(09-20-2015 02:08 PM)CajunBlazer Wrote: [ -> ]While we should strive excellence in all that we do, but state universities should always give priority to educating state residents. That is why they are built and why they continue to receive state taxpayer subsidies. There is, and should, be no argument on that score.
This is a very important point, maybe overlooked in taking apart the details of Knox's argument. The self-appointing Board is (poorly) running UAT like an independent business.
I do wonder what the "Witt Plan" will mean for UAT's political influence in coming decades, as a UAT education becomes less of an aspiration and more of their grads leave the state. Already a huge chunk of their student body is voting with their asses to ignore Tide fooobaw. They could be on the road to losing their crimson cloak of invulnerability.
(09-20-2015 07:17 PM)58-56 Wrote: [ -> ] (09-20-2015 02:08 PM)CajunBlazer Wrote: [ -> ]While we should strive excellence in all that we do, but state universities should always give priority to educating state residents. That is why they are built and why they continue to receive state taxpayer subsidies. There is, and should, be no argument on that score.
This is a very important point, maybe overlooked in taking apart the details of Knox's argument. The self-appointing Board is (poorly) running UAT like an independent business.
I do wonder what the "Witt Plan" will mean for UAT's political influence in coming decades, as a UAT education becomes less of an aspiration and more of their grads leave the state. Already a huge chunk of their student body is voting with their asses to ignore Tide fooobaw. They could be on the road to losing their crimson cloak of invulnerability.
To be fair the state has been slashing the amount of money going to state schools, so they have to make up the money somewhere. While I think UA took it a little too far, out of state tuition is an important part of the mix to try to balance the budget. Especially as they move towards online-only students who generally do not displace traditional students. Online-only will be a huge part of the move towards out of state recruitment for UAB.
(09-20-2015 08:03 PM)mixduptransistor Wrote: [ -> ]To be fair the state has been slashing the amount of money going to state schools, so they have to make up the money somewhere. While I think UA took it a little too far, out of state tuition is an important part of the mix to try to balance the budget. Especially as they move towards online-only students who generally do not displace traditional students. Online-only will be a huge part of the move towards out of state recruitment for UAB.
I was looking more at the Machine/Trustee angle. While it may make financial sense, it could come at the cost of political power.
(09-20-2015 08:20 PM)LairDweller Wrote: [ -> ] (09-20-2015 07:12 PM)sadolakced Wrote: [ -> ] (09-19-2015 11:14 AM)biglizard Wrote: [ -> ]I can tell you from going through the process that the SOM take UAB kids preferentially then best in state then best out of state.
SOM doesn't prioritize UAB applicants. SOM prioritizes in-state applicants, and UAB has more quality applicants.
UAB has a reputation among Alabama high school students as the place to go if you want to go to medical school. It also has a lot of resources for premed- decent premed advising and plenty of opportunities to get involved in research and volunteer with underserved children. These are the factors that lead to UAB being the largest feeder for UASOM in recent years. UAB doesn't beat out Alabama+ Auburn though last time I checked.
The only priority given is the EMSAP program, which has combined admissions to undergrad and medical school at the same time.
This one I agree with
This is probably a better explanation than my shorter one. The other advantage is that many SOM faculty have worked with applicants from UAB in the lab and are familiar with their work and work ethic. Of course it seems like dinosaurs walked the earth when I applied so things may have changed
(09-20-2015 08:03 PM)mixduptransistor Wrote: [ -> ] (09-20-2015 07:17 PM)58-56 Wrote: [ -> ] (09-20-2015 02:08 PM)CajunBlazer Wrote: [ -> ]While we should strive excellence in all that we do, but state universities should always give priority to educating state residents. That is why they are built and why they continue to receive state taxpayer subsidies. There is, and should, be no argument on that score.
This is a very important point, maybe overlooked in taking apart the details of Knox's argument. The self-appointing Board is (poorly) running UAT like an independent business.
I do wonder what the "Witt Plan" will mean for UAT's political influence in coming decades, as a UAT education becomes less of an aspiration and more of their grads leave the state. Already a huge chunk of their student body is voting with their asses to ignore Tide fooobaw. They could be on the road to losing their crimson cloak of invulnerability.
