CSNbbs

http://www.al.com/sports/index.ssf/2012/...y_off.html

What a load. Would've completely turned the game around.

Maybe they owed North Texas one before they bolted for C-USA.

The Jags have been hosed a number of times this year. This is no surprise. But at least the league acknowledges the mistake. Maybe it will make the refs better? One could hope.

There is no reason why a replay ref to get a call wrong, you got all day and 14 different views in super slow motion. How do you screw that up???

(11-13-2012 06:00 PM)Usajags Wrote: [ -> ]There is no reason why a replay ref to get a call wrong, you got all day and 14 different views in super slow motion. How do you screw that up???

You don't.

You choose to...

dumbest thing ever regarding the arkansas state ruling. give david oku the touchdown credit then and add a yard to his total. a team as fast as ours has the ability to line up quickly for the extra point and snap the ball before its looked at. sometimes it really does seem like Mr. Karl has it out for ASU.

No mention of the botched onside call?

First downs
USA - 24
UNT - 12

Third downs
USA - 8
UNT - 2

Time of possession:
USA - 33:08
UNT - 26:52

Total Yards:
USA - 366
UNT - 303

This play was a huge turning point in the game.

I would like to know how many times officials (on the field and replay) have been reprimanded. I have watched a number of games (mostly ULM of course) and I am flabbergasted at the poor mechanics and missed calls....both ways before someone wants to turn this into a p#ssing contest!!

I know that replay for SBC games is limited due to the number of camera angles. Most of our games are not nationally televised and we do not have the number of cameras to provide different angles. Generally at most we have maybe 3 to take a look. I did not see the play for the USA NT game but no real reason an on field official misses the ball hitting the pylon or not.....and really no reason for the replay official to miss it.

Someone made the comment about the ASU ULM game and how fast ASU runs plays. It means that replay officials have to get better at "getting a feeling" that it needs to be looked at and buzzing down to stop the play. I know ASU fans don't want to hear that but if we are going to have replay officials to get it right, then that is a price to pay.

Now, as for the on field officiating!!!! I watched the ASU ULM game in a bar (no sound). Now on the two plays where there was a question of an illegal forward pass, they got both calls right and the replay official got it right (Wells and Alpin). However, on the one for ASU, the officials missed at least 2 ASU linemen down field at least 4 yards. I thought that was what they were reviewing because I couldn't hear....didn't even think it was an illegal forward pass.

We have all seen screwed up calls in our games. And we all have seen the same officials show up for our games. As a matter of fact, the same officiating crew that worked the ASU ULM game was the same group that enforced a PI penalty incorrect (full 15 yards as oppsed to half the distance).

We have to get a commissioner and a director of officiating that are willing to sit folks down and make a concerted effort to get good officials on the field. The conference has tolerated mediocre officiating for too long.

I bet Alabama thought they had a sure thing touchdown at the end of the game too ... Can't assume anything would happen

This doesn't shock me. FAU had a replay go against them at MTSU when replay clearly showed that the ruling on the field was wrong. Even the MTSU announcer was surprised at the result. I'm glad the SBC is finally doing something about the officiating.

(11-14-2012 10:03 AM)InjunJohn Wrote: [ -> ]I would like to know how many times officials (on the field and replay) have been reprimanded. I have watched a number of games (mostly ULM of course) and I am flabbergasted at the poor mechanics and missed calls....both ways before someone wants to turn this into a p#ssing contest!!

I know that replay for SBC games is limited due to the number of camera angles. Most of our games are not nationally televised and we do not have the number of cameras to provide different angles. Generally at most we have maybe 3 to take a look. I did not see the play for the USA NT game but no real reason an on field official misses the ball hitting the pylon or not.....and really no reason for the replay official to miss it.

Someone made the comment about the ASU ULM game and how fast ASU runs plays. It means that replay officials have to get better at "getting a feeling" that it needs to be looked at and buzzing down to stop the play. I know ASU fans don't want to hear that but if we are going to have replay officials to get it right, then that is a price to pay.

Now, as for the on field officiating!!!! I watched the ASU ULM game in a bar (no sound). Now on the two plays where there was a question of an illegal forward pass, they got both calls right and the replay official got it right (Wells and Alpin). However, on the one for ASU, the officials missed at least 2 ASU linemen down field at least 4 yards. I thought that was what they were reviewing because I couldn't hear....didn't even think it was an illegal forward pass.

We have all seen screwed up calls in our games. And we all have seen the same officials show up for our games. As a matter of fact, the same officiating crew that worked the ASU ULM game was the same group that enforced a PI penalty incorrect (full 15 yards as oppsed to half the distance).

