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Was watching Sportscenter a few minutes ago and they have Big 12 commissioner Bob Bowlsby on live. Yesterday, Bowlsby had said that he supported paying all P5 college athletes the same cost of attendance/stipend and his rationale was that they all put in the same effort - a basketball stud doesn't practice or work any harder than a women's volleyball player or a wrestler, which in economics terms is an articulation of a "labor theory of value", meaning the belief that the worth of a product or service is determined by the quantity of labor or effort that is expended to create it. Thus, it doesn't matter that a wrestler brings in no revenue while a basketball star may be the reason that thousands of tickets are sold, since they both put in the same amount of work and sweat, their efforts should be valued (paid) equally.

But Jay Bilas mentioned the hypocrisy involved: If all P5 college athletes should get the same stipend because they all work equally hard, then why is it OK that in his office, Bowlsby is paid $1.8 million per year while his secretary, who works just as hard as he does, is paid 20 times less?

It was fun watching Bowlsby try to weasel his way out of the conundrum of having to either (a) admit his salary and his custodian's pay should be equalized, or (b) say that he works 20x harder than his secretary does.

So what did he say? First, Bowlsby said that the college athletic system is "voluntary" and "maybe not for everyone", in other words, "well, if you are an athlete and you are smart enough to recognize the hypocrisy of our policies and don't like them, then go do something else with your life". Then, he talked about the need for the NFL and NBA to start there own minor league systems like baseball to accommodate star football and basketball players who might chafe at making the same peanuts as the volleyball players.

Maybe he has a point, though (a) that could be slitting his own throat, since one reason college baseball is far less popular than football or basketball is because the best 18-22 year old baseball players are in farm systems not college, which could mean that NFL/NBA minor leagues that drained away talent would result in a significant drop in viewership of college football and basketball leading to much less money for his conference, and (b) even if the NBA and NFL did set up minor leagues, that wouldn't change the fact that college football and basketball would still be more popular than volleyball and thus we still have his labor theory of value hypocrisy to address.

Finally, he claimed that if college athlete scholarships and stipends were based on revenue generation and not effort, then these athletes would not be "students" or "amateurs" anymore but rather employees of the university, which he is emphatically against. But, this doesn't address the problem either: Whether someone is called an amateur on a stipend* or an employee, there is still the issue of whether they should be compensated based on effort or revenue generated.

Anyway, it was fun watching him twist in the wind on that one. 07-coffee3



* The real paradox here is that if an athlete is truly an amateur, then they would get no compensation at all. The whole idea of an "athletic scholarship" is a nonesuch, and means the athletes are not amateurs. Club sports are amateur sports, scholarship sports are not.
Quote:"well, if you are an athlete and you are smart enough to recognize the hypocrisy of our policies and don't like them, then go do something else with your life".

Unfortunately, that pretty much sums up the attitude of most of the "adults" involved in college athletics.
(08-08-2014 10:23 AM)quo vadis Wrote: [ -> ]Was watching Sportscenter a few minutes ago and they have Big 12 commissioner Bob Bowlsby on live. Yesterday, Bowlsby had said that he supported paying all P5 college athletes the same cost of attendance/stipend and his rationale was that they all put in the same effort - a basketball stud doesn't practice or work any harder than a women's volleyball player or a wrestler, which in economics terms is an articulation of a "labor theory of value", meaning the belief that the worth of a product or service is determined by the quantity of labor or effort that is expended to create it. Thus, it doesn't matter that a wrestler brings in no revenue while a basketball star may be the reason that thousands of tickets are sold, since they both put in the same amount of work and sweat, their efforts should be valued (paid) equally.

But Jay Bilas mentioned the hypocrisy involved: If all P5 college athletes should get the same stipend because they all work equally hard, then why is it OK that in his office, Bowlsby is paid $1.8 million per year while his secretary, who works just as hard as he does, is paid 20 times less?

It was fun watching Bowlsby try to weasel his way out of the conundrum of having to either (a) admit his salary and his custodian's pay should be equalized, or (b) say that he works 20x harder than his secretary does.

