(06-22-2017 05:23 PM)Lenvillecards Wrote: [ -> ] (06-22-2017 03:40 PM)opossum Wrote: [ -> ] (06-22-2017 01:52 PM)cuseroc Wrote: [ -> ] (06-22-2017 01:08 PM)opossum Wrote: [ -> ] (06-22-2017 12:08 PM)cuseroc Wrote: [ -> ]I dont think there are any Syracuse fans complaining about playing Army or that Army is viewed as a P5 game. So I dont know why you think differently. Why do we care if Wake or Duke play the service academies? 
Second, you dont think Wake and Duke have to get used to things, but they do. Playing the ACC tourney in NYC is one off the top of my head. Another, both schools had to get used to Louisville being invited to the ACC over Uconn. I know some of you old school ACC fans have a problem with these changes and loss of influence, but again, get used to it. There likely will be more coming. Have a nice day.
I fully appreciate that Syracuse and Army have likely played lots of football games, and that many ACC schools likewise have long traditions of playing football games with Notre Dame, Army and Navy. No matter what the newcomers or anyone else says, I (speaking only for myself) consider matchups such as Tech/Navy or Duke/Notre Dame or Syracuse/Army to be of the same status as matchups such as Boston College/Northwestern or Wake/Vanderbilt or South Carolina/Auburn. Anyone who disagrees simply has to get used to it.
As for your other points, I didn't attend the Tournament this year, and don't have enough information to judge whether the experiment of holding it in New York City rather than Greensboro was a success for the ACC overall. I do think it achieved the correct result, and Game 12 was especially satisfying. I'm confused by the remark about UConn. Why would anyone in the ACC ever prefer or have ever preferred UConn over Louisville?
Regarding Uconn, I thought I read somewhere, among other rumors that the likes of Duke, Wake and UNC were favoring Uconn over Louisville. But then Clemson and FSU flexed their muscle and demanded Louisville.
I believe Duke and UNC have opposed every expansion since George Tech, with the possible exception of Notre Dame. Wake has not. I know Duke and UNC's position had unfortunate consequences for Syracuse for 8 years (to Virginia Tech's benefit) but it worked out for Syracuse, Pitt and Virginia Tech in the end.
After Maryland left I'm sure UConn was considered, but aside from geography (which went out the window when Notre Dame joined) I can't think of any reason why Duke, Wake or UNC would have preferred UConn over Louisville. Women's basketball?
I can't deny that I've heard the same rumors but they never made any sense at all to me. I think UConn fans with grandiose ideas about their sudden rise to Division I-A and a BCS AQ conference probably started them.
There's no denying UCONN superior academics when compared to Louisville. I have heard rumors that coach Pitino & coach K talked & that he favored Louisville inclusion. The decent over Louisville, if any existed, was purely over academics I believe. Cincinnati was also considered & I believe they finished second in the voting. I don't believe that UCONN was even brought to a vote. According to rumors, Louisville had already been in talks with FSU & possibly Clemson about the Big 12. There was likely a relationship already beginning there.
Academics gets brought up a lot. I think a lot of what might have driven or continues to drive any notion that UConn has superior academics to Louisville is an initial perception that UofL is or was a "commuter school." It's accurate to some extent (for whatever that's worth in the 21st Century), but it's also driven in part by Louisville's turn as a municipal university and by its ongoing commitment to community education, such as the Metropolitan College program with UPS (which is a very good thing from what I've learned about it). It's also driven by the fact that it's a public school named after a city rather than a state. (That probably hurt Pitt initially for some people too). Take those factors away, and comparing UConn and Louisville you're basically looking at two large and somewhat selective state schools.
One of which is over 200 years old and had been playing football and other sports against current ACC members for decades when the decision was made.
(06-21-2017 07:58 PM)8BitPirate Wrote: [ -> ]Funny thing is that Wake Forest counts toward P5....
Wake Forest v. East Carolina
All-Time Results
9/17/05 Wake Forest 44, East Carolina 34
9/11/04 Wake Forest 31, East Carolina 17
9/20/03 Wake Forest 34, East Carolina 16
9/7/02 Wake Forest 27, East Carolina 22
9/1/01 Wake Forest 21, East Carolina 19
9/13/97 East Carolina 25, Wake Forest 24
9/22/79 Wake Forest 23, East Carolina 20
(06-22-2017 05:13 PM)GTFletch Wrote: [ -> ] (06-21-2017 08:33 PM)cuseroc Wrote: [ -> ] (06-21-2017 07:02 PM)GTFletch Wrote: [ -> ] (06-21-2017 06:47 PM)ken d Wrote: [ -> ]Perhaps the AD was saying the ACC will allow Syracuse to count Army toward their P5 OOC requirement. They could just be an exception due to geography.