We have to get a commissioner and a director of officiating that are willing to sit folks down and make a concerted effort to get good officials on the field. The conference has tolerated mediocre officiating for too long.

I will say this is a major step up for the commissioner & conference. Prior to the current commissioner there was a rule that there would be no public recognition or admission of any errors made or punishment of officiating crews or individual referees. I have to believe an admission of errors is at least the first step in correcting the long held belief that the SBC football officials were one of the worst in the country. I would have liked a few more statements during the year to explain some of the calls just during the TV games where they have obvious visual evidence.

(11-14-2012 10:03 AM)InjunJohn Wrote: [ -> ]I would like to know how many times officials (on the field and replay) have been reprimanded. I have watched a number of games (mostly ULM of course) and I am flabbergasted at the poor mechanics and missed calls....both ways before someone wants to turn this into a p#ssing contest!!

I know that replay for SBC games is limited due to the number of camera angles. Most of our games are not nationally televised and we do not have the number of cameras to provide different angles. Generally at most we have maybe 3 to take a look. I did not see the play for the USA NT game but no real reason an on field official misses the ball hitting the pylon or not.....and really no reason for the replay official to miss it.

Someone made the comment about the ASU ULM game and how fast ASU runs plays. It means that replay officials have to get better at "getting a feeling" that it needs to be looked at and buzzing down to stop the play. I know ASU fans don't want to hear that but if we are going to have replay officials to get it right, then that is a price to pay.

Now, as for the on field officiating!!!! I watched the ASU ULM game in a bar (no sound). Now on the two plays where there was a question of an illegal forward pass, they got both calls right and the replay official got it right (Wells and Alpin). However, on the one for ASU, the officials missed at least 2 ASU linemen down field at least 4 yards. I thought that was what they were reviewing because I couldn't hear....didn't even think it was an illegal forward pass.

We have all seen screwed up calls in our games. And we all have seen the same officials show up for our games. As a matter of fact, the same officiating crew that worked the ASU ULM game was the same group that enforced a PI penalty incorrect (full 15 yards as oppsed to half the distance).

We have to get a commissioner and a director of officiating that are willing to sit folks down and make a concerted effort to get good officials on the field. The conference has tolerated mediocre officiating for too long.

So, you do realize that all games are reviewed by the same camera count and set up regardless of how many ESPN cameras might be there. The belt decided when it went to instant replay system that all teams be governed by the same criteria, and not have a team getting a better or worse outcome because on some game they have better abilities to review.

(11-14-2012 11:24 AM)CajunExpress Wrote: [ -> ]

(11-14-2012 10:03 AM)InjunJohn Wrote: [ -> ]I would like to know how many times officials (on the field and replay) have been reprimanded. I have watched a number of games (mostly ULM of course) and I am flabbergasted at the poor mechanics and missed calls....both ways before someone wants to turn this into a p#ssing contest!!

I know that replay for SBC games is limited due to the number of camera angles. Most of our games are not nationally televised and we do not have the number of cameras to provide different angles. Generally at most we have maybe 3 to take a look. I did not see the play for the USA NT game but no real reason an on field official misses the ball hitting the pylon or not.....and really no reason for the replay official to miss it.

Someone made the comment about the ASU ULM game and how fast ASU runs plays. It means that replay officials have to get better at "getting a feeling" that it needs to be looked at and buzzing down to stop the play. I know ASU fans don't want to hear that but if we are going to have replay officials to get it right, then that is a price to pay.

Now, as for the on field officiating!!!! I watched the ASU ULM game in a bar (no sound). Now on the two plays where there was a question of an illegal forward pass, they got both calls right and the replay official got it right (Wells and Alpin). However, on the one for ASU, the officials missed at least 2 ASU linemen down field at least 4 yards. I thought that was what they were reviewing because I couldn't hear....didn't even think it was an illegal forward pass.

We have all seen screwed up calls in our games. And we all have seen the same officials show up for our games. As a matter of fact, the same officiating crew that worked the ASU ULM game was the same group that enforced a PI penalty incorrect (full 15 yards as oppsed to half the distance).

We have to get a commissioner and a director of officiating that are willing to sit folks down and make a concerted effort to get good officials on the field. The conference has tolerated mediocre officiating for too long.

So, you do realize that all games are reviewed by the same camera count and set up regardless of how many ESPN cameras might be there. The belt decided when it went to instant replay system that all teams be governed by the same criteria, and not have a team getting a better or worse outcome because on some game they have better abilities to review.

