I mentioned at the end of last year that I thought it was time for a change at the helm and was several refuted me strongly and said this year was going to be a great year. This has the look of a Bobby Bowden/Joe Paterno/Mack Brown ending. I have not seen the team play this year, but it seems things are not headed in the right direction. The team has been trending downward over the last 5 years or so and it looks like we will be taking an even bigger dip this year.
These situations are always hard, but it does not look good right now.
(02-29-2016 10:00 AM)AggieOwl01 Wrote: [ -> ]I mentioned at the end of last year that I thought it was time for a change at the helm and was several refuted me strongly and said this year was going to be a great year. This has the look of a Bobby Bowden/Joe Paterno/Mack Brown ending. I have not seen the team play this year, but it seems things are not headed in the right direction. The team has been trending downward over the last 5 years or so and it looks like we will be taking an even bigger dip this year.
These situations are always hard, but it does not look good right now.
I fear you are correct. Though I'd not use Joe Pa as an example...
(02-29-2016 10:04 AM)JustAnotherAustinOwl Wrote: [ -> ] (02-29-2016 10:00 AM)AggieOwl01 Wrote: [ -> ]I mentioned at the end of last year that I thought it was time for a change at the helm and was several refuted me strongly and said this year was going to be a great year. This has the look of a Bobby Bowden/Joe Paterno/Mack Brown ending. I have not seen the team play this year, but it seems things are not headed in the right direction. The team has been trending downward over the last 5 years or so and it looks like we will be taking an even bigger dip this year.
These situations are always hard, but it does not look good right now.
I fear you are correct. Though I'd not use Joe Pa as an example...
I think a change would be beneficial, but I also think that we owe WG an incalculable debt and that he should be the one to decide when it is time.
I think WG is just as good a coach as he was in 2003.
The kids he is coaching are not as good as the ones back then.
The problem is the financial aid stuff we have been discussing. That won't change with a new coach.
(02-29-2016 10:19 AM)Ranger Wrote: [ -> ] (02-29-2016 10:04 AM)JustAnotherAustinOwl Wrote: [ -> ] (02-29-2016 10:00 AM)AggieOwl01 Wrote: [ -> ]I mentioned at the end of last year that I thought it was time for a change at the helm and was several refuted me strongly and said this year was going to be a great year. This has the look of a Bobby Bowden/Joe Paterno/Mack Brown ending. I have not seen the team play this year, but it seems things are not headed in the right direction. The team has been trending downward over the last 5 years or so and it looks like we will be taking an even bigger dip this year.
These situations are always hard, but it does not look good right now.
I fear you are correct. Though I'd not use Joe Pa as an example...
I think a change would be beneficial, but I also think that we owe WG an incalculable debt and that he should be the one to decide when it is time.
Then we are looking at 10 years if the Mark Berman story is correct.
(02-29-2016 10:38 AM)OptimisticOwl Wrote: [ -> ]I think WG is just as good a coach as he was in 2003.
The kids he is coaching are not as good as the ones back then.
The problem is the financial aid stuff we have been discussing. That won't change with a new coach.
It is a problem but to imply that it would solve everything is disingenuous. Somehow I doubt Fullerton fully funds all of their scholarships via academic aid, or LaLa, or many other quality programs. What is Baylor's problem then? They certainly are rolling in B12 money and have the means to academically fund their team. Perhaps our evaluation of prospects isn't as good as it once was.
(02-29-2016 10:38 AM)OptimisticOwl Wrote: [ -> ]I think WG is just as good a coach as he was in 2003.
The kids he is coaching are not as good as the ones back then.
The problem is the financial aid stuff we have been discussing. That won't change with a new coach.
It's not just the financial aid issue. Kids would rather play at UT or TCU than at Rice which is troubling because these Houston kids grew up when Rice was a powerhouse. I think that means there are some other issues besides financial aid going on. Recently heard of an area commit who wanted to go to UT but is committed to Rice because UT didn't want him....
I know it's partly luck for the top guys but more and more are choosing college and that should be a benefit to programs like us. However we haven't had a kid like that since Rendon and he wasn't the HS player of the year like Luken Baker for TCU who wrote a letter to MLB clubs saying he wanted to play college ball there. You can't tell me that's a financial aid decision.
