(03-11-2017 12:55 PM)TexanMark Wrote: [ -> ] (03-11-2017 12:36 PM)Lenvillecards Wrote: [ -> ]I'll tackle the recruiting angle argument here & use an example. 247 #1 overall recruit is Mohamed Bamba who coincidentally is from New York, NY. He is uncommitted & the site lists 23 schools recruiting him, 6 are from the ACC (Duke, FSU, UofL, NC, Syracuse & WF). Being able to tell this recruit that he will be able to come home & play in front of his family & friends can give these ACC teams an edge over the teams that can't, depending on how important that is to him. That also helps diminish that edge would give to the BE schools recruiting him. Having area teams in the ACC also helps. In recruiting you take & use every edge you can get.
As far as to where the ACC tournament should be played, I obviously prefer Louisville but I know that's not happening. If we have to pick one location then I think it should either be NY or DC. If we are keeping a rotation then Greensboro/Charlotte should definitely be in the mix with DC & NY. MSG will always command the stage in NY however. Can Brooklyn match MSG? Perhaps, over time as the ACC tournament proves to be far superior than the BE tournament. The BE at MSG didn't become BE at MSG overnight & neither did the ACC tourney in Greensboro.
Brooklyn to me is like this:
In NYC Baseball there is Yankee Stadium (MSG) and the Mets CitiField (Brooklyn)
Brooklyn is ok but it isn't MSG.
That's true when you compare the stages but what about the actors on the stage? Sooner or later wouldn't the audience choose the show over the stage?
(03-11-2017 01:54 PM)Lenvillecards Wrote: [ -> ] (03-11-2017 12:55 PM)TexanMark Wrote: [ -> ] (03-11-2017 12:36 PM)Lenvillecards Wrote: [ -> ]I'll tackle the recruiting angle argument here & use an example. 247 #1 overall recruit is Mohamed Bamba who coincidentally is from New York, NY. He is uncommitted & the site lists 23 schools recruiting him, 6 are from the ACC (Duke, FSU, UofL, NC, Syracuse & WF). Being able to tell this recruit that he will be able to come home & play in front of his family & friends can give these ACC teams an edge over the teams that can't, depending on how important that is to him. That also helps diminish that edge would give to the BE schools recruiting him. Having area teams in the ACC also helps. In recruiting you take & use every edge you can get.
As far as to where the ACC tournament should be played, I obviously prefer Louisville but I know that's not happening. If we have to pick one location then I think it should either be NY or DC. If we are keeping a rotation then Greensboro/Charlotte should definitely be in the mix with DC & NY. MSG will always command the stage in NY however. Can Brooklyn match MSG? Perhaps, over time as the ACC tournament proves to be far superior than the BE tournament. The BE at MSG didn't become BE at MSG overnight & neither did the ACC tourney in Greensboro.
Brooklyn to me is like this:
In NYC Baseball there is Yankee Stadium (MSG) and the Mets CitiField (Brooklyn)
Brooklyn is ok but it isn't MSG.
That's true when you compare the stages but what about the actors on the stage? Sooner or later wouldn't the audience choose the show over the stage?
Somewhat...what made MSG awesome was the number of alumni that worked in Manhattan and could make the games. Brooklyn is Brooklyn and a tougher psychological barrier to get there.
The best thing about NYC is you can do other things if your team gets knocked out early...applies to both MSG and Brooklyn.
(03-11-2017 01:11 PM)ClemVegas Wrote: [ -> ]saying MSG is the 'mecca of basketball' is an opinion , not a fact. you obviously are a NYC superfan.
the big stage is television against ranked teams. as i've pointed out, i believe Greensboro probably has bigger crowds than the crowd in NYC this week.
You're right, it is an opinion. One that is widely shared and spoken to by the basketball media and community in general. It is sort of the basketball equivalent to Carnegie Hall, at least for kids in the northeast. Regardless of the sport, Madison Square Garden is up there with Yankee Stadium, Fenway, Wrigley, Lambeau, Wembley, the Rose Bowl, and Churchill Downs. It's pretty fair to say that its tagline is correct, it is "the world's most famous arena."
The only other facility that might come close in college basketball might be the Palestra, which I think is actually more synonymous with college basketball history than MSG, but it is smaller and a less generally prominent facility overall. After that, you start getting more single team on-campus facilities like Cameron, Hinkle, Rupp, Allen, and Pauley.
I hope Greensboro had bigger crowds. It seats 5,700+ more than Barclays. I'm assuming tickets are sold out at any location except for the Tuesday opening round games. Barclays did apparently have a crowd last night that was several hundred over capacity. It appears to be doing well despite the three northeastern teams all sucking and exiting early.
(03-11-2017 02:05 AM)CrazyPaco Wrote: [ -> ] (03-11-2017 12:12 AM)ClemVegas Wrote: [ -> ]ok so you are making NYC out as this amazing place to play yet you thinik my Knicks point isn't relevant to your silly argument? lol you are terrible at debate. if it is the greatest stage on earth, why can't they land better free agents?
why does a program like UNC need to play in NYC to get good players? don't you think a kid wants to play for a college that wins a lot of games and titles and puts a lot of players in the NBA?
you are shifting the goal posts now, previously you were making it about exposure for the conference, now you are saying it only helps elite teams in the ACC to play in NYC. why is it in the best interest for the lesser teams in the ACC to play in a market to help UNC and Duke recruit players? lol
i look at UNC's team and it loaded with players from NC and southern states. but you acting like players from NYC are a difference maker. i have never heard of NY being a major basketball recruiting area.
why aren't Seton Hall and St. John's top programs in college basketball?
