(02-05-2016 04:04 PM)johnbragg Wrote: [ -> ]I don't think the Vegas 16 is going to pull teams from the NIT, but it probably could pull western teams from the CBI/CIT. I wonder if the organizers will continue the bowl-game MO and make some sort of arrangement with the western conferences.
Counting 'em up, you're looking at the PAC, MWC, WCC; Big West, WAC, Big Sky. You might have interest from the Summit League and from the western halves of the AAC, CUSA. Big XII covers the same geography. That's 10 conferences with big presences west of the Mississippi. Make arrangements to get each conference's top team not in the NCAAs or NIT, and that's most of your bracket.
IF this model works, maybe down the road you see the Magic Kingdom Classic in Orlando?
I don't know that their appeal is limited to the west coast. I went to all of Siena's CBI home games in 2014. Vegas is a direct flight from this town. I would consider it.
(02-05-2016 04:09 PM)Wedge Wrote: [ -> ] (02-05-2016 04:04 PM)johnbragg Wrote: [ -> ]I don't think the Vegas 16 is going to pull teams from the NIT, but it probably could pull western teams from the CBI/CIT. I wonder if the organizers will continue the bowl-game MO and make some sort of arrangement with the western conferences.
Counting 'em up, you're looking at the PAC, MWC, WCC; Big West, WAC, Big Sky. You might have interest from the Summit League and from the western halves of the AAC, CUSA. Big XII covers the same geography. That's 10 conferences with big presences west of the Mississippi. Make arrangements to get each conference's top team not in the NCAAs or NIT, and that's most of your bracket.
IF this model works, maybe down the road you see the Magic Kingdom Classic in Orlando?
That's one possible strategy. Another is to target "major" conference schools that are not invited to the NCAA or NIT and think the CBI and CIT are too low in prestige. (As Indiana's AD reportedly said a year or two ago, "We're Indiana. We don't play in the CBI.")
I don't think that's so much a Big Ten thing as an Indiana thing. I don't expect Indiana, Duke, Kentucky, Kansas etc to play in the Vegas tournament, either. Purdue, Wake Forest, Tennessee, Oklahoma State on the other hand might be open to the CBI or CIT or Vegas tournament, depending on whatever.
(02-05-2016 05:01 PM)johnbragg Wrote: [ -> ] (02-05-2016 04:09 PM)Wedge Wrote: [ -> ] (02-05-2016 04:04 PM)johnbragg Wrote: [ -> ]I don't think the Vegas 16 is going to pull teams from the NIT, but it probably could pull western teams from the CBI/CIT. I wonder if the organizers will continue the bowl-game MO and make some sort of arrangement with the western conferences.
Counting 'em up, you're looking at the PAC, MWC, WCC; Big West, WAC, Big Sky. You might have interest from the Summit League and from the western halves of the AAC, CUSA. Big XII covers the same geography. That's 10 conferences with big presences west of the Mississippi. Make arrangements to get each conference's top team not in the NCAAs or NIT, and that's most of your bracket.
IF this model works, maybe down the road you see the Magic Kingdom Classic in Orlando?
That's one possible strategy. Another is to target "major" conference schools that are not invited to the NCAA or NIT and think the CBI and CIT are too low in prestige. (As Indiana's AD reportedly said a year or two ago, "We're Indiana. We don't play in the CBI.")
I don't think that's so much a Big Ten thing as an Indiana thing. I don't expect Indiana, Duke, Kentucky, Kansas etc to play in the Vegas tournament, either. Purdue, Wake Forest, Tennessee, Oklahoma State on the other hand might be open to the CBI or CIT or Vegas tournament, depending on whatever.
I didn't mean it was a Big Ten thing
per se, more that there are a group of programs that would decline to rub elbows with Punxsutawney Tech in the CBI or CIT but might play in a Vegas tournament in which all the other participants are "name" programs.
(02-05-2016 04:20 PM)CenterSquarEd Wrote: [ -> ] (02-05-2016 04:04 PM)johnbragg Wrote: [ -> ]I don't think the Vegas 16 is going to pull teams from the NIT, but it probably could pull western teams from the CBI/CIT. I wonder if the organizers will continue the bowl-game MO and make some sort of arrangement with the western conferences.
