All this talk about who should be the 9th member makes me realize how far away we are from what I now consider to be the 'ideal' Big East conference - and yes, I know it will never happen but it, at the moment, is what I consider to be the 'ideal' we should at least strive for even if we never attain:
PSU, ND, Maryland, SU, BC, UConn, Pitt, WVU, Louisville, Cincinnati, Army, and Navy with the latter two schools in for football and lacrosse only.
Now to have any hope of getting there, one of things that must happen is Louisville and Cincinnati need to improve their academic standing to at least upper level Tier 3 like WVU. Both WVU and VT raised their academic profiles while being in the Big East so I sincerely hope the two new commuter schools do so as well, while recognizing that because they are commuter schools they will unlikely get to Tier 2 level.
Cheers,
Neil
Ain't ever gonna happen.
What about South Florida? I thought they are sooooooooooooooo imprortant for recruiting in the state of Florida.
omnicarrier Wrote:All this talk about who should be the 9th member makes me realize how far away we are from what I now consider to be the 'ideal' Big East conference - and yes, I know it will never happen but it, at the moment, is what I consider to be the 'ideal' we should at least strive for even if we never attain:
PSU, ND, Maryland, SU, BC, UConn, Pitt, WVU, Louisville, Cincinnati, Army, and Navy with the latter two schools in for football and lacrosse only.
Now to have any hope of getting there, one of things that must happen is Louisville and Cincinnati need to improve their academic standing to at least upper level Tier 3 like WVU. Both WVU and VT raised their academic profiles while being in the Big East so I sincerely hope the two new commuter schools do so as well, while recognizing that because they are commuter schools they will unlikely get to Tier 2 level.
Cheers,
Neil
:haha: :haha: :haha: :haha: :haha: :haha:
Pulling schools from 3 conferences and some independants; thank you for pointing out one of 1,263,459,539 things that need to happen. Let's get this log rolling!!
omnicarrier Wrote:All this talk about who should be the 9th member makes me realize how far away we are from what I now consider to be the 'ideal' Big East conference - and yes, I know it will never happen but it, at the moment, is what I consider to be the 'ideal' we should at least strive for even if we never attain:
PSU, ND, Maryland, SU, BC, UConn, Pitt, WVU, Louisville, Cincinnati, Army, and Navy with the latter two schools in for football and lacrosse only.
Now to have any hope of getting there, one of things that must happen is Louisville and Cincinnati need to improve their academic standing to at least upper level Tier 3 like WVU. Both WVU and VT raised their academic profiles while being in the Big East so I sincerely hope the two new commuter schools do so as well, while recognizing that because they are commuter schools they will unlikely get to Tier 2 level.
Cheers,
Neil
People are living in a dream world if they actually believe academics play a huge part in a school getting invited into a conference. Boston College PUSHED for UC to get in. UC didn't beg them to get in Boston College (along with West Virginia) pushed for UC to get in. If academics were an issue and UC's (along with Louisville) academics were as bad and people claim then those schools along with Syracuse and the b-ball schools would have never have voted us in. UC has one of the best academic and research facilities in the country. While academics wasn't the main reason for getting UC in it was actually the final straw. The Big East presidents were VERY impressed with UC's academics and research facilities. If Notre Dame didn't have any problems with UC's academic profile after Bob Goin faxed them information on it why do people think that we have this horrible academic profile?
About the conferences, people Maryland will NEVER leave the ACC for the Big East for the same reason Arkansas will never leave the SEC for the Big 12. While the Big 12 is a better geographical fit for Arkansas the SEC is a better athletic and financial fit for Arkansas. It's where all their rivalries are. Same goes for Maryland in the ACC and Penn State in the Big Ten. The main core of the Big East when it hopefully splits will be West Virginia, Pittsburgh, UConn, Louisville, Syracuse, Cincinnati, Rutgers and South Florida. Now people say the Big East will only expand to 9, which I kind of understand since the TV deal will possibly dictate that. So if that's the case Memphis is a must. They bring strong basketball, improving football and a built in rivalry which means must see TV in basketball and football when Memphis plays UC and Louisville. Personally I would like to see East Carolina expand to either 10 or 12. 12 if they're considering a championship game, but 10 if they don't want a championship game. Add Memphis and East Carolina. ECU gets you into ACC territory. There you have 10 strong schools and you're in perfect shape to add two schools quickly if you want a championship game or have slot opens if, by some god-blessed miracle, Penn State and/or Notre Dame joins (even if it's a partial membership for Notre Dame) allowing you to get to 12 teams.