(02-29-2016 10:44 AM)Tiki Owl Wrote: [ -> ] (02-29-2016 10:38 AM)OptimisticOwl Wrote: [ -> ]I think WG is just as good a coach as he was in 2003.
The kids he is coaching are not as good as the ones back then.
The problem is the financial aid stuff we have been discussing. That won't change with a new coach.
It is a problem but to imply that it would solve everything is disingenuous. Somehow I doubt Fullerton fully funds all of their scholarships via academic aid, or LaLa, or many other quality programs. What is Baylor's problem then? They certainly are rolling in B12 money and have the means to academically fund their team. Perhaps our evaluation of prospects isn't as good as it once was.
Right. Our players aren't good enough. But why? Are we missing on most players we want? If so, why? Funding seems to be part of the problem. What else is happening out there on the recruiting trail? Why do kids not want to come here (if that is what is happening)?
Or does evaluation need to be looked at as well: are we choosing our guys over others...and why? Development of players once they are here also seems to be an issue, especially with position players. I can't remember too many hitters in recent years who were much better when they left than they were when they got here.
The whole program needs to be closely examined. The status quo isn't working. Our poor conference has been masking some of the problems for years now, but I fear this is the year we will miss the NCAA tournament altogether.
I'm more concerned by the fact that we are playing undisciplined baseball. The fielding over the past few years has been ghastly; the mental mistakes almost to the level of the Football program.
We aren't playing to the level of the talent we have. We need to fix that first, then worry about getting better talent.
(02-29-2016 11:15 AM)Antarius Wrote: [ -> ]I'm more concerned by the fact that we are playing undisciplined baseball. The fielding over the past few years has been ghastly; the mental mistakes almost to the level of the Football program.
We aren't playing to the level of the talent we have. We need to fix that first, then worry about getting better talent.
Almost? The number of errors we are seeing in baseball is horrendous. Last time I checked we are worse than 250th in the country for fielding and that was before our midweek debacles (another 5 errors).
We know you can't look at football objectively because of the coach but at least compare the players mistakes the same. You could even argue the baseball coaching decisions are worse than the football ones so far this year with the questionable bunts and pitching decisions.
(02-29-2016 11:36 AM)cr11owl Wrote: [ -> ] (02-29-2016 11:15 AM)Antarius Wrote: [ -> ]I'm more concerned by the fact that we are playing undisciplined baseball. The fielding over the past few years has been ghastly; the mental mistakes almost to the level of the Football program.
We aren't playing to the level of the talent we have. We need to fix that first, then worry about getting better talent.
Almost? The number of errors we are seeing in baseball is horrendous. Last time I checked we are worse than 250th in the country for fielding and that was before our midweek debacles (another 5 errors).
We know you can't look at football objectively because of the coach but at least compare the players mistakes the same. You could even argue the baseball coaching decisions are worse than the football ones so far this year with the questionable bunts and pitching decisions.
We have 10 years of this in Football. Less in Baseball. So yeah, almost. Regardless, I'm not interested in a measuring contest of bad vs worse. Both are appalling right now.
As for the second point (bolded), no argument there.
(02-29-2016 11:42 AM)Antarius Wrote: [ -> ] (02-29-2016 11:36 AM)cr11owl Wrote: [ -> ] (02-29-2016 11:15 AM)Antarius Wrote: [ -> ]I'm more concerned by the fact that we are playing undisciplined baseball. The fielding over the past few years has been ghastly; the mental mistakes almost to the level of the Football program.
We aren't playing to the level of the talent we have. We need to fix that first, then worry about getting better talent.
Almost? The number of errors we are seeing in baseball is horrendous. Last time I checked we are worse than 250th in the country for fielding and that was before our midweek debacles (another 5 errors).
We know you can't look at football objectively because of the coach but at least compare the players mistakes the same. You could even argue the baseball coaching decisions are worse than the football ones so far this year with the questionable bunts and pitching decisions.
We have 10 years of this in Football. Less in Baseball. So yeah, almost. Regardless, I'm not interested in a measuring contest of bad vs worse. Both are appalling right now.
As for the second point (bolded), no argument there.
Then stop making comparisons...
(02-29-2016 10:49 AM)cr11owl Wrote: [ -> ] (02-29-2016 10:38 AM)OptimisticOwl Wrote: [ -> ]I think WG is just as good a coach as he was in 2003.
The kids he is coaching are not as good as the ones back then.
The problem is the financial aid stuff we have been discussing. That won't change with a new coach.
