CSNbbs

Full Version: Football at WSU
You're currently viewing a stripped down version of our content. View the full version with proper formatting.
Pages: 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14
I hope so. The FBS or bust mentality will make sure this effort fails. We should play a few seasons in the valley football conference, they have been FCS champions six time, would help us when we are ready to step up to FBS. I'm thinking an FCS champ is at least a middle of the pack FBS team.
(07-10-2017 08:07 PM)Shockertropic Wrote: [ -> ]I hope so. The FBS or bust mentality will make sure this effort fails. We should play a few seasons in the valley football conference, they have been FCS champions six time, would help us when we are ready to step up to FBS. I'm thinking an FCS champ is at least a middle of the pack FBS team.
1. WSU would have to play at the FCS level for a few years. NCAA rules.

2. WSU would have about 5,000 people in the stands (maybe) for FCS football.

3. The Missouri Valley Football Conference, while separate from the rest of the MVC, shares an office with the MVC. WSU is not real popular in the St. Louis offices of the MVC and the MVFC right now. WSU would NEVER be allowed to join the MVFC.

4. If WSU were to join the MVFC, we would be an absolute bottom-feeder. We'd prbably be worse than Missouri State. That would really excite the members of The American - NOT!

5. Starting football at WSU would be like putting mustard on strawberry ice cream. It wouldn't work, and it would pretty much ruin what it was added to.
(07-10-2017 09:07 PM)Aargh Wrote: [ -> ]
(07-10-2017 08:07 PM)Shockertropic Wrote: [ -> ]I hope so. The FBS or bust mentality will make sure this effort fails. We should play a few seasons in the valley football conference, they have been FCS champions six time, would help us when we are ready to step up to FBS. I'm thinking an FCS champ is at least a middle of the pack FBS team.
1. WSU would have to play at the FCS level for a few years. NCAA rules.

2. WSU would have about 5,000 people in the stands (maybe) for FCS football.

3. The Missouri Valley Football Conference, while separate from the rest of the MVC, shares an office with the MVC. WSU is not real popular in the St. Louis offices of the MVC and the MVFC right now. WSU would NEVER be allowed to join the MVFC.

4. If WSU were to join the MVFC, we would be an absolute bottom-feeder. We'd prbably be worse than Missouri State. That would really excite the members of The American - NOT!

5. Starting football at WSU would be like putting mustard on strawberry ice cream. It wouldn't work, and it would pretty much ruin what it was added to.

This is the general consensus of the old-timers who were sitting in an empty stadium the final few years of Shocker football. How do you change their minds? 1986 must have been very painful for some. I'm glad I was oblivious to what has been called a mercy killing.

But we are in a new day, a new era. College football is 100x larger than it was back in the 80's. Wichita State has a very large fanbase that bleeds black and gold. Wichita State also has a medium-sized city they call their own.

Starting up football would indeed be costly and most likely would not save us from the aftershock of a B12 implosion. But what if... what if we did successfully move up to DI? What if we actually became good? It's not like Wichita State is unfamiliar with success. We've been national champions in baseball, one away from the national championship game twice in basketball, we've been to the Sweet 16 in volleyball, made some noise in tennis and track, and yes... we absolutely DOMINATE the bowling alley... (if you laugh I will start a thread that will last until eternity detailing each and every one of our 20 men's and women's bowling national championships...03-shhhh03-lmfao)

I'm hoping that joining this league will engender a feeling of longing... a harkening back to the days of tailgating, marching bands, and a proper homecoming event. It would be great for our students, alumni, and city. Yes, it would be expensive. Gregg Marshall is expensive. We figured that one out didn't we? Look at the dividends that investment is paying.


T


...03-cool
WSU doesn't have football....they don't have the nads for it. Again...
(07-10-2017 09:07 PM)Aargh Wrote: [ -> ]
(07-10-2017 08:07 PM)Shockertropic Wrote: [ -> ]I hope so. The FBS or bust mentality will make sure this effort fails. We should play a few seasons in the valley football conference, they have been FCS champions six time, would help us when we are ready to step up to FBS. I'm thinking an FCS champ is at least a middle of the pack FBS team.
1. WSU would have to play at the FCS level for a few years. NCAA rules.

