Besides already being in the club which is all that matters.
National ranked in academics at the least the lowest is 171 I think.
State flagship helps or prestigious private school for the most part.
A long history at the highest level athletically .
A few exceptions exist but there is no small poor academic schools with strong athletics in the club.
I see candidates that are no where near being peers to these schools mentioned why?
Being good at sports is a small piece of the puzzle at the P5 level.
That current member schools want to associate with the new program and that the addition is at least as beneficial to the conference as it is to the potential candidate
(06-01-2016 06:32 AM)vandiver49 Wrote: [ -> ]That current member schools want to associate with the new program and that the addition is at least a beneficial to the conference as it is to the potential candidate
Yup. That's pretty much it. Everything else is just for internet chatter.
Here's a breakdown of the 65 P5 schools:
33 are the flagship university of their state (don't tell me your state legislature has designated five schools as flagships. Except for New York, every state has a single university that is the clear flagship).
13 are land grant universities that are not their state's flagship university.
6 are public urban research universities that are clearly the number 2 (or number 1)public university in their state, in states whose flagship is also their land grant university. (UCLA, Florida St., Pittsburgh, Georgia Tech, Arizona St., and Louisville).
Texas is the only state with three public universities in the P5, with Texas Tech being neither a flagship nor a land grant.
12 are private universities. Each of these is in the USNWR top 100 (TCU is the lowest ranked at #82). Two are in states with no public university in the P5 (Syracuse and BC). Two are in states with only one public university in the P5 (Northwestern and Vanderbilt). Six are in the four most populous states (USC, Stanford, Baylor, TCU, Miami and Syracuse). One is the highest ranked Catholic university in the country (Notre Dame, USNWR #18). Two are in the USNWR top ten (Stanford and Duke). Three others are in the USNWR top twenty (Northwestern, Vanderbilt and Notre Dame). Three others are in the USNWR top thirty (USC, Wake Forest and BC).
The FBS schools outside the P5 that look most like P5 members are: UConn (Flagship), Colorado St. (Land Grant), Cincinnati (Number 2 public university in Ohio - based on research designation, not USNWR ranking), Memphis (Number 2 public university in Tennessee), and UMass (Flagship). Memphis and UMass are hurt by the fact that a private university is occupying their state niche. Any SUNY (New York) school is similarly hurt by Syracuse.
(06-01-2016 07:31 AM)orangefan Wrote: [ -> ]Here's a breakdown of the 65 P5 schools:
6 are public urban research universities that are clearly the number 2 (or number 1)public university in their state, in states whose flagship is also their land grant university.......
......Memphis and UMass are hurt by the fact that a private university is occupying their state niche.......
Memphis not hurt so much because Tennessee is a LONG state (> 6 million people). 400 miles from Memphis to UT - 200 miles to Vanderbilt.
(06-01-2016 07:31 AM)orangefan Wrote: [ -> ]Here's a breakdown of the 65 P5 schools:
33 are the flagship university of their state (don't tell me your state legislature has designated five schools as flagships. Except for New York, every state has a single university that is the clear flagship).
13 are land grant universities that are not their state's flagship university.
6 are public urban research universities that are clearly the number 2 (or number 1)public university in their state, in states whose flagship is also their land grant university. (UCLA, Florida St., Pittsburgh, Georgia Tech, Arizona St., and Louisville).
Texas is the only state with three public universities in the P5, with Texas Tech being neither a flagship nor a land grant.
12 are private universities. Each of these is in the USNWR top 100 (TCU is the lowest ranked at #82). Two are in states with no public university in the P5 (Syracuse and BC). Two are in states with only one public university in the P5 (Northwestern and Vanderbilt). Six are in the four most populous states (USC, Stanford, Baylor, TCU, Miami and Syracuse). One is the highest ranked Catholic university in the country (Notre Dame, USNWR #18). Two are in the USNWR top ten (Stanford and Duke). Three others are in the USNWR top twenty (Northwestern, Vanderbilt and Notre Dame). Three others are in the USNWR top thirty (USC, Wake Forest and BC).
