(08-06-2015 09:10 AM)Niner National Wrote: [ -> ] (08-06-2015 08:50 AM)UCF08 Wrote: [ -> ]The French have found a way to deal with it, and quite frankly, Reid is wrong on this issue. But let's not act like Republicans are championing this issue either, though I do think they have more supporting Nuclear than the Dems do.
You mean the french don't just store spent nuclear waste on site all over the country?
The French recycle it. Eventually, you recycle it enough that you can put what's left over back into the mine where you found it.
We can't do that because Jimmy Carter signed an executive order forbidding it. If I were president, that order would be revoked on day one, along with hundreds if not thousands of others. I've thought that my inauguration speech would simply be a public executive order signing session, getting rid of a bunch of crap that needs to be done away with. The Gorelick memo would be pretty near the top of the list.
I was in Paris years ago and heard an interview with the French energy minister, who was a Green Party member in a coalition government at the time. He was asked how he, as a Green, could defend the fact that France gets 80% of its electricity from nuclear. His response was classic, "Look around, do you see any oil wells? I don't either."
Oh, and by the way, fair is fair. UCF, your opposition to democrats is duly noted here. Although you couldn't let it go without taking a shot at the republicans, too. Just kidding on the last, I am in complete agreement on all points you made here.
(08-06-2015 09:08 AM)Niner National Wrote: [ -> ] (08-06-2015 08:40 AM)BobL Wrote: [ -> ] (08-05-2015 02:59 PM)georgia_tech_swagger Wrote: [ -> ]Clean power plan: relax.
The Germans are subsidizing solar so heavily, they're actually bringing down global prices due to Swanson's Law ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Swanson's_law )
Let the German taxpayer help make solar so stupid cheap that it can be put up everywhere, thus further reducing prices. It's already to the point where you have solar PPA groups sprouting up all over the place.
Current technologies are improving quickly and new technologies are being developed just as quick.
http://www2.technologyreview.com/special....aspx?id=7
Yep. Some people can't get past political solar talking points, but those that follow the technology and price points (current and future projections) closely, know that solar will be a major part of the energy mix over the coming decades.
Panel costs have fallen ~ 99% since the 70's. The next hurdle is storage costs, and they're already falling rapidly as well. Long term projections put storage costs at around $250/kWh at residential scale. Utility scale will certainly be lower than that.
If storage costs can fall to absurdly low levels too, solar wins the future. It can be deployed in days at the residential scale and just a few months at the utility scale. No other form of energy production can be added to the grid with that kind of speed.
Even today, a utility scale solar field doesn't need incentives to be financially viable. If anyone ever invents a machine to automate the installation of these solar fields, the cost would be hilariously low. Labor costs are the one variable that doesn't really go down, but if it can be removed, the cost for solar could probably eventually fall below $1/watt installed.
the bottleneck isn't the cost, the constraints remain the viable collection areas and space required to collect the energy.
Great. Yet another "advance" that can kill firefighters.
http://www.nbcphiladelphia.com/news/loca...85811.html
Quote:Ken Willette from the National Fire Protection Association, a nonprofit that develops standards for firefighting, says electrocution is one of the hazards firefighters are increasingly facing fighting blazes at structures where solar panels are deployed.
“Those panels, as long as there’s any kind of light present, whether it’s daylight or it’s electronic lamp light, will generate electricity,” he said.
Limo Driver in Deadly Newlywed Crash Possibly on Drugs
A 2011 study from the Underwriters Laboratory found solar panels, being individual energy producers, could not be easily de-energized from a single point like other electric sources. Researchers recommended throwing a tarp over the panels to block light, but only if crews could safely get to the area.
“Very often they’re not wired like your home, where you have a master breaker. Even if you turn the breaker off, the panels still generate electricity and you need to cover them and prevent any light from getting into them,” Willette said.
Flooding a roof with solar panels also presents access issues that can stop firefighters from making ventilation holes used to extinguish the fire.
Willette says the issues force firefighters to take a defensive approach to fighting the flames by staying away from the building – rather than going inside and attacking the fire source.
Sandy's "Freaky" Path May Be Less Likely in Future
“It definitely impedes the firefighting operation and any time you impede firefighting operation, you slow down suppression efforts,” he said.
