Much has been made of Liberty suing to be allowed to move to FBS without a conference invite. Whether it would be successful or not, it would be costly.
Since Liberty is supposed to be flush with cash, money is available. A lawsuit might cost $10-$20 million in legal fees, with no guarantee of success. Even if successful, Liberty would still have to complete a schedule, likely having to buy home games (say, $3M/year).
Instead of that:
Offer the Sun Belt $10 million/year to be an affiliate for 3 years.
This would get them through the transition period (same as UMass and the MAC).
After that, one of three things could happen:
1) Liberty is invited as a full member
2) Liberty continues as a football affiliate
3) Liberty goes independent.
Sun Belt gets a 12th member for a championship game
Gives other schools that the SB may want more like Missouri State time to upgrade.
Liberty gets FBS, and 4 home conference games a year.
Why couldn't Mormon Megabucks buy $BYU$ into the PAC?
To be honest, I think the Sun Belt is far more concerned that Liberty would eat us alive financially...
(09-12-2014 05:21 PM)dbackjon Wrote: [ -> ]Why couldn't Liberty (or any other school) "buy" their way into FBS
This would never actually happen, but...
The Sun Belt has 11 FB teams. They could sell a FB-only, 12th spot in their FB lineup to the highest bidder, Liberty, UMass, James Madison, whomever. Start the bidding at $10 million/year plus travel expenses for each of the four Sun Belt teams that would have to play on the road each year at the winning bidder's home stadium. SBC can cancel at any time with 12 months' notice. The winning bidder gets no share of SBC revenue. The SBC also gets a FB title game out of the deal, more money they don't have to share with the winning bidder. If the SBC really wanted to turn the screws and generate more revenue, they could tell NMSU and Idaho that they also have to pay the same "rent" for their FB-only memberships.
Alas, the prospect of media backlash and negative reaction from the academic community would lead the SBC presidents to nix the idea before it ever got off the ground.
There were some comments made after the FCS move-up deadline passed this year that there had been a school that had offered a very significant entry fee to join and it was declined.
Now make me president of a Sun Belt school and my consulting firm in the Caymans will be happy to advise you of what you need to do to join. :)
Buying a spot into a conference would at least show that a school wants to be there while providing funds to benefit the conference. I want Liberty to go FBS as soon as possible but think litigation is suicide even if you win. Heck you might as well try to buy into the Big 12 or convince the SEC or Big Ten to get into the state of Virginia! Day dream big.
The reality of it all is that for any of the conferences out there, there exist schools that would fit in a number of ways but for one reason or another the members do not or would not want to make that school an equity member.
Take Tulane and the Big XII. Academics? Heck yeah. Geography? Great addition. But do Big XII teams want to go to 12 and share 1/12th of the equity and the benefits of that with Tulane? Probably not because Tulane isn't likely to contribute enough to make the financial balance sheet attractive.
An enhanced entry fee would be a perfectly logical response. We like what you bring in other areas but make us whole for bringing you in over the long-term.
For some schools there just isn't such a dollar figure but in certain cases it would make perfect sense.
Liberty can't buy its way in because it doesn't have the money.
According to US News, Liberty's endowment is $101 million. That's just about average for a Sun Belt team, below average for C-USA, and below every school in the MAC, MWC, or AAC other than EMU and NIU.
Even if they were allowed to buy their way in, they'd have to abandon their educational mission in order to afford it.
(09-14-2014 01:53 PM)arkstfan Wrote: [ -> ]The reality of it all is that for any of the conferences out there, there exist schools that would fit in a number of ways but for one reason or another the members do not or would not want to make that school an equity member.
Take Tulane and the Big XII. Academics? Heck yeah. Geography? Great addition. But do Big XII teams want to go to 12 and share 1/12th of the equity and the benefits of that with Tulane? Probably not because Tulane isn't likely to contribute enough to make the financial balance sheet attractive.
An enhanced entry fee would be a perfectly logical response. We like what you bring in other areas but make us whole for bringing you in over the long-term.
For some schools there just isn't such a dollar figure but in certain cases it would make perfect sense.