It's not just the financial aid issue. Kids would rather play at UT or TCU than at Rice which is troubling because these Houston kids grew up when Rice was a powerhouse. I think that means there are some other issues besides financial aid going on. Recently heard of an area commit who wanted to go to UT but is committed to Rice because UT didn't want him....
I know it's partly luck for the top guys but more and more are choosing college and that should be a benefit to programs like us. However we haven't had a kid like that since Rendon and he wasn't the HS player of the year like Luken Baker for TCU who wrote a letter to MLB clubs saying he wanted to play college ball there. You can't tell me that's a financial aid decision.
Berkman wasn't recruited by UT either, as I recall. Likewise Jeff Neimann.
Recruiting is affected by at least three things. There are probably more that I'm not aware of.
Cost, discussed here at length. TCU and Vandy can put their entire rosters on full scholarship, so Rice is at a, what, $20K/year disadvantage.
Facilities - we're behind here too. Even behind UH. There's a $10 million upgrade planned to restore parity. I don't know if that's funded yet.
Coaching - Personally I don't see the quality of the coaches is at issue. Rice players have developed their talents to MLB caliber levels while here, e.g., Cingrani, Duffey recently. I can see Otto reaching that level. You can always complain about in-game decisions. I texted another fan at T8 last night that I thought it was time for Otto, before the 2 run bomb. But I don't see if the pitcher is losing speed or movement on his FB, bite on his breaking stuff, etc. They do and base their decisions on such things. One thing that can have at least a marginal effect is WG's age. Ignoring whether that has affected his coaching (I don't think it has), a recruit can legitimately question whether WG will still be at the helm 3 or 4 years down the line.
We won't and shouldn't push for WG to retire. If we're going to get 5-10 more years of borderline top 25 status while we continue winning conference titles, I'll take it in a heartbeat, just to continue seeing him lead the program. Yes, Rice baseball became a brand name and I suppose there is a risk that the brand is eroding and will get worse, but I'm pretty sure the risk would be greater if we got a new coach. We got incredibly lucky with WG and nobody will duplicate what he did, so there shouldn't be any rush for change. Nobody likes to lower the expectations, but don't panic until we lose a conference race.
(02-29-2016 10:19 AM)Ranger Wrote: [ -> ] (02-29-2016 10:04 AM)JustAnotherAustinOwl Wrote: [ -> ] (02-29-2016 10:00 AM)AggieOwl01 Wrote: [ -> ]I mentioned at the end of last year that I thought it was time for a change at the helm and was several refuted me strongly and said this year was going to be a great year. This has the look of a Bobby Bowden/Joe Paterno/Mack Brown ending. I have not seen the team play this year, but it seems things are not headed in the right direction. The team has been trending downward over the last 5 years or so and it looks like we will be taking an even bigger dip this year.
These situations are always hard, but it does not look good right now.
I fear you are correct. Though I'd not use Joe Pa as an example...
I think a change would be beneficial, but I also think that we owe WG an incalculable debt and that he should be the one to decide when it is time.
I agree with AggieOwl on this one. Granted, we're all grateful for what Wayne has done for Rice. At the same time, Texas, Florida State, and Grambling fans were all grateful for what Mack, Bowden and Eddie Robinson accomplished in their careers. But, there came a time for each of these coaches where conflict arose between their desires to coach forever, versus the dropoff in their various programs' performance. As a grateful Wayne Graham fan, I want him to retire on his own terms - but not if he plans to stay for several more years. If that is the case, we need to take the same painful step that Texas/FSU/Grambling did. I hope it doesn't come to that. But, if Wayne wants to coach for several more years - I think for the good of the program JK needs to say no.
(02-29-2016 12:09 PM)RiceLad15 Wrote: [ -> ] (02-29-2016 11:42 AM)Antarius Wrote: [ -> ] (02-29-2016 11:36 AM)cr11owl Wrote: [ -> ] (02-29-2016 11:15 AM)Antarius Wrote: [ -> ]I'm more concerned by the fact that we are playing undisciplined baseball. The fielding over the past few years has been ghastly; the mental mistakes almost to the level of the Football program.
We aren't playing to the level of the talent we have. We need to fix that first, then worry about getting better talent.
Almost? The number of errors we are seeing in baseball is horrendous. Last time I checked we are worse than 250th in the country for fielding and that was before our midweek debacles (another 5 errors).