Not even covered in that is how most of these arrays are installed post-construction and often weigh more than the roof is designed for. That means an earlier collapse in fire conditions, and when you are dealing with an overloaded roof usually instead of getting the normal collapse warning signs it just catastrophically collapses so you don't have time to get your crews out.
Should be a national standard where structures equipped with solar equipment have some sort of sign or marking visible from the street so when the FD arrives they know to just surround and drown.
(08-07-2015 08:47 AM)Kaplony Wrote: [ -> ]Great. Yet another "advance" that can kill firefighters.
http://www.nbcphiladelphia.com/news/loca...85811.html
Quote:Ken Willette from the National Fire Protection Association, a nonprofit that develops standards for firefighting, says electrocution is one of the hazards firefighters are increasingly facing fighting blazes at structures where solar panels are deployed.
“Those panels, as long as there’s any kind of light present, whether it’s daylight or it’s electronic lamp light, will generate electricity,” he said.
Limo Driver in Deadly Newlywed Crash Possibly on Drugs
A 2011 study from the Underwriters Laboratory found solar panels, being individual energy producers, could not be easily de-energized from a single point like other electric sources. Researchers recommended throwing a tarp over the panels to block light, but only if crews could safely get to the area.
“Very often they’re not wired like your home, where you have a master breaker. Even if you turn the breaker off, the panels still generate electricity and you need to cover them and prevent any light from getting into them,” Willette said.
Flooding a roof with solar panels also presents access issues that can stop firefighters from making ventilation holes used to extinguish the fire.
Willette says the issues force firefighters to take a defensive approach to fighting the flames by staying away from the building – rather than going inside and attacking the fire source.
Sandy's "Freaky" Path May Be Less Likely in Future
“It definitely impedes the firefighting operation and any time you impede firefighting operation, you slow down suppression efforts,” he said.
Not even covered in that is how most of these arrays are installed post-construction and often weigh more than the roof is designed for. That means an earlier collapse in fire conditions, and when you are dealing with an overloaded roof usually instead of getting the normal collapse warning signs it just catastrophically collapses so you don't have time to get your crews out.
Should be a national standard where structures equipped with solar equipment have some sort of sign or marking visible from the street so when the FD arrives they know to just surround and drown.
Adopt a new policy then: if you have solar panels, we're going to let your house burn down. You forfeit your right to firefighting services.
As for weight issues, I'd like to see documentation on that. Have you ever held a solar panel? They are extremely light. Generally they weigh around 2-3 pounds per square foot. The systems we installed at my previous job were not even remotely close to exceeding the roof's capacity.
Flat roofs are a different story since those often have a ballasted system rather than being screwed directly into the roof's framing, but for standard pitched roofs, weight was not even close to being an issue.
We also built our systems to a standard that was friendly for firemen though, allowing two feet on either side of the roof line for firemen to use in the event of a fire. This cost our clients generation capacity though and we lost many jobs because of this, but we felt it was the right way to install the system. Other installers didn't care, they just wanted as much $ as they could get.
It should be a national standard to build the way we did.
(08-07-2015 09:30 AM)Niner National Wrote: [ -> ] (08-07-2015 08:47 AM)Kaplony Wrote: [ -> ]Great. Yet another "advance" that can kill firefighters.
http://www.nbcphiladelphia.com/news/loca...85811.html
Quote:Ken Willette from the National Fire Protection Association, a nonprofit that develops standards for firefighting, says electrocution is one of the hazards firefighters are increasingly facing fighting blazes at structures where solar panels are deployed.
“Those panels, as long as there’s any kind of light present, whether it’s daylight or it’s electronic lamp light, will generate electricity,” he said.
Limo Driver in Deadly Newlywed Crash Possibly on Drugs
A 2011 study from the Underwriters Laboratory found solar panels, being individual energy producers, could not be easily de-energized from a single point like other electric sources. Researchers recommended throwing a tarp over the panels to block light, but only if crews could safely get to the area.
“Very often they’re not wired like your home, where you have a master breaker. Even if you turn the breaker off, the panels still generate electricity and you need to cover them and prevent any light from getting into them,” Willette said.
Flooding a roof with solar panels also presents access issues that can stop firefighters from making ventilation holes used to extinguish the fire.
Willette says the issues force firefighters to take a defensive approach to fighting the flames by staying away from the building – rather than going inside and attacking the fire source.
Sandy's "Freaky" Path May Be Less Likely in Future
“It definitely impedes the firefighting operation and any time you impede firefighting operation, you slow down suppression efforts,” he said.
