.......and I'm pointing a finger at myself here too.
It was going to be very difficult to follow the last 4 years of X and have anything short of (probably) an Elite 8 run within 4 years be 'good enough'.
It doesn't help JP that, beginning with year 2, based on his recruiting classes the Tigers started every season ranked and with the exception of 2012-13 ended the year unranked. (The fans didn't rank the team, the media outlets did and that really fueled expectation.)
With the facilities, salary, and support provided to the basketball program, I don't think the results have quite matched the resources but the program didn't take a nose dive either and has remained fairly relevant.
Personally, I don't give Josh an A or a D/F..... based on the first 5 years I'd go with a B- so far. Missing the tournament this year would (for me) drop him to a C while making the tournament with this team and knowing the studs he has coming in next year would (for me) take him up to a rising B+.
It's a tough job with a large, adoring fan base when you can produce but (like ANY major program) watch out if you don't.
If the above sentence is a problem for any coach then they really don't need to be coaching at any Top 25 program.
He's actually done a decent job when you consider his original lack of experience and low qualifications for such a high-level HC job.
(11-20-2014 10:05 AM)bluebacker Wrote: [ -> ].......and I'm pointing a finger at myself here too.
It was going to be very difficult to follow the last 4 years of X and have anything short of (probably) an Elite 8 run within 4 years be 'good enough'.
It doesn't help JP that, beginning with year 2, based on his recruiting classes the Tigers started every season ranked and with the exception of 2012-13 ended the year unranked. (The fans didn't rank the team, the media outlets did and that really fueled expectation.)
With the facilities, salary, and support provided to the basketball program, I don't think the results have quite matched the resources but the program didn't take a nose dive either and has remained fairly relevant.
Personally, I don't give Josh an A or a D/F..... based on the first 5 years I'd go with a B- so far. Missing the tournament this year would (for me) drop him to a C while making the tournament with this team and knowing the studs he has coming in next year would (for me) take him up to a rising B+.
It's a tough job with a large, adoring fan base when you can produce but (like ANY major program) watch out if you don't.
If the above sentence is a problem for any coach then they really don't need to be coaching at any Top 25 program.
I agree with this to a point.
I think the issue a lot of fans have now and have had is that there appears to be no coherent offensive or defensive schemes, no sense of urgency, a lacking physicality, etc.
Losing is one thing, but when a lot of your losses are just low IQ, bumbling affairs, it does tend to take its toll.
I think a lot of fans would be fine with 22-9 seasons as long as the team left it all on the court in most respects.
Quote:Losing is one thing, but when a lot of your losses are just low IQ, bumbling affairs, it does tend to take its toll.
I think a lot of fans would be fine with 22-9 seasons as long as the team left it all on the court in most respects.
can't disagree with that.
(11-20-2014 10:13 AM)HoopDreams Wrote: [ -> ] (11-20-2014 10:05 AM)bluebacker Wrote: [ -> ].......and I'm pointing a finger at myself here too.
It was going to be very difficult to follow the last 4 years of X and have anything short of (probably) an Elite 8 run within 4 years be 'good enough'.
It doesn't help JP that, beginning with year 2, based on his recruiting classes the Tigers started every season ranked and with the exception of 2012-13 ended the year unranked. (The fans didn't rank the team, the media outlets did and that really fueled expectation.)
With the facilities, salary, and support provided to the basketball program, I don't think the results have quite matched the resources but the program didn't take a nose dive either and has remained fairly relevant.
Personally, I don't give Josh an A or a D/F..... based on the first 5 years I'd go with a B- so far. Missing the tournament this year would (for me) drop him to a C while making the tournament with this team and knowing the studs he has coming in next year would (for me) take him up to a rising B+.
It's a tough job with a large, adoring fan base when you can produce but (like ANY major program) watch out if you don't.
If the above sentence is a problem for any coach then they really don't need to be coaching at any Top 25 program.
I agree with this to a point.
I think the issue a lot of fans have now and have had is that there appears to be no coherent offensive or defensive schemes, no sense of urgency, a lacking physicality, etc.
Losing is one thing, but when a lot of your losses are just low IQ, bumbling affairs, it does tend to take its toll.
I think a lot of fans would be fine with 22-9 seasons as long as the team left it all on the court in most respects.
This should be a forum sticky thread.
This sums up the issue in one post.