The FBS schools outside the P5 that look most like P5 members are: UConn (Flagship), Colorado St. (Land Grant), Cincinnati (Number 2 public university in Ohio - based on research designation, not USNWR ranking), Memphis (Number 2 public university in Tennessee), and UMass (Flagship). Memphis and UMass are hurt by the fact that a private university is occupying their state niche. Any SUNY (New York) school is similarly hurt by Syracuse.
You left Hawaii and New Mexico out of your last paragraph. Also Nevada, but they don't quite fit the mold as well.
(06-01-2016 08:39 AM)Gray Avenger Wrote: [ -> ] (06-01-2016 07:31 AM)orangefan Wrote: [ -> ]Here's a breakdown of the 65 P5 schools:
6 are public urban research universities that are clearly the number 2 (or number 1)public university in their state, in states whose flagship is also their land grant university.......
......Memphis and UMass are hurt by the fact that a private university is occupying their state niche.......
Memphis not hurt so much because Tennessee is a LONG state (> 6 million people). 400 miles from Memphis to UT - 200 miles to Vanderbilt.
I am not sure if that matters though, because the opposite doesn't seem too. Off the top of my head SF, LA, Raleigh-Durham, and the Chicago metro areas each have more than one P5 school, both in the same conference. In addition, the following P5 schools are within 90 mins of each other but in the same conference: Az/ASU, Mich/MSU, In/Pur, UGA/GT, OU/OK St, Ore/Or St, KU/KSU, and MSU/Ole Miss. In addition UK/Lou and Pitt/WVU fit this bill, but are in separate conferences. That is 29 of the 65 P5 schools. AS few others just missed the cut, for being two hours away (UVA/VT, Io/ISU, ND and several schools). It seems that being close to the secondary school in the state is not a hindrance, so I am not sure if being far away does. If anything there is almost more precedent for the secondary school to be closer to the primary school, then the other way around. Of course that is likely due to the location of population centers within a state, of which it is odd that UT is so far removed from the two most populous cities within the state. So it is just a weird situation I guess.
(06-01-2016 07:31 AM)orangefan Wrote: [ -> ]Here's a breakdown of the 65 P5 schools:
33 are the flagship university of their state (don't tell me your state legislature has designated five schools as flagships. Except for New York, every state has a single university that is the clear flagship).
13 are land grant universities that are not their state's flagship university.
6 are public urban research universities that are clearly the number 2 (or number 1)public university in their state, in states whose flagship is also their land grant university. (UCLA, Florida St., Pittsburgh, Georgia Tech, Arizona St., and Louisville).
Texas is the only state with three public universities in the P5, with Texas Tech being neither a flagship nor a land grant.
12 are private universities. Each of these is in the USNWR top 100 (TCU is the lowest ranked at #82). Two are in states with no public university in the P5 (Syracuse and BC). Two are in states with only one public university in the P5 (Northwestern and Vanderbilt). Six are in the four most populous states (USC, Stanford, Baylor, TCU, Miami and Syracuse). One is the highest ranked Catholic university in the country (Notre Dame, USNWR #18). Two are in the USNWR top ten (Stanford and Duke). Three others are in the USNWR top twenty (Northwestern, Vanderbilt and Notre Dame). Three others are in the USNWR top thirty (USC, Wake Forest and BC).
The FBS schools outside the P5 that look most like P5 members are: UConn (Flagship), Colorado St. (Land Grant), Cincinnati (Number 2 public university in Ohio - based on research designation, not USNWR ranking), Memphis (Number 2 public university in Tennessee), and UMass (Flagship). Memphis and UMass are hurt by the fact that a private university is occupying their state niche. Any SUNY (New York) school is similarly hurt by Syracuse.
There are patterns.
