FT article link
Always funny to me that "democracies" will do whatever it takes to prevent a region from exercising it's inherent rights to self-government. Coming soon to the USA.
(03-02-2013 12:23 PM)Jugnaut Wrote: [ -> ]FT article link
Always funny to me that "democracies" will do whatever it takes to prevent a region from exercising it's inherent rights to self-government. Coming soon to the USA.
Came to the USA in 1860... Not saying that it was not a moral war worth fighting but the way reconstruction was handled pretty much killed a states ability to self govern and did *nothing* to prevent jim crow..
(03-02-2013 12:28 PM)Bull_In_Exile Wrote: [ -> ] (03-02-2013 12:23 PM)Jugnaut Wrote: [ -> ]FT article link
Always funny to me that "democracies" will do whatever it takes to prevent a region from exercising it's inherent rights to self-government. Coming soon to the USA.
Came to the USA in 1860... Not saying that it was not a moral war worth fighting but the way reconstruction was handled pretty much killed a states ability to self govern and did *nothing* to prevent jim crow..
Agreed - but Jim Crow was a states rights issue. Catalan was also on the loosing side of the Spanish Civil war. While I have mixed emotions, balkanization has not proven effective.
(03-02-2013 12:23 PM)Jugnaut Wrote: [ -> ]FT article link
Always funny to me that "democracies" will do whatever it takes to prevent a region from exercising it's inherent rights to self-government. Coming soon to the USA.
The South shall rise again!
(03-02-2013 02:04 PM)RobertN Wrote: [ -> ] (03-02-2013 12:23 PM)Jugnaut Wrote: [ -> ]FT article link
Always funny to me that "democracies" will do whatever it takes to prevent a region from exercising it's inherent rights to self-government. Coming soon to the USA.
The South shall rise again!
As a member of the Sons of Confederate Veterans I agree!
But to Jagnuats point - It was the GOP who started the war against states rights in the 1860's. It was not until after the Dem's passed the Civil and voting rights act in the 1960's that southerners migrated to the GOP.
(03-02-2013 02:18 PM)dcCid Wrote: [ -> ]It was not until after the Dem's passed the Civil and voting rights act in the 1960's that southerners migrated to the GOP.
You meant republicans, right?
Spain has all the right ingredients in place.
1) Strong economic turmoil.
2) Strong regional identities.
3) Highly polarized political discussion that is high on empty drama and low on real issues and real solutions.
And think about how tightly defined the Spanish geography is. One peninsula for 1000's of years. One language for 1000's of years. One religion for 1000's of years. And within that very narrow band of global society ... you have a major and serious secession movement.
And the liberals keep telling themselves it can't happen here. We have all three in place, and I'd argue we have #2 and #3 STRONGER than Spain does. If we were looking down the barrel of a federal default right here right now like Spain is? I think this would be quite a bit more serious.
Well the Obama administration couldn't take care of number one any better than they have.
I will watch this VERY closely. Should be interesting.
Though you'll have to watch from online won't you? Because you won't see **** about it from CNN, MSNBC, Faux, NBC, CBS, ABC, or any of our other alleged "news" outlets. You'd think secession within a major western power would grab a journalist's attention, particularly when there are actual declarations and talks of war.
(03-02-2013 04:10 PM)georgia_tech_swagger Wrote: [ -> ]Spain has all the right ingredients in place.
1) Strong economic turmoil.
2) Strong regional identities.
3) Highly polarized political discussion that is high on empty drama and low on real issues and real solutions.
And think about how tightly defined the Spanish geography is. One peninsula for 1000's of years. One language for 1000's of years. One religion for 1000's of years. And within that very narrow band of global society ... you have a major and serious secession movement.
And the liberals keep telling themselves it can't happen here. We have all three in place, and I'd argue we have #2 and #3 STRONGER than Spain does. If we were looking down the barrel of a federal default right here right now like Spain is? I think this would be quite a bit more serious.
I would have to disagree about #2 being stronger here. I don't know of any U.S. region/group with identities as strong as the Catalans or Basques.
(03-02-2013 04:49 PM)BlazerFan11 Wrote: [ -> ]I would have to disagree about #2 being stronger here. I don't know of any U.S. region/group with identities as strong as the Catalans or Basques.
Texas. Texas has had over a quarter million votes for open secessionist candidates.
California.
The Deep South.
Hawaii.