I'm fine with the W-L, I'm fine with Pastner as a person, I'm fine with a lot of things about the program but the lack of bball IQ, effort, defensive schemes, and offensive sets year in and year out is disconcerting. I let it go as a learning process and Pastner "growing" into the role for years but it's time to get it fixed.
Those who don't see these issues are either being dishonest with themselves or just don't know what's going on - you don't have to be a coach to see these glaring problems with Pastner's teams.
(11-20-2014 10:13 AM)HoopDreams Wrote: [ -> ] (11-20-2014 10:05 AM)bluebacker Wrote: [ -> ].......and I'm pointing a finger at myself here too.
It was going to be very difficult to follow the last 4 years of X and have anything short of (probably) an Elite 8 run within 4 years be 'good enough'.
It doesn't help JP that, beginning with year 2, based on his recruiting classes the Tigers started every season ranked and with the exception of 2012-13 ended the year unranked. (The fans didn't rank the team, the media outlets did and that really fueled expectation.)
With the facilities, salary, and support provided to the basketball program, I don't think the results have quite matched the resources but the program didn't take a nose dive either and has remained fairly relevant.
Personally, I don't give Josh an A or a D/F..... based on the first 5 years I'd go with a B- so far. Missing the tournament this year would (for me) drop him to a C while making the tournament with this team and knowing the studs he has coming in next year would (for me) take him up to a rising B+.
It's a tough job with a large, adoring fan base when you can produce but (like ANY major program) watch out if you don't.
If the above sentence is a problem for any coach then they really don't need to be coaching at any Top 25 program.
I agree with this to a point.
I think the issue a lot of fans have now and have had is that there appears to be no coherent offensive or defensive schemes, no sense of urgency, a lacking physicality, etc.
Losing is one thing, but when a lot of your losses are just low IQ, bumbling affairs, it does tend to take its toll.
I think a lot of fans would be fine with 22-9 seasons as long as the team left it all on the court in most respects.
22-9 would be fine if along the way you beat a Wichita State, OK State, Baylor, or a Gonzaga and if you are near impossible to beat at home, especially in conference games. Win a couple of those out of conference games above and get into position to go to the NCAA.
In this conference, this program should make the NCAAs every year.
Some people will hold to that line of thinking because it makes them feel better.
It all started with RC guaranteeing he would make a "home run" hire. He frequently noted he carried a "list" of coaches on the ready.
If Memphis truly did throw a bone to Pitino, then that was the only big person they went after. The problem is RC really had no clue who he wanted after that. The fact that Tim Floyd was even a consideration shows how messed up the search was.
Like most any other search, what the fanbase "wants" and what is really available are two different things. RC was seemingly caught up in the pressure an ended up looking the the principal in "Summer School" desperately running from car to car until he stumbled upon Shoop.
(11-20-2014 10:05 AM)bluebacker Wrote: [ -> ].......and I'm pointing a finger at myself here too.
It was going to be very difficult to follow the last 4 years of X and have anything short of (probably) an Elite 8 run within 4 years be 'good enough'.
It doesn't help JP that, beginning with year 2, based on his recruiting classes the Tigers started every season ranked and with the exception of 2012-13 ended the year unranked. (The fans didn't rank the team, the media outlets did and that really fueled expectation.)
With the facilities, salary, and support provided to the basketball program, I don't think the results have quite matched the resources but the program didn't take a nose dive either and has remained fairly relevant.
Personally, I don't give Josh an A or a D/F..... based on the first 5 years I'd go with a B- so far. Missing the tournament this year would (for me) drop him to a C while making the tournament with this team and knowing the studs he has coming in next year would (for me) take him up to a rising B+.
It's a tough job with a large, adoring fan base when you can produce but (like ANY major program) watch out if you don't.
If the above sentence is a problem for any coach then they really don't need to be coaching at any Top 25 program.
But given the pay/facilities/fanbase/recruiting base/conference, going over SIX YEARS without getting to the Sweet 16 is pretty much grounds for termination. CJP has to get it done this year or cut the chord.
Let's put it this way: another first round NCAA exit this year (assuming we go and that's a big assumption) and Nichols says he's bolting to the NBA. What gives us any signal that 2016 will be any different?
I recognize that Cal did not get us where we all wanted during his first 5 years (or so). BUT, we did have very good attendance, national recognition and Cal had proven that he could already take a commuter-campus university (UMASS) to the Final Four.
Now, CJP is in his sixth year. Apathy seems to be creeping in and to be honest, the Grizz's momentum is palpable. Keeping CJP on another year (if he doesn't make the Sweet 16) would be just asking for more apathy.