Counting 'em up, you're looking at the PAC, MWC, WCC; Big West, WAC, Big Sky. You might have interest from the Summit League and from the western halves of the AAC, CUSA. Big XII covers the same geography. That's 10 conferences with big presences west of the Mississippi. Make arrangements to get each conference's top team not in the NCAAs or NIT, and that's most of your bracket.
IF this model works, maybe down the road you see the Magic Kingdom Classic in Orlando?
I don't know that their appeal is limited to the west coast. I went to all of Siena's CBI home games in 2014. Vegas is a direct flight from this town. I would consider it.
I'm sure there are many eastern teams that would like to go to Vegas. But, since this is the first year, I'm not expecting anything substantial in regards with the NIT but at least it would better than the CBI or CIT to start and may in the future be more of a player vs the NIT (as stated they will go after all teams not in the NCAA Tourney). And since it is ran by a global sports company who does hold many tournaments in basketball during November and December, they will be able to pull some weight around.
(02-05-2016 05:07 PM)Wedge Wrote: [ -> ] (02-05-2016 05:01 PM)johnbragg Wrote: [ -> ] (02-05-2016 04:09 PM)Wedge Wrote: [ -> ] (02-05-2016 04:04 PM)johnbragg Wrote: [ -> ]I don't think the Vegas 16 is going to pull teams from the NIT, but it probably could pull western teams from the CBI/CIT. I wonder if the organizers will continue the bowl-game MO and make some sort of arrangement with the western conferences.
Counting 'em up, you're looking at the PAC, MWC, WCC; Big West, WAC, Big Sky. You might have interest from the Summit League and from the western halves of the AAC, CUSA. Big XII covers the same geography. That's 10 conferences with big presences west of the Mississippi. Make arrangements to get each conference's top team not in the NCAAs or NIT, and that's most of your bracket.
IF this model works, maybe down the road you see the Magic Kingdom Classic in Orlando?
That's one possible strategy. Another is to target "major" conference schools that are not invited to the NCAA or NIT and think the CBI and CIT are too low in prestige. (As Indiana's AD reportedly said a year or two ago, "We're Indiana. We don't play in the CBI.")
I don't think that's so much a Big Ten thing as an Indiana thing. I don't expect Indiana, Duke, Kentucky, Kansas etc to play in the Vegas tournament, either. Purdue, Wake Forest, Tennessee, Oklahoma State on the other hand might be open to the CBI or CIT or Vegas tournament, depending on whatever.
I didn't mean it was a Big Ten thing per se, more that there are a group of programs that would decline to rub elbows with Punxsutawney Tech in the CBI or CIT but might play in a Vegas tournament in which all the other participants are "name" programs.
Ehh, once you're not in the real Tournament, you're slumming. *Maybe* you might play in the near-century old NIT. It's like when Calipari said, of the SEC championship, "We don't hang three-letter banners." You don't pass on the CBI because you'd be playing Youngstown State instead of Pitt, you pass because you don't do loser tournaments.
(02-05-2016 05:17 PM)MWC Tex Wrote: [ -> ] (02-05-2016 04:20 PM)CenterSquarEd Wrote: [ -> ] (02-05-2016 04:04 PM)johnbragg Wrote: [ -> ]I don't think the Vegas 16 is going to pull teams from the NIT, but it probably could pull western teams from the CBI/CIT. I wonder if the organizers will continue the bowl-game MO and make some sort of arrangement with the western conferences.
Counting 'em up, you're looking at the PAC, MWC, WCC; Big West, WAC, Big Sky. You might have interest from the Summit League and from the western halves of the AAC, CUSA. Big XII covers the same geography. That's 10 conferences with big presences west of the Mississippi. Make arrangements to get each conference's top team not in the NCAAs or NIT, and that's most of your bracket.
IF this model works, maybe down the road you see the Magic Kingdom Classic in Orlando?