Not even covered in that is how most of these arrays are installed post-construction and often weigh more than the roof is designed for. That means an earlier collapse in fire conditions, and when you are dealing with an overloaded roof usually instead of getting the normal collapse warning signs it just catastrophically collapses so you don't have time to get your crews out.
Should be a national standard where structures equipped with solar equipment have some sort of sign or marking visible from the street so when the FD arrives they know to just surround and drown.
Adopt a new policy then: if you have solar panels, we're going to let your house burn down. You forfeit your right to firefighting services.
As for weight issues, I'd like to see documentation on that. Have you ever held a solar panel? They are extremely light. Generally they weigh around 2-3 pounds per square foot. The systems we installed at my previous job were not even remotely close to exceeding the roof's capacity.
Flat roofs are a different story since those often have a ballasted system rather than being screwed directly into the roof's framing, but for standard pitched roofs, weight was not even close to being an issue.
We also built our systems to a standard that was friendly for firemen though, allowing two feet on either side of the roof line for firemen to use in the event of a fire. This cost our clients generation capacity though and we lost many jobs because of this, but we felt it was the right way to install the system. Other installers didn't care, they just wanted as much $ as they could get.
It should be a national standard to build the way we did.
With the modern lightweight pre-fab truss construction it doesn't take much weight. It's a great construction technique for builders because they can build the buildings much faster but they don't hold up under fire conditions and fail much faster than traditionally built rafters.
And while your system is more fireman friendly it's still a hazard. To effectively ventilate a roof we are supposed to open the roof directly over the fire. This not only helps remove smoke, heat, and gases to help the interior crews and any possible victims, but it helps contain the fire because a fire typically isn't going to move away from a direct ventilation exit. Just being able to open at the ridge line means we contribute to the spread of fire into unaffected areas.
Then there is the technique we call a trench cut which serves as a fire break on large open attic areas. You cut a trench in the roof from top to bottom to stop a rapidly spreading fire. With solar panels in place we can't do either without putting our people at risk.
As for being able to forfeit firefighting service....it's probably not going to happen. We have been fighting since the late 1980's for the ability to do that very thing for the lightweight truss roofs.
(08-07-2015 09:30 AM)Niner National Wrote: [ -> ]As for weight issues, I'd like to see documentation on that. Have you ever held a solar panel? They are extremely light. Generally they weigh around 2-3 pounds per square foot. The systems we installed at my previous job were not even remotely close to exceeding the roof's capacity.
I'm curious. Did you firm do an actual engineering analysis on each roof where you installed panels or did you just assume the weight was inconsequential? Was there a wind analysis done to account for the uplift effect that could be generated by wind across the panels?
(08-07-2015 10:12 AM)GeorgeBorkFan Wrote: [ -> ] (08-07-2015 09:30 AM)Niner National Wrote: [ -> ]As for weight issues, I'd like to see documentation on that. Have you ever held a solar panel? They are extremely light. Generally they weigh around 2-3 pounds per square foot. The systems we installed at my previous job were not even remotely close to exceeding the roof's capacity.
I'm curious. Did you firm do an actual engineering analysis on each roof where you installed panels or did you just assume the weight was inconsequential? Was there a wind analysis done to account for the uplift effect that could be generated by wind across the panels?
We did comprehensive roof inspections on every project. If a roof was more than 10 years old, we required them to replace it before we'd do any work on their property unless they wanted a ground mounted system.
(08-07-2015 10:22 AM)Niner National Wrote: [ -> ] (08-07-2015 10:12 AM)GeorgeBorkFan Wrote: [ -> ] (08-07-2015 09:30 AM)Niner National Wrote: [ -> ]As for weight issues, I'd like to see documentation on that. Have you ever held a solar panel? They are extremely light. Generally they weigh around 2-3 pounds per square foot. The systems we installed at my previous job were not even remotely close to exceeding the roof's capacity.
I'm curious. Did you firm do an actual engineering analysis on each roof where you installed panels or did you just assume the weight was inconsequential? Was there a wind analysis done to account for the uplift effect that could be generated by wind across the panels?
We did comprehensive roof inspections on every project. If a roof was more than 10 years old, we required them to replace it before we'd do any work on their property unless they wanted a ground mounted system.
