TripleA's research thread and the multiple (and varied) responses got my attention. The last few pages regressed to anothr p!ssing match but the overall broad comments were these:
1) MEMPHIS has had good runs basically in two coaches tenures - Kirk and Calipari. Both of them had seasons vacated.
2) MEMPHIS has made it to the Final Four 3 times (once "officially) in 1973, 1985, 2008. Several Sweet 16 appearances and 3 more Elite 8 appearances since 1982.
3) Some posters opined the objective is to win a national title and they don't believe Pastner is the coach to get this done at MEMPHIS.
4) Others argue each season, each team is different and expectations of Sweet 16 appearances in 5 out of 6 years is pure fantasy (Yes, one poster did post that level of expectation for Pastner).
This got me to thinking how many NCAA coaches have won a NCAA title since the tournament began back in 1939?
The answer is 47 different individuals have won at least one NCAA title. Obviously, several have won it many times (Rupp, Wooden, Pitino, Coach K, Donovan, Crum, Dean Smith, Calhoun, Knight, etc.). But, the point is out of ALL the NCAA coaches in the history of this sport, only 47 have won the NCAA championship in the 75 years since it commenced in 1939. Think about that.
Then I wondered how long did it take acknowledged “great coaches” to win a NCAA title? Google is our friend and here are a few notable coaches and the number of years coaching (college and professional) before winning their FIRST NCAA title:
Rupp - 18 years (all at Kentucky)
Wooden - 18 years (all at UCLA)
Krzyzewski - 16 years (first 5 at Army)
Pitino - 14 years
Crum - 9 years (good job, winning it all in less than a decade!)
Smith - 20 years (all at North Carolina)
John Thompson - 12 years
Calhoun - 27 years
Knight - 11 years (first 6 at Army)
Donovan - 12 years
Boeheim - 27 years (all at Syracuse)
Calipari - 24 years (Massachusetts, NJ Nets, MEMPHIS, Kentucky)
These are the timeframes it took these VERY GOOD and EXPERIENCED coaches to finally win a NCAA title.
The point is...sometimes it takes a while.
I remember one poster arguing that MEMPHIS had all the facilities, fan support, deep money boosters to be a top 5 program each year. So what was the excuse for Syracuse, North Carolina, UCLA, Kentucky, and Duke to take SO LONG to win that first title?? Can it not be argued that those programs have perhaps the same facilities, money, fan support, etc. as MEMPHIS? Dare I say even moreso since many of those programs are land grant schools, get the lion's share of monies, and have been TV and media darlings since the 70's??
Pastner often says WINNING IS HARD. Certainly no one argues this. I would then add to that by saying WINNING THE NCAA TOURNAMENT IS EVEN HARDER.
The proof is above. It is non-debateable. How many times have we seen the underdog pull off the upset? Villanova over Georgetown. NC State over Houston. Kansas over MEMPHIS.
Now, will Pastner get it done here? The truth is...WE DON'T KNOW. The odds are he will learn while coaching here and eventually move on like Pitino, Donovan, Calhoun, Coach K, and Calipari did. So did Larry Brown, Norm Sloan, Jim Valvano, Tark the Shark, Tubby Smith, Roy Williams, and Nolan Richardson. All of those coaches won their first title at their second or third schools...or NBA jobs.
But that list also has coaches who remained at their first job and finally won a title. Boeheim, Thompson, Smith, and Crum did this.
Personally, I think Pastner will leave MEMPHIS probably in less than 5 years. Some other school is going to fire their coach and they will simply offer more and take Pastner. USC tried last year; more will certainly do so in the future. If Arizona opens, Pastner is gone. MEMPHIS will engage in another coaching search and repeat their usual 8-10 year cycle.
I believe Pastner can win a NCAA title here; I hope he does. But looking at the difficulty in doing it, and the time it took some extremely established coaches to finally win it...it is a long shot by any honest evaluation.
(01-26-2014 10:24 AM)boss man Wrote: [ -> ]TripleA's research thread and the multiple (and varied) responses got my attention. The last few pages regressed to anothr p!ssing match but the overall broad comments were these:
1) MEMPHIS has had good runs basically in two coaches tenures - Kirk and Calipari. Both of them had seasons vacated.
