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I really don't think this season is off the mark yet. In looking at all of the national forecasts and the schedule, Toledo is technically where it should be in the win/loss category. Could they have beat Ball State, yes. As far as main issues for improvement, here's what I see:

1. QB Play: If you simplify things, Toledo has a lot of weapons, but it somewhat limited at the QB position. Owens will win most games, does not have the ability to make the plays that separate great players from good players. That's not a slam against Owens, it's just the way it is. With that on mind, Toledo cannot afford to make my second point.

2. Penalties and turnovers. In order to make up for shortfalls at the QB spot during big games, you cannot make penalties or turn the ball over, yesterday Toledo did both. 10 penalties and fumbling near the endzone will not win you big games.

3. Winning requires recruiting and coaching. Toledo does well at recruiting, but that alone does not guarantee you wins. There are always transfers and guys who will never see the field, and guys who will peak and not meet projections. Toledo has has had one decent corner in last 15 years (des marrow).

4. Coaching. In the end, winners win and others end up as coordinators. Guys like Urban Meyer, Nick Saban, Bill Snyder, and Gary Pinkell win wherever they coach for a reason, because they are gifted coaches. The MAC is the place where guys learn to coach and move or get fired. No one is going to beat NIU this year. I do like the improvements Ive see on the defense. Campbell should show his full potential[/code][/php] bythe end of next season.

As far as dreams of being the next Boise St, I think Toledo should work at winning the division first, which won't happen until Lynch is gone.
The MAC, like most conferences, is one where the team with the most elite QB usually wins. But perhaps more so in the MAC where spread offenses reign supreme.
Haven't had that unique talent lately.

I think the seson is going as forecast.

I place a high value on the OOC games. I really like to see us win those. Those are what make good seasons into great seasons.

I also like to win in the Glassbowl. Which is imperative to have a prayer at a conference or division title. Must defend home turf.
Glass Bowl used to be a tough place for opponents to come into.

I really don't think this season is off the mark yet. In looking at all of the national forecasts and the schedule, Toledo is technically where it should be in the win/loss category. Could they have beat Ball State, yes. As far as main issues for improvement, here's what I see:

1. QB Play: If you simplify things, Toledo has a lot of weapons, but it somewhat limited at the QB position. Owens will win most games, does not have the ability to make the plays that separate great players from good players. That's not a slam against Owens, it's just the way it is. With that on mind, Toledo cannot afford to make my second point.

2. Penalties and turnovers. In order to make up for shortfalls at the QB spot during big games, you cannot make penalties or turn the ball over, yesterday Toledo did both. 10 penalties and fumbling near the endzone will not win you big games.

3. Winning requires recruiting and coaching. Toledo does well at recruiting, but that alone does not guarantee you wins. There are always transfers and guys who will never see the field, and guys who will peak and not meet projections. Toledo has has had one decent corner in last 15 years (des marrow).

4. Coaching. In the end, winners win and others end up as coordinators. Guys like Urban Meyer, Nick Saban, Bill Snyder, and Gary Pinkell win wherever they coach for a reason, because they are gifted coaches. The MAC is the place where guys learn to coach and move or get fired. No one is going to beat NIU this year. I do like the improvements Ive see on the defense. Campbell should show his full potential[/code][/php] bythe end of next season.

As far as dreams of being the next Boise St, I think Toledo should work at winning the division first, which won't happen until Lynch is gone.
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It's nice to see someone keeping things in perspective. We were a long shot to win the West, and the Ball State loss was not a shock to anyone. The season's not over, though. We still have a chance to beat some decent teams, get into a bowl, and win it.

We're still a better than average MAC team, but we have no right to talk about being the next Boise. NIU can talk that way. We can't.
It's one game off the mark.

My comments to your post are as follows in red.