I don't know that their appeal is limited to the west coast. I went to all of Siena's CBI home games in 2014. Vegas is a direct flight from this town. I would consider it.
I'm sure there are many eastern teams that would like to go to Vegas. But, since this is the first year, I'm not expecting anything substantial in regards with the NIT but at least it would better than the CBI or CIT to start and may in the future be more of a player vs the NIT (as stated they will go after all teams not in the NCAA Tourney). And since it is ran by a global sports company who does hold many tournaments in basketball during November and December, they will be able to pull some weight around.
It's the first year. If they sign up 16 schools and fill half of the seats and don't lose their shirts, I'd call that a raging success.
(02-05-2016 05:20 PM)johnbragg Wrote: [ -> ] (02-05-2016 05:17 PM)MWC Tex Wrote: [ -> ] (02-05-2016 04:20 PM)CenterSquarEd Wrote: [ -> ] (02-05-2016 04:04 PM)johnbragg Wrote: [ -> ]I don't think the Vegas 16 is going to pull teams from the NIT, but it probably could pull western teams from the CBI/CIT. I wonder if the organizers will continue the bowl-game MO and make some sort of arrangement with the western conferences.
Counting 'em up, you're looking at the PAC, MWC, WCC; Big West, WAC, Big Sky. You might have interest from the Summit League and from the western halves of the AAC, CUSA. Big XII covers the same geography. That's 10 conferences with big presences west of the Mississippi. Make arrangements to get each conference's top team not in the NCAAs or NIT, and that's most of your bracket.
IF this model works, maybe down the road you see the Magic Kingdom Classic in Orlando?
I don't know that their appeal is limited to the west coast. I went to all of Siena's CBI home games in 2014. Vegas is a direct flight from this town. I would consider it.
I'm sure there are many eastern teams that would like to go to Vegas. But, since this is the first year, I'm not expecting anything substantial in regards with the NIT but at least it would better than the CBI or CIT to start and may in the future be more of a player vs the NIT (as stated they will go after all teams not in the NCAA Tourney). And since it is ran by a global sports company who does hold many tournaments in basketball during November and December, they will be able to pull some weight around.
It's the first year. If they sign up 16 schools and fill half of the seats and don't lose their shirts, I'd call that a raging success.
Well they did move the venue from Cox Pavillion (seating 2,500) to Mandalay Bay (seating 12,000) so there must have been enough info to change the venue to a bigger capacity.
I do see your point and we'll just have to come back to this in a month a see which teams chose to go to the Vegas 16.
(02-05-2016 11:32 AM)Wedge Wrote: [ -> ] (02-05-2016 01:57 AM)_C2_ Wrote: [ -> ]I'd be fine with getting rid of the auto-bids to the NCAA's (keep the NIT ones)
The autobids are backwards. The NCAA tournament autobid should go to a conference's regular-season champ. Give the NIT autobids to conference tournament winners who are not selected for the NCAA tournament.
Correct me if I'm wrong, but technically the conference can choose to distribute its autobid any way they choose; they don't
have to give it to a tournament champion.
Putting aside the monetary and branding reasons for having a tournament, I'm of the belief that many schools would benefit by not having one and just giving their bid to the regular-season champion. CUSA, by virtue of its massive footprint, is destined to have poor attendance for its tournament because there's no obvious central location that's convenient for everyone except the host (maybe Nashville, but they appear to be spoken for for the foreseeable future). Other conferences—the MEAC springs to mind—struggle with attendance *and* they too often lose their best team (and thus best shot at 15 minutes of fame with a round of 64 win) because it lost to a hot .500 team in the semis or finals.
The money and/or exposure is too great for anyone to willingly walk away from a tournament, but in the long run, I'd say at least 1/3rd of conferences today would benefit by punting them.
The Vegas 16? Has a nice ring to it but it's still putting lipstick on a pig. The de-evolution of achievement and reward in sports continues with the "everybody wins a ribbon mentality." Outside of the NCAA, there should be no other end-of-the-year invitational tournament except the NIT. The NIT has history, features some good matchups, home floor games and gives opportunities to teams to experience playing in a major tournament. If you're not one of the 68 selected in the NCAA or 32 in the NIT (100 total) - stay home, save the travel money and work harder next year to qualify.