2) MEMPHIS has made it to the Final Four 3 times (once "officially) in 1973, 1985, 2008. Several Sweet 16 appearances and 3 more Elite 8 appearances since 1982.
3) Some posters opined the objective is to win a national title and they don't believe Pastner is the coach to get this done at MEMPHIS.
4) Others argue each season, each team is different and expectations of Sweet 16 appearances in 5 out of 6 years is pure fantasy (Yes, one poster did post that level of expectation for Pastner).
This got me to thinking how many NCAA coaches have won a NCAA title since the tournament began back in 1939?
The answer is 47 different individuals have won at least one NCAA title. Obviously, several have won it many times (Rupp, Wooden, Pitino, Coach K, Donovan, Crum, Dean Smith, Calhoun, Knight, etc.). But, the point is out of ALL the NCAA coaches in the history of this sport, only 47 have won the NCAA championship in the 75 years since it commenced in 1939. Think about that.
Then I wondered how long did it take acknowledged “great coaches” to win a NCAA title? Google is our friend and here are a few notable coaches and the number of years coaching (college and professional) before winning their FIRST NCAA title:
Rupp - 18 years (all at Kentucky)
Wooden - 18 years (all at UCLA)
Krzyzewski - 16 years (first 5 at Army)
Pitino - 14 years
Crum - 9 years (good job, winning it all in less than a decade!)
Smith - 20 years (all at North Carolina)
John Thompson - 12 years
Calhoun - 27 years
Knight - 11 years (first 6 at Army)
Donovan - 12 years
Boeheim - 27 years (all at Syracuse)
Calipari - 24 years (Massachusetts, NJ Nets, MEMPHIS, Kentucky)
These are the timeframes it took these VERY GOOD and EXPERIENCED coaches to finally win a NCAA title.
The point is...sometimes it takes a while.
I remember one poster arguing that MEMPHIS had all the facilities, fan support, deep money boosters to be a top 5 program each year. So what was the excuse for Syracuse, North Carolina, UCLA, Kentucky, and Duke to take SO LONG to win that first title?? Can it not be argued that those programs have perhaps the same facilities, money, fan support, etc. as MEMPHIS? Dare I say even moreso since many of those programs are land grant schools, get the lion's share of monies, and have been TV and media darlings since the 70's??
Pastner often says WINNING IS HARD. Certainly no one argues this. I would then add to that by saying WINNING THE NCAA TOURNAMENT IS EVEN HARDER.
The proof is above. It is non-debateable. How many times have we seen the underdog pull off the upset? Villanova over Georgetown. NC State over Houston. Kansas over MEMPHIS.
Now, will Pastner get it done here? The truth is...WE DON'T KNOW. The odds are he will learn while coaching here and eventually move on like Pitino, Donovan, Calhoun, Coach K, and Calipari did. So did Larry Brown, Norm Sloan, Jim Valvano, Tark the Shark, Tubby Smith, Roy Williams, and Nolan Richardson. All of those coaches won their first title at their second or third schools...or NBA jobs.
But that list also has coaches who remained at their first job and finally won a title. Boeheim, Thompson, Smith, and Crum did this.
Personally, I think Pastner will leave MEMPHIS probably in less than 5 years. Some other school is going to fire their coach and they will simply offer more and take Pastner. USC tried last year; more will certainly do so in the future. If Arizona opens, Pastner is gone. MEMPHIS will engage in another coaching search and repeat their usual 8-10 year cycle.
I believe Pastner can win a NCAA title here; I hope he does. But looking at the difficulty in doing it, and the time it took some extremely established coaches to finally win it...it is a long shot by any honest evaluation.
Very well stated. Definitely puts things in perspective.
If Pastner were to take this team to a National Title this year it would be the fastest in the history of the game. He's pacing himself. Just wait.
I believe that anybody that works as hard as Pastner does at a job or career will certainly achieve all of their goals whatever they may be. It might take several years or it might be this year. I do believe without a doubt that it will come to be that Josh will win a national championship in college basketball.