2. WSU would have about 5,000 people in the stands (maybe) for FCS football.

3. The Missouri Valley Football Conference, while separate from the rest of the MVC, shares an office with the MVC. WSU is not real popular in the St. Louis offices of the MVC and the MVFC right now. WSU would NEVER be allowed to join the MVFC.

4. If WSU were to join the MVFC, we would be an absolute bottom-feeder. We'd prbably be worse than Missouri State. That would really excite the members of The American - NOT!

5. Starting football at WSU would be like putting mustard on strawberry ice cream. It wouldn't work, and it would pretty much ruin what it was added to.

This, our new fellow conference mates, is exactly the reason we spent 74 years in the MVC! Rather than take advantage of the momentum we currently have and try to elevate our status to equal our peers, let's just rest on our laurels, milk this little bit of success we made dry and wait for twenty years till another spark comes along.

Who cares if we don't start out as champions, 5k of butts in seats is far better then the zero butts we have right now! It took Marshall four years to get us in shape to make it in to the spot light we currently enjoy. From 86 to 2000, there were not 10.5k butts in the Round House. But you can't walk up on game day and get a seat now.

Sure, we burnt the bridge with the valley, more precisely, we napalmed that mf'r! I'll give you that one! But we have to start somewhere.

I see it this way, KU football is the laughing stock of the FBS, but they keep fielding a team every year. KSU will fall into irrelevance as soon as Snyder leaves, just like the last time. This is an opportunity for WSU to step up and fill the void, turn the flock of fair weather fans of this state, southern Kansas in particular! Give them something that's been missing from this area for over 30 years. If we have to start small to get that to happen, let's just frigin' do it!

Careful Bearcats1, those are my nads rolling around out there, hate for you to trip on them!
(07-09-2017 11:43 PM)_C2_ Wrote: [ -> ]Ohio Dominican?

Yep, Cincinnati is their *****.
(07-10-2017 09:07 PM)Aargh Wrote: [ -> ]
(07-10-2017 08:07 PM)Shockertropic Wrote: [ -> ]I hope so. The FBS or bust mentality will make sure this effort fails. We should play a few seasons in the valley football conference, they have been FCS champions six time, would help us when we are ready to step up to FBS. I'm thinking an FCS champ is at least a middle of the pack FBS team.
1. WSU would have to play at the FCS level for a few years. NCAA rules.

2. WSU would have about 5,000 people in the stands (maybe) for FCS football.

3. The Missouri Valley Football Conference, while separate from the rest of the MVC, shares an office with the MVC. WSU is not real popular in the St. Louis offices of the MVC and the MVFC right now. WSU would NEVER be allowed to join the MVFC.

4. If WSU were to join the MVFC, we would be an absolute bottom-feeder. We'd prbably be worse than Missouri State. That would really excite the members of The American - NOT!

5. Starting football at WSU would be like putting mustard on strawberry ice cream. It wouldn't work, and it would pretty much ruin what it was added to.

then you don't need football, period...

FCS football at Montana:
[Image: Montana-Football-Stadium.jpg]

FCS football at Youngstown St:
[Image: stam10.jpg]

FCS football at North Dakota State:
[Image: becomesponsor_main.jpg]

this 'FBS or bust' stuff will just ensure that WSU's football dreams go bust.
(07-11-2017 02:03 PM)UofMemphis Wrote: [ -> ]
(07-10-2017 09:07 PM)Aargh Wrote: [ -> ]
(07-10-2017 08:07 PM)Shockertropic Wrote: [ -> ]I hope so. The FBS or bust mentality will make sure this effort fails. We should play a few seasons in the valley football conference, they have been FCS champions six time, would help us when we are ready to step up to FBS. I'm thinking an FCS champ is at least a middle of the pack FBS team.
1. WSU would have to play at the FCS level for a few years. NCAA rules.

2. WSU would have about 5,000 people in the stands (maybe) for FCS football.

3. The Missouri Valley Football Conference, while separate from the rest of the MVC, shares an office with the MVC. WSU is not real popular in the St. Louis offices of the MVC and the MVFC right now. WSU would NEVER be allowed to join the MVFC.