I really don't think this season is off the mark yet. In looking at all of the national forecasts and the schedule, Toledo is technically where it should be in the win/loss category. Could they have beat Ball State, yes.
I agree. Pre-season I figured that they would go 9-3 with no MACC game but with a bowl invite. I think that is still the case except now I look for an 8-4 (possibly 7-5) record. Ryan A. picked them to finish 3rd in the MAC west and that is looking like a real possibility at the moment

As far as main issues for improvement, here's what I see:

1. QB Play: If you simplify things, Toledo has a lot of weapons, but it somewhat limited at the QB position. Owens will win most games, does not have the ability to make the plays that separate great players from good players. That's not a slam against Owens, it's just the way it is. With that on mind, Toledo cannot afford to make my second point.
I think you forget how spectacular Owen's stats were his sophomore year and how often he stretched the field vertically with that strong arm. I am certainly no FB expert and although I can't prove it I have a gut feeling that his failure to improve and grow over the past 2 years is more on the coaching staff than on him

2. Penalties and turnovers. In order to make up for shortfalls at the QB spot during big games, you cannot make penalties or turn the ball over, yesterday Toledo did both. 10 penalties and fumbling near the endzone will not win you big games. Penalties and turnovers are always symptomatic of poor execution whose persistence represents a failure on the part of the coaching staff

3. Winning requires recruiting and coaching. Toledo does well at recruiting, but that alone does not guarantee you wins. There are always transfers and guys who will never see the field, and guys who will peak and not meet projections. Toledo has has had one decent corner in last 15 years (des marrow).

4. Coaching. In the end, winners win and others end up as coordinators. Guys like Urban Meyer, Nick Saban, Bill Snyder, and Gary Pinkell win wherever they coach for a reason, because they are gifted coaches. The MAC is the place where guys learn to coach and move or get fired. No one is going to beat NIU this year. I do like the improvements Ive see on the defense. Campbell should show his full potential[/code][/php] bythe end of next season.

As far as dreams of being the next Boise St, I think Toledo should work at winning the division first, which won't happen until Lynch is gone.
After the 2000 & 2001 seasons I thought UT had a chance to become what Boise actually became. The program was winning extensively and drawing very large crowds (by MAC standards) but alas, it was not to be. I still believe if Amstutz could have maintained the 2000 level of UT defensive play during his head coaching years we might have actually made it (despite not having the same level of administrative support enjoyed at present) because the MAC in general (and Rob Spence in particular) was well ahead of most of college football across the nation with respect to new and innovative offenses during a few years there early in the decade. In the end Fresno State actually came a lot closer than we did (before they too came up short) and then the rest of the country soon caught up and that window of opportunity closed
As far as dreams of being the next Boise St, I think Toledo should work at winning the division first, which won't happen until Lynch is gone.

Didn't we think that when Chandler Harnish graduated?
10 points has kept UT out of the MACC the past two seasons.03-shhhh
(09-29-2013 12:36 PM)owen Wrote: [ -> ]The MAC, like most conferences, is one where the team with the most elite QB usually wins. But perhaps more so in the MAC where spread offenses reign supreme.
Haven't had that unique talent lately.

I think the seson is going as forecast.

I place a high value on the OOC games. I really like to see us win those. Those are what make good seasons into great seasons.

I also like to win in the Glassbowl. Which is imperative to have a prayer at a conference or division title. Must defend home turf.
Glass Bowl used to be a tough place for opponents to come into.
Glass Bowl still is a tough place for opponents to come in
(09-29-2013 07:51 PM)rocketpaul Wrote: [ -> ]Glass Bowl still is a tough place for opponents to come in

"Tough place" is a relative term. I remember that the Glass Bowl used to be a lot more difficult place for opponents to play a decade ago than it has been in recent years, so I went back and checked the W-L records for 2000-2012 and here is what they show:

For the 6 seasons from 2000 thru 2005, the Rockets lost 2 (TWO) games in the Glass Bowl (1 in 2002 to Miami with Big Ben at QB and 1 in 2005 to CMU with Toledo's own Kent Smith at QB for CMU). In each of the 7 seasons since 2005 UT has lost 2 games EVERY YEAR at home except for 2008 (5 home losses!) and last year (2012---1 home loss).