I honestly don't know where you are getting your at. You aren't following and maybe that's my fault. UNC and Duke don't need anything but their own brands to get players. They don't need NYC and they don't need the ACC. There are about 5 to 10 elite basketball programs at their level. Still, particularly Duke, schedules non-conference games in NYC anyway, sometimes multiple games a year. My point was the opposite: schools that aren't elite can get an edge in recruiting NYC by increasing their exposure in the city. And many do that, intentionally, by scheduling as many games there as they can. Recruiting isn't the only reason they schedule games there, but it is a reason, and they use it their sales pitch to kids in the area if they do it. If a school doesn't want to mine the NY metro, then by all means, don't worry about it, as it is a competitive place to recruit, but it still the largest producer of prep talent. It's like ignoring South Florida in football. You don't have to recruit there to be successful, but if want to send staff to that area, there is more of an opening if you have a regular presence there. And Miami has sucked in football for a while too, and FIU and FAU are terrible, but that doesn't speak at all to the football talent available there. An analogy would be that Ohio State can recruit Florida if it wants since is an elite program that needs no introduction, and they can ignore Florida and still be wildly successful because their local base is solid plus they can recruit nationally. But if Pitt or Louisville is recruiting against Purdue or Maryland in the state, guess who is going to have the advantage all other things being equal. Keeping a presence in Florida was the only reason USF was added to the Big East when Miami left.
Silly argument? It's not an argument. I'm trying to explain some of the reasons about why things are the way the are and why many college basketball programs still want to get to NYC. The fact that you are trying to debate it doesn't change the reality. Feel free to continue to tilt at windmills. I'm not finding it useful anymore because not even the most brilliant retort is changing the fact of where the ACC Championship is being played tonight, nor will it change the ACC's strategy is about getting into the Northeast, nor will it stop schools from scheduling games in New York. And your Knicks point just shows how much you don't know about New York, and is completely irrelevant to college basketball recruiting in the city (or anywhere else). It's like saying the Dolphins, Bucs, and Jags suckatude reflects on the desirability of prep football players to want to stay in Florida for college.
And you should be aware that St. John's was one of the greatest programs in college basketball history up until it imploded under Jarvis following a team sex scandal and subsequent sanctions in early 2000s. It has struggled ever since Carnesecca has retired and other schools, like Pitt, have taken advantage of the vacuum. Part of its decline coincided with bad coaching hires coupled with the scandals and some institutional decisions that affected its ability to recruit. Another part of it is that it also has fallen way behind in its on-campus facilities. It still is the #8 winningest program in college basketball history by wins and #11 by %. That's better than everyone in the ACC but Carolina, Duke, and Syracuse. For comparison sake, its got a tiny fraction of the athletic money and facilities that Clemson has, and only a shred of the academic reputation, yet unlike Clemson it does have at least two tournament wins this decade, and those are almost exclusively due to the serendipity of its location. However, SJU is not likely to be back in the tourney soon due to the incredible stupidity (at least IMO) of its most recent hire.
CCNY was one of the biggest basketball powers in the first half of the 20th century winning the NIT and NCAA in the same year. They were rocked by a point-shaving scandal in the 1950s and eventually dropped to Division 3. Most of the schools in NYC deemphasized sports after WWII, which is also why you don't see any FBS football teams there.
Seton Hall is a tiny (its got less than 6K total students on lest than 60 acres) Catholic School tucked 40 minutes outside the city and was largely forgettable for most of its history until PJ Carlisemo came to town, and then sucked after he left. The only thing attractive about coaching at that school is that it is near NYC and in the Big East, the latter resulting from the fortuitous circumstance of it having the luck of the Big East's first choices turning it down when the conference formed. The athletic department has even less money than St. John's and it's one of the tougher jobs in high major basketball and is typically a stepping stone if a coach can succeed there. They are just regaining their footing a little under Willard (who, btw, is a Pitt alumnus).
Duke plays in the NYC metro area because that is where a good portion of their student body comes from.
We used to playfully refer to Duke as the University of New Jersey at Durham. It is also where the DOOK comes from. It seems that if you pronounce Duke with a New York/New Jersey accent it comes out DOOK.
(03-11-2017 02:10 PM)XLance Wrote: [ -> ] (03-11-2017 02:05 AM)CrazyPaco Wrote: [ -> ] (03-11-2017 12:12 AM)ClemVegas Wrote: [ -> ]ok so you are making NYC out as this amazing place to play yet you thinik my Knicks point isn't relevant to your silly argument? lol you are terrible at debate. if it is the greatest stage on earth, why can't they land better free agents?
why does a program like UNC need to play in NYC to get good players? don't you think a kid wants to play for a college that wins a lot of games and titles and puts a lot of players in the NBA?
you are shifting the goal posts now, previously you were making it about exposure for the conference, now you are saying it only helps elite teams in the ACC to play in NYC. why is it in the best interest for the lesser teams in the ACC to play in a market to help UNC and Duke recruit players? lol
i look at UNC's team and it loaded with players from NC and southern states. but you acting like players from NYC are a difference maker. i have never heard of NY being a major basketball recruiting area.
why aren't Seton Hall and St. John's top programs in college basketball?
