I was just playing around with some info on school enrollment (grad and under grad) and stadium capacities for the Big 5 conferences with todays known current and future teams (of course, who knows what tomorrow will look like!). From an enrollment standpoint, there were not really any surprises - the ACC schools on average are much smaller then the other four conferences although the difference between the ACC and SEC / Big 12 was not as big as I expected. The ACC again had the smallest average stadium size but I was really surprised to see that there was not much difference between the ACC and the Big 12 / Pac 12. The last number listed for each school is the number of stadium seats per enrolled student. Not sure what this says except that there are a few schools with very large stadiums as compared to the size of the school - there were 5 schools with stadium capacities that were at least 4 times greater then the school enrollment and 4 of those 5 schools are in the ACC (if you count ND). The other thing (as has been pointed out in numerous other posts) is that the ACC has way more smallish private schools then any of the other conferences. Including ND, the ACC has six private schools compared to 2 for the Big 12 and one each for the BIG, SEC, and Pac 12.
SEC BIG
School Enroll Cap School Enroll Cap
Florida 49,589 88,548 1.8 Penn State 45,628 107,282 2.4
Alabama 31,647 101,000 3.2 Wisconsin 41,946 80,321 1.9
Kentucky 27,226 67,600 2.5 Iowa 29,810 70,585 2.4
Missouri 33,762 71,004 2.1 Illinois 44,407 69,249 1.6
Auburn 25,469 87,451 3.4 Indiana 42,731 52,692 1.2
Texas A&M 50,230 83,002 1.7 Nebraska 24,593 81,067 3.3
Tennessee 30,194 102,459 3.4 Michigan 42,716 109,901 2.6
Arkansas 23,199 72,000 3.1 Ohio State 56,867 102,329 1.8
Georgia 34,816 92,746 2.7 Purdue 40,849 62,500 1.5
Miss State 20,424 55,082 2.7 Northwest 20,959 49,256 2.4
LSU 29,718 92,400 3.1 Mich State 47,825 75,005 1.6
Vandy 12,836 39,790 3.1 Minnesota 52,557 50,805 1.0
Mississippi 18,224 60,850 3.3 Maryland 37,631 54,000 1.4
S Carolina 30,721 80,250 2.6 Rutgers 39,950 52,454 1.3
Average 29,861 78,156 2.6 Average 40,605 72,675 1.8
ACC Big 12
BC 14,754 44,500 3.0 TCU 9,518 50,000 5.3
Wake 7,351 31,500 4.3 K State 23,863 52,200 2.2
Ga Tech 20,941 55,000 2.6 OK State 24,390 60,218 2.5
Louisville 21,152 57,000 2.7 Baylor 15,029 50,000 3.3
NC State 34,767 57,583 1.7 TTU 32,327 61,000 1.9
FSU 41,087 84,300 2.1 Kansas 27,939 50,071 1.8
Miami 16,068 76,500 4.8 Oklahoma 27,138 82,112 3.0
UNC 29,137 60,000 2.1 WVU 29,617 60,180 2.0
Va Tech 30,936 66,233 2.1 Texas 51,112 100,119 2.0
Clemson 19,914 81,500 4.1 Iowa State 29,611 55,000 1.9
Virginia 24,297 61,500 2.5 Average 27,054 62,090 2.3
Duke 15,427 33,941 2.2
Syracuse 20,829 49,250 2.4
Pittsburgh 28,766 64,450 2.2
ND 12,002 80,795 6.7
Avg 22,495 60,270 2.7 With Out ND 23,245 58,804 2.5
Pac 12
Arizona 39,236 56,000 1.4
Oregon 24,396 54,000 2.2
Washington 42,444 72,500 1.7
Colorado 32,558 53,750 1.7
USC 38,010 92,000 2.4
Wash State 27,329 35,117 1.3
California 36,137 75,662 2.1
Oreg State 24,962 45,674 1.8
Utah 31,660 45,017 1.4
UCLA 39,271 91,136 2.3
Stanford 19,945 50,000 2.5
Ariz State 72,254 73,379 1.0
Average 35,684 62,020 1.7
Sorry ....... forgot to preview post. My "columns" got all screwed up - very difficult to read.
USC and Stanford are both private.
A little better but still not great (looks great in my spreadsheet). The first number is the enrollment, the second number is the stadium capacity, and the third number is the seats/student. The schools in red are the private schools.