Lesser so:
Alaska
Mountain West
New England, particularly Newark through Boston
Lesser Lesser So:
Great Plains
(03-02-2013 04:55 PM)georgia_tech_swagger Wrote: [ -> ] (03-02-2013 04:49 PM)BlazerFan11 Wrote: [ -> ]I would have to disagree about #2 being stronger here. I don't know of any U.S. region/group with identities as strong as the Catalans or Basques.
Texas. Texas has had over a quarter million votes for open secessionist candidates.
Out of 26 million in the state. Compare that to roughly half who support secession in Catalonia. Out of about 7.5 million total people in Catalonia, 1.5 million attended a recent pro-secession rally in Barcelona.
http://world.time.com/2012/09/11/barcelo...ter-weekly
(03-02-2013 07:02 PM)BlazerFan11 Wrote: [ -> ] (03-02-2013 04:55 PM)georgia_tech_swagger Wrote: [ -> ] (03-02-2013 04:49 PM)BlazerFan11 Wrote: [ -> ]I would have to disagree about #2 being stronger here. I don't know of any U.S. region/group with identities as strong as the Catalans or Basques.
Texas. Texas has had over a quarter million votes for open secessionist candidates.
Out of 26 million in the state. Compare that to roughly half who support secession in Catalonia. Out of about 7.5 million total people in Catalonia, 1.5 million attended a recent pro-secession rally in Barcelona.
http://world.time.com/2012/09/11/barcelo...ter-weekly
Dude was a fringe candidate. If you ran an open secessionist under the GOP banner in Texas they'd win.
(03-02-2013 04:10 PM)georgia_tech_swagger Wrote: [ -> ]One peninsula for 1000's of years. One language for 1000's of years.
Portugal/Portuguese? But I get ya.
(03-02-2013 12:37 PM)dcCid Wrote: [ -> ] (03-02-2013 12:28 PM)Bull_In_Exile Wrote: [ -> ] (03-02-2013 12:23 PM)Jugnaut Wrote: [ -> ]FT article link
Always funny to me that "democracies" will do whatever it takes to prevent a region from exercising it's inherent rights to self-government. Coming soon to the USA.
Came to the USA in 1860... Not saying that it was not a moral war worth fighting but the way reconstruction was handled pretty much killed a states ability to self govern and did *nothing* to prevent jim crow..
Agreed - but Jim Crow was a states rights issue. Catalan was also on the loosing side of the Spanish Civil war. While I have mixed emotions, balkanization has not proven effective.
No, Jim Crow was not a states rights issue. Since the signing of the constitution states have never had the right to violate a citizens federally protected constitutional rights.
People framed Jim Crow with states rights to buy support.
(03-02-2013 09:11 PM)RaiderATO Wrote: [ -> ] (03-02-2013 04:10 PM)georgia_tech_swagger Wrote: [ -> ]One peninsula for 1000's of years. One language for 1000's of years.
Portugal/Portuguese? But I get ya.
There are actually several languages in Spain, Castilian or what we know of as Spanish is the language of the crown but there are other dialects which are completely different like Catalan and Gallego. The basque language isn't even Spanish based but closer related to Croat, it's an ancient derivation.
The problem with Spain is that it's more of a confederation of regions ruled by a central government. Each region carries their own identity, think of it as how most texans identify themselves as Texas before Americans. Not to mention their devastating civil war still can be felt today. Theirs was different from ours in that lines weren't so clear like north vs south this was more like neighbor vs neighbor.
(03-02-2013 04:55 PM)georgia_tech_swagger Wrote: [ -> ] (03-02-2013 04:49 PM)BlazerFan11 Wrote: [ -> ]I would have to disagree about #2 being stronger here. I don't know of any U.S. region/group with identities as strong as the Catalans or Basques.
Texas. Texas has had over a quarter million votes for open secessionist candidates.
California.
The Deep South.
Hawaii.
Lesser so:
Alaska
Mountain West
New England, particularly Newark through Boston
Lesser Lesser So:
Great Plains
I still don't think those are as split as the Basque region and Catalonia. They aren't even that close to the Quebecois vs. the rest of Canada, Wales vs. England, etc.
Our problem is going to be the ideological differences within those regions.
![[Image: GETTY_P_103111_Ted%20Cruz.jpg?__SQUARESP...3385316723]](http://abcnewsradioonline.com/storage/news-images/GETTY_P_103111_Ted%20Cruz.jpg?__SQUARESPACE_CACHEVERSION=1343385316723)