So while the Glass Bowl may still be "tough", it was a lot tougher during 2000 thru 2004 when the Rockets only lost ONE home game during that entire 5 year stretch. Not coincidentally those years also included some of the all time best seasons' home attendance records.
(09-29-2013 08:57 PM)T-Town Wrote: [ -> ]
(09-29-2013 07:51 PM)rocketpaul Wrote: [ -> ]Glass Bowl still is a tough place for opponents to come in

"Tough place" is a relative term. I remember that the Glass Bowl used to be a lot more difficult place for opponents to play a decade ago than it has been in recent years, so I went back and checked the W-L records for 2000-2012 and here is what they show:

For the 6 seasons from 2000 thru 2005, the Rockets lost 2 (TWO) games in the Glass Bowl (1 in 2002 to Miami with Big Ben at QB and 1 in 2005 to CMU with Toledo's own Kent Smith at QB for CMU). In each of the 7 seasons since 2005 UT has lost 2 games EVERY YEAR at home except for 2008 (5 home losses!) and last year (2012---1 home loss).

So while the Glass Bowl may still be "tough", it was a lot tougher during 2000 thru 2004 when the Rockets only lost ONE home game during that entire 5 year stretch. Not coincidentally those years also included some of the all time best seasons' home attendance records.

It also had teams like Arizona, Boise State, a ranked UCinn, Fresno State, etc. visit the GB which also coincided with the worst Rocket losing seasons stretch in the last 30 years. Fans, players, staff, and administration were all responsible for letting the program deteriorate in the mid-2000's, likewise we can all help keep the pedal to the metal and see the program move ahead.
(08-12-2013 08:54 AM)falconplucker Wrote: [ -> ]Florida-L
Missouri-L
Eastern Washington-W
Central Michigan-W
Ball State-L
Western Michigan-W
Navy-L
BSUCKS-W
Eastern Michigan-W
Buffalo-W
Northern Illinois-L
Akron-W

MACC Game- Northern Illinois vs Ohio

Champ- Northern

(09-29-2013 01:44 PM)T-Town Wrote: [ -> ]
(09-29-2013 12:26 PM)falconplucker Wrote: [ -> ]

My comments to your post are as follows in red.

I really don't think this season is off the mark yet. In looking at all of the national forecasts and the schedule, Toledo is technically where it should be in the win/loss category. Could they have beat Ball State, yes.
I agree. Pre-season I figured that they would go 9-3 with no MACC game but with a bowl invite. I think that is still the case except now I look for an 8-4 (possibly 7-5) record. Ryan A. picked them to finish 3rd in the MAC west and that is looking like a real possibility at the moment

As far as main issues for improvement, here's what I see:

1. QB Play: If you simplify things, Toledo has a lot of weapons, but it somewhat limited at the QB position. Owens will win most games, does not have the ability to make the plays that separate great players from good players. That's not a slam against Owens, it's just the way it is. With that on mind, Toledo cannot afford to make my second point.
I think you forget how spectacular Owen's stats were his sophomore year and how often he stretched the field vertically with that strong arm. I am certainly no FB expert and although I can't prove it I have a gut feeling that his failure to improve and grow over the past 2 years is more on the coaching staff than on him

2. Penalties and turnovers. In order to make up for shortfalls at the QB spot during big games, you cannot make penalties or turn the ball over, yesterday Toledo did both. 10 penalties and fumbling near the endzone will not win you big games. Penalties and turnovers are always symptomatic of poor execution whose persistence represents a failure on the part of the coaching staff

3. Winning requires recruiting and coaching. Toledo does well at recruiting, but that alone does not guarantee you wins. There are always transfers and guys who will never see the field, and guys who will peak and not meet projections. Toledo has has had one decent corner in last 15 years (des marrow).

4. Coaching. In the end, winners win and others end up as coordinators. Guys like Urban Meyer, Nick Saban, Bill Snyder, and Gary Pinkell win wherever they coach for a reason, because they are gifted coaches. The MAC is the place where guys learn to coach and move or get fired. No one is going to beat NIU this year. I do like the improvements Ive see on the defense. Campbell should show his full potential[/code][/php] bythe end of next season.

