(06-20-2012 02:41 PM)axeme Wrote: [ -> ]http://m.heraldnet.com/heraldnet/pm_1106...Df&rwthr=0
Toledo one of ten teams banned from post-season play. The MAC has not announced how it will deal with the ban.
J MAC Guy said a few months ago on twitter that Toledo would also be banned from the MAC Tournament.
(06-20-2012 02:45 PM)Sam Minuteman Wrote: [ -> ] (06-20-2012 02:41 PM)axeme Wrote: [ -> ]http://m.heraldnet.com/heraldnet/pm_1106...Df&rwthr=0
Toledo one of ten teams banned from post-season play. The MAC has not announced how it will deal with the ban.
Beat me to the punch: http://espn.go.com/mens-college-basketba...season-apr
Should be interesting to see what the conferences do with the tournaments. What a bummer for the kids especially incoming freshmen who had nothing to do with the poor grades.
No one with the program currently, coach or player, were involved when this happened.
(06-20-2012 03:19 PM)H2Oville Rocket Wrote: [ -> ] (06-20-2012 02:45 PM)Sam Minuteman Wrote: [ -> ] (06-20-2012 02:41 PM)axeme Wrote: [ -> ]http://m.heraldnet.com/heraldnet/pm_1106...Df&rwthr=0
Toledo one of ten teams banned from post-season play. The MAC has not announced how it will deal with the ban.
Beat me to the punch: http://espn.go.com/mens-college-basketba...season-apr
Should be interesting to see what the conferences do with the tournaments. What a bummer for the kids especially incoming freshmen who had nothing to do with the poor grades.
No one with the program currently, coach or player, were involved when this happened.
And?
FBS programs that have an APR under 930 that should be receiving a warning letter this year.
Buffalo, oSu, Houston, Tulsa, NM St, UTEP & Louisville
Next year if their 4 year APR is below 930 they would NOT be able to play in a bowl game.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Academic_Pr...#Sanctions
(06-20-2012 03:38 PM)7 Wrote: [ -> ] (06-20-2012 03:19 PM)H2Oville Rocket Wrote: [ -> ] (06-20-2012 02:45 PM)Sam Minuteman Wrote: [ -> ] (06-20-2012 02:41 PM)axeme Wrote: [ -> ]http://m.heraldnet.com/heraldnet/pm_1106...Df&rwthr=0
Toledo one of ten teams banned from post-season play. The MAC has not announced how it will deal with the ban.
Beat me to the punch: http://espn.go.com/mens-college-basketba...season-apr
Should be interesting to see what the conferences do with the tournaments. What a bummer for the kids especially incoming freshmen who had nothing to do with the poor grades.
No one with the program currently, coach or player, were involved when this happened.
And?
And it was a response to the quoted post about it being a bummer for incoming freshman that had nothing to do with it. Essentially H20 was saying that it's a bummer for the whole program since no one in the program now had anything to do with it.
Of course we've all known about this postseason ban for a few months. Curtis Dennis recently transfered out and was declared eligible right away since Toledo has a postseason ban for this year. Dennis has just one year of eligibility left for this coming season, and he wanted a shot to make it to the NCAA tournament.
Implying that it's an injustice for Toledo to be banned due to the fact that the players and coaching staff responsible are all gone....is simply ridiculous.
(06-20-2012 04:54 PM)EA3 Wrote: [ -> ]Implying that it's an injustice for Toledo to be banned due to the fact that the players and coaching staff responsible are all gone....is simply ridiculous.
I don't know about anybody else, but I did not imply that.......yet. Though it is an injustice to those in the program that are not responsible. A part of the low APR was not grades, but people leaving the program in the middle of the semester and therefore not completing their classes and not being in good standing at the end of that semester.
In reality this is no different than a school that gets caught with NCAA violations. It is an injustice in a way if you penalize people that did not cause the violations or APR problem. What should happen is that those that caused the violations or APR problem be penalized. Example would be suspending a coach from coaching in the NCAA again for a number of years. Of course that doesn't always mean much. In Gene Cross' case he has not coached in the NCAA since he was fired at Toledo.
You really get to a position where you have to just penalize the school, which is unfortunate for those affected by the penalty that were not involved.
