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Since the question about weather the number of MBB players leaving the program is normal or not keeps coming up, and since I was bored, I took some time to compile a list. I think this is complete, although I may have missed a walkon or two. I have a spreadsheet with more complete info but, here's a summary. Let me know if there are any errors. (I know I need to get a life.)

Players inherited from Cross (14):
Completed Eligibility: 1 (Anyijong)
Dismissed: 1 (Lo)
Left Team: 2 (Russell, Shunnar)
Transferred: 8 (Barnett, Bastfield, Dressler, Freelove, Griffin, Humes, Salter, Watson)
Unknown, presumably just left: 2 (Rhoner, Rodriguez)

Kowalcyk Players (42)
Completed Eligibility: 11 (Beatty, Boothe, Brown, Buckley, Drummond, Ewing, Pearson, Schwiebert, Smith, Weatherspoon, Wright)
Still with Team: 9 (Adway, Garber, John Jr, Knapke, Lauf, Navigato, Sanford, Taylor, J Williams)
Dismissed: 1 (Hall)
Never Played: 2 (Speicher, Stokes)
Left Team: 3 (Holiday, Rice, Wonnell)
Medically Ineligible: 1 (Moss)
Transferred: 15 (Aparicio, Applewhite, Chadwell, Dear, Dennis, Leahy, Lemons, Majerle, Mathew, Mosely, Riddle, Rogers, Thomas, White, A Williams)

Some players overlap categories. I.e. Applewhite transferred out, but also never played a game. Holiday left, but ended up later playing at UMKC, so is that a delayed transfer, etc.
(04-09-2016 07:29 AM)northcoastRocket Wrote: [ -> ]Since the question about weather the number of MBB players leaving the program is normal or not keeps coming up, and since I was bored, I took some time to compile a list. I think this is complete, although I may have missed a walkon or two. I have a spreadsheet with more complete info but, here's a summary. Let me know if there are any errors. (I know I need to get a life.)

Players inherited from Cross (14):
Completed Eligibility: 1 (Anyijong)
Dismissed: 1 (Lo)
Left Team: 2 (Russell, Shunnar)
Transferred: 8 (Barnett, Bastfield, Dressler, Freelove, Griffin, Humes, Salter, Watson)
Unknown, presumably just left: 2 (Rhoner, Rodriguez)

Kowalcyk Players (42)
Completed Eligibility: 11 (Beatty, Boothe, Brown, Buckley, Drummond, Ewing, Pearson, Schwiebert, Smith, Weatherspoon, Wright)
Still with Team: 9 (Adway, Garber, John Jr, Knapke, Lauf, Navigato, Sanford, Taylor, J Williams)
Dismissed: 1 (Hall)
Never Played: 2 (Speicher, Stokes)
Left Team: 3 (Holiday, Rice, Wonnell)
Medically Ineligible: 1 (Moss)
Transferred: 15 (Aparicio, Applewhite, Chadwell, Dear, Dennis, Leahy, Lemons, Majerle, Mathew, Mosely, Riddle, Rogers, Thomas, White, A Williams)

Some players overlap categories. I.e. Applewhite transferred out, but also never played a game. Holiday left, but ended up later playing at UMKC, so is that a delayed transfer, etc.

Thanks for all the work. 23 transfers and two dismissals in 6 years at UT. I think Russell (Start HS) was kicked off too, but transferred to Bethune-Cookman?? and left there too.
Next year we will almost certainly exceed the total four year graduates of all six of TK's years. JJ, Lauf and Garber comprise a solid, but unspectacular class. We've already lost all of last year's class. It would be interesting to compare these numbers to the women's team (hint, hint, NCR) to see if Midnight Blue is correct and this IS a Toledo problem. 03-wink
The fair comparison would be to other men's programs wouldn't it? Even a quick google on number of men's transfers fills the page with articles of the concern in men's basketball and using Cross' numbers or any coach change numbers to me, doesn't seem representative. think you're always going to find a spike there.

Quote:•That said, about 40% of all MBB players who enter Division I directly out of high school depart their initial school by the end of their sophomore year.
Transfer Rates in Men's Basketball

BY SOPHOMORE YEAR

It may be a Toledo problem but as noted, it doesn't seem to be uniquely a Toledo problem.
(04-09-2016 08:09 AM)DetroitRocket Wrote: [ -> ]Thanks for all the work. 23 transfers and two dismissals in 6 years at UT. I think Russell (Start HS) was kicked off too, but transferred to Bethune-Cookman?? and left there too.