Do you think WAKE & DUKE will let that stand???
If the ACC has already agreed to allow it, then Wake and Duke will just have to get used to it.
My point was and is that Duke and Wake have Army on the schedule and they will want that game to count as a P5!!!
I just don't see the ACC making Army a special exception. I see it as they are okay for everyone in the ACC to play as a P5 OOC substitute.
(06-24-2017 08:28 AM)TexanMark Wrote: [ -> ]I just don't see the ACC making Army a special exception. I see it as they are okay for everyone in the ACC to play as a P5 OOC substitute.
The ACC and SEC both count Notre Dame, BYU and Army as P5 opponents!
I think in this thread someone even posted a message from David Teel confirming this. The GT fans and Alumni were given this information a while back, and stated that GT will not try and schedule service academies... I am not sure why... I didn't realize that it had not made the round in the media...
(06-24-2017 08:28 AM)TexanMark Wrote: [ -> ] (06-22-2017 05:13 PM)GTFletch Wrote: [ -> ] (06-21-2017 08:33 PM)cuseroc Wrote: [ -> ] (06-21-2017 07:02 PM)GTFletch Wrote: [ -> ] (06-21-2017 06:47 PM)ken d Wrote: [ -> ]Perhaps the AD was saying the ACC will allow Syracuse to count Army toward their P5 OOC requirement. They could just be an exception due to geography.
Do you think WAKE & DUKE will let that stand???
If the ACC has already agreed to allow it, then Wake and Duke will just have to get used to it.
My point was and is that Duke and Wake have Army on the schedule and they will want that game to count as a P5!!!
I just don't see the ACC making Army a special exception. I see it as they are okay for everyone in the ACC to play as a P5 OOC substitute.
Agreed. And it is a shame that neither Navy nor Air Force do simply because they are part of a G5 conference and the ACC and SEC probably don't want to get into the fairness or unfairness of not including other members within those conferences as P5 equivalents.
Of course, outside of ND and BYU I find the whole "P5 equivalent opponent" nonsense anyway, particularly in light of the way our Cuse has performed on the field for a decade and a half now. Here's hoping Babers gets us back to slightly above mediocre soon.
Cheers,
Neil
(06-24-2017 07:47 AM)Buckminster Fuller Wrote: [ -> ] (06-21-2017 07:58 PM)8BitPirate Wrote: [ -> ]Funny thing is that Wake Forest counts toward P5....
Wake Forest v. East Carolina
All-Time Results
9/17/05 Wake Forest 44, East Carolina 34
9/11/04 Wake Forest 31, East Carolina 17
9/20/03 Wake Forest 34, East Carolina 16
9/7/02 Wake Forest 27, East Carolina 22
9/1/01 Wake Forest 21, East Carolina 19
9/13/97 East Carolina 25, Wake Forest 24
9/22/79 Wake Forest 23, East Carolina 20
.408 442-648-33 Wake Forest All Time Record
Just screams "power" conference....
(06-27-2017 09:22 PM)8BitPirate Wrote: [ -> ] (06-24-2017 07:47 AM)Buckminster Fuller Wrote: [ -> ] (06-21-2017 07:58 PM)8BitPirate Wrote: [ -> ]Funny thing is that Wake Forest counts toward P5....
Wake Forest v. East Carolina
All-Time Results
9/17/05 Wake Forest 44, East Carolina 34
9/11/04 Wake Forest 31, East Carolina 17
9/20/03 Wake Forest 34, East Carolina 16
9/7/02 Wake Forest 27, East Carolina 22
9/1/01 Wake Forest 21, East Carolina 19
9/13/97 East Carolina 25, Wake Forest 24
9/22/79 Wake Forest 23, East Carolina 20
.408 442-648-33 Wake Forest All Time Record
Just screams "power" conference....
What did Wake Forest ever do to you?
(06-27-2017 09:34 PM)opossum Wrote: [ -> ]What did Wake Forest ever do to you?
I think it might be this...
![[Image: 364dd3e1f903e22a68db497b52da66b25eceb803...8aa8f6.jpg]](http://s2.quickmeme.com/img/36/364dd3e1f903e22a68db497b52da66b25eceb8030ef1fff6c496d21d728aa8f6.jpg)
(06-27-2017 10:04 PM)Hokie Mark Wrote: [ -> ] (06-27-2017 09:34 PM)opossum Wrote: [ -> ]What did Wake Forest ever do to you?
I think it might be this...
ECU being 1-6 vs WF would say no they're not.
