CSNbbs

Just read somewhere that besides Colorado Springs, the two other finalists in 1954 to get the AFA were Alton, Illinois and Lake Geneva, Wisconsin. What would conferences look like today if either of those schools had won (assuming their athletic history was about the same)? I'm guessing they'd be in the MAC, but depending on how big of a following they received you can't completely rule out something like the AAC. Going independent for football and something like the Horizon for everything else might've made sense too.

The IL and WI locations were in the running, but based on the east coast locations of the other services academies, the Colorado Springs site was always going to win.

They'd be independent. Outside chance at the MAC (especially for Olympic sports) and outside chance at the Patriot with Army and Navy.

I'd probably be more inclined to say that AFA would be a FBS independent if located in the Midwest, as Northern Illinois has not been a continuous member of the MAC, so therefore AFA would have had no natural rival in the MAC. Or perhaps NIU would have not been in the MAC up until the time when the MAC invited Buffalo, which could have affected the timing of adding UCF, Temple and UMass. A MAC with both AFA and NIU probably has UMass in it today.

Out West, the WAC would have needed another school - without AFA joining in 1980, this probably falls on UNLV, who wasn't admitted until 1996. The "Gang of 5" that formed the Mountain West included Air Force, so it's quite possible that the WAC is still around today as a 14-team football league (no Air Force or Tulsa), or if BYU still goes independent, then Tulsa may still have got the nod - or the WAC would have gone to 16 with Utah State or Nevada. It would still be possible the "Gang of 4" breaks off and forms the Mountain West anyway, and just moving down the line to a Fresno State or Nevada as its eighth charter member.

Big West football would have likely died at least a year sooner had the WAC added Tulsa and a 16th school in lieu of Air Force. The Big West only had six football members for 2000, so without a Boise State or Utah State, the Big West would have needed Louisiana Tech, Northeast Louisiana, or Southwest Louisiana. The Sun Belt would have likely started play in 2000 had the Big West collapsed, as it had six I-A members at the time, although one of those was Louisiana Tech; Tech may very well have gone to the WAC then, opening the door for full membership for Northeast Louisiana. Of course if there is no Mountain West, Louisiana Tech may have had to settle for independence or staying in the Sun Belt.


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That's so many dominoes to think about. I'd rather just eat at Domino's.

(07-02-2016 02:52 PM)Love and Honor Wrote: [ -> ]Just read somewhere that besides Colorado Springs, the two other finalists in 1954 to get the AFA were Alton, Illinois and Lake Geneva, Wisconsin. What would conferences look like today if either of those schools had won (assuming their athletic history was about the same)? I'm guessing they'd be in the MAC, but depending on how big of a following they received you can't completely rule out something like the AAC. Going independent for football and something like the Horizon for everything else might've made sense too.

That could be correct, but IIRC Pryor, Oklahoma just East of Tulsa was a finalist.

Alton Illinois is essentially a St. Louis suburb. Probably MVC school, then Metro, and CUSA. AAC today. Memphis, Louisville and Cincinnati would be the rivals more than likely.

(07-02-2016 02:52 PM)Love and Honor Wrote: [ -> ]Just read somewhere that besides Colorado Springs, the two other finalists in 1954 to get the AFA were Alton, Illinois and Lake Geneva, Wisconsin. What would conferences look like today if either of those schools had won (assuming their athletic history was about the same)? I'm guessing they'd be in the MAC, but depending on how big of a following they received you can't completely rule out something like the AAC. Going independent for football and something like the Horizon for everything else might've made sense too.

They would have been shut down because they wouldn't have been able to fly much!

(07-02-2016 11:23 PM)bullet Wrote: [ -> ]

(07-02-2016 02:52 PM)Love and Honor Wrote: [ -> ]Just read somewhere that besides Colorado Springs, the two other finalists in 1954 to get the AFA were Alton, Illinois and Lake Geneva, Wisconsin. What would conferences look like today if either of those schools had won (assuming their athletic history was about the same)? I'm guessing they'd be in the MAC, but depending on how big of a following they received you can't completely rule out something like the AAC. Going independent for football and something like the Horizon for everything else might've made sense too.

They would have been shut down because they wouldn't have been able to fly much!

They would have gravitated to conference affiliation more with Navy and Army. The MAC may have been stronger as a result, but the American still could have reeled them in. Would have introduced college lax and hockey much earlier to that neck of the woods.

UC-Colorado Springs would have been DI decades before.

(07-02-2016 05:05 PM)SMUmustangs Wrote: [ -> ]

(07-02-2016 02:52 PM)Love and Honor Wrote: [ -> ]Just read somewhere that besides Colorado Springs, the two other finalists in 1954 to get the AFA were Alton, Illinois and Lake Geneva, Wisconsin. What would conferences look like today if either of those schools had won (assuming their athletic history was about the same)? I'm guessing they'd be in the MAC, but depending on how big of a following they received you can't completely rule out something like the AAC. Going independent for football and something like the Horizon for everything else might've made sense too.