I honestly don't know where you are getting your at. You aren't following and maybe that's my fault. UNC and Duke don't need anything but their own brands to get players. They don't need NYC and they don't need the ACC. There are about 5 to 10 elite basketball programs at their level. Still, particularly Duke, schedules non-conference games in NYC anyway, sometimes multiple games a year. My point was the opposite: schools that aren't elite can get an edge in recruiting NYC by increasing their exposure in the city. And many do that, intentionally, by scheduling as many games there as they can. Recruiting isn't the only reason they schedule games there, but it is a reason, and they use it their sales pitch to kids in the area if they do it. If a school doesn't want to mine the NY metro, then by all means, don't worry about it, as it is a competitive place to recruit, but it still the largest producer of prep talent. It's like ignoring South Florida in football. You don't have to recruit there to be successful, but if want to send staff to that area, there is more of an opening if you have a regular presence there. And Miami has sucked in football for a while too, and FIU and FAU are terrible, but that doesn't speak at all to the football talent available there. An analogy would be that Ohio State can recruit Florida if it wants since is an elite program that needs no introduction, and they can ignore Florida and still be wildly successful because their local base is solid plus they can recruit nationally. But if Pitt or Louisville is recruiting against Purdue or Maryland in the state, guess who is going to have the advantage all other things being equal. Keeping a presence in Florida was the only reason USF was added to the Big East when Miami left.
Silly argument? It's not an argument. I'm trying to explain some of the reasons about why things are the way the are and why many college basketball programs still want to get to NYC. The fact that you are trying to debate it doesn't change the reality. Feel free to continue to tilt at windmills. I'm not finding it useful anymore because not even the most brilliant retort is changing the fact of where the ACC Championship is being played tonight, nor will it change the ACC's strategy is about getting into the Northeast, nor will it stop schools from scheduling games in New York. And your Knicks point just shows how much you don't know about New York, and is completely irrelevant to college basketball recruiting in the city (or anywhere else). It's like saying the Dolphins, Bucs, and Jags suckatude reflects on the desirability of prep football players to want to stay in Florida for college.
And you should be aware that St. John's was one of the greatest programs in college basketball history up until it imploded under Jarvis following a team sex scandal and subsequent sanctions in early 2000s. It has struggled ever since Carnesecca has retired and other schools, like Pitt, have taken advantage of the vacuum. Part of its decline coincided with bad coaching hires coupled with the scandals and some institutional decisions that affected its ability to recruit. Another part of it is that it also has fallen way behind in its on-campus facilities. It still is the #8 winningest program in college basketball history by wins and #11 by %. That's better than everyone in the ACC but Carolina, Duke, and Syracuse. For comparison sake, its got a tiny fraction of the athletic money and facilities that Clemson has, and only a shred of the academic reputation, yet unlike Clemson it does have at least two tournament wins this decade, and those are almost exclusively due to the serendipity of its location. However, SJU is not likely to be back in the tourney soon due to the incredible stupidity (at least IMO) of its most recent hire.
CCNY was one of the biggest basketball powers in the first half of the 20th century winning the NIT and NCAA in the same year. They were rocked by a point-shaving scandal in the 1950s and eventually dropped to Division 3. Most of the schools in NYC deemphasized sports after WWII, which is also why you don't see any FBS football teams there.
Seton Hall is a tiny (its got less than 6K total students on lest than 60 acres) Catholic School tucked 40 minutes outside the city and was largely forgettable for most of its history until PJ Carlisemo came to town, and then sucked after he left. The only thing attractive about coaching at that school is that it is near NYC and in the Big East, the latter resulting from the fortuitous circumstance of it having the luck of the Big East's first choices turning it down when the conference formed. The athletic department has even less money than St. John's and it's one of the tougher jobs in high major basketball and is typically a stepping stone if a coach can succeed there. They are just regaining their footing a little under Willard (who, btw, is a Pitt alumnus).
Duke plays in the NYC metro area because that is where a good portion of their student body comes from.
We used to playfully refer to Duke as the University of New Jersey at Durham. It is also where the DOOK comes from. It seems that if you pronounce Duke with a New York/New Jersey accent it comes out DOOK.
I know that is true. The school is using appearance there for recruiting and alumni purposes and hold satellite events that coincide with events. Many schools do that. The NYC metro is an area many schools have significant alumni bases in.
So, do you think the Duke admissions office and alumni association tells Coach K where to schedule these games?
Btw, most out-of-state students at Duke are actually from California, and there are more students from Florida than NJ. But if you combine New York state and New Jersey, that is the largest group. I don't know how that breaks down to NYC metro area, as New York state is pretty big.
(03-11-2017 02:08 PM)CrazyPaco Wrote: [ -> ] (03-11-2017 01:11 PM)ClemVegas Wrote: [ -> ]saying MSG is the 'mecca of basketball' is an opinion , not a fact. you obviously are a NYC superfan.
the big stage is television against ranked teams. as i've pointed out, i believe Greensboro probably has bigger crowds than the crowd in NYC this week.
You're right, it is an opinion. One that is widely shared and spoken to by the basketball media and community in general. It is sort of the basketball equivalent to Carnegie Hall, at least for kids in the northeast. Regardless of the sport, Madison Square Garden is up there with Yankee Stadium, Fenway, Wrigley, Lambeau, Wembley, the Rose Bowl, and Churchill Downs. It's pretty fair to say that its tagline is correct, it is "the world's most famous arena."