I agree with the Bearcat, somewhat. Get rid of the CBI and CIT. Make the "dance" 96, and the NIT 48.
(02-06-2016 12:06 PM)UCGrad1992 Wrote: [ -> ]Outside of the NCAA, there should be no other end-of-the-year invitational tournament except the NIT. The NIT has history, features some good matchups, home floor games and gives opportunities to teams to experience playing in a major tournament. If you're not one of the 68 selected in the NCAA or 32 in the NIT (100 total) - stay home, save the travel money and work harder next year to qualify.
The NCAA can't get away with outlawing other postseason tournaments completely, all they can do is set up reasonable standards and certify them -- as they do with football bowl games.
Remember that the reason the NCAA now owns the NIT is that the NCAA bought the NIT to settle a lawsuit in which the NIT owners accused the NCAA of trying to drive them out of business. If the NCAA overexpanded the NIT (to 48 or 64 teams) to try and kill off Vegas16/CBI/CIT, they'd get sued for that, too. I will guess that the NCAA's lawyers have already advised them to not expand the NIT for that reason.
(02-06-2016 02:03 PM)Wedge Wrote: [ -> ] (02-06-2016 12:06 PM)UCGrad1992 Wrote: [ -> ]Outside of the NCAA, there should be no other end-of-the-year invitational tournament except the NIT. The NIT has history, features some good matchups, home floor games and gives opportunities to teams to experience playing in a major tournament. If you're not one of the 68 selected in the NCAA or 32 in the NIT (100 total) - stay home, save the travel money and work harder next year to qualify.
The NCAA can't get away with outlawing other postseason tournaments completely, all they can do is set up reasonable standards and certify them -- as they do with football bowl games.
Remember that the reason the NCAA now owns the NIT is that the NCAA bought the NIT to settle a lawsuit in which the NIT owners accused the NCAA of trying to drive them out of business. If the NCAA overexpanded the NIT (to 48 or 64 teams) to try and kill off Vegas16/CBI/CIT, they'd get sued for that, too. I will guess that the NCAA's lawyers have already advised them to not expand the NIT for that reason.
Agree with your points from the legal side of things. I was not suggesting killing off the other tournaments literally - just point of fact that too many bad teams get "rewarded" to play in an otherwise meaningless post season tourney.
The NIT was once 40 teams, so that wouldn't be an issue imo. Anything beyond that would.
http://www.roanoke.com/sports/colleges/v...46722.html
Some additional info:
Pay to play to start: $45k - $55k to cover airfare, hotel and transportation. Amount is for whether they stay for 1 game or all 4.
CBI has home teams playing $35k - $75k each each round.
Couple of quotes:
“We’re waiting almost two weeks until the [Vegas 16] tournament starts, so you’ve got two additional weeks of practice, which we think will be very attractive for coaches,” Downing said. “We’ve made it a very simplified model — all the games are played in one location, so you know your costs.”
“The NIT’s doing what it’s doing and there’s obviously a loyalty there with the NCAA owning it and it’s got 100 years of history on us. So it might be a little hard to crack into some of those teams early on,” Downing said. “But I think once people learn more about our event, understand how it’s at a neutral site, recognize the benefits from the financial model, realize the benefits from a practice and preparation model, I think there will be those that’ll make the best decisions for their program based on those factors [and pick the Vegas 16 over the NIT]. … but that might not happen till Years 3, 4, 5.
“Those that take a hard look at this model, … you’re not talking about having to go play a road game at Robert Morris. … It’s a bowl game for basketball.”
(03-02-2016 01:25 PM)MWC Tex Wrote: [ -> ]http://www.roanoke.com/sports/colleges/v...46722.html
Some additional info:
Pay to play to start: $45k - $55k to cover airfare, hotel and transportation. Amount is for whether they stay for 1 game or all 4.