That could be correct, but IIRC Pryor, Oklahoma just East of Tulsa was a finalist.

That is not correct. Pryor might have been one of the 582 sites investigated but is was not a finalist.

(07-02-2016 11:37 PM)NoDak Wrote: [ -> ]

(07-02-2016 11:23 PM)bullet Wrote: [ -> ]

(07-02-2016 02:52 PM)Love and Honor Wrote: [ -> ]Just read somewhere that besides Colorado Springs, the two other finalists in 1954 to get the AFA were Alton, Illinois and Lake Geneva, Wisconsin. What would conferences look like today if either of those schools had won (assuming their athletic history was about the same)? I'm guessing they'd be in the MAC, but depending on how big of a following they received you can't completely rule out something like the AAC. Going independent for football and something like the Horizon for everything else might've made sense too.

They would have been shut down because they wouldn't have been able to fly much!

They would have gravitated to conference affiliation more with Navy and Army. The MAC may have been stronger as a result, but the American still could have reeled them in. Would have introduced college lax and hockey much earlier to that neck of the woods.

UC-Colorado Springs would have been DI decades before.

Decades before what? UCCS, established in 1964, isn't D1 now and the location of the Air Force Academy doesn't effect that one way or the other. UCCS is one third the size of the other two UC system schools and CSU. It is smaller than RMAC conference mate Metro State and slightly larger than Colorado Mesa.

(07-02-2016 11:37 PM)NoDak Wrote: [ -> ]

(07-02-2016 11:23 PM)bullet Wrote: [ -> ]

(07-02-2016 02:52 PM)Love and Honor Wrote: [ -> ]Just read somewhere that besides Colorado Springs, the two other finalists in 1954 to get the AFA were Alton, Illinois and Lake Geneva, Wisconsin. What would conferences look like today if either of those schools had won (assuming their athletic history was about the same)? I'm guessing they'd be in the MAC, but depending on how big of a following they received you can't completely rule out something like the AAC. Going independent for football and something like the Horizon for everything else might've made sense too.

They would have been shut down because they wouldn't have been able to fly much!

They would have gravitated to conference affiliation more with Navy and Army. The MAC may have been stronger as a result, but the American still could have reeled them in. Would have introduced college lax and hockey much earlier to that neck of the woods.

UC-Colorado Springs would have been DI decades before.

It's an alternate reality, you don't know what else changes. Perhaps the American never comes into existence.

(07-02-2016 03:04 PM)vandiver49 Wrote: [ -> ]The IL and WI locations were in the running, but based on the east coast locations of the other services academies, the Colorado Springs site was always going to win.

Yeah, Cold War fears probably pushed the AFA further west than it may have been otherwise. I'm guessing that Alton came in second since it's farther inland than Lake Geneva, plus it wasn't that far away from McDonnell Douglas (now Boeing defense) and Lambert Airport.

Air Force located in a B1G state wouldn't have been as big of a draw as what it became with a 50,000 seat stadium.

Nor would AFA been as good, reaching as high as #2 in the polls in 1985 and having a consistent presence in the Top 25 for decades.

(07-03-2016 02:55 AM)_C2_ Wrote: [ -> ]

(07-02-2016 11:37 PM)NoDak Wrote: [ -> ]

(07-02-2016 11:23 PM)bullet Wrote: [ -> ]

(07-02-2016 02:52 PM)Love and Honor Wrote: [ -> ]Just read somewhere that besides Colorado Springs, the two other finalists in 1954 to get the AFA were Alton, Illinois and Lake Geneva, Wisconsin. What would conferences look like today if either of those schools had won (assuming their athletic history was about the same)? I'm guessing they'd be in the MAC, but depending on how big of a following they received you can't completely rule out something like the AAC. Going independent for football and something like the Horizon for everything else might've made sense too.

They would have been shut down because they wouldn't have been able to fly much!

They would have gravitated to conference affiliation more with Navy and Army. The MAC may have been stronger as a result, but the American still could have reeled them in. Would have introduced college lax and hockey much earlier to that neck of the woods.

UC-Colorado Springs would have been DI decades before.

It's an alternate reality, you don't know what else changes. Perhaps the American never comes into existence.

Imagine if the realignment of 2010-2014 happens a decade earlier.

1) UConn never gets it chance to move to FBS.
2) Syracuse, Pitt, BC, VT and Miami get added to the ACC all at once.
3) West Virginia and Maryland to the B1G instead of Rutgers.
4) Colorado State and BYU in the B12.

CUSA would then be the AAC with Louisville, Cincinnati, Memphis, TCU possibly going to 14 with Rutgers and Temple.

MWC would have UTEP from the WAC who would never have joined the MWC plus SMU who would have never joined CUSA.

The result may have been that CUSA was elevated to BCS conference status with implications for the development of the CFP and the power conference system.

West Virginia has never had good enough research/academic reputation rankings to be added to the Big Ten.

(07-03-2016 10:07 AM)Kittonhead Wrote: [ -> ]Imagine if the realignment of 2010-2014 happens a decade earlier.