The only other facility that might come close in college basketball might be the Palestra, which I think is actually more synonymous with college basketball history than MSG, but it is smaller and a less generally prominent facility overall. After that, you start getting more single team on-campus facilities like Cameron, Hinkle, Rupp, Allen, and Pauley.
I hope Greensboro had bigger crowds. It seats 5,700+ more than Barclays. I'm assuming tickets are sold out at any location except for the Tuesday opening round games.
it is only famous because it is in the largest US city. it has nothing to do with the arena or NYC itself being a basketball mecca.
i don't think the teams that get knocked out of the ACC tournament go to Broadway or any of the tourist stuff. maybe the Statue of Liberty. you can go to a restaurant or bar in any city.
NYC isn't some kind of paradise. i personally would rather play games in a southern location in the winter.
(03-11-2017 11:18 AM)ClemVegas Wrote: [ -> ] (03-11-2017 10:35 AM)nzmorange Wrote: [ -> ](And yes, I know there are southern cities - it's not all one massive farm -, and I know there are some very rural areas up north - especially in NY and PA - but it's just not the same.
I'm arguing w/ a poster who appears to be convinced that the Carolinas are on the same footing as NY in basketball and that Greensboro = NYC. That's like me saying "Syracuse = Greenville (SC) area in football." I wish it was true, but it just isn't.
B
i never said Greensboro = NYC. you are debating a strawman. NYC is obviously much larger metro and will have more recruits. my point is teams don't need to land recruits from NYC to be good and also that there aren't that many great players from NYC. My other point is that simply playing games in NYC does not mean teams will land recruits from NYC, and the ACC doesn't need to play games in NYC to have exposure.
you can't refute any of these arguments
you come across as one of these brash New Yorkers who think the whole world revolves around NYC. get over yourself. if northeast basketball is so great then why did those former BIg East teams leave to join a bunch of universities in the south. lol
[/quote]
Perspective: I grew up in Nashville rooting for Vandy.
If you world view has led you to believe that I don't care or know about southern basketball, I can assure you that your analysis is flawed. Believe me or not, I strongly urge you to consider the possibility that you don't know everything that you don't know.
Like I said in an earlier post, I'm not going to argue on this thread any more (other than posting things that I find light-hearted and humorous and/or general statements like this). It's too hostile as is.
(03-11-2017 02:41 PM)ClemVegas Wrote: [ -> ]i don't think the teams that get knocked out of the ACC tournament go to Broadway or any of the tourist stuff. maybe the Statue of Liberty. you can go to a restaurant or bar in any city.
NYC isn't some kind of paradise. i personally would rather play games in a southern location in the winter.
Absolutely true, it is not some sort of paradise, but it sounds like you've never been to NYC. I understand some fans preference for a setting like Greensboro.
And I will say this, I'd personally prefer it being held in NYC, but if I am taking my senior father, like I did to Greensboro, I'd absolutely prefer it to be held down there.
It isn't about fan convenience or preference though. It is about marketing strategy.
Here's a recent article on it from the Sports Business Daily:
http://www.sportsbusinessdaily.com/Daily...urney.aspx
(03-11-2017 02:48 PM)nzmorange Wrote: [ -> ] (03-11-2017 11:18 AM)ClemVegas Wrote: [ -> ] (03-11-2017 10:35 AM)nzmorange Wrote: [ -> ](And yes, I know there are southern cities - it's not all one massive farm -, and I know there are some very rural areas up north - especially in NY and PA - but it's just not the same.
I'm arguing w/ a poster who appears to be convinced that the Carolinas are on the same footing as NY in basketball and that Greensboro = NYC. That's like me saying "Syracuse = Greenville (SC) area in football." I wish it was true, but it just isn't.
B
i never said Greensboro = NYC. you are debating a strawman. NYC is obviously much larger metro and will have more recruits. my point is teams don't need to land recruits from NYC to be good and also that there aren't that many great players from NYC. My other point is that simply playing games in NYC does not mean teams will land recruits from NYC, and the ACC doesn't need to play games in NYC to have exposure.
you can't refute any of these arguments
you come across as one of these brash New Yorkers who think the whole world revolves around NYC. get over yourself. if northeast basketball is so great then why did those former BIg East teams leave to join a bunch of universities in the south. lol
Perspective: I grew up in Nashville rooting for Vandy.
If you world view has led you to believe that I don't care or know about southern basketball, I can assure you that your analysis is flawed. Believe me or not, I strongly urge you to consider the possibility that you don't know everything that you don't know.
Like I said in an earlier post, I'm not going to argue on this thread any more (other than posting things that I find light-hearted and humorous and/or general statements like this). It's too hostile as is.
[/quote]
i don't care if you don't like care or know about southern basketball, you make wild inferences. i don't care about you at all.
i suggest you consider the fact you don't know what you don't know. you seem to like talking down to people. i dn't see evidence that you know more than I do.
(03-11-2017 02:38 PM)ClemVegas Wrote: [ -> ] (03-11-2017 02:08 PM)CrazyPaco Wrote: [ -> ] (03-11-2017 01:11 PM)ClemVegas Wrote: [ -> ]saying MSG is the 'mecca of basketball' is an opinion , not a fact. you obviously are a NYC superfan.
the big stage is television against ranked teams. as i've pointed out, i believe Greensboro probably has bigger crowds than the crowd in NYC this week.