I appreciate that due diligence, but that doesn't define what load the roofing system can hold in the future or is currently holding.
The International Building codes(adopted by most municipalities) now mandate firefighter safety and access for all solar panel installations. They also have specific installation requirements for calculating snow load,wind load etc.
(08-07-2015 12:46 PM)BobL Wrote: [ -> ]The International Building codes(adopted by most municipalities) now mandate firefighter safety and access for all solar panel installations. They also have specific installation requirements for calculating snow load,wind load etc.
Well that's comforting. Building codes written by the same construction industry that brought us the garbage lightweight construction practices in place today.
If I were writing Standing Orders for fires in structures with solar panels installed it would be catch a hydrant and utilize either the deck gun or an elevated master stream. Under absolutely no circumstances would I allow interior operations. Write off the structure and anybody trapped inside.
(08-07-2015 09:30 AM)Niner National Wrote: [ -> ][quote='Kaplony' pid='12256419' dateline='1438955262']
Great. Yet another "advance" that can kill firefighters.
http://www.nbcphiladelphia.com/news/loca...85811.html
Quote:Ken Willette from the National Fire Protection Association, a nonprofit that develops standards for firefighting, says electrocution is one of the hazards firefighters are increasingly facing fighting blazes at structures where solar panels are deployed.
“Those panels, as long as there’s any kind of light present, whether it’s daylight or it’s electronic lamp light, will generate electricity,” he said.
Limo Driver in Deadly Newlywed Crash Possibly on Drugs
A 2011 study from the Underwriters Laboratory found solar panels, being individual energy producers, could not be easily de-energized from a single point like other electric sources. Researchers recommended throwing a tarp over the panels to block light, but only if crews could safely get to the area.
“Very often they’re not wired like your home, where you have a master breaker. Even if you turn the breaker off, the panels still generate electricity and you need to cover them and prevent any light from getting into them,” Willette said.
Flooding a roof with solar panels also presents access issues that can stop firefighters from making ventilation holes used to extinguish the fire.
Willette says the issues force firefighters to take a defensive approach to fighting the flames by staying away from the building – rather than going inside and attacking the fire source.
Sandy's "Freaky" Path May Be Less Likely in Future
“It definitely impedes the firefighting operation and any time you impede firefighting operation, you slow down suppression efforts,” he said.
Not even covered in that is how most of these arrays are installed post-construction and often weigh more than the roof is designed for. That means an earlier collapse in fire conditions, and when you are dealing with an overloaded roof usually instead of getting the normal collapse warning signs it just catastrophically collapses so you don't have time to get your crews out.
Should be a national standard where structures equipped with solar equipment have some sort of sign or marking visible from the street so when the FD arrives they know to just surround and drown.
Adopt a new policy then: if you have solar panels, we're going to let your house burn down. You forfeit your right to firefighting services.
As for weight issues, I'd like to see documentation on that. Have you ever held a solar panel? They are extremely light. Generally they weigh around 2-3 pounds per square foot. The systems we installed at my previous job were not even remotely close to exceeding the roof's capacity.
Flat roofs are a different story since those often have a ballasted system rather than being screwed directly into the roof's framing, but for standard pitched roofs, weight was not even close to being an issue.
We also built our systems to a standard that was friendly for firemen though, allowing two feet on either side of the roof line for firemen to use in the event of a fire. This cost our clients generation capacity though and we lost many jobs because of this, but we felt it was the right way to install the system. Other installers didn't care, they just wanted as much $ as they could get.
It should be a national standard to build the way we did.
[/
Is the 2-3 pounds the installed weight with framing?
If so that's still a 2-3000# (over a 1000 sqft roof) dead load resting on the roof which is nothing to scoff at especially if it's residential.
Also in your comprehensive analysis did you bring in a structural engineer to do said calculations. I would be very surprised if you did.(not saying you didn't just most roofers don't do that)
(08-07-2015 01:16 PM)DragonLair Wrote: [ -> ] (08-07-2015 09:30 AM)Niner National Wrote: [ -> ][quote='Kaplony' pid='12256419' dateline='1438955262']
Great. Yet another "advance" that can kill firefighters.
http://www.nbcphiladelphia.com/news/loca...85811.html
Quote:Ken Willette from the National Fire Protection Association, a nonprofit that develops standards for firefighting, says electrocution is one of the hazards firefighters are increasingly facing fighting blazes at structures where solar panels are deployed.