I did not know that....it used to be that the replay officials had access to all the angles. Thanks.

(11-14-2012 11:24 AM)CajunExpress Wrote: [ -> ]So, you do realize that all games are reviewed by the same camera count and set up regardless of how many ESPN cameras might be there. The belt decided when it went to instant replay system that all teams be governed by the same criteria, and not have a team getting a better or worse outcome because on some game they have better abilities to review.

We started taking telecast feeds with the permanent cameras last year.

Here is my beef.

What did the Sun Belt gain?

Almost every fan walks into the stadium with the belief that the refs are going to screw them before the ball is placed on the tee to start the game.

Go check the ASU and ULM boards. No one at all noticed the error.

The ASU reaction has been basically, that the league used replay to suspend a top defensive player for the WKU game despite the fact that the supervisor of officials reviewed the play (which was flagged) and said in his email "I do not think either merited ejections or further action. No launching in either case or cheap shots." Now the league calls out an official for what was likely a score anyway (still got to hand the ball of clean). The perception created is that the conference wanted to place a cloud on the ASU win, a win that caused a lot of positive publicity in the state due to who ULM beat at the start of the year.

So net result, ASU fans see it as league bias.

What about ULM fans? They woke up that morning believing the call was correct and more than one ULM fan had noted they felt they had mostly come out ahead on the calls and failed to take advantage of what breaks they had.

The reaction last time I checked the ULM board is that their belief that officiating is sub-par has been confirmed.

Many a bored professor has analyzed the close calls in football and consistently found the refs get it right 88% to 92% of the time, on close calls.

The net gain for the league with the announcement is that ASU fans now have evidence to confirm their bias that assumes the Sun Belt is anti-ASU. ULM fans have had their bias assuming that the refs are mostly wrong confirmed. Two officials who have to have developed a solid body of work at lower levels are now called out publicly as incompetent. If they are like most replay officials, they have a solid body of work on the field before being moved up to the booth (usually due to age or physical limits).

I'm not sure I see where anything beneficial came of it.

Obviously in a case where fans saw the play and the media is addressing it, a public announcement can have some benefit. Otherwise, ding the guy from post-season and if he isn't grading high enough, replace him with some up and comer.

Take a page from Fox or even the NFL and use your league web site to explain key plays and focus on the eternal churn (ie. your best officials get hired by the Big XII and SEC, you cut loose your worst and work hard to bring up new guys). In the past we've had a problem with officials content to work FCS games or even Division II games rather than make a few bucks more working the Sun Belt. I don't know that calling out a ref in a situation that wasn't a topic of discussion is going to improve the level of guy wanting to work our league.

(11-14-2012 11:46 AM)arkstfan Wrote: [ -> ]

(11-14-2012 11:24 AM)CajunExpress Wrote: [ -> ]So, you do realize that all games are reviewed by the same camera count and set up regardless of how many ESPN cameras might be there. The belt decided when it went to instant replay system that all teams be governed by the same criteria, and not have a team getting a better or worse outcome because on some game they have better abilities to review.

We started taking telecast feeds with the permanent cameras last year.

Here is my beef.

What did the Sun Belt gain?

Almost every fan walks into the stadium with the belief that the refs are going to screw them before the ball is placed on the tee to start the game.

Go check the ASU and ULM boards. No one at all noticed the error.

The ASU reaction has been basically, that the league used replay to suspend a top defensive player for the WKU game despite the fact that the supervisor of officials reviewed the play (which was flagged) and said in his email "I do not think either merited ejections or further action. No launching in either case or cheap shots." Now the league calls out an official for what was likely a score anyway (still got to hand the ball of clean). The perception created is that the conference wanted to place a cloud on the ASU win, a win that caused a lot of positive publicity in the state due to who ULM beat at the start of the year.

So net result, ASU fans see it as league bias.

What about ULM fans? They woke up that morning believing the call was correct and more than one ULM fan had noted they felt they had mostly come out ahead on the calls and failed to take advantage of what breaks they had.

The reaction last time I checked the ULM board is that their belief that officiating is sub-par has been confirmed.

Many a bored professor has analyzed the close calls in football and consistently found the refs get it right 88% to 92% of the time, on close calls.

The net gain for the league with the announcement is that ASU fans now have evidence to confirm their bias that assumes the Sun Belt is anti-ASU. ULM fans have had their bias assuming that the refs are mostly wrong confirmed. Two officials who have to have developed a solid body of work at lower levels are now called out publicly as incompetent. If they are like most replay officials, they have a solid body of work on the field before being moved up to the booth (usually due to age or physical limits).