To be fair the state has been slashing the amount of money going to state schools, so they have to make up the money somewhere. While I think UA took it a little too far, out of state tuition is an important part of the mix to try to balance the budget. Especially as they move towards online-only students who generally do not displace traditional students. Online-only will be a huge part of the move towards out of state recruitment for UAB.
Yes. state funding has been slashed and with our legislature lacking the moral courage to raise taxes to cover a huge hole in the state budget they will stealing still more from education and slash funding yet again.
However, keep in mind that UAB and other state universities have felt very similar slashes in state funding without having to greatly increase their student population or rely principally on out of state tuition to make ends meet.
The primary method used to determine whether a university is in stable financial condition is to compare its expendables on hand to its debt. According to a 2013 report, the latest available, UAB's expendables to debt ratio is 2.05 - which of course a very stable financial situation And this was accomplished under the same state funding situation as the UAT campus and without selling the university's soul by attracting more and more out of state students. By comparison, UATs expendables to debt ratios ratio is 1.25, still okay, but nowhere near a good as UAB ratio despite UAT's dependence on out of state tuition.
However, to accommodate an growing student population the Alabama has to take on even more debt to build additional facilities to accommodate the need of a ever larger student population.
The UAT campus debt increased from $353 million in 2009 to $682 million in 2011 to $952 million as of Sept. of 2014. It now over a billion. This is primarily due to Witt's growth plan. His companion plan to turn Alabama into a top tier research university has been a dismal failure.
I think it is interesting that the BOT turned down a very solid UAB plan to build a $70M OCS, but they have since financially backed $202M in private loans to UAT fraternities and sororities to expand and build new Greek housing. For instance Gamma Phi Beta Sorority is building a $12 million, 40,000 square-foot mansion on prime university property. The Machine is gearing up for the future.
(09-18-2015 04:13 PM)uabbean Wrote: [ -> ]As a college administrator. More students from the state of Alabama now attend UAT than when the process started. Using percentages of individual HS is hog wash. John is really stretching on this one. The UAT undergraduate academic standards has gone through the roof. Also states UAT is awash in debts but uses zero facts to support him. UATs bond rating has actually improved during the process.
UAB's finances was expanded/built on research dollars but the overall research dollars are in decline and cannot be expected to support future growth. Almost everyone on this board wishes the student body to expand for the purpose of supporting sports if nothing else. Whit who is soon to be gone but wishes to move UAB out of the bottom quartile of undergraduate schoolsby attracting numbers and academics by using STEM students from out of state.
I am proud of the SOM and I believe that the majority of students are from out of state. If we are too expand UAB we will also now have to use debt instead of research dollars. This is really a stupid criticism I would not want to limit UAB to in state students.
"As a college administrator," you are for what drives more money to the system, from whatever source. You and Dr. Witt share that. As a sixth generation Alabamian, I understand there is something instinctively wrong with the state's flagship university educating a significantly larger percentage of out of state students than in state students. A public state university should not exist as an academic island, but should serve and reflect the needs of the citizens of the State.
The fact is Dr. Witt, like many others, is a higher education carpetbagger and cares more for building empires with state funds, than for serving the populace who provided those funds.
(09-20-2015 02:08 PM)CajunBlazer Wrote: [ -> ]You also seem to be long on rhetoric and short on facts. Your statement that you believe that the majority of SOM students are from out of state has already proved to be erroneous
I also think that your claim that "More students from the state of Alabama now attend UAT than when the process started." is also false based on the individual county statistics sited by John, but maybe Knox is cherry picked those numbers, So why don't you come back with real statistics which proves that point. If you can't do so I say we call BS on your entire post.
My memory was faulty on the SOM in state enrollment. Not only currently but for at least the last fifteen year is at worst 20 % out of state for professional schools.
However UAT has actually increased the pure number of in-state students
""The University of Alabama's increase in enrollment of both in-state and out-of-state students over the last decade has been the result of a carefully planned effort to grow with quality," Lane said.
A decade ago, UA received 8,129 applications for the freshman class. Last year, 31,000 students vied for a spot in the fall 2013 freshman class."
http://www.al.com/news/tuscaloosa/index....ama_s.html
This UAT talking point that has been used in numerous times in Ala com. They statements are usually simple that more students for the state of Alabama now attend. The majority of the increase is from Texas thanks mostly to Governor George Bush(funny story)
The SOM is very large majority in state students.