We know you can't look at football objectively because of the coach but at least compare the players mistakes the same. You could even argue the baseball coaching decisions are worse than the football ones so far this year with the questionable bunts and pitching decisions.
We have 10 years of this in Football. Less in Baseball. So yeah, almost. Regardless, I'm not interested in a measuring contest of bad vs worse. Both are appalling right now.
As for the second point (bolded), no argument there.
Then stop making comparisons...
The point was that they are in the same ballpark.
I don't really care whether one is slightly better or worse. I can rephrase the original with "the mental mistakes
are at or worse than the level of the Football program" and the point still stands.
Please stop arguing for the sake of arguing. cr11 had a point, you're just squabbling like usual.
Personally, I think this is less of a coaching problem and more of a recruitment, scholarship problem.
All the games I've attended this year we have lost. So, I'll take some of the blame.
It's still early and I'm optimistic that we can regain our poise during the CUSA schedule.
(02-29-2016 01:04 PM)Antarius Wrote: [ -> ] (02-29-2016 12:09 PM)RiceLad15 Wrote: [ -> ] (02-29-2016 11:42 AM)Antarius Wrote: [ -> ] (02-29-2016 11:36 AM)cr11owl Wrote: [ -> ] (02-29-2016 11:15 AM)Antarius Wrote: [ -> ]I'm more concerned by the fact that we are playing undisciplined baseball. The fielding over the past few years has been ghastly; the mental mistakes almost to the level of the Football program.
We aren't playing to the level of the talent we have. We need to fix that first, then worry about getting better talent.
Almost? The number of errors we are seeing in baseball is horrendous. Last time I checked we are worse than 250th in the country for fielding and that was before our midweek debacles (another 5 errors).
We know you can't look at football objectively because of the coach but at least compare the players mistakes the same. You could even argue the baseball coaching decisions are worse than the football ones so far this year with the questionable bunts and pitching decisions.
We have 10 years of this in Football. Less in Baseball. So yeah, almost. Regardless, I'm not interested in a measuring contest of bad vs worse. Both are appalling right now.
As for the second point (bolded), no argument there.
Then stop making comparisons...
The point was that they are in the same ballpark.
I don't really care whether one is slightly better or worse. I can rephrase the original with "the mental mistakes are at or worse than the level of the Football program" and the point still stands.
Please stop arguing for the sake of arguing. cr11 had a point, you're just squabbling like usual.
I wasn't arguing at all. Where was my argument?
I was stating that if you don't want to measure bad and worse, don't make the comparison to avoid that. I was literally informing you how to avoid arguing over moot topics that you don't want to argue about. I was suggesting how to avoid goading anyone into challenging you and you aside comment.
And regarding the squabbling, people in glass houses shouldn't throw stones buddy.
(02-29-2016 01:39 PM)greyowl72 Wrote: [ -> ]Personally, I think this is less of a coaching problem and more of a recruitment, scholarship problem.
All the games I've attended this year we have lost. So, I'll take some of the blame.
It's still early and I'm optimistic that we can regain our poise during the CUSA schedule.
The status quo people had their way in basketball and football. Look where that got us.
Those in charge more or less stood idly by as the conference landscape radically shifted. And the results of that were...?
So are we really going to go down the same path in baseball, our golden goose up to this point?
I'm not prescribing a solution here, just trying to make clear that, for a change, we need to be honest with ourselves before we find ourselves in yet another barely tenable situation.
(02-29-2016 02:15 PM)Wiessman Wrote: [ -> ] (02-29-2016 01:39 PM)greyowl72 Wrote: [ -> ]Personally, I think this is less of a coaching problem and more of a recruitment, scholarship problem.
All the games I've attended this year we have lost. So, I'll take some of the blame.
It's still early and I'm optimistic that we can regain our poise during the CUSA schedule.
The status quo people had their way in basketball and football. Look where that got us.
Those in charge more or less stood idly by as the conference landscape radically shifted. And the results of that were...?
So are we really going to go down the same path in baseball, our golden goose up to this point?
I'm not prescribing a solution here, just trying to make clear that, for a change, we need to be honest with ourselves before we find ourselves in yet another barely tenable situation.
Well luckily we are being proactive in facilities, but something has to be done about the root cause of our recent woes.
Are you more of the opinion that it is coaching, rather than player talent?