The Memphis job IS a top-25 job. I cannot think of 25 programs that have better jobs than the Memphis job. A Sweet 16 every 3 years is NOT asking too much for what we pay, etc..
With no NCAA investigation looming, the apparent willingness to pay just about anyone 2 million per year and a loaded roster, we'd be able to get a pretty good coach in here. Bet money.
(11-20-2014 10:33 AM)salukiblue Wrote: [ -> ]Some people will hold to that line of thinking because it makes them feel better.
It all started with RC guaranteeing he would make a "home run" hire. He frequently noted he carried a "list" of coaches on the ready.
If Memphis truly did throw a bone to Pitino, then that was the only big person they went after. The problem is RC really had no clue who he wanted after that. The fact that Tim Floyd was even a consideration shows how messed up the search was.
Like most any other search, what the fanbase "wants" and what is really available are two different things. RC was seemingly caught up in the pressure an ended up looking the the principal in "Summer School" desperately running from car to car until he stumbled upon Shoop.
We at least approached all of the names below, so not true...
Rick Pitino
Avery Johnson
Mike Anderson
Sean Miller
Lon Kruger
(11-20-2014 02:07 PM)MemphisCanes Wrote: [ -> ]With no NCAA investigation looming, the apparent willingness to pay just about anyone 2 million per year and a loaded roster, we'd be able to get a pretty good coach in here. Bet money.
Agreed...
Also I agree with the statement that I have no problem with how many games he has won and lost...Heck I would be OK if we lost more games if it seemed like we were playing basketball with a purpose. Since Pastner has been here we have been a frustrating team to watch (win or lose)
(11-20-2014 02:07 PM)MemphisCanes Wrote: [ -> ]With no NCAA investigation looming, the apparent willingness to pay just about anyone 2 million per year and a loaded roster, we'd be able to get a pretty good coach in here. Bet money.
It sounds redundant, but it depends on who is available and what else is open. Sometimes there are a lot of candidates, other times, no. We were literally the only decent job that was open when Cal took it. He was either going to be the coach at Memphis, or an NBA assistant to Larry Brown. On the other side of the search; it was either going to be Cal or Johnny Jones.
One thing that seems almost sure, is that it won't be an established D1 coach with a track record of success. It will more than likely be a top flight assistant or a coach from a mid major that makes it to the Sweet 16 as a 12 seed.
(11-20-2014 02:15 PM)macgar32 Wrote: [ -> ] (11-20-2014 02:07 PM)MemphisCanes Wrote: [ -> ]With no NCAA investigation looming, the apparent willingness to pay just about anyone 2 million per year and a loaded roster, we'd be able to get a pretty good coach in here. Bet money.
Agreed...
Also I agree with the statement that I have no problem with how many games he has won and lost...Heck I would be OK if we lost more games if it seemed like we were playing basketball with a purpose. Since Pastner has been here we have been a frustrating team to watch (win or lose)
I hate to be this guy (the one that talks about what he subjectively feels rather than what the stats and numbers say) but the manner in which we lose games right now is the main gripe for everyone.
Think about last year's losses, and replace the blowout, run-away games against Okie State, UConn, SMU and Viriginia with games that came down to the final 5 minutes or so. Do the same with WSU last week.
I think our fanbase would be pretty happy with where we were, even with the same W/L record and progress in March. Simply because the team is out there competing night in and night out. The staff would appear to have a handle on things.
(11-20-2014 02:16 PM)Stammers Wrote: [ -> ] (11-20-2014 02:07 PM)MemphisCanes Wrote: [ -> ]With no NCAA investigation looming, the apparent willingness to pay just about anyone 2 million per year and a loaded roster, we'd be able to get a pretty good coach in here. Bet money.
It sounds redundant, but it depends on who is available and what else is open. Sometimes there are a lot of candidates, other times, no. We were literally the only decent job that was open when Cal took it. He was either going to be the coach at Memphis, or an NBA assistant to Larry Brown. On the other side of the search; it was either going to be Cal or Johnny Jones.
One thing that seems almost sure, is that it won't be an established D1 coach with a track record of success. It will more than likely be a top flight assistant or a coach from a mid major that makes it to the Sweet 16 as a 12 seed.
I don't want to turn this into a "name the coaching candidates" thread, but there are lots of young HCs out there at lesser programs who could do great here, especially with a loaded assistant staff.