Cat's_Claw Wrote:People are living in a dream world if they actually believe academics play a huge part in a school getting invited into a conference. Boston College PUSHED for UC to get in. UC didn't beg them to get in Boston College (along with West Virginia) pushed for UC to get in. If academics were an issue and UC's (along with Louisville) academics were as bad and people claim then those schools along with Syracuse and the b-ball schools would have never have voted us in. UC has one of the best academic and research facilities in the country. While academics wasn't the main reason for getting UC in it was actually the final straw. The Big East presidents were VERY impressed with UC's academics and research facilities. If Notre Dame didn't have any problems with UC's academic profile after Bob Goin faxed them information on it why do people think that we have this horrible academic profile?
CC...you just don't get it. Cincy's an urban public school...they can't possibly be any good! :D
...and no, I really don't believe that.
Cat's_Claw Wrote:About the conferences, people Maryland will NEVER leave the ACC for the Big East for the same reason Arkansas will never leave the SEC for the Big 12. While the Big 12 is a better geographical fit for Arkansas the SEC is a better athletic and financial fit for Arkansas. It's where all their rivalries are. Same goes for Maryland in the ACC and Penn State in the Big Ten. The main core of the Big East when it hopefully splits will be West Virginia, Pittsburgh, UConn, Louisville, Syracuse, Cincinnati, Rutgers and South Florida. Now people say the Big East will only expand to 9, which I kind of understand since the TV deal will possibly dictate that. So if that's the case Memphis is a must. They bring strong basketball, improving football and a built in rivalry which means must see TV in basketball and football when Memphis plays UC and Louisville. Personally I would like to see East Carolina expand to either 10 or 12. 12 if they're considering a championship game, but 10 if they don't want a championship game. Add Memphis and East Carolina. ECU gets you into ACC territory. There you have 10 strong schools and you're in perfect shape to add two schools quickly if you want a championship game or have slot opens if, by some god-blessed miracle, Penn State and/or Notre Dame joins (even if it's a partial membership for Notre Dame) allowing you to get to 12 teams.
Claw, point out to me why the Big East would go to 10. I'm interested to hear your rationale.
[While the Big 12 is a better geographical fit for Arkansas the SEC is a better athletic and financial fit for Arkansas. It's where all their rivalries are. Same goes for Maryland in the ACC and Penn State in the Big Ten. QUOTE]
--I have to take issue with the comments about Penn St....The only natural rival Penn St has in the Big 10 is Ohio St...the Penn-Michigan st "rivlary game" at the end of the season is a joke...Penn St's real rivals are Pitt, West Virginia and Syracuse
--My ideal Big East conference:
1. Notre Dame
2. Penn st
3. Pitt
4. West Virgina
5. Syracuse
6. Boston College
7. Uconn
8. Louisville
9. Virginia Tech
10. UC
11. Rutgers
12. Temple
-- Its a shame that Syracuse, Boston College and Pitt were so opposed to this idea 20 some years ago and so loyal to the bball onlys.... we might not be in the trouble we are now..
--I think its time we learn from history....see what staying with the Catholic schools prevented us from forming....lets not make the same mistake twice
Jackson
Jackson1011 Wrote:[While the Big 12 is a better geographical fit for Arkansas the SEC is a better athletic and financial fit for Arkansas. It's where all their rivalries are. Same goes for Maryland in the ACC and Penn State in the Big Ten. QUOTE]
--I have to take issue with the comments about Penn St....The only natural rival Penn St has in the Big 10 is Ohio St...the Penn-Michigan st "rivlary game" at the end of the season is a joke...Penn St's real rivals are Pitt, West Virginia and Syracuse
--My ideal Big East conference:
1. Notre Dame
2. Penn st
3. Pitt
4. West Virgina
5. Syracuse
6. Boston College
7. Uconn
8. Louisville
9. Virginia Tech
10. UC
11. Rutgers
12. Temple
-- Its a shame that Syracuse, Boston College and Pitt were so opposed to this idea 20 some years ago and so loyal to the bball onlys.... we might not be in the trouble we are now..