4. If WSU were to join the MVFC, we would be an absolute bottom-feeder. We'd prbably be worse than Missouri State. That would really excite the members of The American - NOT!

5. Starting football at WSU would be like putting mustard on strawberry ice cream. It wouldn't work, and it would pretty much ruin what it was added to.

then you don't need football, period...

FCS football at Montana:
[Image: Montana-Football-Stadium.jpg]

FCS football at Youngstown St:
[Image: stam10.jpg]

FCS football at North Dakota State:
[Image: becomesponsor_main.jpg]

this 'FBS or bust' stuff will just ensure that WSU's football dreams go bust.
Which is not a bad thing. If the goal is not to compete at the highest level (even if that will take 20+ years), then it's a monumental waste of resources to pursue the sport.
(07-10-2017 11:28 PM)WSUbballer Wrote: [ -> ]
(07-09-2017 11:43 PM)_C2_ Wrote: [ -> ]Ohio Dominican?

Yep, Cincinnati is their *****.

ODU! ODU! ODU!
Wichita St can start football. They just aren't going to be in the AAC. I hope Aresco made that clear when WSU joined. No football startups. That would be humiliating for this conference.
I just wouldn't jump into this with the idea WSU will become Bama soon.

It has to be done slowly. Nearly 100 schollies. A huge coaching staff. Facilities renovations and additions. Scheduling years ahead. On and on. No, the best way is to slowly do it in baby steps. Schedule a few neutral site games at Cessna over a few years to see what upgrades are needed and how much real support there is. Plan to go FCS a few years, then FBS Independent. The key is not to let it jeopardize your other programs. A question you may have to ask yourself is - would GM be willing to see MBB compete with CFB on campus? IMO he's still at WSU because he doesn't have to face that question.

Baby steps.
You can't catch a fish without your line in the water, go for it right now!
(07-12-2017 10:35 AM)JHS55 Wrote: [ -> ]You can't catch a fish without your line in the water, go for it right now!

Good analogy. If the bait-n-tackle costs $200MM+opportunity cost of sitting around waiting for a bite for 30 years.
(06-28-2017 11:55 AM)pablowow Wrote: [ -> ]
(06-28-2017 10:52 AM)Underdog Wrote: [ -> ]
(06-27-2017 06:09 PM)C0|db|00ded Wrote: [ -> ]
(06-27-2017 05:41 PM)Underdog Wrote: [ -> ]
(06-27-2017 05:11 PM)C0|db|00ded Wrote: [ -> ]So if we don't have football and the Broken12 raids the AAC, how many will they take, who will they take, and most importantly... what's WSU's chances of being included as a basketball only if we are still a perennial top 25 program?


T


...03-cool

If you would please read post #53 in this thread, I provided general answers to your questions. However, if you still want specific answers, I will do my best to provide them for you on tomorrow. Until then, please see if post #53 is satisfactory before we continue….

Quote:Consequently, Wichita St fans should be concerned about what happens to the B12. Also, please consider the conference that had the most potential B12 expansion candidates—the one that your school just joined!

Furthermore, the key to the survival of this conference is what happens to WV (West Virginia). If WV is one of the B12 leftovers, this conference will get decimated. The B12 has discussed in the past about building a bridge to WV. Once its GOR expires and certain schools leave (I anticipate at least 5), the remaining schools will use “American” parts to build a bridge to WV. They will also likely expand past 12 schools to imitate the other “Autonomous” conferences. As a result, there might not be enough schools left for the American to once again raid CUSA. Thus, it could be too weakened by the B12 raid to survive. WS would be in serious trouble for not having a football program should this occur.

Therefore, if WS at least plays FCS, it increases the probability of getting an invite because the B12 leftovers would likely receive a 2 year notice that the other schools are leaving; also, the American would need replacements.

I think I captured the pertinent points. Thanks!

I can't imagine WV staying in a depleted Big12. They are already a regional outlier. They join one of either the B1G, SEC, or ACC IMO. But I can understand the dynamic that would occur in the AAC if they did remain. They've got Cincy and UConn in their backyard.