I understand why the Sun Belt (or any conference doesn't want Liberty) and I understand and support their decision. I sure as heck don't agree with it but I have the same feelings about not wanting to be in a conference that invites members that I wouldn't want Liberty to be associated with. Conferences are cliques, all with different requirements to be considered whether their criteria is geared towards academics, football, media markets, or whatever.
(09-14-2014 03:23 PM)Captain Bearcat Wrote: [ -> ]Liberty can't buy its way in because it doesn't have the money.
According to US News, Liberty's endowment is $101 million. That's just about average for a Sun Belt team, below average for C-USA, and below every school in the MAC, MWC, or AAC other than EMU and NIU.
Even if they were allowed to buy their way in, they'd have to abandon their educational mission in order to afford it.
Liberty doesn't have a strong endowment but they sure have a lot of cash that isn't earmarked so they can spend it on anything. Money is currently not a problem for Liberty.
If buying their way into a conference was a reasonable possibility, I bet Grand Canyon would throw every dollar they have and a bunch they don't at someone down the line, especially if they start football.
They just are not wanted nor would they add any value.
(09-14-2014 03:41 PM)GE and MTS Wrote: [ -> ] (09-14-2014 03:23 PM)Captain Bearcat Wrote: [ -> ]Liberty can't buy its way in because it doesn't have the money.
According to US News, Liberty's endowment is $101 million. That's just about average for a Sun Belt team, below average for C-USA, and below every school in the MAC, MWC, or AAC other than EMU and NIU.
Even if they were allowed to buy their way in, they'd have to abandon their educational mission in order to afford it.
Liberty doesn't have a strong endowment but they sure have a lot of cash that isn't earmarked so they can spend it on anything. Money is currently not a problem for Liberty.
Just because it's not earmarked doesn't mean that it's higher than other schools. It just means that Liberty's budget is more flexible. I highly doubt that they're in the $500 million range of most lower-tier FBS schools, let alone the $1-3 billion like most P5/UC/UConn/Temple/USF/UCF/Rice. Even if they are, they have to provide a service to their students in exchange for that revenue, just like everyone else does. Unlike almost everyone else in FBS, they don't have a big endowment to provide revenue (from the interest) or to fall back on for big capital improvements.
Which means that what I said is true: "they'd have to abandon their educational mission in order to afford it."
To join an FBS Conference, though you need some combination of:
- Good Academics (to make up for falling a bit short on the next ones)
- Good amount of Fans for D1AA
- Good consistent winning record in D1AA
- Good university 'name' (for potential fans/fan increase)
- Good amount of $$ to be promised to put in to expand football program
Buffalo joined the MAC and they were so-so D1AA. But they're a good college in many respects that brought them in + expanding their football program.
UMass joined the MAC as a so-so D1AA, but they're a big name -- namely a basketball school, and obviously a great college, while playing in a pro stadium.
Marshall joined the MAC as a power D1AA (like how ND-State is now) -- that alone will bring ya in.
Central Florida joined the MAC as an up-and-coming program, expanding to be big.
Liberty. What the hell are they bringing to the table? A bible and a few pews?
(09-14-2014 07:28 PM)toddjnsn Wrote: [ -> ]To join an FBS Conference, though you need some combination of:
- Good Academics (to make up for falling a bit short on the next ones)
- Good amount of Fans for D1AA
- Good consistent winning record in D1AA
- Good university 'name' (for potential fans/fan increase)
- Good amount of $$ to be promised to put in to expand football program
Buffalo joined the MAC and they were so-so D1AA. But they're a good college in many respects that brought them in + expanding their football program.
UMass joined the MAC as a so-so D1AA, but they're a big name -- namely a basketball school, and obviously a great college, while playing in a pro stadium.
Marshall joined the MAC as a power D1AA (like how ND-State is now) -- that alone will bring ya in.
Central Florida joined the MAC as an up-and-coming program, expanding to be big.
Liberty. What the hell are they bringing to the table? A bible and a few pews?