The worst thing about the APR calculations that the NCAA use is that it will hardly ever affect the student-athletes that actually cause the low APR score. This is due to the time period used for calculating the scores.
I have never been in favor of the APR, ever since the NCAA started using it. I've always favored the way they calculate graduation rates instead. If a student-athlete leaves early for the NFL/NBA draft they do not count against the graduation rate, but otherwise if you don't graduate you negatively affect the score......even if you got good enough grades in ballroom dancing and other classes to stay eligible and help your team's APR while never having an intention on taking a full slate of real classes and getting a degree that will help your future. But that's another story.
Thanks for the old, bad news
(06-20-2012 05:22 PM)BrianNowicki Wrote: [ -> ] (06-20-2012 04:54 PM)EA3 Wrote: [ -> ]Implying that it's an injustice for Toledo to be banned due to the fact that the players and coaching staff responsible are all gone....is simply ridiculous.
I don't know about anybody else, but I did not imply that.......yet. Though it is an injustice to those in the program that are not responsible. A part of the low APR was not grades, but people leaving the program in the middle of the semester and therefore not completing their classes and not being in good standing at the end of that semester.
In reality this is no different than a school that gets caught with NCAA violations. It is an injustice in a way if you penalize people that did not cause the violations or APR problem. What should happen is that those that caused the violations or APR problem be penalized. Example would be suspending a coach from coaching in the NCAA again for a number of years. Of course that doesn't always mean much. In Gene Cross' case he has not coached in the NCAA since he was fired at Toledo.
You really get to a position where you have to just penalize the school, which is unfortunate for those affected by the penalty that were not involved.
The worst thing about the APR calculations that the NCAA use is that it will hardly ever affect the student-athletes that actually cause the low APR score. This is due to the time period used for calculating the scores.
I have never been in favor of the APR, ever since the NCAA started using it. I've always favored the way they calculate graduation rates instead. If a student-athlete leaves early for the NFL/NBA draft they do not count against the graduation rate, but otherwise if you don't graduate you negatively affect the score......even if you got good enough grades in ballroom dancing and other classes to stay eligible and help your team's APR while never having an intention on taking a full slate of real classes and getting a degree that will help your future. But that's another story.
I didn't reply to your post, nor did I address you specifically. I simply made a statement.
There are no victims at Toledo right now. Every single one of those players and coaches knew what they were signing up for and the potential consequences they could face due to the mess created by those before them. If they didn't, shame on them for not educating themselves. It sucks and it's not fair...but the ruling wasn't a surprise that popped up overnight.
10 teams in D I are banned from the postseason next year. That represents less than 3% of teams. While I am sympathetic to the current coaching staff and players, shame on the Toledo admin for letting this happen. This wasn't a result of one coach or a few bad students that bolted mid semester. There was a major accountability problem for multiple years in the Toledo basketball program....and now the basketball program has to pay the price.
College bball as a whole already punishes negligent coaches and admin. They find it extremely tough to stay employed in college bball or athletics after being associated with a situation like this. As for the players, they are punished too. NCAA transfer rules apply, and dropout student athletes are not in high demand, and their free education is likely tossed out the door. Those people are punished with real life consequences. They lose their job and/or opportunities.
Besides a one year postseason ban for the university that oversaw this mess, how else can the NCAA hold people and universities accountable?
Change the calculations and requirements because less than 3% of teams are ineligible?
Universities have control over the coaches they hire, the players they sign on schollys, how much they emphasize grades and attending classes, and the support staff that helps student athletes complete coursework. The message the NCAA wants to send with the APR rule is that those 4 things better be taken seriously.
No one is suggesting Toledo should not be punished. But to say an incoming freshman should have known what he was getting into is nonsense, pure and simple. There is no way for a kid to know in advance that an APR problem would be coming in a year, and that's what you're suggesting here. As an fyi ONLY, the university appealed (and lost), asking the NCAA to use this past year's APR score and grades as part of the average, in which case they would have passed.
A whole lot of CRAP went on in the Toledo program for several years before the ship got righted, and two coaches and an AD get the blame for that, along with a bunch of stupid kids (this all began with the point shaving deal, still unresolved). The AD fired the coach...players left in bad standing...new coach, more turnover of players...new guy couldn't win and got himself in some issues and got fired...more player turnover...new coach, more turnover. This coach is in his 2nd year and has already righted the ship. The post season ban is appropriate, but it's over.