As far as dreams of being the next Boise St, I think Toledo should work at winning the division first, which won't happen until Lynch is gone.
After the 2000 & 2001 seasons I thought UT had a chance to become what Boise actually became. The program was winning extensively and drawing very large crowds (by MAC standards) but alas, it was not to be. I still believe if Amstutz could have maintained the 2000 level of UT defensive play during his head coaching years we might have actually made it (despite not having the same level of administrative support enjoyed at present) because the MAC in general (and Rob Spence in particular) was well ahead of most of college football across the nation with respect to new and innovative offenses during a few years there early in the decade. In the end Fresno State actually came a lot closer than we did (before they too came up short) and then the rest of the country soon caught up and that window of opportunity closed

So what had happened to the deep ball ? It is almost like we have abadonded it altogether.
(09-29-2013 09:35 PM)Boca Rocket Wrote: [ -> ]
(09-29-2013 08:57 PM)T-Town Wrote: [ -> ]
(09-29-2013 07:51 PM)rocketpaul Wrote: [ -> ]Glass Bowl still is a tough place for opponents to come in

"Tough place" is a relative term. I remember that the Glass Bowl used to be a lot more difficult place for opponents to play a decade ago than it has been in recent years, so I went back and checked the W-L records for 2000-2012 and here is what they show:

For the 6 seasons from 2000 thru 2005, the Rockets lost 2 (TWO) games in the Glass Bowl (1 in 2002 to Miami with Big Ben at QB and 1 in 2005 to CMU with Toledo's own Kent Smith at QB for CMU). In each of the 7 seasons since 2005 UT has lost 2 games EVERY YEAR at home except for 2008 (5 home losses!) and last year (2012---1 home loss).

So while the Glass Bowl may still be "tough", it was a lot tougher during 2000 thru 2004 when the Rockets only lost ONE home game during that entire 5 year stretch. Not coincidentally those years also included some of the all time best seasons' home attendance records.

It also had teams like Arizona, Boise State, a ranked UCinn, Fresno State, etc. visit the GB which also coincided with the worst Rocket losing seasons stretch in the last 30 years. Fans, players, staff, and administration were all responsible for letting the program deteriorate in the mid-2000's, likewise we can all help keep the pedal to the metal and see the program move ahead.

There may be some merit in your argument but I don't buy it entirely. Of the teams you mention, I will concede that had that 2011 Boise State team played any UT team from 2000-2005 they would have been favored to win, although I still believe that the 2000 team and maybe the 2003 or the 2001 team (that convincingly put away Minnesota by 21 points) would have made a game of it.

I don't think that the Cincinnati team which the 2012 UT team defeated would have defeated some of those earlier Rocket teams either-----were they or Arizona, for that matter, better than the No. 9 ranked Pitt team with Larry Fitzgerald that Bruce and Lance put away in 2003? And even the 9 loss 2008 Rockets took Fresno State into double overtime which makes me suspect that Fresno would have been in trouble against a number of those earlier Rocket teams.

Of course those games will never be played so you and I can speculate as long as we like, but still, at the end of the day the W-L record in the Glass Bowl remains unchanged and it was undeniably a lot better between 2000-2004 than it has been in any subsequent 5 year interval since.
(09-29-2013 10:15 PM)T-Town Wrote: [ -> ]
(09-29-2013 09:35 PM)Boca Rocket Wrote: [ -> ]
(09-29-2013 08:57 PM)T-Town Wrote: [ -> ]
(09-29-2013 07:51 PM)rocketpaul Wrote: [ -> ]Glass Bowl still is a tough place for opponents to come in

"Tough place" is a relative term. I remember that the Glass Bowl used to be a lot more difficult place for opponents to play a decade ago than it has been in recent years, so I went back and checked the W-L records for 2000-2012 and here is what they show:

For the 6 seasons from 2000 thru 2005, the Rockets lost 2 (TWO) games in the Glass Bowl (1 in 2002 to Miami with Big Ben at QB and 1 in 2005 to CMU with Toledo's own Kent Smith at QB for CMU). In each of the 7 seasons since 2005 UT has lost 2 games EVERY YEAR at home except for 2008 (5 home losses!) and last year (2012---1 home loss).

So while the Glass Bowl may still be "tough", it was a lot tougher during 2000 thru 2004 when the Rockets only lost ONE home game during that entire 5 year stretch. Not coincidentally those years also included some of the all time best seasons' home attendance records.