(09-20-2015 09:24 PM)CajunBlazer Wrote: [ -> ]I think it is interesting that the BOT turned down a very solid UAB plan to build a $70M OCS, but they have since financially backed $202M in private loans to UAT fraternities and sororities to expand and build new Greek housing. For instance Gamma Phi Beta Sorority is building a $12 million, 40,000 square-foot mansion on prime university property. The Machine is gearing up for the future.
Can't really fault them for building Greek houses. Greeks give more back to their schools than non-Greeks. Plus it attracts future students.
Plus they'll probably make money on the loans to the chapters. My wife's chapter is one of the houses being financed and they have like 250+ girls. It's easy to pay the money back when you have that kind of cash flow coming in.
(09-21-2015 10:17 AM)dfarr Wrote: [ -> ] (09-20-2015 09:24 PM)CajunBlazer Wrote: [ -> ]I think it is interesting that the BOT turned down a very solid UAB plan to build a $70M OCS, but they have since financially backed $202M in private loans to UAT fraternities and sororities to expand and build new Greek housing. For instance Gamma Phi Beta Sorority is building a $12 million, 40,000 square-foot mansion on prime university property. The Machine is gearing up for the future.
Can't really fault them for building Greek houses. Greeks give more back to their schools than non-Greeks. Plus it attracts future students.
Plus they'll probably make money on the loans to the chapters. My wife's chapter is one of the houses being financed and they have like 250+ girls. It's easy to pay the money back when you have that kind of cash flow coming in.
BS on Greeks giving more back to the University than other students. What the Alabama Greeks have contributed the most to UAT is a lot of bad press as they continue their discrimination against minorities. The Greek run machine has also created their own bad publicity with their interference in local elections and their attempts to take down the non-machine candidate who won the SGA presidency.
And BS on the BOT making money on the loans to the Greeks - they are not making the loans, they are essentially co-signing the loans.
And why should should the BOT use university property and back hundreds of millions in loans for such a small segment of the student population?
(09-20-2015 10:35 PM)uabbean Wrote: [ -> ] (09-20-2015 02:08 PM)CajunBlazer Wrote: [ -> ]You also seem to be long on rhetoric and short on facts. Your statement that you believe that the majority of SOM students are from out of state has already proved to be erroneous
I also think that your claim that "More students from the state of Alabama now attend UAT than when the process started." is also false based on the individual county statistics sited by John, but maybe Knox is cherry picked those numbers, So why don't you come back with real statistics which proves that point. If you can't do so I say we call BS on your entire post.
My memory was faulty on the SOM in state enrollment. Not only currently but for at least the last fifteen year is at worst 20 % out of state for professional schools.
However UAT has actually increased the pure number of in-state students
""The University of Alabama's increase in enrollment of both in-state and out-of-state students over the last decade has been the result of a carefully planned effort to grow with quality," Lane said.
A decade ago, UA received 8,129 applications for the freshman class. Last year, 31,000 students vied for a spot in the fall 2013 freshman class."
http://www.al.com/news/tuscaloosa/index....ama_s.html
This UAT talking point that has been used in numerous times in Ala com. They statements are usually simple that more students for the state of Alabama now attend. The majority of the increase is from Texas thanks mostly to Governor George Bush(funny story)
I don't seen anything in you post which actually substantiates you contention that the total number of Alabama students is still growing at UAT. Two general statements in the article you presented actually contradict one another: The author writes, "For at least seven years, overall in-state enrollment has steadily declined and each freshman class has surpassed its predecessor in number." Later she quotes a University employee (who I'm sure is devoid of prejudice on this point) "The University of Alabama's increase in enrollment of both in-state and out-of-state students over the last decade has been the result of a carefully planned effort to grow with quality."
You have provide contradicted words to support your claim, but no statistics, but you know what, it doesn't matter. As the university grows it should provide ever greater opportunity to in state students. Instead those additional opportunities are in large part being provided to out of state students recruited by the university and which, coincidentally I'm sure, happen to provide a lot more tuition money.