So what did he say? First, Bowlsby said that the college athletic system is "voluntary" and "maybe not for everyone", in other words, "well, if you are an athlete and you are smart enough to recognize the hypocrisy of our policies and don't like them, then go do something else with your life". Then, he talked about the need for the NFL and NBA to start there own minor league systems like baseball to accommodate star football and basketball players who might chafe at making the same peanuts as the volleyball players.

Maybe he has a point, though (a) that could be slitting his own throat, since one reason college baseball is far less popular than football or basketball is because the best 18-22 year old baseball players are in farm systems not college, which could mean that NFL/NBA minor leagues that drained away talent would result in a significant drop in viewership of college football and basketball leading to much less money for his conference, and (b) even if the NBA and NFL did set up minor leagues, that wouldn't change the fact that college football and basketball would still be more popular than volleyball and thus we still have his labor theory of value hypocrisy to address.

Finally, he claimed that if college athlete scholarships and stipends were based on revenue generation and not effort, then these athletes would not be "students" or "amateurs" anymore but rather employees of the university, which he is emphatically against. But, this doesn't address the problem either: Whether someone is called an amateur on a stipend* or an employee, there is still the issue of whether they should be compensated based on effort or revenue generated.

Anyway, it was fun watching him twist in the wind on that one. 07-coffee3



* The real paradox here is that if an athlete is truly an amateur, then they would get no compensation at all. The whole idea of an "athletic scholarship" is a nonesuch, and means the athletes are not amateurs. Club sports are amateur sports, scholarship sports are not.

Bowlsby and his ilk are full of bullchit. I happen to believe in the "labor theory of value" or "labor capital", but I am pretty radical on these ideas.

For instance, I think that the right to organize a labor union, collectively bargain and strike should be a constitutional right in this country.

You need capital, yes, but without labor....who is going to make your product or provide your service and who is going to have the income to buy your product or service?

I don't believe that Bowslby works twenty times harder than his secretary and he may not even work as hard, unless golfing and having lunch with his cronies is "work".

I concede that this is a generalization but in my dealings with corporate clients, I have come away with the notion that many of these folks don't work ten or twenty times harder or individually add that much value.

I have never believed that executive pay should be so high in relation to rank and file employees, higher yes, but not as obscenely so as it is in many cases.

If all the athletes left and did something else with their lives, where would that leave college athletics?

Perhaps the SID, the AD, the support staff and the coaches could suit up and play.

How much would the networks pay to televise that and what would stadium attendance be?

Pay these players and end the hypocrisy. The colleges get millions of dollars which flow through the athletic departments.

What are the salaries of the AD's, their assistants, the support staff and the coaching staffs, along with the building funds of these "non-profit" athletic departments?

What travel junkets and other "costs" are contained or hidden in athletic department budgets? I view the cry that most schools lose money on athletics with a jaundiced eye and wonder if "creative accounting" is not at work.

Thanks, it sounds like Jay Bilas (whom I am no fan of) was on the right track in putting a fat cat like Bowlsby on the griddle.
(08-08-2014 10:43 AM)TerryD Wrote: [ -> ][quote='quo vadis' pid='10975319' dateline='1407511409']
It is all bullchit. I happen to believe in the "labor value of value" or "labor capital", but I am pretty radical on these ideas.

For instance, I think that the right to organize a labor union, collectively bargain and strike should be a constitutional right in this country.

A tangent, but since all those things are protected by federal statute why would a constitutional right be a big deal?

Anyway, I agree that players should be "paid". They already are and we could end the hypocrisy.
The reason college baseball isn't as popular is becasue baseball isn't that popular not because of the players. One could argue that college baseball gets more support than the minor leagues. Nobody reallys knows who the stud player out of high school are because they get drafted and then sent to the minors to develop. On top of that, the minor league system is so vast, a player can get lost in there from a fan perspective.
(08-08-2014 10:39 AM)Wedge Wrote: [ -> ]
Quote:"well, if you are an athlete and you are smart enough to recognize the hypocrisy of our policies and don't like them, then go do something else with your life".

Unfortunately, that pretty much sums up the attitude of most of the "adults" involved in college athletics.

Unfortunately? That's the right attitude to have. These are not employees but students who are already compensated. If any athlete is not appreciative of the opportunity they are given, then the scholarship needs to go to someone who is.