When the B12’s GOR expires, the B1G and SEC will be making over $55 mil a school. WV doesn’t increase the value of either conference, so it wouldn’t get considered for an invite. Also, the B1G would never invite WV for academic reasons. With the B1G and SEC making that kind of money, the ACC would fall further behind them in tv revenue. WV would not increase the ACC’s revenue enough to add it in my opinion. Moreover, WV is not a marquee school with a large market and national brand. Consequently, odds are that WV will probably get left behind in the B12.

So from both standpoints, what does the Big12 look like after all the defections are complete in your opinion? WV in and WV out.

Based on my above opinion, I have no scenario where WV isn’t left behind. OU and OSU could either end up in the SEC or PAC 12. UT can go wherever it wants to a certain extent—which depends on what it's willing to do with the LHN. UT would also likely try to take TT with it. The only conference that was willing to take UT, TT, OU, and OSU on two separate occasions is the PAC 12. The only other school that I see escaping the B12 implosion is KU, which likely goes to the B1G. Therefore, the B1G 12 leftovers would likely be: Iowa St, Kansas St, Baylor, TCU, and WV.

What happens to the American depends on what they decide to do about WV. They could cut ties with WV and focus on western expansion by raiding the MWC and trying to add BYU, which is a decision that I would make. The main reason they would consider this option is because the only conference to compete with in a western footprint is the PAC 12. However, I think that the B12 will likely build a bridge to WV—which is a poor decision because their new footprint would primarily be in ACC, B1G, and SEC footprints. Nevertheless, I could see the following scenarios (please note that there are so many different scenarios like adding BYU that I only focus on what would happen if American schools were added to a B12/B14/B16):

The B12

Big West: Baylor, Houston, Iowa St, Kansas St, Memphis, TCU

Big East: Temple (added only because it was in the oBE), UC, UCF, UConn, USF, WV (this division would have 5 former oBE members)

American Leftovers: ECU (This was a tough choice because it has the best football fan base), SMU (small private that wouldn't be added because TCU is in that market), Tulane (small private), Tulsa (small private), WS (no football program), and Navy which would likely become an independent again. Furthermore, I don’t see the B12 schools agreeing to allow it to keep its Army/Navy game $$ after dealing with Texas and the LHN. SMU, WS, and Navy will face the same issues in each scenario. ECU, SMU, Tulane, Tulsa, and WS would likely be able to raid CUSA by using the exit fees as a lure. Also, there are some schools in CUSA that desperately want to get out. However, there are too many possible scenarios for me to list regarding the rebuilt American.

The B14

Big West: Baylor, Houston, Iowa St, Kansas St, Memphis, TCU, Tulane

Big East: ECU, Temple, UC, UCF, UConn, USF, WV

American Leftovers: SMU, Tulsa, WS, and Navy. Navy goes independent, while SMU and Tulsa try to get into either the MWC or CUSA. WS would likely have to go back to where it came from.

The B16

Big West: Baylor, Houston, Iowa St, Kansas St, SMU, TCU, Tulane, Tulsa

Big East: ECU, Memphis, Temple, UC, UCF, UConn, USF, WV

American Leftovers: WS and Navy.

I think this would likely happen because it allows for the American to be dissolved, which eliminates any exit fees and encourages each school to join the rebuilt B16. The B12 owns the rights to the B16 name (if I’m not mistaken). Please forgive me if I left out a school.



Now what does the AAC look like if it survives and poaches from lower leagues.

There are too many possible scenarios for me to list regarding a rebuilt American. Also, please read the comments next to red font above.

And finally, if you'd be so kind... provide a couple mock scenarios based on your assumptions/opinion showing the type of conference Wichita State would be in after 2025.

Without a football program, WS would likely have to go back to where it came from.

Bear with me here, I'm trying to use your knowledge of the AAC/B12/2025 dynamic (of which I know very little) to support my logic (of which I have a lot) to end, once and for all, the silly rebuttal some Shocker fans have for not at least attempting to restart a sport, that is the #1 defining characteristic of a major athletic university at a time when major universities are regrouping for branding purposes.