(06-28-2017 07:25 AM)Lenvillecards Wrote: [ -> ] (06-27-2017 10:04 PM)Hokie Mark Wrote: [ -> ] (06-27-2017 09:34 PM)opossum Wrote: [ -> ]What did Wake Forest ever do to you?
I think it might be this...
ECU being 1-6 vs WF would say no they're not.
So Cincy should be here instead of you?
I'm told it came down to Louisville or Cincinnati.
(06-28-2017 07:19 PM)Hokie Mark Wrote: [ -> ]I'm told it came down to Louisville or Cincinnati.
I'm told it came down to Louisville or FSU walks.
Cheers,
Neil
(06-24-2017 01:33 AM)opossum Wrote: [ -> ] (06-22-2017 05:23 PM)Lenvillecards Wrote: [ -> ] (06-22-2017 03:40 PM)opossum Wrote: [ -> ] (06-22-2017 01:52 PM)cuseroc Wrote: [ -> ] (06-22-2017 01:08 PM)opossum Wrote: [ -> ]I fully appreciate that Syracuse and Army have likely played lots of football games, and that many ACC schools likewise have long traditions of playing football games with Notre Dame, Army and Navy. No matter what the newcomers or anyone else says, I (speaking only for myself) consider matchups such as Tech/Navy or Duke/Notre Dame or Syracuse/Army to be of the same status as matchups such as Boston College/Northwestern or Wake/Vanderbilt or South Carolina/Auburn. Anyone who disagrees simply has to get used to it.
As for your other points, I didn't attend the Tournament this year, and don't have enough information to judge whether the experiment of holding it in New York City rather than Greensboro was a success for the ACC overall. I do think it achieved the correct result, and Game 12 was especially satisfying. I'm confused by the remark about UConn. Why would anyone in the ACC ever prefer or have ever preferred UConn over Louisville?
Regarding Uconn, I thought I read somewhere, among other rumors that the likes of Duke, Wake and UNC were favoring Uconn over Louisville. But then Clemson and FSU flexed their muscle and demanded Louisville.
I believe Duke and UNC have opposed every expansion since George Tech, with the possible exception of Notre Dame. Wake has not. I know Duke and UNC's position had unfortunate consequences for Syracuse for 8 years (to Virginia Tech's benefit) but it worked out for Syracuse, Pitt and Virginia Tech in the end.
After Maryland left I'm sure UConn was considered, but aside from geography (which went out the window when Notre Dame joined) I can't think of any reason why Duke, Wake or UNC would have preferred UConn over Louisville. Women's basketball?
I can't deny that I've heard the same rumors but they never made any sense at all to me. I think UConn fans with grandiose ideas about their sudden rise to Division I-A and a BCS AQ conference probably started them.
There's no denying UCONN superior academics when compared to Louisville. I have heard rumors that coach Pitino & coach K talked & that he favored Louisville inclusion. The decent over Louisville, if any existed, was purely over academics I believe. Cincinnati was also considered & I believe they finished second in the voting. I don't believe that UCONN was even brought to a vote. According to rumors, Louisville had already been in talks with FSU & possibly Clemson about the Big 12. There was likely a relationship already beginning there.
Academics gets brought up a lot. I think a lot of what might have driven or continues to drive any notion that UConn has superior academics to Louisville is an initial perception that UofL is or was a "commuter school." It's accurate to some extent (for whatever that's worth in the 21st Century), but it's also driven in part by Louisville's turn as a municipal university and by its ongoing commitment to community education, such as the Metropolitan College program with UPS (which is a very good thing from what I've learned about it). It's also driven by the fact that it's a public school named after a city rather than a state. (That probably hurt Pitt initially for some people too). Take those factors away, and comparing UConn and Louisville you're basically looking at two large and somewhat selective state schools.
One of which is over 200 years old and had been playing football and other sports against current ACC members for decades when the decision was made.
???
A name? That's a new line of reasoning I've never heard. Pitt is state-related, not a true public, with 179 years as a fully private school prior to 1966. It was also named the Western University of Pennsylvania, as a private institution, for 89 years.
I'm pretty sure being named after a city and being public doesn't hurt anyone any more than it hurts any private like Miami, Syracuse, or BC. People influencing decisions are well aware of what these institutions are all about.
(06-28-2017 08:14 PM)CrazyPaco Wrote: [ -> ] (06-24-2017 01:33 AM)opossum Wrote: [ -> ] (06-22-2017 05:23 PM)Lenvillecards Wrote: [ -> ] (06-22-2017 03:40 PM)opossum Wrote: [ -> ] (06-22-2017 01:52 PM)cuseroc Wrote: [ -> ]Regarding Uconn, I thought I read somewhere, among other rumors that the likes of Duke, Wake and UNC were favoring Uconn over Louisville. But then Clemson and FSU flexed their muscle and demanded Louisville.