SEC
Florida 49,589 88,548 1.8
Alabama 31,647 101,000 3.2
Kentucky 27,226 67,600 2.5
Missouri 33,762 71,004 2.1
Auburn 25,469 87,451 3.4
Texas A&M 50,230 83,002 1.7
Tennessee 30,194 102,459 3.4
Arkansas 23,199 72,000 3.1
Georgia 34,816 92,746 2.7
Miss State 20,424 55,082 2.7
LSU 29,718 92,400 3.1
Vanderbilt 12,836 39,790 3.1
Mississippi 18,224 60,850 3.3
S Carolina 30,721 80,250 2.6
Average 29,861 78,156 2.6
ACC
BC 14,754 44,500 3.0
Wake Forest 7,351 31,500 4.3
Georgia Tech 20,941 55,000 2.6
Louisville 21,152 57,000 2.7
NC State 34,767 57,583 1.7
FSU 41,087 84,300 2.1
Miami 16,068 76,500 4.8
UNC 29,137 60,000 2.1
Va Tech 30,936 66,233 2.1
Clemson 19,914 81,500 4.1
Virginia 24,297 61,500 2.5
Duke 15,427 33,941 2.2
Syracuse 20,829 49,250 2.4
Pittsburgh 28,766 64,450 2.2
Notre Dame 12,002 80,795 6.7
Avg with ND 22,495 60,270 2.7
With Out ND 23,245 58,804 2.5
Pac 12
Arizona 39,236 56,000 1.4
Oregon 24,396 54,000 2.2
Washington 42,444 72,500 1.7
Colorado 32,558 53,750 1.7
USC 38,010 92,000 2.4
Wash State 27,329 35,117 1.3
California 36,137 75,662 2.1
Oregon State 24,962 45,674 1.8
Utah 31,660 45,017 1.4
UCLA 39,271 91,136 2.3
Stanford 19,945 50,000 2.5
Ariz State 72,254 73,379 1.0
Average 35,684 62,020 1.7
BIG
Penn State 45,628 107,282 2.4
Wisconsin 41,946 80,321 1.9
Iowa 29,810 70,585 2.4
Illinois 44,407 69,249 1.6
Indiana 42,731 52,692 1.2
Nebraska 24,593 81,067 3.3
Michigan 42,716 109,901 2.6
Ohio State 56,867 102,329 1.8
Purdue 40,849 62,500 1.5
Northwestern 20,959 49,256 2.4
Mich State 47,825 75,005 1.6
Minnesota 52,557 50,805 1.0
Maryland 37,631 54,000 1.4
Rutgers 39,950 52,454 1.3
Average 40,605 72,675 1.8
Big 12
TCU 9,518 50,000 5.3
K State 23,863 52,200 2.2
OK State 24,390 60,218 2.5
Baylor 15,029 50,000 3.3
TTU 32,327 61,000 1.9
Kansas 27,939 50,071 1.8
Oklahoma 27,138 82,112 3.0
WVU 29,617 60,180 2.0
Texas 51,112 100,119 2.0
Iowa State 29,611 55,000 1.9
Average 27,054 62,090 2.3
(12-07-2012 07:01 PM)4x4hokies Wrote: [ -> ]USC and Stanford are both private.
Yep ........ missed USC as a private school.
(12-07-2012 06:40 PM)IR4CU Wrote: [ -> ]I was just playing around with some info on school enrollment (grad and under grad) and stadium capacities for the Big 5 conferences with todays known current and future teams (of course, who knows what tomorrow will look like!). From an enrollment standpoint, there were not really any surprises - the ACC schools on average are much smaller then the other four conferences although the difference between the ACC and SEC / Big 12 was not as big as I expected. The ACC again had the smallest average stadium size but I was really surprised to see that there was not much difference between the ACC and the Big 12 / Pac 12. The last number listed for each school is the number of stadium seats per enrolled student. Not sure what this says except that there are a few schools with very large stadiums as compared to the size of the school - there were 5 schools with stadium capacities that were at least 4 times greater then the school enrollment and 4 of those 5 schools are in the ACC (if you count ND). The other thing (as has been pointed out in numerous other posts) is that the ACC has way more smallish private schools then any of the other conferences. Including ND, the ACC has six private schools compared to 2 for the Big 12 and one each for the BIG, SEC, and Pac 12.