I can't find any evidence that Russell went anywhere else after leaving UT, but maybe he did. Bethune is where Delino Dear landed though.
(04-09-2016 08:18 AM)H2Oville Rocket Wrote: [ -> ]Next year we will almost certainly exceed the total four year graduates of all six of TK's years. JJ, Lauf and Garber comprise a solid, but unspectacular class. We've already lost all of last year's class. It would be interesting to compare these numbers to the women's team (hint, hint, NCR) to see if Midnight Blue is correct and this IS a Toledo problem. 03-wink

Yeah, yeah, yeah ... more work for the dude without a life ... I see how this works 07-coffee3 07-coffee3 07-coffee3

At any rate, I have most of the data on the WBB players, I just need to compile it into the same format. I can tell you in advance though it's a lot less transfers under Cullop than the 23 above. I'll see what I can do.
One other interesting note (maybe) is that of the 11 Coach K players who completed their eligibility, the average number of seasons played at UT was only 2.3. 3 were walkons, 5 transfers, 1 graduate transfer, and 2 were HS recruits (Brown & Boothe). As H2O said, that should go up a lot this year when Williams, Garber and Lauf complete their 4th years.
(04-09-2016 09:07 AM)northcoastRocket Wrote: [ -> ]One other interesting note (maybe) is that of the 11 Coach K players who completed their eligibility, the average number of seasons played at UT was only 2.3. 3 were walkons, 5 transfers, 1 graduate transfer, and 2 were HS recruits (Brown & Boothe). As H2O said, that should go up a lot this year when Williams, Garber and Lauf complete their 4th years.

2.3 and the stat I quoted states NCAA overall, 40% leaving after just 2 years. Not uniquely a Toledo problem. If anything, Coach K may be a bit ahead particularly considering the number of transfers after the coaching change.
(04-09-2016 09:27 AM)eastisbest Wrote: [ -> ]
(04-09-2016 09:07 AM)northcoastRocket Wrote: [ -> ]One other interesting note (maybe) is that of the 11 Coach K players who completed their eligibility, the average number of seasons played at UT was only 2.3. 3 were walkons, 5 transfers, 1 graduate transfer, and 2 were HS recruits (Brown & Boothe). As H2O said, that should go up a lot this year when Williams, Garber and Lauf complete their 4th years.

2.3 and the stat I quoted states NCAA overall, 40% leaving after just 2 years. Not uniquely a Toledo problem. If anything, Coach K may be a bit ahead particularly considering the number of transfers after the coaching change.

2.3 was for just the players who finished at UT. For all of the players Coach K brought in (excluding those still with the team) the average is 1.5. Strangely, it's also 1.5 if you include the players still on the team.

Just to be clear, I'm not trying to argue one way or the other whether this is a UT/Kowalcyk problem or a systemic MBB problem. Just trying to provide data.
(04-09-2016 08:18 AM)H2Oville Rocket Wrote: [ -> ]Next year we will almost certainly exceed the total four year graduates of all six of TK's years. JJ, Lauf and Garber comprise a solid, but unspectacular class. We've already lost all of last year's class. It would be interesting to compare these numbers to the women's team (hint, hint, NCR) to see if Midnight Blue is correct and this IS a Toledo problem. 03-wink

One significant difference between men's and women's basketball is that women's teams can give 15 scholarships, which means two additional players who don't get playing time, which you would think would lead to more transfers. Our women's team often does not fill all the scholarships, but still the number of scholarship players rostered ever year is generally more than the men's team.
Russell lived near me and he transferred 1st to Bethune Cookman and then to Tiffin but never stuck anywhere. Last thing I heard he was attending classes at UT.
Russell was a terrific rebounder, kind of a Dennis Rodman type. Too bad he did not have the right attitude and determination to become up a top player.
Here's a slight update for the MBB numbers. The number in [brackets] is the number of seasons played under Coach K by that player. Played, doesn't mean they saw the court, just that they were on the team and not redshirted or sitting out as a transfer. Halves are needed, because there were a number of mid-season transfers in/out. Also listed the average number of seasons played, sorted various ways.