I'd write more but I have to get back to work so I can make my next student loan payment.
(08-08-2014 10:51 AM)MWC Tex Wrote: [ -> ]The reason college baseball isn't as popular ...

... is primarily because it's not a TV-friendly sport. It's not that the minor leagues siphon off so much talent. If that were the reason, then college baseball would have become far more popular in the last 20 years because so many more good players are choosing college over the minors than they did "back in the day".

For that matter, MLB isn't a TV-friendly sport either, it's just living off the fumes of having been so popular among U.S. fans way back when, and its popularity has already been surpassed by the NFL and NBA with other sports possibly passing MLB in the future.
(08-08-2014 10:47 AM)quo vadis Wrote: [ -> ]
(08-08-2014 10:43 AM)TerryD Wrote: [ -> ][quote='quo vadis' pid='10975319' dateline='1407511409']
It is all bullchit. I happen to believe in the "labor value of value" or "labor capital", but I am pretty radical on these ideas.

For instance, I think that the right to organize a labor union, collectively bargain and strike should be a constitutional right in this country.

A tangent, but since all those things are protected by federal statute why would a constitutional right be a big deal?

Anyway, I agree that players should be "paid". They already are and we could end the hypocrisy.


Because a Federal statute can be changed or modified or legislatively overruled much easier than a constitutional right.

Constitutional rights are broader and apply to the states via the 14th Amendment.

Heck, lets just drop the Second Amendment and let Federal and state statutes govern the right to bear arms.

How do you think that the NRA, for instance, would view that proposal?
(08-08-2014 11:18 AM)Wedge Wrote: [ -> ]
(08-08-2014 10:51 AM)MWC Tex Wrote: [ -> ]The reason college baseball isn't as popular ...

... is primarily because it's not a TV-friendly sport. It's not that the minor leagues siphon off so much talent. If that were the reason, then college baseball would have become far more popular in the last 20 years because so many more good players are choosing college over the minors than they did "back in the day".

For that matter, MLB isn't a TV-friendly sport either, it's just living off the fumes of having been so popular among U.S. fans way back when, and its popularity has already been surpassed by the NFL and NBA with other sports possibly passing MLB in the future.

Obviously, personal preference here, but I am a much bigger fan of college and pro baseball than both college and pro basketball, by a long shot

As in, I would attend a college, minor league and pro baseball game but would not consider doing so for pro basketball (definitely) and college basketball (unlikely).
(08-08-2014 11:14 AM)bullitt_60 Wrote: [ -> ]
(08-08-2014 10:39 AM)Wedge Wrote: [ -> ]
Quote:"well, if you are an athlete and you are smart enough to recognize the hypocrisy of our policies and don't like them, then go do something else with your life".

Unfortunately, that pretty much sums up the attitude of most of the "adults" involved in college athletics.

Unfortunately? That's the right attitude to have. These are not employees but students who are already compensated.

If college athletics is, someday, drastically changed so that all athletes are genuine students who are first admitted through a school's normal admissions process and only then recruited to be varsity athletes, then your attitude might make sense.

But the real world we live in now is one in which most of the athletes in revenue sports who make the $$$ for these schools are athletes first and students either incidentally or in name only.
(08-08-2014 11:18 AM)Wedge Wrote: [ -> ]
(08-08-2014 10:51 AM)MWC Tex Wrote: [ -> ]The reason college baseball isn't as popular ...

... is primarily because it's not a TV-friendly sport. It's not that the minor leagues siphon off so much talent. If that were the reason, then college baseball would have become far more popular in the last 20 years because so many more good players are choosing college over the minors than they did "back in the day".

For that matter, MLB isn't a TV-friendly sport either, it's just living off the fumes of having been so popular among U.S. fans way back when, and its popularity has already been surpassed by the NFL and NBA with other sports possibly passing MLB in the future.

If we define popularity in terms of revenue, MLB popularity is positively booming. For example, in 1995, MLB gross revenue was $1.4 Billion. In 2005 it was $5 Billion. This year, it will be $8.5 billion, not too far behind the NFL's $9.5 Billion and well ahead of $5 Billion for the NBA.