LU isn't perfect but they do satisfy most of those things on your list for entry into the SBC. The only thing is the rep of the school name isn't exactly stellar for well known reasons. I know folks tend to gravitate toward opinions not based on factual information, I do it too. Just go to the 2015 US News University Rankings and look up LU's rank. Then look up other SBC schools rankings. LU would be a good fit for the SBC. It's the Christian aspect some people can't get over. Look at AStates issue with the crosses on FB players helmets. That's just a sticker on a helmet....LOL.
The only way I see LU getting into a FBS conference is if realignment happens again and almost wipes out one of the G5. But not to the point were it has to fold in on itself just enough to make them panic to add schools. The one thing I keep wondering is how can schools keep moving up to a FBS conference with no new FBS conferences being made. Most of the FBS conferences are pretty much full or too big. At some point there will be no room for a FCS school to move up to FBS no matter how ready they think they are. Not unless 16 member conferences becomes the norm. Which in my opinion is too big.
(09-14-2014 07:28 PM)toddjnsn Wrote: [ -> ]To join an FBS Conference, though you need some combination of:
- Good Academics (to make up for falling a bit short on the next ones)
- Good amount of Fans for D1AA
- Good consistent winning record in D1AA
- Good university 'name' (for potential fans/fan increase)
- Good amount of $$ to be promised to put in to expand football program
Buffalo joined the MAC and they were so-so D1AA. But they're a good college in many respects that brought them in + expanding their football program.
UMass joined the MAC as a so-so D1AA, but they're a big name -- namely a basketball school, and obviously a great college, while playing in a pro stadium.
Marshall joined the MAC as a power D1AA (like how ND-State is now) -- that alone will bring ya in.
Central Florida joined the MAC as an up-and-coming program, expanding to be big.
Liberty. What the hell are they bringing to the table? A bible and a few pews?
Liberty has made a good investment in facilities.
But their school politics aren't the only strike.
By point of reference.
When Troy was moving up as independent the Sun Belt didn't want to add them. When the press was asking why they league didn't grab them the commissioner referred to them as "low hanging fruit" ie. we have bigger aspirations and no matter what happens, Troy is there for the picking later if we want them.
The NCAA changed the rules on what you have to have to be a conference and when the need arose, the Sun Belt plucked the easy apple off the tree.
What was the hang-up about adding Troy? One, they were going to be the smallest enrollment public member of the league when measured by those attending the main campus. They had a really large overall enrollment because of distance learning programs all over the place. There was concern that Troy didn't fit academically because they have a different mission in those large off-campus programs and there was concern those students thousands of miles away would end up subsidizing the program.
Then there was the issue that they would be a second open admission school in the league.
While everyone tends to focus on Liberty's religious nature, they present the same concerns Troy presented. Large off-campus population and open admission (though the profile of their average on-campus freshman is quite good, they end up being informally selective based on lack of capacity to accomodate all qualified applicants for on-campus)
(09-15-2014 12:13 AM)Curtisc83 Wrote: [ -> ] (09-14-2014 07:28 PM)toddjnsn Wrote: [ -> ]To join an FBS Conference, though you need some combination of:
- Good Academics (to make up for falling a bit short on the next ones)
- Good amount of Fans for D1AA
- Good consistent winning record in D1AA
- Good university 'name' (for potential fans/fan increase)
- Good amount of $$ to be promised to put in to expand football program
Buffalo joined the MAC and they were so-so D1AA. But they're a good college in many respects that brought them in + expanding their football program.
UMass joined the MAC as a so-so D1AA, but they're a big name -- namely a basketball school, and obviously a great college, while playing in a pro stadium.
Marshall joined the MAC as a power D1AA (like how ND-State is now) -- that alone will bring ya in.
Central Florida joined the MAC as an up-and-coming program, expanding to be big.
Liberty. What the hell are they bringing to the table? A bible and a few pews?
LU isn't perfect but they do satisfy most of those things on your list for entry into the SBC. The only thing is the rep of the school name isn't exactly stellar for well known reasons. I know folks tend to gravitate toward opinions not based on factual information, I do it too. Just go to the 2015 US News University Rankings and look up LU's rank. Then look up other SBC schools rankings. LU would be a good fit for the SBC. It's the Christian aspect some people can't get over.