“Those panels, as long as there’s any kind of light present, whether it’s daylight or it’s electronic lamp light, will generate electricity,” he said.
Limo Driver in Deadly Newlywed Crash Possibly on Drugs
A 2011 study from the Underwriters Laboratory found solar panels, being individual energy producers, could not be easily de-energized from a single point like other electric sources. Researchers recommended throwing a tarp over the panels to block light, but only if crews could safely get to the area.
“Very often they’re not wired like your home, where you have a master breaker. Even if you turn the breaker off, the panels still generate electricity and you need to cover them and prevent any light from getting into them,” Willette said.
Flooding a roof with solar panels also presents access issues that can stop firefighters from making ventilation holes used to extinguish the fire.
Willette says the issues force firefighters to take a defensive approach to fighting the flames by staying away from the building – rather than going inside and attacking the fire source.
Sandy's "Freaky" Path May Be Less Likely in Future
“It definitely impedes the firefighting operation and any time you impede firefighting operation, you slow down suppression efforts,” he said.
Not even covered in that is how most of these arrays are installed post-construction and often weigh more than the roof is designed for. That means an earlier collapse in fire conditions, and when you are dealing with an overloaded roof usually instead of getting the normal collapse warning signs it just catastrophically collapses so you don't have time to get your crews out.
Should be a national standard where structures equipped with solar equipment have some sort of sign or marking visible from the street so when the FD arrives they know to just surround and drown.
Adopt a new policy then: if you have solar panels, we're going to let your house burn down. You forfeit your right to firefighting services.
As for weight issues, I'd like to see documentation on that. Have you ever held a solar panel? They are extremely light. Generally they weigh around 2-3 pounds per square foot. The systems we installed at my previous job were not even remotely close to exceeding the roof's capacity.
Flat roofs are a different story since those often have a ballasted system rather than being screwed directly into the roof's framing, but for standard pitched roofs, weight was not even close to being an issue.
We also built our systems to a standard that was friendly for firemen though, allowing two feet on either side of the roof line for firemen to use in the event of a fire. This cost our clients generation capacity though and we lost many jobs because of this, but we felt it was the right way to install the system. Other installers didn't care, they just wanted as much $ as they could get.
It should be a national standard to build the way we did.
[/
Is the 2-3 pounds the installed weight with framing?
If so that's still a 2-3000# (over a 1000 sqft roof) dead load resting on the roof which is nothing to scoff at especially if it's residential.
Also in your comprehensive analysis did you bring in a structural engineer to do said calculations. I would be very surprised if you did.(not saying you didn't just most roofers don't do that)
I don't know, I just did marketing. We had a team of engineers though, with 1 or 2 of them dedicated to residential projects.
The racking was inconsequential weight. It mostly looked like this for standard roof installations:
![[Image: solar-panel-rack.jpg]](http://c1cleantechnicacom.wpengine.netdna-cdn.com/files/2010/11/solar-panel-rack.jpg)
There really isn't much to the racking systems. Basically just a bracket with a bolt into the panels and a screw into rafter.
Everything had to be inspected after the systems were installed.
I get the sense a lot of people think you can just throw solar panels up on your roof without much oversight, but there was an extensive permitting and inspection process involved. It was time consuming and costly. That part of it actually increased the cost of the projects quite a bit, although I've heard they've streamlined things a lot better now since they're a lot more commonplace than they used to be.
Everything was built the Miami-Dade Hurricane Standards for wind loads (the strictest wind codes in the nation) as well.
(08-07-2015 12:56 PM)Kaplony Wrote: [ -> ] (08-07-2015 12:46 PM)BobL Wrote: [ -> ]The International Building codes(adopted by most municipalities) now mandate firefighter safety and access for all solar panel installations. They also have specific installation requirements for calculating snow load,wind load etc.
Well that's comforting. Building codes written by the same construction industry that brought us the garbage lightweight construction practices in place today.
If I were writing Standing Orders for fires in structures with solar panels installed it would be catch a hydrant and utilize either the deck gun or an elevated master stream. Under absolutely no circumstances would I allow interior operations. Write off the structure and anybody trapped inside.