SEC BIG
School Enroll Cap School Enroll Cap
Florida 49,589 88,548 1.8 Penn State 45,628 107,282 2.4
Alabama 31,647 101,000 3.2 Wisconsin 41,946 80,321 1.9
Kentucky 27,226 67,600 2.5 Iowa 29,810 70,585 2.4
Missouri 33,762 71,004 2.1 Illinois 44,407 69,249 1.6
Auburn 25,469 87,451 3.4 Indiana 42,731 52,692 1.2
Texas A&M 50,230 83,002 1.7 Nebraska 24,593 81,067 3.3
Tennessee 30,194 102,459 3.4 Michigan 42,716 109,901 2.6
Arkansas 23,199 72,000 3.1 Ohio State 56,867 102,329 1.8
Georgia 34,816 92,746 2.7 Purdue 40,849 62,500 1.5
Miss State 20,424 55,082 2.7 Northwest 20,959 49,256 2.4
LSU 29,718 92,400 3.1 Mich State 47,825 75,005 1.6
Vandy 12,836 39,790 3.1 Minnesota 52,557 50,805 1.0
Mississippi 18,224 60,850 3.3 Maryland 37,631 54,000 1.4
S Carolina 30,721 80,250 2.6 Rutgers 39,950 52,454 1.3
Average 29,861 78,156 2.6 Average 40,605 72,675 1.8
ACC Big 12
BC 14,754 44,500 3.0 TCU 9,518 50,000 5.3
Wake 7,351 31,500 4.3 K State 23,863 52,200 2.2
Ga Tech 20,941 55,000 2.6 OK State 24,390 60,218 2.5
Louisville 21,152 57,000 2.7 Baylor 15,029 50,000 3.3
NC State 34,767 57,583 1.7 TTU 32,327 61,000 1.9
FSU 41,087 84,300 2.1 Kansas 27,939 50,071 1.8
Miami 16,068 76,500 4.8 Oklahoma 27,138 82,112 3.0
UNC 29,137 60,000 2.1 WVU 29,617 60,180 2.0
Va Tech 30,936 66,233 2.1 Texas 51,112 100,119 2.0
Clemson 19,914 81,500 4.1 Iowa State 29,611 55,000 1.9
Virginia 24,297 61,500 2.5 Average 27,054 62,090 2.3
Duke 15,427 33,941 2.2
Syracuse 20,829 49,250 2.4
Pittsburgh 28,766 64,450 2.2
ND 12,002 80,795 6.7
Avg 22,495 60,270 2.7 With Out ND 23,245 58,804 2.5
Pac 12
Arizona 39,236 56,000 1.4
Oregon 24,396 54,000 2.2
Washington 42,444 72,500 1.7
Colorado 32,558 53,750 1.7
USC 38,010 92,000 2.4
Wash State 27,329 35,117 1.3
California 36,137 75,662 2.1
Oreg State 24,962 45,674 1.8
Utah 31,660 45,017 1.4
UCLA 39,271 91,136 2.3
Stanford 19,945 50,000 2.5
Ariz State 72,254 73,379 1.0
Average 35,684 62,020 1.7
PSU is tricky - system-wide it's just over 95k, but State College is ranked seperately for most fields of study (but not all - i.e. law). Arguably, PSU is not 45k, it's 95k. In terms of fan support from grads (which is most relevant), I think the 95k number is more accurate (esp. since you counted ASU system-wide).
Also, as has been pointed out several times, USCalifornia is private (and so is Stanford). But what has not been pointed out is that Pitt is state-related and historically private, and PSU is state-related (but historically public). Both are technically not considered "public" by many. They are in their own catagory.
The state school system in PA is complicated. I don't fully understand it myself.
I think looking at this one thing stands out.....
avg stadium size:
SEC 78,156
B10 72,675
B12 62,090
P12 62,020
ACC 58,804
I guess I never realized how much higher SEC was than even the Big 10. and think about this- if every ticket was worth 10 dollars, and every team got 6 home games in the conferences...
SEC 65,651,040 4,689,360 per school
B10 61,047,000 4,360,000 per school
B12 37,254,000 3,725,400 per school
P12 44,654,400 3,721,200 per school
ACC 49,395,360 3,528,240 per school
That's a pretty huge gap in gates... and I know not all the seats are $10 bucks, but just using that as an equal thing.
And, what's amazing to me-
FSU- if in SEC- would be the 7th largest stadium
Clemson- if in SEC(along with FSU)- would be 9th largest stadium
I thought that was the Big Ten with all the huge stadiums, not the SEC....
Excellent work, IR4CU!
Size DOES matter in some things, and sports revenue is certainly one of them.
On the other hand, it's worth noting how small Notre Dame is. ACC schools have always gotten support from non-alumni. To me this says we cannot just follow the SEC model - maybe we need to follow the Notre Dame "play anyone, any time" approach?
(12-08-2012 06:07 AM)Hokie Mark Wrote: [ -> ]Excellent work, IR4CU!
Size DOES matter in some things, and sports revenue is certainly one of them.