What you say probably has an element of truth. I know I was surprised to hear that Liberty had 13,000 students living on-campus.
But the thing you're forgetting is: in order to get an invite, you have to be clearly in the upper tier of that conference. If you have only the minimum qualifications of the conference then you'll only get in if they're desperate to add someone. Some examples - the MAC didn't need to add Buffalo or UMass, but they're both clearly in the top of the MAC academically. The SEC didn't have to add TAMU; they only did because they're TAMU. But the SEC added Missouri because they needed a partner for TAMU, and they never would have added Missouri on their own.
Is the Sun belt desperate for another member? I don't think they are. If they really want a 12th, I think that New Mexico State, UMass, James Madison, or Delaware would be higher on their radar than Liberty.
Liberty's biggest problem is that the school itself is deeply polarizing. Plus, 90% of its students are online.
(09-15-2014 10:37 AM)Captain Bearcat Wrote: [ -> ] (09-15-2014 12:13 AM)Curtisc83 Wrote: [ -> ] (09-14-2014 07:28 PM)toddjnsn Wrote: [ -> ]To join an FBS Conference, though you need some combination of:
- Good Academics (to make up for falling a bit short on the next ones)
- Good amount of Fans for D1AA
- Good consistent winning record in D1AA
- Good university 'name' (for potential fans/fan increase)
- Good amount of $$ to be promised to put in to expand football program
Buffalo joined the MAC and they were so-so D1AA. But they're a good college in many respects that brought them in + expanding their football program.
UMass joined the MAC as a so-so D1AA, but they're a big name -- namely a basketball school, and obviously a great college, while playing in a pro stadium.
Marshall joined the MAC as a power D1AA (like how ND-State is now) -- that alone will bring ya in.
Central Florida joined the MAC as an up-and-coming program, expanding to be big.
Liberty. What the hell are they bringing to the table? A bible and a few pews?
LU isn't perfect but they do satisfy most of those things on your list for entry into the SBC. The only thing is the rep of the school name isn't exactly stellar for well known reasons. I know folks tend to gravitate toward opinions not based on factual information, I do it too. Just go to the 2015 US News University Rankings and look up LU's rank. Then look up other SBC schools rankings. LU would be a good fit for the SBC. It's the Christian aspect some people can't get over.
What you say probably has an element of truth. I know I was surprised to hear that Liberty had 13,000 students living on-campus.
But the thing you're forgetting is: in order to get an invite, you have to be clearly in the upper tier of that conference. If you have only the minimum qualifications of the conference then you'll only get in if they're desperate to add someone. Some examples - the MAC didn't need to add Buffalo or UMass, but they're both clearly in the top of the MAC academically. The SEC didn't have to add TAMU; they only did because they're TAMU. But the SEC added Missouri because they needed a partner for TAMU, and they never would have added Missouri on their own.
Is the Sun belt desperate for another member? I don't think they are. If they really want a 12th, I think that New Mexico State, UMass, James Madison, or Delaware would be higher on their radar than Liberty.
I think you hit the nail on the head. Hopefully realignment causes LU to be on someone's radar but if not that's ok. If FBS isn't going to happen LU should just focus on moving up the US News rankings and becoming the best FCS team in it's conference.
That 13k on-campus student number should be about 20k at the end of this decade. LU has only built one of six new luxury dorms. Each one will hold over 1k students. It's part of the ongoing campus construction/upgrades.
(09-15-2014 10:51 AM)HeartOfDixie Wrote: [ -> ]Liberty's biggest problem is that the school itself is deeply polarizing. Plus, 90% of its students are online.
I don't think the online thing is the issue. Distance learning has become pretty normal these days. 10 years ago it wasn't but now lots of schools have started online programs in one form or another. With decreasing budgets and inflated bills schools have to find a way to bridge the gap. Online is the future, it's hard to deny that. But I do agree the polarizing thing is a huge issue. In fact I think it's LU's main issue.