CBI has home teams playing $35k - $75k each each round.
So the event promoter is going to make money by purchasing airfare, hotel rooms, etc. and selling them at a profit to participating teams. Kind of like buying a vacation package from a resort or travel agency.
(03-02-2016 02:54 PM)Wedge Wrote: [ -> ] (03-02-2016 01:25 PM)MWC Tex Wrote: [ -> ]http://www.roanoke.com/sports/colleges/v...46722.html
Some additional info:
Pay to play to start: $45k - $55k to cover airfare, hotel and transportation. Amount is for whether they stay for 1 game or all 4.
CBI has home teams playing $35k - $75k each each round.
So the event promoter is going to make money by purchasing airfare, hotel rooms, etc. and selling them at a profit to participating teams. Kind of like buying a vacation package from a resort or travel agency.
Sounds like it, in addition with ticket sales.
I don't have any quote of article, but on the MW Board some UNLV posters say that the tournament hopes that in a few years that tournament be at a point where the teams don't pay to participate.
(03-02-2016 02:54 PM)Wedge Wrote: [ -> ] (03-02-2016 01:25 PM)MWC Tex Wrote: [ -> ]http://www.roanoke.com/sports/colleges/v...46722.html
Some additional info:
Pay to play to start: $45k - $55k to cover airfare, hotel and transportation. Amount is for whether they stay for 1 game or all 4.
CBI has home teams playing $35k - $75k each each round.
So the event promoter is going to make money by purchasing airfare, hotel rooms, etc. and selling them at a profit to participating teams. Kind of like buying a vacation package from a resort or travel agency.
I wonder if the teams will have to sit through a timeshare pitch before their first game?
(02-06-2016 12:06 PM)UCGrad1992 Wrote: [ -> ]The Vegas 16? Has a nice ring to it but it's still putting lipstick on a pig. The de-evolution of achievement and reward in sports continues with the "everybody wins a ribbon mentality." Outside of the NCAA, there should be no other end-of-the-year invitational tournament except the NIT. The NIT has history, features some good matchups, home floor games and gives opportunities to teams to experience playing in a major tournament. If you're not one of the 68 selected in the NCAA or 32 in the NIT (100 total) - stay home, save the travel money and work harder next year to qualify.
I'd agree wholeheartedly if the men's NIT were like the women's NIT.
On the men's side no one has a spot unless they are a conference champ that didn't earn an NCAA bid or invited at-large.
On the women's side they guarantee that the highest team not selected to the NCAA from each conference receives an auto bid to the Women's NIT and then fill the remainder of the field at-large. There is always the chance that a second place from a low regarded league might actually be pretty decent.
(03-02-2016 04:59 PM)arkstfan Wrote: [ -> ] (02-06-2016 12:06 PM)UCGrad1992 Wrote: [ -> ]The Vegas 16? Has a nice ring to it but it's still putting lipstick on a pig. The de-evolution of achievement and reward in sports continues with the "everybody wins a ribbon mentality." Outside of the NCAA, there should be no other end-of-the-year invitational tournament except the NIT. The NIT has history, features some good matchups, home floor games and gives opportunities to teams to experience playing in a major tournament. If you're not one of the 68 selected in the NCAA or 32 in the NIT (100 total) - stay home, save the travel money and work harder next year to qualify.
I'd agree wholeheartedly if the men's NIT were like the women's NIT.
On the men's side no one has a spot unless they are a conference champ that didn't earn an NCAA bid or invited at-large.
On the women's side they guarantee that the highest team not selected to the NCAA from each conference receives an auto bid to the Women's NIT and then fill the remainder of the field at-large. There is always the chance that a second place from a low regarded league might actually be pretty decent.
The women's NIT field is also 64 teams, which provides lots of room for both everyone's No. 2 and the at-large teams. Of course, they still have a third-tier tournament, the legendary Women's Basketball Invitational.
Third-tier tourneys are a lot like the low-level bowls — the results don't matter and on-site attendance is usually abysmal, but it's good extra practice for the teams involved and it helps fill a little airtime when the important games aren't on.