Carnegie research level:
P5 highest 57, high 8
G5 highest 17, high 31, other 16
(note that AAC is 7 of those 17 with 4 high and 1-Navy-other)
USNWR
P5 National ranked universities 65
G5 National ranked universities 32, national >200 18, non-national 14
(AAC is 10 national ranked, 1 > 200 and Navy-liberal arts)
ARWU ranking top 500
P5 56 ranked, 9 unranked
G5 22 ranked, 42 unranked
(AAC is 8 of those 22)
World University top 400
P5 45 ranked, 20 unranked
G5 14 ranked, 50 unranked
(AAC has 6 of those 14)
(06-01-2016 09:11 AM)adcorbett Wrote: [ -> ] (06-01-2016 08:39 AM)Gray Avenger Wrote: [ -> ] (06-01-2016 07:31 AM)orangefan Wrote: [ -> ]Here's a breakdown of the 65 P5 schools:
6 are public urban research universities that are clearly the number 2 (or number 1)public university in their state, in states whose flagship is also their land grant university.......
......Memphis and UMass are hurt by the fact that a private university is occupying their state niche.......
Memphis not hurt so much because Tennessee is a LONG state (> 6 million people). 400 miles from Memphis to UT - 200 miles to Vanderbilt.
I am not sure if that matters though, because the opposite doesn't seem too. Off the top of my head SF, LA, Raleigh-Durham, and the Chicago metro areas each have more than one P5 school, both in the same conference. In addition, the following P5 schools are within 90 mins of each other but in the same conference: Az/ASU, Mich/MSU, In/Pur, UGA/GT, OU/OK St, Ore/Or St, KU/KSU, and MSU/Ole Miss. In addition UK/Lou and Pitt/WVU fit this bill, but are in separate conferences. That is 29 of the 65 P5 schools. AS few others just missed the cut, for being two hours away (UVA/VT, Io/ISU, ND and several schools). It seems that being close to the secondary school in the state is not a hindrance, so I am not sure if being far away does. If anything there is almost more precedent for the secondary school to be closer to the primary school, then the other way around. Of course that is likely due to the location of population centers within a state, of which it is odd that UT is so far removed from the two most populous cities within the state. So it is just a weird situation I guess.
UT was founded in 1876. At that time I believe (I know this was true in 1900) San Antonio, Houston, Galveston and Dallas were all similar sizes. So it was only 80 miles from San Antonio. It all involved politics. Galveston got the medical school and Austin got the university.
(06-01-2016 09:20 AM)bullet Wrote: [ -> ]UT was founded in 1876. At that time I believe (I know this was true in 1900) San Antonio, Houston, Galveston and Dallas were all similar sizes. So it was only 80 miles from San Antonio.
In this scenario, UT=University of Tennessee. We were discussing its location in relation to Memphis
(06-01-2016 07:31 AM)orangefan Wrote: [ -> ]Here's a breakdown of the 65 P5 schools:
6 are public urban research universities that are clearly the number 2 (or number 1)public university in their state, in states whose flagship is also their land grant university. (UCLA, Florida St., Pittsburgh, Georgia Tech, Arizona St., and Louisville).
While this is primarily true (with exceptions like Texas Tech), I don't think comparing a school that is number 2 in their state, that has a population of 5 million is the same thing as a school that is number 2 in a state that has 20 million (FL), 27 million (TX), or 39 million (CA). Apples and oranges. A state that is 5 or 6 times larger that another can obviously handle more high profile universities.
(06-01-2016 07:31 AM)orangefan Wrote: [ -> ]Here's a breakdown of the 65 P5 schools:
33 are the flagship university of their state (don't tell me your state legislature has designated five schools as flagships. Except for New York, every state has a single university that is the clear flagship).
13 are land grant universities that are not their state's flagship university.
6 are public urban research universities that are clearly the number 2 (or number 1)public university in their state, in states whose flagship is also their land grant university. (UCLA, Florida St., Pittsburgh, Georgia Tech, Arizona St., and Louisville).
Texas is the only state with three public universities in the P5, with Texas Tech being neither a flagship nor a land grant.
12 are private universities. Each of these is in the USNWR top 100 (TCU is the lowest ranked at #82). Two are in states with no public university in the P5 (Syracuse and BC). Two are in states with only one public university in the P5 (Northwestern and Vanderbilt). Six are in the four most populous states (USC, Stanford, Baylor, TCU, Miami and Syracuse). One is the highest ranked Catholic university in the country (Notre Dame, USNWR #18). Two are in the USNWR top ten (Stanford and Duke). Three others are in the USNWR top twenty (Northwestern, Vanderbilt and Notre Dame). Three others are in the USNWR top thirty (USC, Wake Forest and BC).