Alabama taxpayer money built our state universities as investments in our young people. The purpose was not to invest in the young people of Texas who can't get into their own state universities. In addition, Alabama kids educated in Alabama universities are more likely to stay in state and use the knowledge gained to create even greater opportunities in state. Out of state students are more likely to leave the state after graduation and take their knowledge with them. I am not saying that we should not enroll students from out of state and from out of country in our state universities, but a plan which has resulted in Alabama students becoming a minority the so called "state flagship university" is a travesty.
All I know, UAT has a minority percentage 1/3 lower than Liberty University in a state with a 26% black population.
(09-21-2015 10:37 AM)CajunBlazer Wrote: [ -> ] (09-21-2015 10:17 AM)dfarr Wrote: [ -> ] (09-20-2015 09:24 PM)CajunBlazer Wrote: [ -> ]I think it is interesting that the BOT turned down a very solid UAB plan to build a $70M OCS, but they have since financially backed $202M in private loans to UAT fraternities and sororities to expand and build new Greek housing. For instance Gamma Phi Beta Sorority is building a $12 million, 40,000 square-foot mansion on prime university property. The Machine is gearing up for the future.
Can't really fault them for building Greek houses. Greeks give more back to their schools than non-Greeks. Plus it attracts future students.
Plus they'll probably make money on the loans to the chapters. My wife's chapter is one of the houses being financed and they have like 250+ girls. It's easy to pay the money back when you have that kind of cash flow coming in.
BS on Greeks giving more back to the University than other students. What the Alabama Greeks have contributed the most to UAT is a lot of bad press as they continue their discrimination against minorities. The Greek run machine has also created their own bad publicity with their interference in local elections and their attempts to take down the non-machine candidate who won the SGA presidency.
And BS on the BOT making money on the loans to the Greeks - they are not making the loans, they are essentially co-signing the loans.
And why should should the BOT use university property and back hundreds of millions in loans for such a small segment of the student population?
At UAT Greeks are like 33% of the student population, so its a large segment, and it also counts for housing as well. And on average fraternity/sorority members donate more to their alma mater than independents. Greek life literature throws around a 75% of donations come from Greeks, but I won't cite that since I cannot find a valid source for that number.
(09-21-2015 12:14 PM)dfarr Wrote: [ -> ] (09-21-2015 10:37 AM)CajunBlazer Wrote: [ -> ] (09-21-2015 10:17 AM)dfarr Wrote: [ -> ] (09-20-2015 09:24 PM)CajunBlazer Wrote: [ -> ]I think it is interesting that the BOT turned down a very solid UAB plan to build a $70M OCS, but they have since financially backed $202M in private loans to UAT fraternities and sororities to expand and build new Greek housing. For instance Gamma Phi Beta Sorority is building a $12 million, 40,000 square-foot mansion on prime university property. The Machine is gearing up for the future.
Can't really fault them for building Greek houses. Greeks give more back to their schools than non-Greeks. Plus it attracts future students.
Plus they'll probably make money on the loans to the chapters. My wife's chapter is one of the houses being financed and they have like 250+ girls. It's easy to pay the money back when you have that kind of cash flow coming in.
BS on Greeks giving more back to the University than other students. What the Alabama Greeks have contributed the most to UAT is a lot of bad press as they continue their discrimination against minorities. The Greek run machine has also created their own bad publicity with their interference in local elections and their attempts to take down the non-machine candidate who won the SGA presidency.
And BS on the BOT making money on the loans to the Greeks - they are not making the loans, they are essentially co-signing the loans.
And why should should the BOT use university property and back hundreds of millions in loans for such a small segment of the student population?
At UAT Greeks are like 33% of the student population, so its a large segment, and it also counts for housing as well. And on average fraternity/sorority members donate more to their alma mater than independents. Greek life literature throws around a 75% of donations come from Greeks, but I won't cite that since I cannot find a valid source for that number.
Obviously the Greeks can't do simple math at UAT. The website where you got the 33% figure also claimed that 9,500 students are members of sororities and fraternities while the University claims to have 36,155 students. That makes Greeks 26.3% of the university student population And I am sure you are aware that not all of the Greeks live in their mansions, so the BOT is essentially subsidizing houses for a small percentage of the UAT students. If additional housing is needed it is a no brainer that dorms provide housing for students much less expensively than the Greeks' mansions. Do you know what the Greeks societies pay the university for their lease of university property - $100 a year.
