/UCONN) in the league are down right now. I just can't get over how terrible a hire Tubby was. I feel like most our road games are like playing in a church. At least in the old CUSA days our foes would bring big crowds for UC (Charlotte, Marquette, UAB, etc.)
the crazier thing was was that memphis fans weren't pissed about the hire
(02-08-2018 09:15 PM)doss2 Wrote: [ -> ]Tulsa Tulane to OT
Typical AAC refs. The Tulane player was clearly fouled twice at the end of regulation trying to put the ball in the bucket. Water over the dam now.
Dook/UNC typical back and forth battle. UNC asserting itself second half.
Now if UCLA can take down Zona tonight on the road...
(02-08-2018 08:18 PM)jarr Wrote: [ -> ] (02-08-2018 08:08 PM)doss2 Wrote: [ -> ] (02-08-2018 07:28 PM)OKIcat Wrote: [ -> ]Channel surfing and I just dropped in on Tulane at Tulsa. What an embarrassment this conference is on national TV with almost empty arenas. We were spoiled most nights in the (real) Big East with so many fan bases that were passionate about basketball.
I'm not picking on Tulsa per se--maybe there's just a big tractor pull going on across town tonight.
Every AAC game I watched this week except ours, had bad attendance.
Sucks that 2 of the more prestigious schools (Memphis/UCONN) in the league are down right now. I just can't get over how terrible a hire Tubby was. I feel like most our road games are like playing in a church. At least in the old CUSA days our foes would bring big crowds for UC (Charlotte, Marquette, UAB, etc.)
Yup. Watched UConn almost lose to USF this week- was thinking how low can it go? Old CUSA was pretty hyped for road game crowds as I remember too.