1) UConn never gets it chance to move to FBS.
2) Syracuse, Pitt, BC, VT and Miami get added to the ACC all at once.
3) West Virginia and Maryland to the B1G instead of Rutgers.
4) Colorado State and BYU in the B12.

CUSA would then be the AAC with Louisville, Cincinnati, Memphis, TCU possibly going to 14 with Rutgers and Temple.

MWC would have UTEP from the WAC who would never have joined the MWC plus SMU who would have never joined CUSA.

The result may have been that CUSA was elevated to BCS conference status with implications for the development of the CFP and the power conference system.

If the ACC added the five schools above, and lost Maryland, it would be at 13 for football - my guess is that it would have been either West Virginia (who would never be admitted to the B1G), Cincinnati, or Louisville.

The only question is whether UConn would follow Temple to the A-10, and I think the initial answer is no. Temple and UConn would probably eventually join C-USA.

If the Big 12 lost Nebraska, Colorado, Missouri, and Texas A&M, I think the conference would still want a fourth Texas school to replace Texas A&M. Say hello to TCU, who played the 1996-2000 seasons in the WAC, and 2001-2004 in Conference USA. Again #12 would be a sticking point, but I think Louisville or West Virginia gets the nod - Southern Miss would have likely been considered as well. That probably is the last blow to AQ status for C-USA.

So for 2005:

SEC - same as today
ACC - same as today except WVU instead of Louisville
B1G - same as today
PAC - same as today
XII - same as today except Louisville instead of WVU, and the additions of BYU and Colorado State
Big East - no longer sponsors football
MAC - same as today plus Marshall and Air Force

C-USA
East - Temple, UConn, Cincinnati, UCF, ECU, USF
West - UAB, Southern Miss, Tulane, Houston, SMU, Memphis

Mountain West:
San Diego State, UNLV, Boise State, Fresno State, UTEP, Rice, New Mexico, Wyoming,

WAC - same as 2005 except no Boise State

Sun Belt - same as 2005

Independents - same as 2005 except for Temple in C-USA

WKU football eventually joins the Sun Belt in 2008, followed by South Alabama football in 2012 and Georgia State in 2013. UTSA and Texas State join the WAC in 2012.

UMass, App State, Georgia Southern, Charlotte, and Old Dominion are left without chairs unless if the Sun Belt or C-USA is willing to go to 14.


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(07-03-2016 01:28 AM)lew240z Wrote: [ -> ]

(07-02-2016 05:05 PM)SMUmustangs Wrote: [ -> ]

(07-02-2016 02:52 PM)Love and Honor Wrote: [ -> ]Just read somewhere that besides Colorado Springs, the two other finalists in 1954 to get the AFA were Alton, Illinois and Lake Geneva, Wisconsin. What would conferences look like today if either of those schools had won (assuming their athletic history was about the same)? I'm guessing they'd be in the MAC, but depending on how big of a following they received you can't completely rule out something like the AAC. Going independent for football and something like the Horizon for everything else might've made sense too.

That could be correct, but IIRC Pryor, Oklahoma just East of Tulsa was a finalist.

That is not correct. Pryor might have been one of the 582 sites investigated but is was not a finalist.

I guess you have to define a finalist. I was living in Tulsa at the time and Pryor was definitely in it close to the end. I well remember all the speculation and stories in the newspapers. I do not remember how close they were, but they were definitely not, as you say, just one of the 582 that might have been investigated.

(07-03-2016 09:55 AM)Kittonhead Wrote: [ -> ]Air Force located in a B1G state wouldn't have been as big of a draw as what it became with a 50,000 seat stadium.

Nor would AFA been as good, reaching as high as #2 in the polls in 1985 and having a consistent presence in the Top 25 for decades.

Really? Much of their success in the past came during a time when CU was a very solid program and/or when CSU was also pretty good under Sonny Lubick. Illinois has never been a consistent contender and Northwestern at its peak wasn't as good as CU, plus Alton AFA could've gotten a following from St. Louis since Mizzou didn't make a lot of waves until Pinkel. Lake Geneva AFA is a different story because of UW-Madison, but you can't rule them completely out of the picture either.

Air Force in the past had 3 teams that were in the polls in the past. There were many Air Force bases during the war times been involved in College Football.

Randolph Field in Texas
The Citadel
VMI
Coast Guard
Alameda Coast Guard
Amarillo Field
Camp Grant
Del Monte Pre-Flight
Fort Benning
Fort Riley
Fort Warren
Georgia Pre-Flight
Great Lakes Navy
Iowa Pre-Flight
Jacksonville Naval Air Station
Lubbock Field
March Field
Mare Island Marines
Merchant Marines
Norman Naval Air Station
North Carolina Pre-Flight
Quantico Marines
Saint Mary's, Cal. Pre-Flight
Second Air Force

Only Air Force, Army, Navy, VMI, Citadel, Coast Guard and Merchant Marines from that list still have football. There are others in D3 and JC levels that were never at the top of the top at 1A levels. Two branches of the military are not represented right now at D1 and FBS are the Coast Guards and the Marines.