The Ideal Conference Draft has sparked some thoughts:
1. Where are lines drawn when a school is so wildly valuable that geography, culture, academics, and/or athletics are tossed to the wayside to partner with them?
2. On the flip side, where are the lines drawn when a school is so wildly a match in geography, culture, academics, and/or athletics that a major blemish or two is overlooked to partner with them?
3. Regardless of all the circumstances swirling about, are there a handful of core groupings that absolutely should and must stay together?
We see items 1 and 2 play out in the real world. Notre Dame and Texas are perhaps the best examples of the 1st, and the recent additions of Colorado, Rutgers, and, to a degree, Maryland are decent representations of the 2nd. Those two thoughts could be debated ad nauseam with every school.
The third question does interest me, though, and I'd like to toss it out to group-think. Stripping history and current conference affiliations aside, below are some groupings that I feel should absolutely stay together, come hell or high water.
Washington, Oregon, California, UCLA (this is a good example... for instance, I could see Stanford conceivably joining a private school conference with USC, Notre Dame, Northwestern, Syracuse, Vanderbilt, Duke, Miami, Boston College, and maybe BYU, Baylor, and/or TCU. Stanford would not pass the "come hell or high water" requirement for the UW/UO/Cal/UCLA grouping, in my opinion)
Stanford, USC
Minnesota, Wisconsin, Iowa, Illinois
Indiana, Michigan, Ohio State
Georgia, Florida, Auburn, Tennessee
North Carolina, Virginia, Duke
This exercise is by no means a determination of value... some schools are transitional locations and can fit in any number of groupings (Penn State, Missouri, and Kansas come to mind). First of all, are these "hell or high water" groupings accurate? If so, are there any schools that should have been included in one of them, or is there yet another grouping at the FBS level that was missed? Once those are confirmed, I would be interested in using these groupings to build truly ideal conference setups in a group-think manner and see what we discover. It is good that we have some regular folks on here from outside the southeast to lend some perspective.
Texas-OU
Michigan-Ohio State
Alabama-Auburn
Oklahoma-OSU
I also believe Missouri-Arkansas will be in this category very quickly.
Take away all the trimmings away, these schools will live and die together...
(03-07-2014 01:01 PM)USAFMEDIC Wrote: [ -> ]Texas-OU
Michigan-Ohio State
Alabama-Auburn
Oklahoma-OSU
I also believe Missouri-Arkansas will be in this category very quickly.
Take away all the trimmings away, these schools will live and die together...
Thank you Medic. The SEC should add the five that aren't in the SEC now and then stop with our realignment. Ohio and then Michigan are contiguous to Kentucky, Oklahoma/OSU/Texas are contiguous then we could throw in Kansas and call it a day.
1. Schools that are imperative additions: Texas, Florida State, Oklahoma, Kansas, North Carolina
2. Schools that should be added for fit: Clemson and possibly Georgia Tech
3. Schools that have to stay together: Texas/Oklahoma, Oklahoma/Oklahoma State, Clemson/South Carolina, Florida/Florida State, Louisville/Kentucky, Georgia Tech/Georgia, Duke/North Carolina, Michigan/Ohio State, USC/UCLA, USC/Stanford,
4. Schools that should have stayed together: Texas/A&M, Oklahoma/Nebraska, Penn State/Pitt, West Virginia/Pitt, Missouri/Kansas, Auburn/Georgia Tech
Oregon-Oregon State-Washington-Washington State = these four must stay together no matter what. Lots of rivalries among the four schools.
Georgia-Florida-Auburn-Alabama-Tennessee-South Carolina= these six/possibly seven have waaayy to much history together to be split up. I admit it is rather odd to have six schools together, but it is indeed true. Georgia has rivalries with Florida, Auburn, South Carolina, & Tennessee. UGa highly values its series with Florida & Auburn, and doesn't mind playing South Carolina & Tennessee. However, South Carolina highly values its series with UGa as well as its series with Florida and Tennessee. Alabama highly values its series with Tennessee and Auburn whereas Auburn highly values its series with Georgia and Alabama (Tennessee can be included too, but they're not as big as UGa & 'Bama.). Tennessee highly values it series with Florida, Alabama, and Georgia, so you can kinda see how the six interlock.
North Carolina-NC State-Duke-Virginia= these four absolutely must stay together. Too much history among the four.
Florida State-Clemson-Miami-Georgia Tech= see above.