6 Seasons as Coach

Players inherited from Cross (14):
Completed Eligibility: 1 (Anyijong [1])
Dismissed: 1 (Lo [0])
Left Team: 2 (Russell [0], Shunnar [1])
Transferred: 8 (Barnett [0], Bastfield [0], Dressler [0], Freelove [0], Griffin [0], Humes [1], Salter [0], Watson [0])
Unknown, presumably just left: 2 (Rhoner [0], Rodriguez [0])

Kowalcyk Players (42):
Completed Eligibility: 11 (Beatty [1], Boothe [4], Brown [4], Buckley [2], Drummond [2], Ewing [3], Pearson [3], Schwiebert [1], Smith [3], Weatherspoon [2], Wright [1])
Still with Team: 9 (Adway [1], Garber [3], John Jr [1], Knapke [0], Lauf [3], Navigato [1], Sanford [1], Taylor [0], J Williams [3])
Dismissed: 1 (Hall [1])
Never Played: 2 (Speicher [0], Stokes [0])
Left Team: 3 (Holiday [3], Rice [1], Wonnell [3])
Medically Ineligible: 1 (Moss [0])
Transferred: 15 (Aparicio [1.5], Applewhite [0], Chadwell [1], Dear [2.5], Dennis [0.5], Leahy [1], Lemons [1], Majerle [0.5], Mathew [1.5], Mosely [2], Riddle [1], Rogers [1], Thomas [1], White [1], A Williams [2])

Average Seasons Played, Kowalcyk Players:

Those Who Completed Eligibility: 2.3
All Players Not Still on Team: 1.5
All Players 1.5
And here are the equivalent numbers for WBB. Same rules as above. Again, please let me know if you see any errors.

8 Seasons as Coach.

Players inherited from Ehlen (7):
Completed Eligibility: 5 (Campo [1], Clifton [2], Goodall [3], Johnson [2], Williams [3])
Transferred: 2 (Aubry [2], Heistan [2])

Cullop Players (41):
Completed Eligibility: 14 (Baumgartner [2], Capotosto [4], Dortch [4], Harris [2], Ingersoll [4], Jones [3], Linn [2], Mayes [2], McCormick [4], Reed-Lewis [4], Richarson [4], Shafir [4], Smith [4], Zanoguera [4])
Still with Team: 10 (Boyd [1], Bravo-Harriott [2], Evans [1], McIntyre [1], Monakana [3], Printz [1], Rassmussen [2], Reecher [3], St Fort [1], Woody [2])
Dismissed: 2 (Carver [1], Wells [0])
Left Team: 1 (Clark [0.5])
Medically Ineligible: 3 (Carson [2], Kessler [1.5], Recker [3])
Transferred: 10 (Baker [1], Braun [2], de Alfredo [2], Dorr [1], Gibson [2], Hayes [1], Lee [1], Nunn [1], Sonka [1], Wasson [1])
Unknown, persumably just left: 1 (Pitts [1])

Average Seasons Played, Cullop Players:
Those Who Completed Eligibility: 3.3
All Players Not Still on Team: 2.2
All Players 2.1

Note that for the players whose careers ended for medical reasons, Carson and Recker finished out their eduation at UT. Kessler says she plans to do that too.
(04-09-2016 09:48 AM)northcoastRocket Wrote: [ -> ]
(04-09-2016 09:27 AM)eastisbest Wrote: [ -> ]
(04-09-2016 09:07 AM)northcoastRocket Wrote: [ -> ]One other interesting note (maybe) is that of the 11 Coach K players who completed their eligibility, the average number of seasons played at UT was only 2.3. 3 were walkons, 5 transfers, 1 graduate transfer, and 2 were HS recruits (Brown & Boothe). As H2O said, that should go up a lot this year when Williams, Garber and Lauf complete their 4th years.

2.3 and the stat I quoted states NCAA overall, 40% leaving after just 2 years. Not uniquely a Toledo problem. If anything, Coach K may be a bit ahead particularly considering the number of transfers after the coaching change.

2.3 was for just the players who finished at UT. For all of the players Coach K brought in (excluding those still with the team) the average is 1.5. Strangely, it's also 1.5 if you include the players still on the team.