I'm not sure I see where anything beneficial came of it.

Obviously in a case where fans saw the play and the media is addressing it, a public announcement can have some benefit. Otherwise, ding the guy from post-season and if he isn't grading high enough, replace him with some up and comer.

Take a page from Fox or even the NFL and use your league web site to explain key plays and focus on the eternal churn (ie. your best officials get hired by the Big XII and SEC, you cut loose your worst and work hard to bring up new guys). In the past we've had a problem with officials content to work FCS games or even Division II games rather than make a few bucks more working the Sun Belt. I don't know that calling out a ref in a situation that wasn't a topic of discussion is going to improve the level of guy wanting to work our league.

I understand your point and, as a whole, agree with it. I do look at the game a heck of a lot differently due to the fact that I officiated football for 14 years (not at the NCAA level). I have friends who officiate in the ACC, Big East, and CUSA. It changes your perspective on the game. I still find myself counting players and looking for the number of backs. I get more ticked when I see a call (or non call) and the official was out of position (position is everything).

I know these guys get game film and a critique for every game. Standard practice. I know that we are not seeing the best of college level officials (pay and prestige). Perhaps these guys are getting hammered hard for their mistakes. Maybe that is transmitted to the member schools and we, the fans, don't get that information.

The problem is that perception is reality to the average fan. Sometimes we see what we think is a penalty but isn't. Sometimes it is but not called (advantage gained?). Sometimes the guy just screwed up and we are more forgiving if it went against the opponent. I get that. But there are times when they truly screw the pooch and we see those same officials back on the field at another game and there seems to be no repercussions for they poor performance. That is what feeds into the fans of member organizations who have their preconceived notions of what is going to happen (similar to your post). This just feeds the notion that the SBC is willing to accept mediocre officiating and we should just live with it. Perhaps this is a step in the right direction. At least it will give us, the fans, the feeling that the SBC is taking this serious and working to provide the best product on the field.

(11-14-2012 12:01 PM)InjunJohn Wrote: [ -> ]I understand your point and, as a whole, agree with it. I do look at the game a heck of a lot differently due to the fact that I officiated football for 14 years (not at the NCAA level). I have friends who officiate in the ACC, Big East, and CUSA. It changes your perspective on the game. I still find myself counting players and looking for the number of backs. I get more ticked when I see a call (or non call) and the official was out of position (position is everything).

I know these guys get game film and a critique for every game. Standard practice. I know that we are not seeing the best of college level officials (pay and prestige). Perhaps these guys are getting hammered hard for their mistakes. Maybe that is transmitted to the member schools and we, the fans, don't get that information.

The problem is that perception is reality to the average fan. Sometimes we see what we think is a penalty but isn't. Sometimes it is but not called (advantage gained?). Sometimes the guy just screwed up and we are more forgiving if it went against the opponent. I get that. But there are times when they truly screw the pooch and we see those same officials back on the field at another game and there seems to be no repercussions for they poor performance. That is what feeds into the fans of member organizations who have their preconceived notions of what is going to happen (similar to your post). This just feeds the notion that the SBC is willing to accept mediocre officiating and we should just live with it. Perhaps this is a step in the right direction. At least it will give us, the fans, the feeling that the SBC is taking this serious and working to provide the best product on the field.

I think anyone who saw this league 12 years ago or even five years ago who understands the game has to admit that bad mechanics are much more rarely seen today. Like the caliber of play, we are improving the product and the officiating.

I don't have a great deal of officiating experience but I know that if the players are playing poorly the officials tend to follow them down that path.

You know the thing is, as bad as the replacement refs were in the NFL, they still did a mostly good job with a some very very noticeable exceptions. When you consider they were working under a different rulebook AND seeing 22 players on the field bigger and faster than the best player they normally saw in Division II and III games (at least one had only high school experience) their performance while poor was better than I anticipated. Yet those refs are guys who haven't performed well enough to get pulled up to the WAC, Sun Belt, MAC level. Three were Pac-12 refs who had been fired for poor performance.

The officials are going to make errors. They don't make them at the rate we the fans believe they do but they do all make mistakes. The best in the NFL still have an error rate of 5% to 10% depending on how you measure performance.

I just have a real problem with publicly calling out an error when no one involved was upset. To me its like pick-up basketball where you call your own fouls. Any pick-up game is going to have a lot of fouls that any decent high school, college or NBA ref would call that the player won't call on his opponent. The player knows it was a foul but doesn't believe it impacted his play enough to raise it. I take sort of the same approach. If the players and coaches didn't think it was an issue, why raise it in a public manner even though it absolutely should be used in evaluation.