On the other hand, it's worth noting how small Notre Dame is. ACC schools have always gotten support from non-alumni. To me this says we cannot just follow the SEC model - maybe we need to follow the Notre Dame "play anyone, any time" approach?
I think we need to follow the Al Davis approach and "just win baby!"
(12-08-2012 01:53 AM)stever20 Wrote: [ -> ]I think looking at this one thing stands out.....
avg stadium size:
SEC 78,156
B10 72,675
B12 62,090
P12 62,020
ACC 58,804
I guess I never realized how much higher SEC was than even the Big 10. and think about this- if every ticket was worth 10 dollars, and every team got 6 home games in the conferences...
SEC 65,651,040 4,689,360 per school
B10 61,047,000 4,360,000 per school
B12 37,254,000 3,725,400 per school
P12 44,654,400 3,721,200 per school
ACC 49,395,360 3,528,240 per school
That's a pretty huge gap in gates... and I know not all the seats are $10 bucks, but just using that as an equal thing.
And, what's amazing to me-
FSU- if in SEC- would be the 7th largest stadium
Clemson- if in SEC(along with FSU)- would be 9th largest stadium
I thought that was the Big Ten with all the huge stadiums, not the SEC....
It's interesting that the ACC matches the SEC in the number of excess seats over the student population while having the smallest average enrollment. Many of the ACC venues have been upgraded in the last 10-15 years to add more capacity.
In the last 20 years Kenan Stadium capacity has increased from 48,000 to 63,200 (with the addition last year of "the blue zone" ((3,200 capacity multi-level luxury suites)) which is part two of a threee phase expansion.)
In effect the ACC stadiums are just as large as the SEC's based on student population.
(12-07-2012 07:04 PM)IR4CU Wrote: [ -> ]A little better but still not great (looks great in my spreadsheet). The first number is the enrollment, the second number is the stadium capacity, and the third number is the seats/student. The schools in red are the private schools.
SEC
Florida 49,589 88,548 1.8
Alabama 31,647 101,000 3.2
Kentucky 27,226 67,600 2.5
Missouri 33,762 71,004 2.1
Auburn 25,469 87,451 3.4
Texas A&M 50,230 83,002 1.7
Tennessee 30,194 102,459 3.4
Arkansas 23,199 72,000 3.1
Georgia 34,816 92,746 2.7
Miss State 20,424 55,082 2.7
LSU 29,718 92,400 3.1
Vanderbilt 12,836 39,790 3.1
Mississippi 18,224 60,850 3.3
S Carolina 30,721 80,250 2.6
Average 29,861 78,156 2.6
ACC
BC 14,754 44,500 3.0
Wake Forest 7,351 31,500 4.3
Georgia Tech 20,941 55,000 2.6
Louisville 21,152 57,000 2.7
NC State 34,767 57,583 1.7
FSU 41,087 84,300 2.1
Miami 16,068 76,500 4.8
UNC 29,137 60,000 2.1
Va Tech 30,936 66,233 2.1
Clemson 19,914 81,500 4.1
Virginia 24,297 61,500 2.5
Duke 15,427 33,941 2.2
Syracuse 20,829 49,250 2.4
*Pittsburgh 28,766 64,450 2.2
Notre Dame 12,002 80,795 6.7
Avg with ND 22,495 60,270 2.7
With Out ND 23,245 58,804 2.5
Pac 12
Arizona 39,236 56,000 1.4
Oregon 24,396 54,000 2.2
Washington 42,444 72,500 1.7
Colorado 32,558 53,750 1.7
USC 38,010 92,000 2.4
Wash State 27,329 35,117 1.3
California 36,137 75,662 2.1
Oregon State 24,962 45,674 1.8
Utah 31,660 45,017 1.4
UCLA 39,271 91,136 2.3
Stanford 19,945 50,000 2.5
Ariz State 72,254 73,379 1.0
Average 35,684 62,020 1.7
B1G
*Penn State 95,833 107,282 1.12
Wisconsin 41,946 80,321 1.9
Iowa 29,810 70,585 2.4
Illinois 44,407 69,249 1.6
Indiana 42,731 52,692 1.2
Nebraska 24,593 81,067 3.3
Michigan 42,716 109,901 2.6
Ohio State 56,867 102,329 1.8
Purdue 40,849 62,500 1.5
Northwestern 20,959 49,256 2.4
Mich State 47,825 75,005 1.6
Minnesota 52,557 50,805 1.0
Maryland 37,631 54,000 1.4
Rutgers 39,950 52,454 1.3
Average 44,191 72,675 1.6
Big 12
TCU 9,518 50,000 5.3
K State 23,863 52,200 2.2
OK State 24,390 60,218 2.5
Baylor 15,029 50,000 3.3
TTU 32,327 61,000 1.9
Kansas 27,939 50,071 1.8
Oklahoma 27,138 82,112 3.0
WVU 29,617 60,180 2.0
Texas 51,112 100,119 2.0
Iowa State 29,611 55,000 1.9
Average 27,054 62,090 2.3
I fixed it.