Just to be clear, I'm not trying to argue one way or the other whether this is a UT/Kowalcyk problem or a systemic MBB problem. Just trying to provide data.

Yes it's clear. Numbers need context and since the question is whether there is a problem unique to Toledo, I hope the other numbers provide that context for the discussion.
(04-09-2016 10:02 AM)Dwight Wrote: [ -> ]
(04-09-2016 08:18 AM)H2Oville Rocket Wrote: [ -> ]Next year we will almost certainly exceed the total four year graduates of all six of TK's years. JJ, Lauf and Garber comprise a solid, but unspectacular class. We've already lost all of last year's class. It would be interesting to compare these numbers to the women's team (hint, hint, NCR) to see if Midnight Blue is correct and this IS a Toledo problem. 03-wink

One significant difference between men's and women's basketball is that women's teams can give 15 scholarships, which means two additional players who don't get playing time, which you would think would lead to more transfers. Our women's team often does not fill all the scholarships, but still the number of scholarship players rostered ever year is generally more than the men's team.

Possibly different sets of reasons behind men's and women's transfers other than playing time or that makes playing time more pertinent? Academics? Post college potential or desire for a career in basketball? Suitable programs in which to transfer to?
(04-09-2016 08:18 AM)H2Oville Rocket Wrote: [ -> ]Next year we will almost certainly exceed the total four year graduates of all six of TK's years. JJ, Lauf and Garber comprise a solid, but unspectacular class. We've already lost all of last year's class.

Graduating only two 4-year players in his 6 years here is not a lot, but it sounds much worse at first glance than it actually is once you consider that he would have to have been here four of those six years in order to graduate any 4-year player so really we are only considering two of his six years here when looking at that metric.
(04-09-2016 01:35 PM)T-Town Wrote: [ -> ]
(04-09-2016 08:18 AM)H2Oville Rocket Wrote: [ -> ]Next year we will almost certainly exceed the total four year graduates of all six of TK's years. JJ, Lauf and Garber comprise a solid, but unspectacular class. We've already lost all of last year's class.

Graduating only two 4-year players in his 6 years here is not a lot, but it sounds much worse at first glance than it actually is once you consider that he would have to have been here four of those six years in order to graduate any 4-year player so really we are only considering two of his six years here when looking at that metric.
This is a lame thread guys transfer all the time from everywhere because hey want to play and they don't figure it is that much of a difference of where they get their degree from if they get to play. That is the way it is in the 21st century get over it.
(04-09-2016 02:33 PM)rocketpaul Wrote: [ -> ]
(04-09-2016 01:35 PM)T-Town Wrote: [ -> ]
(04-09-2016 08:18 AM)H2Oville Rocket Wrote: [ -> ]Next year we will almost certainly exceed the total four year graduates of all six of TK's years. JJ, Lauf and Garber comprise a solid, but unspectacular class. We've already lost all of last year's class.

Graduating only two 4-year players in his 6 years here is not a lot, but it sounds much worse at first glance than it actually is once you consider that he would have to have been here four of those six years in order to graduate any 4-year player so really we are only considering two of his six years here when looking at that metric.
This is a lame thread guys transfer all the time from everywhere because hey want to play and they don't figure it is that much of a difference of where they get their degree from if they get to play. That is the way it is in the 21st century get over it.

Judging by the amount of attention the thread is getting, I'd say that a lot of people disagree with you that the thread is lame.
(04-09-2016 02:33 PM)rocketpaul Wrote: [ -> ]
(04-09-2016 01:35 PM)T-Town Wrote: [ -> ]
(04-09-2016 08:18 AM)H2Oville Rocket Wrote: [ -> ]Next year we will almost certainly exceed the total four year graduates of all six of TK's years. JJ, Lauf and Garber comprise a solid, but unspectacular class. We've already lost all of last year's class.

Graduating only two 4-year players in his 6 years here is not a lot, but it sounds much worse at first glance than it actually is once you consider that he would have to have been here four of those six years in order to graduate any 4-year player so really we are only considering two of his six years here when looking at that metric.
This is a lame thread guys transfer all the time from everywhere because hey want to play and they don't figure it is that much of a difference of where they get their degree from if they get to play. That is the way it is in the 21st century get over it.

It's the off-season. I await your scintillating topics that will hold all our interest until football starts. Annnnnd....Begin!
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