(11-14-2012 03:36 PM)arkstfan Wrote: [ -> ]

(11-14-2012 12:01 PM)InjunJohn Wrote: [ -> ]I understand your point and, as a whole, agree with it. I do look at the game a heck of a lot differently due to the fact that I officiated football for 14 years (not at the NCAA level). I have friends who officiate in the ACC, Big East, and CUSA. It changes your perspective on the game. I still find myself counting players and looking for the number of backs. I get more ticked when I see a call (or non call) and the official was out of position (position is everything).

I know these guys get game film and a critique for every game. Standard practice. I know that we are not seeing the best of college level officials (pay and prestige). Perhaps these guys are getting hammered hard for their mistakes. Maybe that is transmitted to the member schools and we, the fans, don't get that information.

The problem is that perception is reality to the average fan. Sometimes we see what we think is a penalty but isn't. Sometimes it is but not called (advantage gained?). Sometimes the guy just screwed up and we are more forgiving if it went against the opponent. I get that. But there are times when they truly screw the pooch and we see those same officials back on the field at another game and there seems to be no repercussions for they poor performance. That is what feeds into the fans of member organizations who have their preconceived notions of what is going to happen (similar to your post). This just feeds the notion that the SBC is willing to accept mediocre officiating and we should just live with it. Perhaps this is a step in the right direction. At least it will give us, the fans, the feeling that the SBC is taking this serious and working to provide the best product on the field.

I think anyone who saw this league 12 years ago or even five years ago who understands the game has to admit that bad mechanics are much more rarely seen today. Like the caliber of play, we are improving the product and the officiating.

I don't have a great deal of officiating experience but I know that if the players are playing poorly the officials tend to follow them down that path.

You know the thing is, as bad as the replacement refs were in the NFL, they still did a mostly good job with a some very very noticeable exceptions. When you consider they were working under a different rulebook AND seeing 22 players on the field bigger and faster than the best player they normally saw in Division II and III games (at least one had only high school experience) their performance while poor was better than I anticipated. Yet those refs are guys who haven't performed well enough to get pulled up to the WAC, Sun Belt, MAC level. Three were Pac-12 refs who had been fired for poor performance.

The officials are going to make errors. They don't make them at the rate we the fans believe they do but they do all make mistakes. The best in the NFL still have an error rate of 5% to 10% depending on how you measure performance.

I just have a real problem with publicly calling out an error when no one involved was upset. To me its like pick-up basketball where you call your own fouls. Any pick-up game is going to have a lot of fouls that any decent high school, college or NBA ref would call that the player won't call on his opponent. The player knows it was a foul but doesn't believe it impacted his play enough to raise it. I take sort of the same approach. If the players and coaches didn't think it was an issue, why raise it in a public manner even though it absolutely should be used in evaluation.

I am not saying calling them out on every little thing. I tend to give them (officials) more benefit of the doubt than the average fan (I do let my inner fan get p#ssed off on occasion). But I do think that if you are going to suspend someone then, yes we the fans should no. Makes us feel that the conference is really trying to improve top to bottom in all things.

These two replay officials were suspended for significant errors. Did they change the outcome of the game? In the USA NT game, quite possibly. In the ASU ULM game, probably not. The other thing we do not know (at least I don't) is were there other calls from other games that caused a reprimand but no suspension?

We (the SBC) are not getting top flight college officials. The good ones we have are looking to make that jump to the BCS conferences.....more money, bigger games, better opportunity to make it to the NFL. The SBC is a stepping stone. We are going to have to live with that. They are going to miss calls. I will give them that. But can't live with them screwing up the things that they shouldn't.

One thing changing from the Tubby era. Some players ejected will not be out the next week. In other words common sense and a review of the play will determine if a player gets ejected plus another week. Now we may not like the final outcome, but that is way better than being blind to all circumstances that may be part of an individual play.

(11-14-2012 04:31 PM)CajunExpress Wrote: [ -> ]One thing changing from the Tubby era. Some players ejected will not be out the next week. In other words common sense and a review of the play will determine if a player gets ejected plus another week. Now we may not like the final outcome, but that is way better than being blind to all circumstances that may be part of an individual play.

Just wait until the refs flag one of your players but doesn't eject them and the supervisor of officials says no suspension is warranted and the "common sense review" rule is applied to suspend them.