Stanford-Cal-USC-UCLA
Texas-OU-Texas Tech-Oklahoma State
Michigan-Ohio State-Michigan State-Indiana-Purdue?= I put Purdue in both groupings because I'm not sure which group they really belong in. They have a huge rivalry with IU, but it's possible that they could continue that OOC. The real question is how big are their games w/ Michigan, OSU, & MSU?
Iowa-Minnesota-Illinois-N'western-Wisconsin-Purdue?= see above. Purdue does have a big rivalry with Illinois, but the real question with Purdue in this group is how big are Purdue's games w/ Iowa, Minnesota, Wisconsin, & Northwestern?
Arizona-Arizona State
Texas A&M-LSU-Ole Miss-Mississippi State-Arkansas
Syracuse-BC-Pittsburgh
Air Force-Colorado State-Wyoming
Army-Navy
Toledo-Bowling Green
Akron-Kent
Ohio-Miami(OH)-Ball State
CMU-EMU-WMU
FAU-FIU
Fresno-SDSU-SJSU
Kansas-Kansas State
Cincy-Memphis (Louisville used to be in here, but now I'm not so sure)
UNLV-Nevada
(03-07-2014 01:40 PM)JRsec Wrote: [ -> ] (03-07-2014 01:01 PM)USAFMEDIC Wrote: [ -> ]Texas-OU
Michigan-Ohio State
Alabama-Auburn
Oklahoma-OSU
I also believe Missouri-Arkansas will be in this category very quickly.
Take away all the trimmings away, these schools will live and die together...
Thank you Medic. The SEC should add the five that aren't in the SEC now and then stop with our realignment. Ohio and then Michigan are contiguous to Kentucky, Oklahoma/OSU/Texas are contiguous then we could throw in Kansas and call it a day.
Well, that would definitely make things easy and set well with this crowd! Not sure the rest of the country would be thrilled, though.
(03-07-2014 02:10 PM)DawgNBama Wrote: [ -> ]Oregon-Oregon State-Washington-Washington State = these four must stay together no matter what. Lots of rivalries among the four schools.
Georgia-Florida-Auburn-Alabama-Tennessee-South Carolina= these six/possibly seven have waaayy to much history together to be split up. I admit it is rather odd to have six schools together, but it is indeed true. Georgia has rivalries with Florida, Auburn, South Carolina, & Tennessee. UGa highly values its series with Florida & Auburn, and doesn't mind playing South Carolina & Tennessee. However, South Carolina highly values its series with UGa as well as its series with Florida and Tennessee. Alabama highly values its series with Tennessee and Auburn whereas Auburn highly values its series with Georgia and Alabama (Tennessee can be included too, but they're not as big as UGa & 'Bama.). Tennessee highly values it series with Florida, Alabama, and Georgia, so you can kinda see how the six interlock.
North Carolina-NC State-Duke-Virginia= these four absolutely must stay together. Too much history among the four.
Florida State-Clemson-Miami-Georgia Tech= see above.
Stanford-Cal-USC-UCLA
Texas-OU-Texas Tech-Oklahoma State
Michigan-Ohio State-Michigan State-Indiana-Purdue?= I put Purdue in both groupings because I'm not sure which group they really belong in. They have a huge rivalry with IU, but it's possible that they could continue that OOC. The real question is how big are their games w/ Michigan, OSU, & MSU?
Iowa-Minnesota-Illinois-N'western-Wisconsin-Purdue?= see above. Purdue does have a big rivalry with Illinois, but the real question with Purdue in this group is how big are Purdue's games w/ Iowa, Minnesota, Wisconsin, & Northwestern?
Arizona-Arizona State
Texas A&M-LSU-Ole Miss-Mississippi State-Arkansas
Syracuse-BC-Pittsburgh
Air Force-Colorado State-Wyoming
Army-Navy
Toledo-Bowling Green
Akron-Kent
Ohio-Miami(OH)-Ball State
CMU-EMU-WMU
FAU-FIU
Fresno-SDSU-SJSU
Kansas-Kansas State
Cincy-Memphis (Louisville used to be in here, but now I'm not so sure)
UNLV-Nevada
Alot of good thoughts, Dawg. We could go on forever with degrees of separation connections (e.g. Florida must play Florida State, Florida must play Georgia, but Florida State and Georgia have no need), so limiting it to just connections beyond two school rivalries becomes quite rare. In that sense, a school can only be part of one essential grouping ("essential" being the operative word). That is why a left South Carolina out of the old guard SEC east grouping; they don't absolutely need to be with Auburn.