I always fear when we have a good coach who has success that they will be courted by larger schools. It's common practice for a coach who is successful to seek challenges at different schools and be regarded highly by new fan bases. There is also those coaches who love a particular school and make their life and home in one place.
Im not sure how long coach Pastner will be here, but I do know he is a genuine, honest person and if he leaves it will be for the right reasons, and we will have been all the better for having him.
The hatred for Pastner has not, is not and never will be about basketball.
(01-26-2014 10:50 AM)TigerBill Wrote: [ -> ]The hatred for Pastner has not, is not and never will be about basketball.
Define "hatred for Pastner"
Nice OP. It's amazing how facts can stand up in the face of irrational emotion.
(01-26-2014 10:50 AM)TigerBill Wrote: [ -> ]The hatred for Pastner has not, is not and never will be about basketball.
I don't understand this comment. What hatred for pastner?
Way to derail the thread, Bill.
Anybody want to discuss the OP?
It's hilarious. To compare something that happened in the 30s to now makes no sense whatsoever. Rupp was coaching nearly a decade before the tournament was even started. They had a center jump after every made basket back then. Nobody is demanding Josh win a national championship. Just a sweet 16 every 4 or 5 years.
(01-26-2014 11:03 AM)Brother Bluto Wrote: [ -> ]It's hilarious. To compare something that happened in the 30s to now makes no sense whatsoever. Rupp was coaching nearly a decade before the tournament was even started. They had a center jump after every made basket back then. Nobody is demanding Josh win a national championship. Just a sweet 16 every 4 or 5 years.
History counts back to any date, when you're looking at how many times something has occurred in sports. Do you think they throw out records every few years, b/c they become meaningless?
Just a S16 every 4 or 5 years? We've had that debate in another thread. That stat is skewed by Cal's last 4 years here, and by you lopping off at least 18 years where we were nationally relevant in basketball.
Apples to apples. Go back and find stats on all Top 25 teams, and only look at the coach's first 4 years there, and I bet you would find a totally different situation.
In fact, I might do that.
(01-26-2014 11:11 AM)TripleA Wrote: [ -> ] (01-26-2014 11:03 AM)Brother Bluto Wrote: [ -> ]It's hilarious. To compare something that happened in the 30s to now makes no sense whatsoever. Rupp was coaching nearly a decade before the tournament was even started. They had a center jump after every made basket back then. Nobody is demanding Josh win a national championship. Just a sweet 16 every 4 or 5 years.
History counts back to any date, when you're looking at how many times something has occurred in sports. Do you think they throw out records every few years, b/c they become meaningless?
Just a S16 every 4 or 5 years? We've had that debate in another thread. That stat is skewed by Cal's last 4 years here, and by you lopping off at least 18 years where we were nationally relevant in basketball.
Apples to apples. Go back and find stats on all Top 25 teams, and only look at the coach's first 4 years there, and I bet you would find a totally different situation.
In fact, I might do that.
ONE team per conference until 1975.
25 teams in NCAA in 73....32 in 1976.....48 in. 1982... 64+ 85- present.
Pre 1960 the NIT was on a par with the NCAA
You even had racism involved. Mississippi State wasn't even allowed to play against blacks until 1963 when they snuck out of town.
Your "apple" is full of worms.
Good day to all! Go Tigers!
At 45, Pastner will be one of the three best coaches in the game. Let's just hope we still have him.
(01-26-2014 11:19 AM)Brother Bluto Wrote: [ -> ] (01-26-2014 11:11 AM)TripleA Wrote: [ -> ] (01-26-2014 11:03 AM)Brother Bluto Wrote: [ -> ]It's hilarious. To compare something that happened in the 30s to now makes no sense whatsoever. Rupp was coaching nearly a decade before the tournament was even started. They had a center jump after every made basket back then. Nobody is demanding Josh win a national championship. Just a sweet 16 every 4 or 5 years.
History counts back to any date, when you're looking at how many times something has occurred in sports. Do you think they throw out records every few years, b/c they become meaningless?