(12-08-2012 06:07 AM)Hokie Mark Wrote: [ -> ]Excellent work, IR4CU!
Size DOES matter in some things, and sports revenue is certainly one of them.
On the other hand, it's worth noting how small Notre Dame is. ACC schools have always gotten support from non-alumni. To me this says we cannot just follow the SEC model - maybe we need to follow the Notre Dame "play anyone, any time" approach?
I see that ND has the largest seats/student ratio in the country.
I think that ND could expand its stadium to 125,000 and sell it out.
They have sold out every game since around 1964, except a Thanksgiving Day game in 1973.
The priests that run ND resisted expanding the stadium for years before the 1997 expansion from 59,000 to 80,875.
I'd like to see it expanded again to 90,000-100,000 but the administration is against it .
ND leaves a lot of revenue sources off the table. I am happy about no advertising at the stadium, no naming rights fee (That would be a sacrilege!) and no Jumbotron (for now).
But, I do think that expanding the stadium size again would be a good move.
Total enrollment is not as relevant as undergrad enrollment. Grad and professional students to not fill stadium nor do they form attachments to their schools they way undergrads do.
(12-08-2012 01:36 AM)ndlutz Wrote: [ -> ]The state school system in PA is complicated. I don't fully understand it myself.
There are two "public" systems in PA.
The purely public, state-owned and operated schools are part of the Pennsylvania State System of Higher Education (PASSHE). This comprises 14 Division II schools that are all members of the PSAC athletic conference.
The following schools are PSAC schools:
Bloomsburg, California (PA), Cheyney, Clarion, East Stroudsburg, Edinboro, Indiana (PA), Kutztown, Lock Haven, Mansfield, Millersville, Shippensburg, Slippery Rock, and West Chester.
The other system is Commonwealth System of Higher Education. The four schools in this system are privately governed but receive state appropriations to subsidize their budgets in exchange for offering tuition discounts for in-state students. It is a hybrid system often termed "state-related". Such a system exists no where else in the US.
The schools in the Commonwealth System are Lincoln, Penn State, Pitt, and Temple.
Lincoln, Pitt, and Temple were all fully private until the mid-1960s. Penn State was founded as a land grant so its history is pretty different having been always closely associated with the state. Essentially though, they way they operate, it is more accurate to think of them as private, state-related universities, especially Lincoln, Pitt, and Temple. This is also why they aren't subject to open records laws, as became an issue during Penn State's Child Sex Abuse Scandal.
They all get only around 8% of the budgets from the state, which is among the lowest in the nation, and why all of them have some of the most expensive "public" school tuitions in the nation.
Branch campuses of Penn State, Pitt, and Temple were institutional decisions to create. Pitt's 4 regional campuses (Johnstown, Greensburg, Bradford, and Titusville) were founded before it became a public institution. The first three are four year schools while Titusville is a tiny 2-year school that essentially now operates as a branch of the Bradford campus. Temple has a branch in Ambler (Philly suburb) and Japan. Penn State's 19 undergrad branches all started as junior colleges that were transformed into four-year campuses over the vigorous objections of the PASSHE (as there is quite a bit of service overlap and, really, tax payer waste). I will add, as well, Penn State's campuses, other than a the top handful (Erie, Altoona, Harrisburg), are very poor academically. There is also no difference in a diploma from Penn State-University Park (main campus) than any of their 19 branches. 60% of Penn State's students actually transfer from one of the branches as those schools are typically used as a feeder system for University Park, but their admissions and other statistics (nor to their large on-line college) are never included in published materials for Penn State-University Park.
Thanks for clearing that up.
I knew PSU, Pitt, and Temple were in a different group. Is Lincoln in Philadelphia as well? I don't think I've ever heard of that school.
I live about 20 minutes from Bloomsburg and have many friends who went to Bloom U.
(12-08-2012 03:28 PM)ndlutz Wrote: [ -> ]Thanks for clearing that up.
I knew PSU, Pitt, and Temple were in a different group. Is Lincoln in Philadelphia as well? I don't think I've ever heard of that school.
I live about 20 minutes from Bloomsburg and have many friends who went to Bloom U.
It is a small (~2500 students), historically black college located in Chester County. It has a extension location for grad studies in Philly.