(06-20-2012 09:34 PM)Karl Wrote: [ -> ]No one is suggesting Toledo should not be punished. But to say an incoming freshman should have known what he was getting into is nonsense, pure and simple. There is no way for a kid to know in advance that an APR problem would be coming in a year, and that's what you're suggesting here. As an fyi ONLY, the university appealed (and lost), asking the NCAA to use this past year's APR score and grades as part of the average, in which case they would have passed.
A whole lot of CRAP went on in the Toledo program for several years before the ship got righted, and two coaches and an AD get the blame for that, along with a bunch of stupid kids (this all began with the point shaving deal, still unresolved). The AD fired the coach...players left in bad standing...new coach, more turnover of players...new guy couldn't win and got himself in some issues and got fired...more player turnover...new coach, more turnover. This coach is in his 2nd year and has already righted the ship. The post season ban is appropriate, but it's over.
I like to focus on the goods news:
Quote:TOLEDO, OH - The Rocket men's basketball program posted a 3.011 cumulative grade-point average in the spring semester to continue the dramatic turnaround that has occurred since Head Coach Tod Kowalczyk was hired in the spring of 2010. The men's hoops team was one of 14 sport programs at the University of Toledo to post team GPAs of 3.0 or above.
Eight of 11 Rockets posted a 3.0 GPA or higher led by junior Curtis Dennis and freshman Julius Brown, who each earned a spot on the University Dean's List (3.5 GPA or higher). Also posting a 3.0 mark or better were sophomore James Ewing, sophomore Reese Holliday, freshman AJ Mathew, freshman Zach Riddle, sophomore Matt Smith and sophomore Richard Wonnell.
The men's basketball program's performance was a part of the athletic department's successful semester which saw UT student-athletes earn a collective grade-point average of 3.266, the highest mark in school history. It is the fourth time in the last five semesters that UT student-athletes have broken the GPA record.
Individually, 26 student-athletes earned perfect 4.0 GPAs in the fall, including Harkins, while 133 individuals (nearly 41 percent) earned a spot on the Dean's List. Additionally, a record 70.9 percent of UT student-athletes achieved a 3.0 grade point average or better for the 2011 fall semester, the 17th consecutive semester in which at least half of Rocket student-athletes earned a 3.0+ GPA.
http://www.utrockets.com/ViewArticle.dbm...=205435196
(06-20-2012 03:38 PM)7 Wrote: [ -> ] (06-20-2012 03:19 PM)H2Oville Rocket Wrote: [ -> ] (06-20-2012 02:45 PM)Sam Minuteman Wrote: [ -> ] (06-20-2012 02:41 PM)axeme Wrote: [ -> ]http://m.heraldnet.com/heraldnet/pm_1106...Df&rwthr=0
Toledo one of ten teams banned from post-season play. The MAC has not announced how it will deal with the ban.
Beat me to the punch: http://espn.go.com/mens-college-basketba...season-apr
Should be interesting to see what the conferences do with the tournaments. What a bummer for the kids especially incoming freshmen who had nothing to do with the poor grades.
No one with the program currently, coach or player, were involved when this happened.
And?
Sorry, I forget how delayed you are. The writer suggests that it is somehow worse for the incoming freshmen who had nothing to do with the poor grades. I respond that no one had anything to do with the poor grades. In other words, there is no reason that incoming freshmen should feel worse about the situation than anyone else. Is any of this sinking in? I thought not. Oh, well....
By the way, I just noticed that Brian already attempted to explain it to you and his take is dead on. Moreover, he was nicer than I was!
Its not like Toledo is poised to make the NCAA's anyway.
When is the last time the Rockets made it? 1983?
I wonder how all the transfers affect these numbers....does a program have an advantage of accepting players to finish their careers with the school vs. true freshman who flunk out after two seasons?