The above is only my opinion.... I'm sure there are many members here that have different opinions. Some believe that the American will add the B12 leftovers. Below is a link to a good realignment scenario thread that incudes this conference. The thread is located on the SEC board. I gave a partial response to the op’s suggestion—which I disagreed with and explained why in post #8:

http://csnbbs.com/thread-820708.html

In closing, I hope that my response was satisfactory to you. I really want Shocker fans to feel at home here, but also know that this home could collapse in the future….



T


...03-cool

My comments are in bold ^

this will happen (in my opinion) I also see (B16/AAC) Maybe continuing to keep associate members due to the fact it will still be the #5 in the power 5 structure..so any program that is power 5 status possibly can be in this conference(Navy football, Witchita olympics, BYU etc.)

I agree with you, but I think other factors will be involved....

I simplified the three above scenarios in order to provide the op with the worst realignment possibilities for the American: The B12 focusing solely on the schools in this conference. However, I see at least two or three of our schools possibly going to “Antonymous” conferences. I think Houston will eventually join UT, TT, and TCU in the PAC 12. With the PACN struggling so badly, an all Texas division is the only solution in my opinion to increase its TV revenue. Furthermore, the PAC 12 would likely land UT if three other Texas schools were allowed to come along. The LHN would probably get converted into the PAC 16 Lone Star Network. The PAC 16 would likely form 4 divisions of four. The SEC adds OU and OSU while also forming 4 divisions of four. The B1G probably takes KU and UConn while the ACC takes UC to go with ND. Now we see why the B12 leftovers would likely expand to the B16.

In the aforementioned scenario, the B12 is down to ISU, KSU, Baylor, and WV. The American loses Houston, UConn, and UC. Instead of the B12 leftovers doing what’s smart: Cutting ties with WV and raiding the MWC. The B12 leftovers will likely become desperate and stuck-on-stupid; thus, expanding towards WV…. In this scenario, WS without a FCS program could get left out. If WS has a FCS program when (not if) this occurs, it would likely be invited to play FBS in the rebuilt B12, which will depend on its basketball program still playing consistently at a top level. My point: WS starting a FCS program depends on what its administrators believe will eventually happen to the unstable B12—which is a gamble at best. Do I think playing FCS is worth the gamble? Yes….
I have an accounting degree and used to do a lot of financial projections for mergers and acquisitions. I did cash flow forecasts for businesses traded on the NYSE.

I ran the numbers for WSU football. I used 85 scholarships for football, and an equal number for women's sports. I had to guess at facilities costs for the additional women's sports. The price of coaching staffs was fairly easy to calculate. I used football coaching staffs competitive with low- to mid-tier P5 programs. My reasoning was that if you don't want to spend the money to get to that level, there's not much reason to make the effort.

I made the assumption that WSU would be able to get the maximum number of road games from schools that needed the W's for bowl eligibility and would pay the upper end of the going rates for those games.

There would be no TV revenues or bowl game revenues.

Those costs, offset by the guarantee game incomes left about $12 million that had to come from "somewhere". There would be 6 home games, alumni donations, student fees, and revenues from the women's sports to offset that amount.

If all that money comes from football revenues, that's $2 million per home game in a 30,000 seat stadium. Let's say that $3 mill could be raised from donations (which is questionable - especially since it would be EVERY YEAR) and that student fees could be hit for $100 a semester. That would raise another $3 mill. Students would have to approve that, which is questionable. That reduces the football revenue required to $6 million.

With an average ticket price of $40, the most optimistic projection requires an average attendance of 15,000 people. There are 600,000 in the metro area. That's 1 out of every 40 people within 30 or 40 miles of the stadium attending every home game. That's not going to happen with a team that a startup could put on the field, for a school with only negative history with a football program.

Getting past the pure economics of financial projections. Wanna try to hire a football coach who makes less than the basketball coach? We have a local example of how that works just up the turnpike at KU.

My conclusion was that $100 million would be a comfortable starting figure to be raised to support the program until TV revenues and bowl games would begin contributing to the income stream.