--I think its time we learn from history....see what staying with the Catholic schools prevented us from forming....lets not make the same mistake twice
Jackson
The best bet for the Big East long term was to get the best Non BcS conference schools as possible. In all likelihood that would have meant a merger with the C-USA.
Most realistic Big East in the future
North
UConn
Pittsburgh
Syracuse
West Virginia
Marshall
Rutgers
South
Louisville
Cincinnati
Memphis
East Carolina
South Florida
Southern Miss
For Basketball in the North you would have Pittsburgh, Syracuse and UConn. In the South you would have Louisville, Memphis and Cincinnati. That is 6 year to year NCAA Tournament teams.
In Football you bring in 3 of the strongest Non BCS Football schools in the country in Memphis, Marshall and Southern Miss. As far as TV markets you will have Cincinnati, Louisville, Memphis, Tampa/Saint Pete, Pittsburgh, Hartford and NYC.
[IFor Basketball in the North you would have Pittsburgh, Syracuse and UConn. In the South you would have Louisville, Memphis and Cincinnati. That is 6 year to year NCAA Tournament teams.
In Football you bring in 3 of the strongest Non BCS Football schools in the country in Memphis, Marshall and Southern Miss. As far as TV markets you will have Cincinnati, Louisville, Memphis, Tampa/Saint Pete, Pittsburgh, Hartford and NYC. ]
--You are correct about the future of the BE will be adding the best non-bcs school....however...there is no way Southern Miss or probably Marshall will ever be invited
--A league that is composed of the current BE football schools and Memphis would have most of the advantages you described above and three less mouths to feed
Jackson
[QUOTE]People are living in a dream world if they actually believe academics play a huge part in a school getting invited into a conference. Boston College PUSHED for UC to get in. UC didn't beg them to get in Boston College (along with West Virginia) pushed for UC to get in. [QUOTE]
I'm going to preference this post first by stating anyone who bothers to do any research on the topic knows that UC's academics exceed Louisville's and are on a par with what WVU's and VT's academics were when they first entered the Big East football conference. However, fact and perception are not the same thing.
Cat's Claw, first, the only reason why certain teams needed to 'push' for Cincinnati was because there obviously was opposition to them. Much moreso than there was for Louisville for reasons that I will explain later.
[QUOTE]If academics were an issue and UC's (along with Louisville) academics were as bad and people claim then those schools along with Syracuse and the b-ball schools would have never have voted us in.[QUOTE]
Yes, the Big East is an athletic association so athletic accomplishment is the first criteria, but geography and academics are also part of the equation as well. And to think otherwise will not help UC advance, IMHO. Believe me, if Navy and Army had football records anywhere within the vicinity of Louisville and Cincinnati over the past decade, they would have been chosen instead because of academics and location. And also keep in mind, that it was Louisville's athletic accomplishments (particularly in football) that made getting the Cards into the league the number one priority for the football schools. Cincinnati only became the second football team chosen because it was decided they were already Louisville's main rival.
This explains why even though Louisville's academics are rated lower than Cincinnati, they didn't encounter the questioning and scrutiny UC went through. Why? Because the Catholic basketball schools knew that they couldn't stop the Cards getting in, they made too much sense if the BE football conference was going to have any chance to keep the BCS bid. However, Cincinnati's inclusion didn't mean that. The main thing going for UC was that it was perceived to be Louisville's main rival. That wasn't reason enough for the Catholic schools to invite the Bearcats so they were bound and determined to make an issue of UC's academics. Which is most likely the reason why Goin had to do what he did in selling UC as having better academics than the perception.