That may explain why Ohio has become so receptive to transfers lately.
of course Toledo was among the top men' bball APR's in the country for the couple years preceding Joplin's last season and the 2 Cross years (hisssss). were there accountability issues, or is that just a convenient cliche? having a clever gambler snake his way into the heads of a few players doesn't mean the admin or coaches managed the program without a sense of accountability. most of those same kids graduated and handled themselves w decency off the court in the eyes of those of us close to the program. it wasn't like things were out of control. meanwhile, the APR was really the result of Cross madly shuffling players in and out (of the starting lineup, roster, recruiting classes, etc...) in the same way he shuffled women in and out of his bed. dude was just a philanderer in every sense of the word.
the current staff and roster has sacrificed a lot to restore the reputation of the program, make grades, improve the quality of play and manage to field a team with the toughest scholarship reductions the ncaa could impose short of the death penalty. apr scores (which are a rather dubious indication of academic rigor) have been excellent for the past 2 seasons. so, maybe, everyone should know that this was a possibility, that the ncaa was gonna cut 3 scholarships each yr, that the top recruit would have to quit bball w a heart condition... but from the Toledo fan point of view this is like a venerial disease that flares up every time you almost forgot you had it (insert your gene cross joke here)
(06-20-2012 09:34 PM)Karl Wrote: [ -> ]No one is suggesting Toledo should not be punished.
Actually to EA's dismay the MAC commissioner is suggesting just that. This taken from an article on SI.com:
"I am extremely disappointed with the NCAA's denial of the University of Toledo's appeal of the men's basketball post-season ban for the 2012-13 season," Steinbrecher said in a statement. "The Mid-American Conference and member institutions want to be held to the highest academic standards and is fully supportive of tying academic performance to athletic participation, however, Toledo is not an institution that should be punished for doing the right thing.
"The hiring of a coach committed to academics and the subsequent change in culture brought by that staff to the men's basketball program at Toledo is highly commendable and should have been a strong mitigating factor in considering whether Toledo is deserving of a post-season ban penalty. Toledo, unfortunately, is an institution that is in the wrong place at the wrong time. The timing of the NCAA to move on these penalties is unprecedented, combined with the mitigation that Toledo presented, it's an extremely disappointing decision."
(06-21-2012 06:30 AM)Louis Kitton Wrote: [ -> ]Its not like Toledo is poised to make the NCAA's anyway.
LK, you're better than that. Toledo played in the CIT this past season and would not be eligible for the CIT, CBI, NIT, nor NCAA tourneys with this post-season ban.
I also think that everyone knows that Toledo improved last year and only finished a game or two out of 1st in the West. I remember Toledo playing in the MAC Tourney title game about 10 years ago or so when they were not very good but went on a run in the tourney. Anything can happen if you're in the tournament.
(06-21-2012 07:52 AM)BrianNowicki Wrote: [ -> ] (06-20-2012 09:34 PM)Karl Wrote: [ -> ]No one is suggesting Toledo should not be punished.
Actually to EA's dismay the MAC commissioner is suggesting just that. This taken from an article on SI.com:
"I am extremely disappointed with the NCAA's denial of the University of Toledo's appeal of the men's basketball post-season ban for the 2012-13 season," Steinbrecher said in a statement. "The Mid-American Conference and member institutions want to be held to the highest academic standards and is fully supportive of tying academic performance to athletic participation, however, Toledo is not an institution that should be punished for doing the right thing.
"The hiring of a coach committed to academics and the subsequent change in culture brought by that staff to the men's basketball program at Toledo is highly commendable and should have been a strong mitigating factor in considering whether Toledo is deserving of a post-season ban penalty. Toledo, unfortunately, is an institution that is in the wrong place at the wrong time. The timing of the NCAA to move on these penalties is unprecedented, combined with the mitigation that Toledo presented, it's an extremely disappointing decision."
Remember that EA3 is the guy who said calling it an injustice is ridiculous and followed that with another post calling it unfair.
(06-21-2012 07:55 AM)BrianNowicki Wrote: [ -> ] (06-21-2012 06:30 AM)Louis Kitton Wrote: [ -> ]Its not like Toledo is poised to make the NCAA's anyway.
LK, you're better than that. Toledo played in the CIT this past season and would not be eligible for the CIT, CBI, NIT, nor NCAA tourneys with this post-season ban.
I also think that everyone knows that Toledo improved last year and only finished a game or two out of 1st in the West. I remember Toledo playing in the MAC Tourney title game about 10 years ago or so when they were not very good but went on a run in the tourney. Anything can happen if you're in the tournament.
Didn't we beat an NCAA Sweet Sixteen team last year? Which team was that? Hmmmm.....