The FBS schools outside the P5 that look most like P5 members are: UConn (Flagship), Colorado St. (Land Grant), Cincinnati (Number 2 public university in Ohio - based on research designation, not USNWR ranking), Memphis (Number 2 public university in Tennessee), and UMass (Flagship). Memphis and UMass are hurt by the fact that a private university is occupying their state niche. Any SUNY (New York) school is similarly hurt by Syracuse.
Great breakdown.
I would add that Rice would fit in well with the top-5 P5 schools (based on USNWR) of Stanford, Duke, Northwestern, Notre Dame, and Vanderbilt. Based on trends in other states, it appears that Texas Tech stole Rice's spot.
Tulane, SMU, and BYU would be in the P5's top-25 (again, based on USNWR), ahead of Baylor and TCU and peers with Syracuse and Miami. But behind the rest of the P5 private institutions.
(06-01-2016 09:40 AM)YNot Wrote: [ -> ] (06-01-2016 07:31 AM)orangefan Wrote: [ -> ]Here's a breakdown of the 65 P5 schools:
33 are the flagship university of their state (don't tell me your state legislature has designated five schools as flagships. Except for New York, every state has a single university that is the clear flagship).
13 are land grant universities that are not their state's flagship university.
6 are public urban research universities that are clearly the number 2 (or number 1)public university in their state, in states whose flagship is also their land grant university. (UCLA, Florida St., Pittsburgh, Georgia Tech, Arizona St., and Louisville).
Texas is the only state with three public universities in the P5, with Texas Tech being neither a flagship nor a land grant.
12 are private universities. Each of these is in the USNWR top 100 (TCU is the lowest ranked at #82). Two are in states with no public university in the P5 (Syracuse and BC). Two are in states with only one public university in the P5 (Northwestern and Vanderbilt). Six are in the four most populous states (USC, Stanford, Baylor, TCU, Miami and Syracuse). One is the highest ranked Catholic university in the country (Notre Dame, USNWR #18). Two are in the USNWR top ten (Stanford and Duke). Three others are in the USNWR top twenty (Northwestern, Vanderbilt and Notre Dame). Three others are in the USNWR top thirty (USC, Wake Forest and BC).
The FBS schools outside the P5 that look most like P5 members are: UConn (Flagship), Colorado St. (Land Grant), Cincinnati (Number 2 public university in Ohio - based on research designation, not USNWR ranking), Memphis (Number 2 public university in Tennessee), and UMass (Flagship). Memphis and UMass are hurt by the fact that a private university is occupying their state niche. Any SUNY (New York) school is similarly hurt by Syracuse.
Great breakdown.
I would add that Rice would fit in well with the top-5 P5 schools (based on USNWR) of Stanford, Duke, Northwestern, Notre Dame, and Vanderbilt. Based on trends in other states, it appears that Texas Tech stole Rice's spot.
Tulane, SMU, and BYU would be in the P5's top-25 (again, based on USNWR), ahead of Baylor and TCU and peers with Syracuse and Miami. But behind the rest of the P5 private institutions.
There is a reason why the same schools are mentioned as possible P5 candidates and orangefan did a great job breaking that down. UConn, Cincy, BYU, and Colorado St. are all very P5 like. Memphis, Houston, USF and UCF clearly have the potential too. SMU and Tulane could easily fit the mold of the private P5 schools.
(06-01-2016 07:31 AM)orangefan Wrote: [ -> ]The FBS schools outside the P5 that look most like P5 members are: UConn (Flagship), Colorado St. (Land Grant), Cincinnati (Number 2 public university in Ohio - based on research designation, not USNWR ranking), Memphis (Number 2 public university in Tennessee), and UMass (Flagship). Memphis and UMass are hurt by the fact that a private university is occupying their state niche. Any SUNY (New York) school is similarly hurt by Syracuse.