You're right, it is an opinion. One that is widely shared and spoken to by the basketball media and community in general. It is sort of the basketball equivalent to Carnegie Hall, at least for kids in the northeast. Regardless of the sport, Madison Square Garden is up there with Yankee Stadium, Fenway, Wrigley, Lambeau, Wembley, the Rose Bowl, and Churchill Downs. It's pretty fair to say that its tagline is correct, it is "the world's most famous arena."
The only other facility that might come close in college basketball might be the Palestra, which I think is actually more synonymous with college basketball history than MSG, but it is smaller and a less generally prominent facility overall. After that, you start getting more single team on-campus facilities like Cameron, Hinkle, Rupp, Allen, and Pauley.
I hope Greensboro had bigger crowds. It seats 5,700+ more than Barclays. I'm assuming tickets are sold out at any location except for the Tuesday opening round games.
it is only famous because it is in the largest US city. it has nothing to do with the arena or NYC itself being a basketball mecca.
That's partially true, but you need to learn more about the history of sports in this country.
(03-11-2017 02:48 PM)CrazyPaco Wrote: [ -> ] (03-11-2017 02:41 PM)ClemVegas Wrote: [ -> ]i don't think the teams that get knocked out of the ACC tournament go to Broadway or any of the tourist stuff. maybe the Statue of Liberty. you can go to a restaurant or bar in any city.
NYC isn't some kind of paradise. i personally would rather play games in a southern location in the winter.
Absolutely true, it is not some sort of paradise, but it sounds like you've never been to NYC. I understand some fans preference for a setting like Greensboro.
And I will say this, I'd personally prefer it being held in NYC, but if I am taking my senior father, like I did to Greensboro, I'd absolutely prefer it to be held down there.
It isn't about fan convenience or preference though. It is about marketing strategy.
Here's a recent article on it from the Sports Business Daily: http://www.sportsbusinessdaily.com/Daily...urney.aspx
I have been to NYC. I worked in northern NJ near the Giants stadium for 6 months. you don't even know me but you assert haven't been to NYC. if somebody doesn't gush over NYC, they haven't been to NYC in your view. lol
there is no benefit from a marketing standpoint for the tournament. to be in NYC.. all you do is assert this. that is not evidence. being on television is the marketing.
i don't care if the tournament is in NYC every once in a while. and i'm not dying for it to be in Gboro.
(03-11-2017 02:54 PM)CrazyPaco Wrote: [ -> ] (03-11-2017 02:38 PM)ClemVegas Wrote: [ -> ] (03-11-2017 02:08 PM)CrazyPaco Wrote: [ -> ] (03-11-2017 01:11 PM)ClemVegas Wrote: [ -> ]saying MSG is the 'mecca of basketball' is an opinion , not a fact. you obviously are a NYC superfan.
the big stage is television against ranked teams. as i've pointed out, i believe Greensboro probably has bigger crowds than the crowd in NYC this week.
You're right, it is an opinion. One that is widely shared and spoken to by the basketball media and community in general. It is sort of the basketball equivalent to Carnegie Hall, at least for kids in the northeast. Regardless of the sport, Madison Square Garden is up there with Yankee Stadium, Fenway, Wrigley, Lambeau, Wembley, the Rose Bowl, and Churchill Downs. It's pretty fair to say that its tagline is correct, it is "the world's most famous arena."
The only other facility that might come close in college basketball might be the Palestra, which I think is actually more synonymous with college basketball history than MSG, but it is smaller and a less generally prominent facility overall. After that, you start getting more single team on-campus facilities like Cameron, Hinkle, Rupp, Allen, and Pauley.
I hope Greensboro had bigger crowds. It seats 5,700+ more than Barclays. I'm assuming tickets are sold out at any location except for the Tuesday opening round games.
it is only famous because it is in the largest US city. it has nothing to do with the arena or NYC itself being a basketball mecca.
That's partially true, but you need to learn more about the history of sports in this country.
ok Professor Paco.
i don't think sports is about history. it is a form of entertainment, at best. most bball teams aren't fun to watch though.
(03-11-2017 02:53 PM)ClemVegas Wrote: [ -> ] (03-11-2017 02:48 PM)nzmorange Wrote: [ -> ] (03-11-2017 11:18 AM)ClemVegas Wrote: [ -> ] (03-11-2017 10:35 AM)nzmorange Wrote: [ -> ](And yes, I know there are southern cities - it's not all one massive farm -, and I know there are some very rural areas up north - especially in NY and PA - but it's just not the same.
I'm arguing w/ a poster who appears to be convinced that the Carolinas are on the same footing as NY in basketball and that Greensboro = NYC. That's like me saying "Syracuse = Greenville (SC) area in football." I wish it was true, but it just isn't.
B
i never said Greensboro = NYC. you are debating a strawman. NYC is obviously much larger metro and will have more recruits. my point is teams don't need to land recruits from NYC to be good and also that there aren't that many great players from NYC. My other point is that simply playing games in NYC does not mean teams will land recruits from NYC, and the ACC doesn't need to play games in NYC to have exposure.
you can't refute any of these arguments
you come across as one of these brash New Yorkers who think the whole world revolves around NYC. get over yourself. if northeast basketball is so great then why did those former BIg East teams leave to join a bunch of universities in the south. lol
Perspective: I grew up in Nashville rooting for Vandy.
If you world view has led you to believe that I don't care or know about southern basketball, I can assure you that your analysis is flawed. Believe me or not, I strongly urge you to consider the possibility that you don't know everything that you don't know.