I believe Duke and UNC have opposed every expansion since George Tech, with the possible exception of Notre Dame. Wake has not. I know Duke and UNC's position had unfortunate consequences for Syracuse for 8 years (to Virginia Tech's benefit) but it worked out for Syracuse, Pitt and Virginia Tech in the end.
After Maryland left I'm sure UConn was considered, but aside from geography (which went out the window when Notre Dame joined) I can't think of any reason why Duke, Wake or UNC would have preferred UConn over Louisville. Women's basketball?
I can't deny that I've heard the same rumors but they never made any sense at all to me. I think UConn fans with grandiose ideas about their sudden rise to Division I-A and a BCS AQ conference probably started them.
There's no denying UCONN superior academics when compared to Louisville. I have heard rumors that coach Pitino & coach K talked & that he favored Louisville inclusion. The decent over Louisville, if any existed, was purely over academics I believe. Cincinnati was also considered & I believe they finished second in the voting. I don't believe that UCONN was even brought to a vote. According to rumors, Louisville had already been in talks with FSU & possibly Clemson about the Big 12. There was likely a relationship already beginning there.
Academics gets brought up a lot. I think a lot of what might have driven or continues to drive any notion that UConn has superior academics to Louisville is an initial perception that UofL is or was a "commuter school." It's accurate to some extent (for whatever that's worth in the 21st Century), but it's also driven in part by Louisville's turn as a municipal university and by its ongoing commitment to community education, such as the Metropolitan College program with UPS (which is a very good thing from what I've learned about it). It's also driven by the fact that it's a public school named after a city rather than a state. (That probably hurt Pitt initially for some people too). Take those factors away, and comparing UConn and Louisville you're basically looking at two large and somewhat selective state schools.
One of which is over 200 years old and had been playing football and other sports against current ACC members for decades when the decision was made.
???
A name? That's a new line of reasoning I've never heard. Pitt is state-related, not a true public, with 179 years as a fully private school prior to 1966. It was also named the Western University of Pennsylvania, as a private institution, for 89 years.
I'm pretty sure being named after a city and being public doesn't hurt anyone any more than it hurts any private like Miami, Syracuse, or BC. People influencing decisions are well aware of what these institutions are all about.
I know about Pitt, Syracuse, Miami, Louisville, BC, the University of Chicago, etc. And I did say "initially" and "for some people." I was really just grasping at straws to explain why there might be some huge distinction being drawn between Louisville and UConn academically, to address Lenvillecards's assertion that there is "no denying UCONN superior academics when compared to Louisville." I could have stated that point more directly as "if UConn were called the University of Storrs, UConn's perceived academic superiority would be smaller."
I certainly didn't mean any slight to Pitt. It's fair to say that Pitt is more academically prestigious than either UConn or Louisville. Unlike UConn though, both Pitt and Louisville have been around as institutions for 200+ years and have been playing college sports including football at the highest level for as long as that's been a thing. UConn wouldn't have been the youngest school in the ACC (Miami is), but UConn had less than 15 years of Division IA football under their belts at the time. For the many reasons beyond FSU's and Coach K's preferences that the ACC preferred Louisville over UConn, I think that fact probably weighed more than year to year academic rankings in terms of which school the ACC deemed "a better fit" or a "peer institution."
UL's issue is probably its mission statement and funding, not its name.
My guess is that it's mission is to educate the citizens of Louisville, thereby driving the local economy. Or st the very least, I bet that's historically been its mission statement. And Louisville has probably followed that mission statement closely (like WVU).
Also, Louisville/Kentucky has probably dumped FAR LESS money into the U of L than CT has into UCONN.
(06-29-2017 09:24 AM)nzmorange Wrote: [ -> ]UL's issue is probably its mission statement and funding, not its name.
My guess is that it's mission is to educate the citizens of Louisville, thereby driving the local economy. Or st the very least, I bet that's historically been its mission statement. And Louisville has probably followed that mission statement closely (like WVU).
Also, Louisville/Kentucky has probably dumped FAR LESS money into the U of L than CT has into UCONN.
I agree completely about Louisville and WVU. And state mandates or even internal mission statements that indirectly have the effect of moving schools up or down on whatever ranking you look at shouldn't be held against them. Georgia Tech is another good example -- by any objective measure it is among the best places to receive an engineering or science education in the world. But Cal Tech and MIT (which are equally fine STEM schools) are often ranked much higher because they are private and have no state mandate or obligation to California or Massachusetts students, so they can make their numbers look better.