Also, go look at the various UAT Greek websites and you will see how hard it is to find a black face pictured on the sites belonging to predominately white
Greek organizations. That's because their are only two blacks out of 9,500 Greeks on campus and both of those cases are aberrations. One of the most powerful fraternities on campus, Kappa Alpha, still has its "Old South" festivities every year which features frat members wearing confederate uniforms and waving the confederate battle flags.
Of course the Machine is still running student politics at UAT - it was behind a recent vote by the Student Senate which killed student senate resolution supporting racial integration of fraternities and sororities on campus. Of course, the Machine also runs Alabama state politics which probably explains why the Greek system enjoys so much privilege on the UAT campus.
Among the powerful fraternities which control the Machine on the UAT campus, money and social status go a long way in determining who get in and who does not. It is an elite system which offers many benefits to its members both before and after they graduate. However, most students, including minorities, need not apply. But I have to admit that belong to a fraternity has its good points. After all, where else on the UAT campus, except in the Greek mansions, can students go to parties and drink alcohol all night even though most of them are not of legal drinking age.
(09-21-2015 10:52 AM)CajunBlazer Wrote: [ -> ]I don't seen anything in you post which actually substantiates you contention that the total number of Alabama students is still growing at UAT. Two general statements in the article you presented actually contradict one another: The author writes, "For at least seven years, overall in-state enrollment has steadily declined and each freshman class has surpassed its predecessor in number." Later she quotes a University employee (who I'm sure is devoid of prejudice on this point) "The University of Alabama's increase in enrollment of both in-state and out-of-state students over the last decade has been the result of a carefully planned effort to grow with quality."
You have provide contradicted words to support your claim, but no statistics
IMHO the first quote is included with the out of state percentage which is steadily declining listing - not with numbers of actual students which has not. However here are the actual student count numbers from the UAT common date set.
http://oira.ua.edu/d/content/reports/common-data-set
................................. 2001 ........ 2014
............................. First year ...... Last Year - Available
Total undergraduate -- 15,316 ---- 30,752
Percentage instate ----- 79.4% ---- 50.3%
......................... ----- ______ ---- ______
Instate Students ------ 12,136 ----- 15,468
So actually with respect for John's love of BS percentage statistics a 25% increase in instate students for UAT
(09-20-2015 09:24 PM)CajunBlazer Wrote: [ -> ]And why should should the BOT use university property and back hundreds of millions in loans for such a small segment of the student population....
Obviously the Greeks can't do simple math at UAT. The website where you got the 33% figure also claimed that 9,500 students are members of sororities and fraternities while the University claims to have 36,155 students. That makes Greeks 26.3% of the university student population And I am sure you are aware that not all of the Greeks live in their mansions, so the BOT is essentially subsidizing houses for a small percentage of the UAT students.
If you understand colleges, the number from frat boys is much closer than yours. The university has so only 29,851 full time undergraduates who are eligible to be members. So, 32% for 2014. The 2014 freshmen are even higher with 50% girls and 31.3% joining.
I was a GDI but undergraduate experiences are what we all seem to agree is needed to attract students for example main justification for UAB football.
As an alumnus of UA (BA from Arts & Sciences in 1963 - at the end of the summer that began with that "Stand in the Schoolhouse Door") what caught my attention in the presented numbers is that in 2001 UA was the same size - 15,000 - as in 1961. What accounts for a school that remained static in enrollment from 1961 to 2001 (40 years) should suddenly grow to 30,000 by 2014 (only 13 years)?
As for the "Greeks", their organizations have always been status seekers with the groups separated into tiers by family wealth and a student's physical good looks. The rich and beautiful join their fellows in certain chapters while the less beautiful and less wealthy fall into lower "drafting strata" or don't get invited (drafted) at all. Check the past "Corollas" for those who win "Miss This or Mister That stand out in both "virtues" and you are likely to see all the contestants are from those upper tier "Greek" groups. Exceptions? Yes, I'm sure there are a few - VERY FEW.
The "Mahout", a 1960s campus humor magazine asked "Do you know the Legend of Denny Chimes? Do you suppose that is where the KDs got their brick wall?"