It also had teams like Arizona, Boise State, a ranked UCinn, Fresno State, etc. visit the GB which also coincided with the worst Rocket losing seasons stretch in the last 30 years. Fans, players, staff, and administration were all responsible for letting the program deteriorate in the mid-2000's, likewise we can all help keep the pedal to the metal and see the program move ahead.

There may be some merit in your argument but I don't buy it entirely. Of the teams you mention, I will concede that had that 2011 Boise State team played any UT team from 2000-2005 they would have been favored to win, although I still believe that the 2000 team and maybe the 2003 or the 2001 team (that convincingly put away Minnesota by 21 points) would have made a game of it.

I don't think that the Cincinnati team which the 2012 UT team defeated would have defeated some of those earlier Rocket teams either-----were they or Arizona, for that matter, better than the No. 9 ranked Pitt team with Larry Fitzgerald that Bruce and Lance put away in 2003? And even the 9 loss 2008 Rockets took Fresno State into double overtime which makes me suspect that Fresno would have been in trouble against a number of those earlier Rocket teams.

Of course those games will never be played so you and I can speculate as long as we like, but still, at the end of the day the W-L record in the Glass Bowl remains unchanged and it was undeniably a lot better between 2000-2004 than it has been in any subsequent 5 year interval since.

Of course UCinn 10-3 finished #22 in the Final USA's Today's Coaches Poll last season ahead of NIU. Pitt ended up unranked in 2003, while BGSU was a top 25 team. Toledo's GB losses were to a 7-5 Miami team &7-5 NIU. The 2005 CMU loss was
at Mt.Pleasant. About 10 teams with winning records of which 2 were Rocket losses during that 6 year stretch.
(09-30-2013 10:51 AM)Boca Rocket Wrote: [ -> ]Of course UCinn 10-3 finished #22 in the Final USA's Today's Coaches Poll last season ahead of NIU. Pitt ended up unranked in 2003, while BGSU was a top 25 team. Toledo's GB losses were to a 7-5 Miami team &7-5 NIU. The 2005 CMU loss was
at Mt.Pleasant. About 10 teams with winning records of which 2 were Rocket losses during that 6 year stretch.

I still rate the Pitt win as a bigger win than the Cincinnati win, if for no other reason than because it was a more exciting game with a big time atmosphere as Gradkowski absolutely refused to lose and seemed to single handedly will UT to win during that 4th quarter comeback.

I don't know how I managed to screw up reading the 2005 schedule but thanks for the correction. I was actually at both games but I don't remember too much about either: I do remember Garrett Wolfe running thru the UT defense like a hot knife thru butter all night---I also think the weather may have been bad too because that was one of the few games that I left before the final gun. What I remember best about the CMU game is that the CMU band played their fight song about a million times in the second half alone and by the end of the day it had actually grown on me to the point that is still one of my favorite college fight songs.
(09-30-2013 12:31 PM)T-Town Wrote: [ -> ]
(09-30-2013 10:51 AM)Boca Rocket Wrote: [ -> ]Of course UCinn 10-3 finished #22 in the Final USA's Today's Coaches Poll last season ahead of NIU. Pitt ended up unranked in 2003, while BGSU was a top 25 team. Toledo's GB losses were to a 7-5 Miami team &7-5 NIU. The 2005 CMU loss was
at Mt.Pleasant. About 10 teams with winning records of which 2 were Rocket losses during that 6 year stretch.

I still rate the Pitt win as a bigger win than the Cincinnati win, if for no other reason than because it was a more exciting game with a big time atmosphere as Gradkowski absolutely refused to lose and seemed to single handedly will UT to win during that 4th quarter comeback.

I don't know how I managed to screw up reading the 2005 schedule but thanks for the correction. I was actually at both games but I don't remember too much about either: I do remember Garrett Wolfe running thru the UT defense like a hot knife thru butter all night---I also think the weather may have been bad too because that was one of the few games that I left before the final gun. What I remember best about the CMU game is that the CMU band played their fight song about a million times in the second half alone and by the end of the day it had actually grown on me to the point that is still one of my favorite college fight songs.

At CMU, the almost game winner was thrown just off Nick Moore's finger tips.
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