(11-20-2014 02:16 PM)Stammers Wrote: [ -> ] (11-20-2014 02:07 PM)MemphisCanes Wrote: [ -> ]With no NCAA investigation looming, the apparent willingness to pay just about anyone 2 million per year and a loaded roster, we'd be able to get a pretty good coach in here. Bet money.
It sounds redundant, but it depends on who is available and what else is open. Sometimes there are a lot of candidates, other times, no. We were literally the only decent job that was open when Cal took it. He was either going to be the coach at Memphis, or an NBA assistant to Larry Brown. On the other side of the search; it was either going to be Cal or Johnny Jones.
One thing that seems almost sure, is that it won't be an established D1 coach with a track record of success. It will more than likely be a top flight assistant or a coach from a mid major that makes it to the Sweet 16 as a 12 seed.
Very good insight.
Do you not think Pearl/Buzz are options (for the sake or the argument).
Or it would be someone like Anthony Grant...?
Andy Kennedy wants the job.
(11-20-2014 02:22 PM)HometownTiger Wrote: [ -> ] (11-20-2014 02:16 PM)Stammers Wrote: [ -> ] (11-20-2014 02:07 PM)MemphisCanes Wrote: [ -> ]With no NCAA investigation looming, the apparent willingness to pay just about anyone 2 million per year and a loaded roster, we'd be able to get a pretty good coach in here. Bet money.
It sounds redundant, but it depends on who is available and what else is open. Sometimes there are a lot of candidates, other times, no. We were literally the only decent job that was open when Cal took it. He was either going to be the coach at Memphis, or an NBA assistant to Larry Brown. On the other side of the search; it was either going to be Cal or Johnny Jones.
One thing that seems almost sure, is that it won't be an established D1 coach with a track record of success. It will more than likely be a top flight assistant or a coach from a mid major that makes it to the Sweet 16 as a 12 seed.
Very good insight.
Do you not think Pearl/Buzz are options (for the sake or the argument).
Or it would be someone like Anthony Grant...?
I'd say Pearl and Buzz would both listen. I'm not sold on Anthony Grant, but he would listen too. He may do very well here, but the SEC has been wideopen for years now and he hasn't seized a dominant position. Watch what Pearl does with the down SEC this season or next and we may get the picture of how overrated Grant is.
(11-20-2014 02:25 PM)TigerTimmy Wrote: [ -> ]Andy Kennedy wants the job.
Pass.
(11-20-2014 10:33 AM)salukiblue Wrote: [ -> ]Some people will hold to that line of thinking because it makes them feel better.
It all started with RC guaranteeing he would make a "home run" hire. He frequently noted he carried a "list" of coaches on the ready.
If Memphis truly did throw a bone to Pitino, then that was the only big person they went after. The problem is RC really had no clue who he wanted after that. The fact that Tim Floyd was even a consideration shows how messed up the search was.
Like most any other search, what the fanbase "wants" and what is really available are two different things. RC was seemingly caught up in the pressure an ended up looking the the principal in "Summer School" desperately running from car to car until he stumbled upon Shoop.
I cringe every time I see those initials.
(11-20-2014 02:20 PM)MemphisCanes Wrote: [ -> ] (11-20-2014 02:15 PM)macgar32 Wrote: [ -> ] (11-20-2014 02:07 PM)MemphisCanes Wrote: [ -> ]With no NCAA investigation looming, the apparent willingness to pay just about anyone 2 million per year and a loaded roster, we'd be able to get a pretty good coach in here. Bet money.
Agreed...
Also I agree with the statement that I have no problem with how many games he has won and lost...Heck I would be OK if we lost more games if it seemed like we were playing basketball with a purpose. Since Pastner has been here we have been a frustrating team to watch (win or lose)
I hate to be this guy (the one that talks about what he subjectively feels rather than what the stats and numbers say) but the manner in which we lose games right now is the main gripe for everyone.
Think about last year's losses, and replace the blowout, run-away games against Okie State, UConn, SMU and Viriginia with games that came down to the final 5 minutes or so. Do the same with WSU last week.
I think our fanbase would be pretty happy with where we were, even with the same W/L record and progress in March. Simply because the team is out there competing night in and night out. The staff would appear to have a handle on things.
I agree, I was fine after our game in NYC against Florida because that night I thought we could play with anyone. Everyone gets beat and if you play enough top teams you will lose your share. But know it seems like we have a program that it shocks people to actually win and most see the blow outs coming a mile away. We just do not have any identity, he just reacts to the latest situation.