Still, WVU, VT, and Miami all increased their academic profiles while being part of the Big East in less than a decade as did SU in the decade prior. And UC and UL will as well, while acknowledging they can only go so high as a result of being commuter schools.
[QUOTE]About the conferences, people Maryland will NEVER leave the ACC for the Big East for the same reason Arkansas will never leave the SEC for the Big 12. While the Big 12 is a better geographical fit for Arkansas the SEC is a better athletic and financial fit for Arkansas. It's where all their rivalries are. Same goes for Maryland in the ACC and Penn State in the Big Ten.[QUOTE]
While Maryland leaving the ACC and Penn State leaving the Big 10 are extremely unlikely, it isn't necessarily because those leagues are where their rivalries are. It's because those leagues are where the $$$ is and to a lesser extent, those leagues are the higher profile academic leagues as well.
Now it is true that Maryland's basketball rivalries are with the ACC, but in terms of football Virginia is the only true rival for the Terps in the ACC and the Cavaliers see both UNC and VT as bigger rivals than Maryland. The other ACC teams the Terps have to play because they are conference games, but the fans don't get too excited about them. Now PSU (37 times played), WVU (42 times played), and even SU (34 times played) are more natural football rivals for Maryland than any ACC team other than Virginia and in SU, the Terps have a potential basketball rivalry that could exceed their current rivalry with Duke and possibly challenge the UNC-Duke rivalry - think SU-Georgetown in the 80s with more balance as to who would win the 'big' games.
PSU doesn't have a single rivalry with any Big 10 school. Their true rival is Pitt with SU, Maryland and WVU also in the mix. However, I will grant that PSU, as a large land-grant institution is more like a Big 10 school than any other and that being in the Big 10 has raised their academic profile and being part of the CIC has meant research $$$ for the college.
So, if there were any hope, however slim, of getting either PSU or Maryland or both to leave their current situations, the $$$ needs to be there, the academics need to be there, and the right sales pitch needs to be made.
Personally, I think any league that has ND, PSU, Maryland, SU, BC, UConn, Pitt, WVU, Louisville, and Cincinnati with Army and Navy for football and lacrosse would make more athletic $$$ than any current conference configuration. Such a league would dominate the #'s 1, 4, 6, 8, 22, 23, 27, 32, 44, and 50 markets and with ND help claim pieces of the #3 and #25 markets. That's 12 out of 50, something no other league would have.
Assuming the domed Jets stadium gets built, the league would have three excellent venues in which to host a Conference Championship game with that stadium, M&T Bank Stadium, and the Linc. With the likes of ND, PSU, Maryland, WVU, et. al, those games would not only sell out in those locations but be national TV draws as well.
The Thanksgiving rivalry weekend preceding the championship game could be something special with let's say, ND vs. BC, Army vs. Navy, PSU vs. Maryland, Pitt vs. WVU, Louisville vs. Cincinnati, and SU vs. UConn. I believe the Army - Navy game currently makes as much money as the new ACC Conference Championship game in terms of TV broadcasting and probably will exceed it in terms of actual paid attendance.
As for basketball, a 10-team league of UConn, SU, Maryland, Pitt, ND, Louisville, Cincinnati, and BC, with only WVU and PSU serving as 'the easy wins' playing round-robin games would be the best league ever.
So if the $$$ could be there and the rivalries could be there and the geography makes sense - what do you think the missing pieces might be? Well, in terms of PSU, it is academic research $$$ and academic affiliation. In terms of ND and BC it is academic affiliation and in ND's case the tradition of being independent in football. In the case of Army and Navy it is a commitment from the federal government to invest more in those programs and possibly allow athlete/recruits to earn their education without necessarily having to serve. In terms of Maryland it will probably take a complete paradigm shift or a major power-struggle between the Carolina schools and the Virginia or Florida schools that results in another snub of the Terps.
Unfortunately, Mikey T. is not the salesman who could pull this all off. But the first step I feel that must be taken is that the Big East needs to relocate its office to NYC. We have to be seen as a player if we truly want to become a player. After that all SU, UConn, Pitt, WVU, Louisville, and Cincinnati can do is raise their football profiles and academic profiles and hope their is some spark of interest that is lit in the northeast fanbase that will make tv contract negotiations much better in 2010 than they will be now.