Fla-Ga
Fla-Tenn
Those two games come to mind.
Once Texas and Texas A&M separated I really don't think any rivalry is totally safe any more. KU/MU were each other's biggest rivals. This goes all the way back to when Kansas was a territory and bloodshed on both sides. Gone. NU and OU were huge rivals in the Big 8 and that got reduced to every couple years in the B12 in the name of competitive balance. Now gone. WVU/Pitt was a big rivalry. Gone.
If the circumstances and money are right almost any rivalry can be ended. The SEC, B1G, and PAC are just lucky they are in great situations and have no worries at this time. In 50 years things could be totally changed.
(03-07-2014 01:01 PM)USAFMEDIC Wrote: [ -> ]Texas-OU
Michigan-Ohio State
Alabama-Auburn
Oklahoma-OSU
I also believe Missouri-Arkansas will be in this category very quickly.
Take away all the trimmings away, these schools will live and die together...
I think this also. We both seem to be natural rivals. Even more so then programs that where suppose to be our rival. In a decade from now. People won't be able to imagine that we weren't always rivals.
(03-10-2014 01:19 AM)jhawkmvp Wrote: [ -> ]Once Texas and Texas A&M separated I really don't think any rivalry is totally safe any more. KU/MU were each other's biggest rivals. This goes all the way back to when Kansas was a territory and bloodshed on both sides. Gone. NU and OU were huge rivals in the Big 8 and that got reduced to every couple years in the B12 in the name of competitive balance. Now gone. WVU/Pitt was a big rivalry. Gone.
If the circumstances and money are right almost any rivalry can be ended. The SEC, B1G, and PAC are just lucky they are in great situations and have no worries at this time. In 50 years things could be totally changed.
Yep, if the SEC could go to 18 with Texas, Oklahoma, Oklahoma State and Kansas it would solve some of those issues and create a couple more. Texas could keep playing OU and regain A&M, Missouri and Kansas would be back on the docket and OU wouldn't have to lose OSU. Texas would have to give up Texas Tech and Kansas would still be minus Kansas State.
(03-10-2014 05:06 AM)JRsec Wrote: [ -> ] (03-10-2014 01:19 AM)jhawkmvp Wrote: [ -> ]Once Texas and Texas A&M separated I really don't think any rivalry is totally safe any more. KU/MU were each other's biggest rivals. This goes all the way back to when Kansas was a territory and bloodshed on both sides. Gone. NU and OU were huge rivals in the Big 8 and that got reduced to every couple years in the B12 in the name of competitive balance. Now gone. WVU/Pitt was a big rivalry. Gone.
If the circumstances and money are right almost any rivalry can be ended. The SEC, B1G, and PAC are just lucky they are in great situations and have no worries at this time. In 50 years things could be totally changed.
Yep, if the SEC could go to 18 with Texas, Oklahoma, Oklahoma State and Kansas it would solve some of those issues and create a couple more. Texas could keep playing OU and regain A&M, Missouri and Kansas would be back on the docket and OU wouldn't have to lose OSU. Texas would have to give up Texas Tech and Kansas would still be minus Kansas State.
While KU and KSU aren't tied together through all scenarios, I don't think that the state legislature would allow a split just for KU's benefit - it would probably have to be a situation where it was very clear that another tectonic shift was taking place, and only one state school was going to get a slot in a major conference. Even if that does happen, I suspect that out-of-conference games against each other would be mandated by the state.
(03-10-2014 01:19 AM)jhawkmvp Wrote: [ -> ]Once Texas and Texas A&M separated I really don't think any rivalry is totally safe any more. KU/MU were each other's biggest rivals. This goes all the way back to when Kansas was a territory and bloodshed on both sides. Gone. NU and OU were huge rivals in the Big 8 and that got reduced to every couple years in the B12 in the name of competitive balance. Now gone. WVU/Pitt was a big rivalry. Gone.
If the circumstances and money are right almost any rivalry can be ended. The SEC, B1G, and PAC are just lucky they are in great situations and have no worries at this time. In 50 years things could be totally changed.
Yeah, jhawk, that is a good point and is probably true. Everybody has a price. It does not always have to involve dollars and cents, but it usually does.