Most new residential construction I have seen uses light weight engineered components which do pose a threat to firefighters. These homes should certainly be identified so that firefighters know what they are dealing with. They fail much sooner than traditional dimensional lumber construction. the solar panels concern is valid(I am in the construction industry but don't deal with residential construction). I would still think that a traditional dimensional lumber pitched roof with solar panels(say 50% coverage) would be safer than a light weight engineered roof without solar panels. I have no evidence of this just my judgement.
(08-07-2015 01:31 PM)Niner National Wrote: [ -> ] (08-07-2015 01:16 PM)DragonLair Wrote: [ -> ] (08-07-2015 09:30 AM)Niner National Wrote: [ -> ][quote='Kaplony' pid='12256419' dateline='1438955262']
Great. Yet another "advance" that can kill firefighters.
http://www.nbcphiladelphia.com/news/loca...85811.html
Quote:Ken Willette from the National Fire Protection Association, a nonprofit that develops standards for firefighting, says electrocution is one of the hazards firefighters are increasingly facing fighting blazes at structures where solar panels are deployed.
“Those panels, as long as there’s any kind of light present, whether it’s daylight or it’s electronic lamp light, will generate electricity,” he said.
Limo Driver in Deadly Newlywed Crash Possibly on Drugs
A 2011 study from the Underwriters Laboratory found solar panels, being individual energy producers, could not be easily de-energized from a single point like other electric sources. Researchers recommended throwing a tarp over the panels to block light, but only if crews could safely get to the area.
“Very often they’re not wired like your home, where you have a master breaker. Even if you turn the breaker off, the panels still generate electricity and you need to cover them and prevent any light from getting into them,” Willette said.
Flooding a roof with solar panels also presents access issues that can stop firefighters from making ventilation holes used to extinguish the fire.
Willette says the issues force firefighters to take a defensive approach to fighting the flames by staying away from the building – rather than going inside and attacking the fire source.
Sandy's "Freaky" Path May Be Less Likely in Future
“It definitely impedes the firefighting operation and any time you impede firefighting operation, you slow down suppression efforts,” he said.
Not even covered in that is how most of these arrays are installed post-construction and often weigh more than the roof is designed for. That means an earlier collapse in fire conditions, and when you are dealing with an overloaded roof usually instead of getting the normal collapse warning signs it just catastrophically collapses so you don't have time to get your crews out.
Should be a national standard where structures equipped with solar equipment have some sort of sign or marking visible from the street so when the FD arrives they know to just surround and drown.
Adopt a new policy then: if you have solar panels, we're going to let your house burn down. You forfeit your right to firefighting services.
As for weight issues, I'd like to see documentation on that. Have you ever held a solar panel? They are extremely light. Generally they weigh around 2-3 pounds per square foot. The systems we installed at my previous job were not even remotely close to exceeding the roof's capacity.
Flat roofs are a different story since those often have a ballasted system rather than being screwed directly into the roof's framing, but for standard pitched roofs, weight was not even close to being an issue.
We also built our systems to a standard that was friendly for firemen though, allowing two feet on either side of the roof line for firemen to use in the event of a fire. This cost our clients generation capacity though and we lost many jobs because of this, but we felt it was the right way to install the system. Other installers didn't care, they just wanted as much $ as they could get.
It should be a national standard to build the way we did.
[/
Is the 2-3 pounds the installed weight with framing?
If so that's still a 2-3000# (over a 1000 sqft roof) dead load resting on the roof which is nothing to scoff at especially if it's residential.
Also in your comprehensive analysis did you bring in a structural engineer to do said calculations. I would be very surprised if you did.(not saying you didn't just most roofers don't do that)
I don't know, I just did marketing. We had a team of engineers though, with 1 or 2 of them dedicated to residential projects.
The racking was inconsequential weight. It mostly looked like this for standard roof installations:
There really isn't much to the racking systems. Basically just a bracket with a bolt into the panels and a screw into rafter.
Everything had to be inspected after the systems were installed.
I get the sense a lot of people think you can just throw solar panels up on your roof without much oversight, but there was an extensive permitting and inspection process involved. It was time consuming and costly. That part of it actually increased the cost of the projects quite a bit, although I've heard they've streamlined things a lot better now since they're a lot more commonplace than they used to be.
Everything was built the Miami-Dade Hurricane Standards for wind loads (the strictest wind codes in the nation) as well.
I hate Miami dade wind codes. We have only one product that passes there missile impact test. All of products should pass their test as they don't actually penetrate our material but since our material spider cracks, it fails. Complete crap.