Wouldn't university presidents and other academic types consider Miami of Ohio the #2 public university in Ohio?
AAU Buffalo should get more consideration, especially in the fourth largest state - that has only one P5 member.
Memphis isn't really anywhere on the academic radar. It's not even a peer with Oregon St., Washington St., Oklahoma St., or Kansas St. May be peers with Louisville or Texas Tech?
(06-01-2016 08:47 AM)bullet Wrote: [ -> ] (06-01-2016 07:31 AM)orangefan Wrote: [ -> ]The FBS schools outside the P5 that look most like P5 members are: UConn (Flagship), Colorado St. (Land Grant), Cincinnati (Number 2 public university in Ohio - based on research designation, not USNWR ranking), Memphis (Number 2 public university in Tennessee), and UMass (Flagship). Memphis and UMass are hurt by the fact that a private university is occupying their state niche. Any SUNY (New York) school is similarly hurt by Syracuse.
You left Hawaii and New Mexico out of your last paragraph. Also Nevada, but they don't quite fit the mold as well.
Don't forget Wyoming! They fit well with Hawaii, New Mexico, and Nevada - which is a big step behind the P5 flagships.
(06-01-2016 10:03 AM)YNot Wrote: [ -> ] (06-01-2016 08:47 AM)bullet Wrote: [ -> ] (06-01-2016 07:31 AM)orangefan Wrote: [ -> ]The FBS schools outside the P5 that look most like P5 members are: UConn (Flagship), Colorado St. (Land Grant), Cincinnati (Number 2 public university in Ohio - based on research designation, not USNWR ranking), Memphis (Number 2 public university in Tennessee), and UMass (Flagship). Memphis and UMass are hurt by the fact that a private university is occupying their state niche. Any SUNY (New York) school is similarly hurt by Syracuse.
You left Hawaii and New Mexico out of your last paragraph. Also Nevada, but they don't quite fit the mold as well.
Don't forget Wyoming! They fit well with Hawaii, New Mexico, and Nevada - which is a big step behind the P5 flagships.
Maybe since they're all so similar, they could team up in a conference! They could add other P-5 like schools in the area like Colorado State, Boise State and maybe even Air Force would join???
(06-01-2016 10:00 AM)YNot Wrote: [ -> ] (06-01-2016 07:31 AM)orangefan Wrote: [ -> ]The FBS schools outside the P5 that look most like P5 members are: UConn (Flagship), Colorado St. (Land Grant), Cincinnati (Number 2 public university in Ohio - based on research designation, not USNWR ranking), Memphis (Number 2 public university in Tennessee), and UMass (Flagship). Memphis and UMass are hurt by the fact that a private university is occupying their state niche. Any SUNY (New York) school is similarly hurt by Syracuse.
Wouldn't university presidents and other academic types consider Miami of Ohio the #2 public university in Ohio?
AAU Buffalo should get more consideration, especially in the fourth largest state - that has only one P5 member.
Memphis isn't really anywhere on the academic radar. It's not even a peer with Oregon St., Washington St., Oklahoma St., or Kansas St. May be peers with Louisville or Texas Tech?
Based on research designation- no.
(06-01-2016 10:03 AM)YNot Wrote: [ -> ] (06-01-2016 08:47 AM)bullet Wrote: [ -> ] (06-01-2016 07:31 AM)orangefan Wrote: [ -> ]The FBS schools outside the P5 that look most like P5 members are: UConn (Flagship), Colorado St. (Land Grant), Cincinnati (Number 2 public university in Ohio - based on research designation, not USNWR ranking), Memphis (Number 2 public university in Tennessee), and UMass (Flagship). Memphis and UMass are hurt by the fact that a private university is occupying their state niche. Any SUNY (New York) school is similarly hurt by Syracuse.
You left Hawaii and New Mexico out of your last paragraph. Also Nevada, but they don't quite fit the mold as well.
Don't forget Wyoming! They fit well with Hawaii, New Mexico, and Nevada - which is a big step behind the P5 flagships.
What about Delaware, Rhode Island, Maine, and New Hampshire? Plus of course there is Alaska.