Just a S16 every 4 or 5 years? We've had that debate in another thread. That stat is skewed by Cal's last 4 years here, and by you lopping off at least 18 years where we were nationally relevant in basketball.
Apples to apples. Go back and find stats on all Top 25 teams, and only look at the coach's first 4 years there, and I bet you would find a totally different situation.
In fact, I might do that.
ONE team per conference until 1975.
25 teams in NCAA in 73....32 in 1976.....48 in. 1982... 64+ 85- present.
Pre 1960 the NIT was on a par with the NCAA
You even had racism involved. Mississippi State wasn't even allowed to play against blacks until 1963 when they snuck out of town.
Your "apple" is full of worms.
Good day to all! Go Tigers!
Let's see, you used a "worm" to count Kirk's one-win S16s. And several others exist in your logic of getting to where you want to go. But that becomes an endless debate.
You have inspired me to go back and look at the current Top 25 teams, and maybe a few more like UNC, etc. and see how well their current coaches did their first 4 years.
(01-26-2014 11:03 AM)Brother Bluto Wrote: [ -> ]It's hilarious. To compare something that happened in the 30s to now makes no sense whatsoever. Rupp was coaching nearly a decade before the tournament was even started. They had a center jump after every made basket back then. Nobody is demanding Josh win a national championship. Just a sweet 16 every 4 or 5 years.
The history is the history.
But let's go down your diversionary road about Rupp's start 8 years before the NCAA tourney started and the archaic 1930's rules about center jumps between baskets.
Please postulate how Boeheim (hired 1976), Calhoun (hired 70's), Smith (hired 1962), and Calipari (hired by Umass in 1983) all took 20+ years to win a NCAA tournament. I believe the NCAA tournament was played back then and the center jump thing ended probably before the end of WWII. These are established coaches by any measure yet it took each of them two decades or longer to win the whole enchilada.
BTW, there are indeed posters who made the claim in Triple A's research thread that Pastner's objective was TO WIN A NATIONAL TITLE. Not be a nice guy. Not graduate players. WIN IT ALL.
Triple A was 100% right in his thread about one thing:
Far too many TIGER fans want to compare Pastner's first 4 years to Calipari's last 4 at MEMPHIS. Is that hate? No. But it is truly unfair and intellectually dishonest. Most of the coaches on that list of NCAA winners had worse records in their first 4 years than Pastner did and not one of them followed behind a 4 year run like Claipari had 2006-2009.
47 NCAA winners in 75 years.
As Reagan once noted
facts can be stubborn things.
(01-26-2014 11:37 AM)boss man Wrote: [ -> ] (01-26-2014 11:03 AM)Brother Bluto Wrote: [ -> ]It's hilarious. To compare something that happened in the 30s to now makes no sense whatsoever. Rupp was coaching nearly a decade before the tournament was even started. They had a center jump after every made basket back then. Nobody is demanding Josh win a national championship. Just a sweet 16 every 4 or 5 years.
The history is the history.
Unless it contradicts your agenda; but a Sweet 16 contender on a regular basis is quite reasonable.
(01-26-2014 10:55 AM)TripleA Wrote: [ -> ]Nice OP. It's amazing how facts can stand up in the face of irrational emotion.
FACTS?!?!?!
FACTS?!?!?!
They don't need no stinkin' facts.
Everybody knows that the Memphis mens basketball team belongs in the Final Four every season and if they don't receive their birthright it is because the coach screwed up and needs to be fired.
All ya gotta do is fill the team with Memphis high school products since they're the most awesomest players on the planet, and if the coach doesn't screw them up, they'll walk all over every other team.
to OP...how DO YOU KNOW that if the Arizona job opens up that 'Pastner is gone'?
Just because he is an alumnus of that school in no way means he'd be their first candidate or choice even. If he were..how do you know he wouldn't be loyal to the first school to offer him a head job?
As long as he and our current AD can remain on the same page...I think he stays here for a long while.
And as Homer Simpon noted.."I don't like facts. They can be used to prove anything."