Rather than talk about adding lesser schools like Marshall, Temple, and ECU which only results in fans of SU, WVU, UConn, and Pitt wanting to get out of this conference and join a 'real' one - the purpose behind my post was to 'think big'. The Marshalls, et. all will always be there if we must expand, but for now let's focus on what is now the Big East football 'core' and making that so attractive that enticing the NDs, PSUs, and Marylands of the athletic world are not so far-fetched.
Cheers,
Neil
My my, no USF in the ideal Big East lineups?
Haha, just kidding. No way is our prescence here ideal. Technically, even Miami wouldn't be ideal. Just remember, its the big east, not big northeast. You're allowed to take acc teams if they fit (few do).
Overall I think the initial post would be ideal.
To give readers an idea of how likely it is, it would also be ideal if cuba raised money for USF to become the best football team in america, and our own florida bush decided to cut funding to EVERY other state school, and tax miami :).
I bet our basketball team would get better then
Actually, you'd need alot more than just a few drinks to see anything in this thread happening, but hey, its the weekend
.
Omnicarrier....is there any chance in the world that what you described could come about?? I hope so!
--I live in WV not to far from the Maryland boarder....and I must say that it is going to take a lot of $$$ to get them to even consider leaving the ACC...The Terps football program is rolling now and they were very happy with ACC expansion....
--I have always like the idea of adding Army and Navy....they were Eastern indpendents too....but I am not sure adding them makes sense without the addition of Penn St or Notre Dame....the academies may water down football a little to much
--I have hard rumors that Navy was offered BE football membership this fall and turned it down....so I don't know if the academies would be interested in such an arrangment
-- It seems to me the first thing that has to happen is we have to ditch the bball onlys...no one is even going to look at joining the BE as long as there a part of it....if that means forming a brand new league then so be it....why we ever agreed to stay 5 yrs I'll never know....
--I agree with the idea of moving the league offices to NYC....but Dave Gavitt, Mikey T and most of the bball onlys will never let that happen....from what I hear Gavitt still has some influence in what goes on at the BE office
Jackson
Yep, two chances. Slim and none. But for now all we can really do to even give slim a chance is:
1) Move the Big East headquarters to NYC. It's ridiculous that they are currently located in Providence.
2) Improve our football programs as best we can
3) Improve our institutional academic profiles as best we can
Cheers,
Neil
Jackson1011 Wrote:Omnicarrier....is there any chance in the world that what you described could come about?? I hope so!
--I live in WV not to far from the Maryland boarder....and I must say that it is going to take a lot of $$$ to get them to even consider leaving the ACC...The Terps football program is rolling now and they were very happy with ACC expansion....
--I have always like the idea of adding Army and Navy....they were Eastern indpendents too....but I am not sure adding them makes sense without the addition of Penn St or Notre Dame....the academies may water down football a little to much
--I have hard rumors that Navy was offered BE football membership this fall and turned it down....so I don't know if the academies would be interested in such an arrangment
-- It seems to me the first thing that has to happen is we have to ditch the bball onlys...no one is even going to look at joining the BE as long as there a part of it....if that means forming a brand new league then so be it....why we ever agreed to stay 5 yrs I'll never know....
--I agree with the idea of moving the league offices to NYC....but Dave Gavitt, Mikey T and most of the bball onlys will never let that happen....from what I hear Gavitt still has some influence in what goes on at the BE office
Jackson
if, WVU continues to win , and wins big in the new BE, and ECU gets back on track and wins big, in the new CUSA. ECU and our great friend WVU will be in the SEC within 10 years, if the BE, dosn't expand. both schools, WVU and ECU, have great fan support, that shows up win or loose. WVU and ECU played in front of 75,000 in Charolette NC for a regular season game. the SEC quietly took note. ECU gave the Peach Bowl its first sell out ever. the SEC took note. this fall ECU will play NCSU at Charlotte NC they expect close to 80,000. my hunch is that the BE will wake up and see the value of ECU being added to the BE. if for some reason they don't, the SEC will make a package deal, bringing in WVU and ECU as a package deal. possible keystone to the deal, each school, must, play a game in Charlotte NC (a market the SEC covets) each year.