Like I said in an earlier post, I'm not going to argue on this thread any more (other than posting things that I find light-hearted and humorous and/or general statements like this). It's too hostile as is.
i don't care if you don't like care or know about southern basketball, you make wild inferences. i don't care about you at all.
i suggest you consider the fact you don't know what you don't know. you seem to like talking down to people. i dn't see evidence that you know more than I do.
[/quote]
Yup. You're right. Facts and logical arguments be darned.
Small North Carolina towns are exactly equally passionate about basketball as NYC. Greensboro is a huge city. And the tournament should be held in NC every year because, despite the fact that the BET has widely been regarded as a distant best tourney in the land for quite some time, North Carolina is a better place to hold a tourney. The 4! major conference's who hold tourneys in NYC either this year or next are making a mistake because they don't know something that you do. The ACC tourney has always been great and has never been widely regarded as close to an unmitigated snooze fest. The people sleeping at the games were wrong.
High quality recruits don't overwhelmingly live in the city, despite substantial evidence to the contrary. Those recruits apparently live in southern farms and have no desire to play in front of their families. MSG is called the Mecca of Basketball for the heck of it. And I'm one of those southern-hating native Nashvillians who has a blinding NYC bias.
Lastly NYC is not a media hotbed, and reporters don't watch the local news. But nobody has heard of NYC, so there is absolutely no fun in owning a town that has some name cache.
You win. I don't know what I don't know. I'm just some dumb*ss mouthing off because my feeling were hurt when someone told me the truth. The same goes for everyone else who actually lives there and/or has lived there. You know more than we do.
I give. Happy?
(03-11-2017 02:59 PM)ClemVegas Wrote: [ -> ] (03-11-2017 02:54 PM)CrazyPaco Wrote: [ -> ] (03-11-2017 02:38 PM)ClemVegas Wrote: [ -> ] (03-11-2017 02:08 PM)CrazyPaco Wrote: [ -> ] (03-11-2017 01:11 PM)ClemVegas Wrote: [ -> ]saying MSG is the 'mecca of basketball' is an opinion , not a fact. you obviously are a NYC superfan.
the big stage is television against ranked teams. as i've pointed out, i believe Greensboro probably has bigger crowds than the crowd in NYC this week.
You're right, it is an opinion. One that is widely shared and spoken to by the basketball media and community in general. It is sort of the basketball equivalent to Carnegie Hall, at least for kids in the northeast. Regardless of the sport, Madison Square Garden is up there with Yankee Stadium, Fenway, Wrigley, Lambeau, Wembley, the Rose Bowl, and Churchill Downs. It's pretty fair to say that its tagline is correct, it is "the world's most famous arena."
The only other facility that might come close in college basketball might be the Palestra, which I think is actually more synonymous with college basketball history than MSG, but it is smaller and a less generally prominent facility overall. After that, you start getting more single team on-campus facilities like Cameron, Hinkle, Rupp, Allen, and Pauley.
I hope Greensboro had bigger crowds. It seats 5,700+ more than Barclays. I'm assuming tickets are sold out at any location except for the Tuesday opening round games.
it is only famous because it is in the largest US city. it has nothing to do with the arena or NYC itself being a basketball mecca.
That's partially true, but you need to learn more about the history of sports in this country.
ok Professor Paco.
i don't think sports is about history. it is a form of entertainment, at best. most bball teams aren't fun to watch though.
You're the one that tried disputing it's prominence as a sports arena. It is obvious what you think and don't know. MSG has a very rich history in sport, including basketball, hockey, boxing, and track & field.
(03-11-2017 03:07 PM)nzmorange Wrote: [ -> ] (03-11-2017 02:53 PM)ClemVegas Wrote: [ -> ] (03-11-2017 02:48 PM)nzmorange Wrote: [ -> ] (03-11-2017 11:18 AM)ClemVegas Wrote: [ -> ] (03-11-2017 10:35 AM)nzmorange Wrote: [ -> ](And yes, I know there are southern cities - it's not all one massive farm -, and I know there are some very rural areas up north - especially in NY and PA - but it's just not the same.
I'm arguing w/ a poster who appears to be convinced that the Carolinas are on the same footing as NY in basketball and that Greensboro = NYC. That's like me saying "Syracuse = Greenville (SC) area in football." I wish it was true, but it just isn't.
B
i never said Greensboro = NYC. you are debating a strawman. NYC is obviously much larger metro and will have more recruits. my point is teams don't need to land recruits from NYC to be good and also that there aren't that many great players from NYC. My other point is that simply playing games in NYC does not mean teams will land recruits from NYC, and the ACC doesn't need to play games in NYC to have exposure.
you can't refute any of these arguments
you come across as one of these brash New Yorkers who think the whole world revolves around NYC. get over yourself. if northeast basketball is so great then why did those former BIg East teams leave to join a bunch of universities in the south. lol
Perspective: I grew up in Nashville rooting for Vandy.
If you world view has led you to believe that I don't care or know about southern basketball, I can assure you that your analysis is flawed. Believe me or not, I strongly urge you to consider the possibility that you don't know everything that you don't know.
Like I said in an earlier post, I'm not going to argue on this thread any more (other than posting things that I find light-hearted and humorous and/or general statements like this). It's too hostile as is.
i don't care if you don't like care or know about southern basketball, you make wild inferences. i don't care about you at all.
i suggest you consider the fact you don't know what you don't know. you seem to like talking down to people. i dn't see evidence that you know more than I do.
Yup. You're right. Facts and logical arguments be darned.