It is my opinion that doing football "on the cheap" is a way to bankrupt the athletic department and take down the basketball program, in addition to creating an unsuccessful football program. Doing football in a way that has any chance for long-term success is spectacularly unaffordable.
I thought this might've been about Washington State, and came here expecting to read about more arrests. lol
(07-10-2017 09:07 PM)Aargh Wrote: [ -> ]
(07-10-2017 08:07 PM)Shockertropic Wrote: [ -> ]I hope so. The FBS or bust mentality will make sure this effort fails. We should play a few seasons in the valley football conference, they have been FCS champions six time, would help us when we are ready to step up to FBS. I'm thinking an FCS champ is at least a middle of the pack FBS team.
1. WSU would have to play at the FCS level for a few years. NCAA rules.

2. WSU would have about 5,000 people in the stands (maybe) for FCS football.

3. The Missouri Valley Football Conference, while separate from the rest of the MVC, shares an office with the MVC. WSU is not real popular in the St. Louis offices of the MVC and the MVFC right now. WSU would NEVER be allowed to join the MVFC.

4. If WSU were to join the MVFC, we would be an absolute bottom-feeder. We'd prbably be worse than Missouri State. That would really excite the members of The American - NOT!

5. Starting football at WSU would be like putting mustard on strawberry ice cream. It wouldn't work, and it would pretty much ruin what it was added to.

Just a reminder again for the AAC folks, Aargh is the President and Founder of the "I hate WSU football club" and actively searches our forums and threads about WSU football to only **** in them and proclaim it can't be done. Dozens of schools have brought the sport back proving that, yes it can be done. This thread may now proceed....
(07-13-2017 01:59 AM)Shox Wrote: [ -> ]
(07-10-2017 09:07 PM)Aargh Wrote: [ -> ]
(07-10-2017 08:07 PM)Shockertropic Wrote: [ -> ]I hope so. The FBS or bust mentality will make sure this effort fails. We should play a few seasons in the valley football conference, they have been FCS champions six time, would help us when we are ready to step up to FBS. I'm thinking an FCS champ is at least a middle of the pack FBS team.
1. WSU would have to play at the FCS level for a few years. NCAA rules.

2. WSU would have about 5,000 people in the stands (maybe) for FCS football.

3. The Missouri Valley Football Conference, while separate from the rest of the MVC, shares an office with the MVC. WSU is not real popular in the St. Louis offices of the MVC and the MVFC right now. WSU would NEVER be allowed to join the MVFC.

4. If WSU were to join the MVFC, we would be an absolute bottom-feeder. We'd prbably be worse than Missouri State. That would really excite the members of The American - NOT!

5. Starting football at WSU would be like putting mustard on strawberry ice cream. It wouldn't work, and it would pretty much ruin what it was added to.

Just a reminder again for the AAC folks, Aargh is the President and Founder of the "I hate WSU football club" and actively searches our forums and threads about WSU football to only **** in them and proclaim it can't be done. Dozens of schools have brought the sport back proving that, yes it can be done. This thread may now proceed....

How do you think WS should proceed regarding football? I give Aarghc credit (and +2) for explaining his reason why WS shouldn’t pursue football in Post #155.
Aargh cooked the books to support his narrative. You don't START a football program with mid-tier P5 football coaching salaries. That would be absurd. You make solid hires for the level you are at and progress from there. Does everybody in the AAC pay their football coaching staff equal to mid-tier SEC staffs? I would also like to see the "accountant's" fleeting references to women's' facilities cost clearly identified. If I'm starting up a football program, the equivalent scholarships in women's' sports would be satisfied with events occurring on a field of grass. I'll hand out sticks and balls and tell them you're welcome.


T


...03-cool
(07-13-2017 10:55 AM)C0|db|00ded Wrote: [ -> ]Aargh cooked the books to support his narrative. You don't START a football program with mid-tier P5 football coaching salaries. That would be absurd. You make solid hires for the level you are at and progress from there. Does everybody in the AAC pay their football coaching staff equal to mid-tier SEC staffs? I would also like to see the "accountant's" fleeting references to women's' facilities cost clearly identified. If I'm starting up a football program, the equivalent scholarships in women's' sports would be satisfied with events occurring on a field of grass. I'll hand out sticks and balls and tell them you're welcome.


T


...03-cool

I'm not agreeing with him… but at least he presented figures that would show this conference WS is committed to competing at the next level—which you’ve stated should be the ultimate goal for starting football again at WS….
Pages: 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14
Reference URL's