I'm the opposite of Terry: MLB is boring to me, I won't watch anything but the deciding game of a World Series, while I love college basketball and the NBA, but MLB is clearly more popular.
(08-08-2014 11:25 AM)Wedge Wrote: [ -> ]
(08-08-2014 11:14 AM)bullitt_60 Wrote: [ -> ]
(08-08-2014 10:39 AM)Wedge Wrote: [ -> ]
Quote:"well, if you are an athlete and you are smart enough to recognize the hypocrisy of our policies and don't like them, then go do something else with your life".

Unfortunately, that pretty much sums up the attitude of most of the "adults" involved in college athletics.

Unfortunately? That's the right attitude to have. These are not employees but students who are already compensated.

If college athletics is, someday, drastically changed so that all athletes are genuine students who are first admitted through a school's normal admissions process and only then recruited to be varsity athletes, then your attitude might make sense.

But the real world we live in now is one in which most of the athletes in revenue sports who make the $$$ for these schools are athletes first and students either incidentally or in name only.

That's putting it a bit too strongly. Having taught in such environments, I can assure you they are students. They have to show up for classes and put the work in to pass them.

But, it's also true that they should be called "athlete-students", not "student-athletes", as university policies clearly prioritizes the "athlete" part. For example, if a class schedule (like the date of an exam) conflicts with an athletic schedule (like traveling to a game, or even practice), guess which one gives? University policy will force the professor to accommodate the athlete by rescheduling their exam, but will never force a coach to change a practice or other team event to accommodate class activities. Time devoted to athletic activities is expansive and rigidly scripted, and the athlete-student cannot ignore them at pain of losing their scholarship. In contrast, time for academic activities is basically ad-hoc, the athlete-student is largely expected to get that done "on their own time", in the cracks that exist between athletic obligations.

An athlete who misses a team practice and says "sorry coach, I was studying for an exam" and has a note from a professor to prove it will find that is absolutely no excuse at all and the coach can discipline him just about any way he wants. An athlete who misses a class period and says "sorry Doc, I was at football practice" and has a note from a coach to prove it will find that university policy means that the professor must excuse him and allow him to make up the work at no penalty.

And this doesn't just apply to football players, it's true of women's soccer players too. Any conflict between being a student and being an athlete is instantly resolved in favor of the athletic activity, and that is by university policy.
(08-08-2014 11:28 AM)quo vadis Wrote: [ -> ]If we define popularity in terms of revenue, MLB popularity is positively booming. For example, in 1995, MLB gross revenue was $1.4 Billion. In 2005 it was $5 Billion. This year, it will be $8.5 billion, not too far behind the NFL's $9.5 Billion and well ahead of $5 Billion for the NBA.

That's because MLB is now doing a much better job than they used to of monetizing their existing fanbase. It's not because they're growing the size of their fanbase, or the size of their TV audiences, because they're not.
Everyone has always had the right to strike, i.e. to quit working and leave. The thing is, employers also have the right to hire replacements and the replacements have the right to not be physically assaulted or impeded.

So, I'm not sure what this constitutional amendment would be, other than negating the rights of employers to hire whoever they want and negating the rights of folks who wish to work for these employers after others walk off their jobs.
(08-08-2014 10:43 AM)TerryD Wrote: [ -> ]Bowlsby and his ilk are full of bullchit. I happen to believe in the "labor theory of value" or "labor capital", but I am pretty radical on these ideas.

For instance, I think that the right to organize a labor union, collectively bargain and strike should be a constitutional right in this country.

05-nono
I had to delete the rest of the post, I would have been banned for life.
(08-08-2014 11:28 AM)quo vadis Wrote: [ -> ]
(08-08-2014 11:18 AM)Wedge Wrote: [ -> ]
(08-08-2014 10:51 AM)MWC Tex Wrote: [ -> ]The reason college baseball isn't as popular ...

... is primarily because it's not a TV-friendly sport. It's not that the minor leagues siphon off so much talent. If that were the reason, then college baseball would have become far more popular in the last 20 years because so many more good players are choosing college over the minors than they did "back in the day".

For that matter, MLB isn't a TV-friendly sport either, it's just living off the fumes of having been so popular among U.S. fans way back when, and its popularity has already been surpassed by the NFL and NBA with other sports possibly passing MLB in the future.