Small North Carolina towns are exactly equally passionate about basketball as NYC. Greensboro is a huge city. And the tournament should be held in NC every year because, despite the fact that the BET has widely been regarded as a distant best tourney in the land for quite some time, North Carolina is a better place to hold a tourney. The 4! major conference's who hold tourneys in NYC either this year or next are making a mistake because they don't know something that you do. The ACC tourney has always been great and has never been widely regarded as close to an unmitigated snooze fest. The people sleeping at the games were wrong.
High quality recruits don't overwhelmingly live in the city, despite substantial evidence to the contrary. Those recruits apparently live in southern farms and have no desire to play in front of their families. MSG is called the Mecca of Basketball for the heck of it. And I'm one of those southern-hating native Nashvillians who has a blinding NYC bias.
Lastly NYC is not a media hotbed, and reporters don't watch the local news. But nobody has heard of NYC, so there is absolutely no fun in owning a town that has some name cache.
You win. I don't know what I don't know. I'm just some dumb*ss mouthing off because my feeling were hurt when someone told me the truth. The same goes for everyone else who actually lives there and/or has lived there. You know more than we do.
I give. Happy?
[/quote]
ok i'm still waiting for you to list all the great players out of NYC over the years. why don't UNC and Duke have NYC players on their roster.
you don't respond to my arguments.
i've never said nobody has heard of NYC. why say something so silly?
i never said Gboro is a 'huge' city but is in the largest city in a large MSA. i haven't been focused on Gboro in my comments, I've been disagreeing that playing games in NYC helps ACC schools recruit vs playing games in the south.
if playing games in NYC is a bfd for recruits, how is a school in the south going to land them over colleges closer to NYC. that makes no sense.
(03-11-2017 03:07 PM)CrazyPaco Wrote: [ -> ] (03-11-2017 02:59 PM)ClemVegas Wrote: [ -> ] (03-11-2017 02:54 PM)CrazyPaco Wrote: [ -> ] (03-11-2017 02:38 PM)ClemVegas Wrote: [ -> ] (03-11-2017 02:08 PM)CrazyPaco Wrote: [ -> ]You're right, it is an opinion. One that is widely shared and spoken to by the basketball media and community in general. It is sort of the basketball equivalent to Carnegie Hall, at least for kids in the northeast. Regardless of the sport, Madison Square Garden is up there with Yankee Stadium, Fenway, Wrigley, Lambeau, Wembley, the Rose Bowl, and Churchill Downs. It's pretty fair to say that its tagline is correct, it is "the world's most famous arena."
The only other facility that might come close in college basketball might be the Palestra, which I think is actually more synonymous with college basketball history than MSG, but it is smaller and a less generally prominent facility overall. After that, you start getting more single team on-campus facilities like Cameron, Hinkle, Rupp, Allen, and Pauley.
I hope Greensboro had bigger crowds. It seats 5,700+ more than Barclays. I'm assuming tickets are sold out at any location except for the Tuesday opening round games.
it is only famous because it is in the largest US city. it has nothing to do with the arena or NYC itself being a basketball mecca.
That's partially true, but you need to learn more about the history of sports in this country.
ok Professor Paco.
i don't think sports is about history. it is a form of entertainment, at best. most bball teams aren't fun to watch though.
You're the one that tried disputing it's prominence as a sports arena. It is obvious what you think and don't know. MSG has a very rich history in sport, including basketball, hockey, boxing, and track & field.
that doesn't mean that playing the ACC tourney there helps recruit. what does 'history' have to do with my point. it is a red herring. most people in NYC were not at the game. most people who have watched the tourney saw it it tv.
(03-11-2017 02:08 PM)TexanMark Wrote: [ -> ] (03-11-2017 01:54 PM)Lenvillecards Wrote: [ -> ] (03-11-2017 12:55 PM)TexanMark Wrote: [ -> ] (03-11-2017 12:36 PM)Lenvillecards Wrote: [ -> ]I'll tackle the recruiting angle argument here & use an example. 247 #1 overall recruit is Mohamed Bamba who coincidentally is from New York, NY. He is uncommitted & the site lists 23 schools recruiting him, 6 are from the ACC (Duke, FSU, UofL, NC, Syracuse & WF). Being able to tell this recruit that he will be able to come home & play in front of his family & friends can give these ACC teams an edge over the teams that can't, depending on how important that is to him. That also helps diminish that edge would give to the BE schools recruiting him. Having area teams in the ACC also helps. In recruiting you take & use every edge you can get.
As far as to where the ACC tournament should be played, I obviously prefer Louisville but I know that's not happening. If we have to pick one location then I think it should either be NY or DC. If we are keeping a rotation then Greensboro/Charlotte should definitely be in the mix with DC & NY. MSG will always command the stage in NY however. Can Brooklyn match MSG? Perhaps, over time as the ACC tournament proves to be far superior than the BE tournament. The BE at MSG didn't become BE at MSG overnight & neither did the ACC tourney in Greensboro.
Brooklyn to me is like this:
In NYC Baseball there is Yankee Stadium (MSG) and the Mets CitiField (Brooklyn)
Brooklyn is ok but it isn't MSG.
That's true when you compare the stages but what about the actors on the stage? Sooner or later wouldn't the audience choose the show over the stage?
Somewhat...what made MSG awesome was the number of alumni that worked in Manhattan and could make the games. Brooklyn is Brooklyn and a tougher psychological barrier to get there.
The best thing about NYC is you can do other things if your team gets knocked out early...applies to both MSG and Brooklyn.