[QUOTE]if, WVU continues to win , and wins big in the new BE, and ECU gets back on track and wins big, in the new CUSA. ECU and our great friend WVU will be in the SEC within 10 years, if the BE, dosn't expand. both schools, WVU and ECU, have great fan support, that shows up win or loose. WVU and ECU played in front of 75,000 in Charolette NC for a regular season game. the SEC quietly took note. ECU gave the Peach Bowl its first sell out ever. the SEC took note. this fall ECU will play NCSU at Charlotte NC they expect close to 80,000. my hunch is that the BE will wake up and see the value of ECU being added to the BE. if for some reason they don't, the SEC will make a package deal, bringing in WVU and ECU as a package deal. possible keystone to the deal, each school, must, play a game in Charlotte NC (a market the SEC covets) each year. [QUOTE]
Yeah, the SEC covets the Charlotte market, which is why they want Clemson. They also covet Texas markets, which is why they want Texas. If WVU starts to dominate the NBE, I can definitely see WVU becoming even more attractive to the SEC. But at this point in time, I simply don't see ECU on radar screen of either the SEC or the NBE.
Hope you guys turn things around.
Cheers,
Neil
Omnicarrier...
--Do you think Memphis is the obvious choice to become the 9th football playing school when the split occurs??
--How successful do you think a league that included just the BE football schools and Memphis would be ?
Jackson
[quote="omnicarrier"] [QUOTE]if, WVU continues to win , and wins big in the new BE, and ECU gets back on track and wins big, in the new CUSA. ECU and our great friend WVU will be in the SEC within 10 years, if the BE, dosn't expand. both schools, WVU and ECU, have great fan support, that shows up win or loose. WVU and ECU played in front of 75,000 in Charolette NC for a regular season game. the SEC quietly took note. ECU gave the Peach Bowl its first sell out ever. the SEC took note. this fall ECU will play NCSU at Charlotte NC they expect close to 80,000. my hunch is that the BE will wake up and see the value of ECU being added to the BE. if for some reason they don't, the SEC will make a package deal, bringing in WVU and ECU as a package deal. possible keystone to the deal, each school, must, play a game in Charlotte NC (a market the SEC covets) each year. [QUOTE]
Yeah, the SEC covets the Charlotte market, which is why they want Clemson. They also covet Texas markets, which is why they want Texas. If WVU starts to dominate the NBE, I can definitely see WVU becoming even more attractive to the SEC. But at this point in time, I simply don't see ECU on radar screen of either the SEC or the NBE.
Hope you guys turn things around.
Cheers,
Neil [/quote]
Clemson, will never leave the ACC. however, WVU would jump to the SEC, in a instant.........ECU, has to win big in CUSA ,to go anywhere, if they don't....... there stuck in CUSA foever.....if, ECU can turn it around, and win......well, the BE will make the call......if the BE dosn't..........and, if ,WVU and ECU are big winners, in the BE, and CUSA.....the SEC will add these two schools, within 10 years..........but each school must play games in Charlotte NC, that will be the keystone to this deal......the package deal will be made...,if, the BE dosn't split and expand.........the SEC unlike the BE, looks at fan support....and how schools fans travel......both WVU and ECU have outstanding fan support and there fans travel and spend$$$
When you say both schools must play games in Charlotte, NC, do you mean when they play each other? Cause no way WVU plays home games in Charlotte, NC. It is West Virginia University. Sure many former WV residents and WVU grad live in NC, but for WVU to play a HOME game in Charlotte is ludacris.
Who's to say the SEC doesn't already have its fair share of the Charlotte TV market. After all, SEC games are televised nationally on CBS, and I think it's safe to assume Charlotte picks up those games as well...
The SEC doesn't gain anything extra with ECU that it doesn't already possess. If they wanted to make a big splash in NC, they could lure away one of either North Carolina or NC State, both of whom have much larger fanbases and deliver the entire state of NC in terms of TV appeal.