If we define popularity in terms of revenue, MLB popularity is positively booming. For example, in 1995, MLB gross revenue was $1.4 Billion. In 2005 it was $5 Billion. This year, it will be $8.5 billion, not too far behind the NFL's $9.5 Billion and well ahead of $5 Billion for the NBA.

I'm the opposite of Terry: MLB is boring to me, I won't watch anything but the deciding game of a World Series, while I love college basketball and the NBA, but MLB is clearly more popular.

MLB definitely has a modern day issue with too much dead time. Batters taking too much time getting to the plate. Too many time-outs to step out of the box. Too much time to change pitchers. Too much time between innings. Baseball games need to move quicker and be done in about 2 hours.

Soccer has an entirely different problem. There is little standing around and games are done in 2 hours, which is good. Plus you can easily see the ball, which is also good. Soccer just doesn't have enough scoring to determine a clear winner, which results in too many ties. Any sport where the regular rules can't break a tie in a reasonable amount of time has bad rules. The rules need to be changed to have more scoring and less ties.

Hockey has both soccer and baseball's problems. Too much dead time, too many ties, not enough scoring, and you can't see the puck.
(08-08-2014 12:10 PM)goofus Wrote: [ -> ]Soccer has an entirely different problem. There is little standing around and games are done in 2 hours, which is good. Plus you can easily see the ball, which is also good. Soccer just doesn't have enough scoring to determine a clear winner, which results in too many ties. Any sport where the regular rules can't break a tie in a reasonable amount of time has bad rules. The rules need to be changed to have more scoring and less ties.

American football also has bad tiebreaking rules, both NFL and CFB. IMO those overtimes are just as unsatisfying as shootouts in soccer or hockey.

The soccer issue with U.S. fans is always going to be that we have been conditioned by U.S. spectator sports to see more frequent scoring. (The MLB balance this year has swung so far toward pitching that scoring is approaching the infrequency of soccer, but I digress.) There's nothing that can be done about the frequency of goal scoring in soccer unless you bastardize the rules to the point where it isn't real futbol. There are tweaks that could be made to increase scoring, but even something that sounds simple like eliminating the offsides rule would make the U.S. game significantly different from international competition.
(08-08-2014 11:25 AM)Wedge Wrote: [ -> ]If college athletics is, someday, drastically changed so that all athletes are genuine students who are first admitted through a school's normal admissions process and only then recruited to be varsity athletes, then your attitude might make sense.

But the real world we live in now is one in which most of the athletes in revenue sports who make the $$$ for these schools are athletes first and students either incidentally or in name only.

There are recruiting and admission standards in place now to keep college athletics amateur. What you are suggesting is the death of college football and the creation of minor league football. Who's going to watch that? Why would any university pay for it? I care as much about an Alabama minor league football team as I do the Montgomery Biscuits.

The optimal outcome IMO is for the NFL to create a development system and return college football to where it is supposed to be.
(08-08-2014 12:27 PM)bullitt_60 Wrote: [ -> ]
(08-08-2014 11:25 AM)Wedge Wrote: [ -> ]If college athletics is, someday, drastically changed so that all athletes are genuine students who are first admitted through a school's normal admissions process and only then recruited to be varsity athletes, then your attitude might make sense.

But the real world we live in now is one in which most of the athletes in revenue sports who make the $$$ for these schools are athletes first and students either incidentally or in name only.

There are recruiting and admission standards in place now to keep college athletics amateur. What you are suggesting is the death of college football and the creation of minor league football. Who's going to watch that? Why would any university pay for it? I care as much about an Alabama minor league football team as I do the Montgomery Biscuits.

The optimal outcome IMO is for the NFL to create a development system and return college football to where it is supposed to be.

What I'm saying is that we should stop pretending that Andrew Wiggins or Johnny Manziel were college students in the same sense that you or I were college students.
(08-08-2014 10:43 AM)TerryD Wrote: [ -> ]For instance, I think that the right to organize a labor union, collectively bargain and strike should be a constitutional right in this country.

"Congress shall make no law ... prohibiting ... the right of the people peaceably to assemble ..."

There. Done. You have your Constitutional right. See Amendment 1 for the full printable version.
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