Other things?
I don't know about you but after 4 basketball games in one day, I ready to go to bed.
Even two games and I am consumed by the tournament. Afternoon games out at 5-5:30, grab a few beers, eat some dinner, get to bed so that I can start all over again.
You do not need to be in a fancy location IF you are there for the Tournament.
(03-11-2017 03:28 PM)XLance Wrote: [ -> ] (03-11-2017 02:08 PM)TexanMark Wrote: [ -> ] (03-11-2017 01:54 PM)Lenvillecards Wrote: [ -> ] (03-11-2017 12:55 PM)TexanMark Wrote: [ -> ] (03-11-2017 12:36 PM)Lenvillecards Wrote: [ -> ]I'll tackle the recruiting angle argument here & use an example. 247 #1 overall recruit is Mohamed Bamba who coincidentally is from New York, NY. He is uncommitted & the site lists 23 schools recruiting him, 6 are from the ACC (Duke, FSU, UofL, NC, Syracuse & WF). Being able to tell this recruit that he will be able to come home & play in front of his family & friends can give these ACC teams an edge over the teams that can't, depending on how important that is to him. That also helps diminish that edge would give to the BE schools recruiting him. Having area teams in the ACC also helps. In recruiting you take & use every edge you can get.
As far as to where the ACC tournament should be played, I obviously prefer Louisville but I know that's not happening. If we have to pick one location then I think it should either be NY or DC. If we are keeping a rotation then Greensboro/Charlotte should definitely be in the mix with DC & NY. MSG will always command the stage in NY however. Can Brooklyn match MSG? Perhaps, over time as the ACC tournament proves to be far superior than the BE tournament. The BE at MSG didn't become BE at MSG overnight & neither did the ACC tourney in Greensboro.
Brooklyn to me is like this:
In NYC Baseball there is Yankee Stadium (MSG) and the Mets CitiField (Brooklyn)
Brooklyn is ok but it isn't MSG.
That's true when you compare the stages but what about the actors on the stage? Sooner or later wouldn't the audience choose the show over the stage?
Somewhat...what made MSG awesome was the number of alumni that worked in Manhattan and could make the games. Brooklyn is Brooklyn and a tougher psychological barrier to get there.
The best thing about NYC is you can do other things if your team gets knocked out early...applies to both MSG and Brooklyn.
Other things?
I don't know about you but after 4 basketball games in one day, I ready to go to bed.
Even two games and I am consumed by the tournament. Afternoon games out at 5-5:30, grab a few beers, eat some dinner, get to bed so that I can start all over again.
You do not need to be in a fancy location IF you are there for the Tournament.
The last two days only have three games total though.
(03-11-2017 03:28 PM)XLance Wrote: [ -> ] (03-11-2017 02:08 PM)TexanMark Wrote: [ -> ] (03-11-2017 01:54 PM)Lenvillecards Wrote: [ -> ] (03-11-2017 12:55 PM)TexanMark Wrote: [ -> ] (03-11-2017 12:36 PM)Lenvillecards Wrote: [ -> ]I'll tackle the recruiting angle argument here & use an example. 247 #1 overall recruit is Mohamed Bamba who coincidentally is from New York, NY. He is uncommitted & the site lists 23 schools recruiting him, 6 are from the ACC (Duke, FSU, UofL, NC, Syracuse & WF). Being able to tell this recruit that he will be able to come home & play in front of his family & friends can give these ACC teams an edge over the teams that can't, depending on how important that is to him. That also helps diminish that edge would give to the BE schools recruiting him. Having area teams in the ACC also helps. In recruiting you take & use every edge you can get.
As far as to where the ACC tournament should be played, I obviously prefer Louisville but I know that's not happening. If we have to pick one location then I think it should either be NY or DC. If we are keeping a rotation then Greensboro/Charlotte should definitely be in the mix with DC & NY. MSG will always command the stage in NY however. Can Brooklyn match MSG? Perhaps, over time as the ACC tournament proves to be far superior than the BE tournament. The BE at MSG didn't become BE at MSG overnight & neither did the ACC tourney in Greensboro.
Brooklyn to me is like this:
In NYC Baseball there is Yankee Stadium (MSG) and the Mets CitiField (Brooklyn)
Brooklyn is ok but it isn't MSG.
That's true when you compare the stages but what about the actors on the stage? Sooner or later wouldn't the audience choose the show over the stage?
Somewhat...what made MSG awesome was the number of alumni that worked in Manhattan and could make the games. Brooklyn is Brooklyn and a tougher psychological barrier to get there.
The best thing about NYC is you can do other things if your team gets knocked out early...applies to both MSG and Brooklyn.
Other things?
I don't know about you but after 4 basketball games in one day, I ready to go to bed.
Even two games and I am consumed by the tournament. Afternoon games out at 5-5:30, grab a few beers, eat some dinner, get to bed so that I can start all over again.
You do not need to be in a fancy location IF you are there for the Tournament.
LOL I hear you...the quadheader is a drain. What I was saying is if you had a strip of tix and your team goes out early...you can resell the strip and do things in a place like NYC.
I did that for the last F4 I went too...Cuse lost to Michigan in the semis in '13...I sold my final game tix and did touristy stuff in ATL and watch the final game at a sports bar. I made enough money off the Final game tix that it drove the cost of the semis down to about $50. I've been to a Championship game before and it isn't worth the price of the tix unless your team is playing. Just my 2 cents.