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A little early for this one but does anyone know if UMass will be playing a full conference schedule next season. If so will they count as conference games for standings.

(11-17-2011 09:17 AM)TUJim Wrote: [ -> ]A little early for this one but does anyone know if UMass will be playing a full conference schedule next season. If so will they count as conference games for standings.

I thought I read you will be playing a full conference schedule but will not be eligible for the MAC Championship or post season play next year..

Here it is: The Minutemen will be the 14th MAC school and play a full eight-game conference schedule in 2012. They won't be eligible for the conference title game or associated bowl games until 2013.

http://www.masslive.com/sports/index.ssf...mid-a.html

(11-17-2011 09:17 AM)TUJim Wrote: [ -> ]A little early for this one but does anyone know if UMass will be playing a full conference schedule next season. If so will they count as conference games for standings.

UMass will play a full conference schedule in 2012. Games will count toward the standings.

My guess is the initial role of UMass will be playing in the conference will be to help inflate the record of Buffalo and Kent State. This is not the same situation as Temple moving down from a BCS conference into the MAC.

As maligned as Temple is/was for its issues TU has a strong local talent pool to draw on that is plenty enough to be competitive in the MAC. UMass doesn't have that level of local talent to work with. In fact they have less in-state talent to work with than even Buffalo. Only 25 players on the UMass roster are from Massachusetts.

I still agree with the UMass add to get the MAC into the New England market but this is more about helping to maximize Temple and Buffalo than what UMass in itself can bring per se.

Edit--question answered.

Any idea how the divisions will look with UMass in the fold? Will BGSU move to the west?

(11-17-2011 11:52 AM)EagleSam Wrote: [ -> ]Any idea how the divisions will look with UMass in the fold? Will BGSU move to the west?

I cant imagine another scenario that even comes remotely close to making sense..

UMASS has done well recruiting in California and moving up to FBS status will only help that effort.

(11-17-2011 10:47 AM)Louis Kitton Wrote: [ -> ]As maligned as Temple is/was for its issues TU has a strong local talent pool to draw on that is plenty enough to be competitive in the MAC. UMass doesn't have that level of local talent to work with. In fact they have less in-state talent to work with than even Buffalo. Only 25 players on the UMass roster are from Massachusetts.

Not sure where you're getting that from. 38 players are from Massachusetts, which is down this year, and that doesn't include players from other parts of the country who come to Massachusetts prep schools. 60 players came from within a range smaller than the corners of Ohio. Connecticut, New Hampshire, Rhode Island, Vermont, eastern New York and northern New Jersey are all "local" to us. We just need to go back to raiding our QBs from California JUCOs and we'll be fine. I have a hundred times more confidence in our local players than I do in our coaches.

(11-17-2011 04:15 PM)LastMinuteman Wrote: [ -> ]

(11-17-2011 10:47 AM)Louis Kitton Wrote: [ -> ]As maligned as Temple is/was for its issues TU has a strong local talent pool to draw on that is plenty enough to be competitive in the MAC. UMass doesn't have that level of local talent to work with. In fact they have less in-state talent to work with than even Buffalo. Only 25 players on the UMass roster are from Massachusetts.

Not sure where you're getting that from. 38 players are from Massachusetts, which is down this year, and that doesn't include players from other parts of the country who come to Massachusetts prep schools. 60 players came from within a range smaller than the corners of Ohio. Connecticut, New Hampshire, Rhode Island, Vermont, eastern New York and northern New Jersey are all "local" to us. We just need to go back to raiding our QBs from California JUCOs and we'll be fine. I have a hundred times more confidence in our local players than I do in our coaches.

Okay.

I thought I counted less in-state players this summer. How many of those FCS in-state players are going to cut it at the MAC level? I would estimate 25-30. The higher a school goes up in competitive level the more in-state talent its going to need. Temple is 60+ instate every season a major advantage.

Buffalo has not had a great run of success in the MAC and they have 37 players at the MAC level. Syracuse has roughly 30 in-state in the Big East, Stony Brook 45 players, Albany closer to 60. As you move up in competition its hard to remaining mostly in-state for recruiting.

Boston College only has 21 guys from Massachusetts. They have an advantage as a national school obviously so taking guys right in the backyard isn't of the most important. Regardless there is not enough talent in Massachusetts to stack a team full of quality in-state MAC level players.

(11-17-2011 10:47 AM)Louis Kitton Wrote: [ -> ]As maligned as Temple is/was for its issues TU has a strong local talent pool to draw on that is plenty enough to be competitive in the MAC. UMass doesn't have that level of local talent to work with. In fact they have less in-state talent to work with than even Buffalo. Only 25 players on the UMass roster are from Massachusetts.

It's not something anyone can quantify and measure, so please stop attempting to. UMass as a brand, playing in an NFL stadium, could offset whatever local recruiting disadvantage there is and surpass some Ohio/Michigan (abundant local talent) MAC schools' recruiting clout. UB started with a subpar coaching staff recruiting mostly subpar players from every corner. Gill's classes started getting us somewhere, and though we are rebuilding, Quinn has at least brought in 2 of our best classes ever.

(11-17-2011 12:01 PM)Bull_In_Exile Wrote: [ -> ]

(11-17-2011 11:52 AM)EagleSam Wrote: [ -> ]Any idea how the divisions will look with UMass in the fold? Will BGSU move to the west?

I cant imagine another scenario that even comes remotely close to making sense..

I like the idea of Akron moving to the West division. Move the weakest MAC team to the West to balance out the divisions.

After that I like the idea of Toledo-BG-Kent-Akron all operating as a permanent crossover. Akron is placed in the West but has Toledo in divisional play and BG/Kent as crossovers. This keeps all the Northern Ohio schools playing football together every year.

Another option is some kind of zig-zag with rivalries protected.

NIU, BSU, WMU, CMU, EMU, OHIO, Miami
Temple, UMass, Buffalo, Akron, Kent, BGSU, Toledo

No perm cross-overs needed. Football travel would be longer for OHIO but that isn't of huge importance.

OR

Keep traditional East (Temple, UMass, Buffalo) and West (NIU, BSU, WMU) wings and then divide up the remaining schools by strength making sure there is not more than 3 Ohio schools in the same division.

OHIO/Toledo
Miami/CMU
Kent/BGSU
Akron/EMU

NIU, BSU, WMU, Toledo, CMU, Kent, Akron
Temple, UMass, Buffalo, OHIO, Miami, BGSU, EMU

The divisions can continue to be called East and West with good accuracy. Not many know where those Ohio schools are located and which is further east or west anyways.

(11-18-2011 01:24 AM)RecoveringHillbilly Wrote: [ -> ]

(11-17-2011 10:47 AM)Louis Kitton Wrote: [ -> ]As maligned as Temple is/was for its issues TU has a strong local talent pool to draw on that is plenty enough to be competitive in the MAC. UMass doesn't have that level of local talent to work with. In fact they have less in-state talent to work with than even Buffalo. Only 25 players on the UMass roster are from Massachusetts.

It's not something anyone can quantify and measure, so please stop attempting to. UMass as a brand, playing in an NFL stadium, could offset whatever local recruiting disadvantage there is and surpass some Ohio/Michigan (abundant local talent) MAC schools' recruiting clout. UB started with a subpar coaching staff recruiting mostly subpar players from every corner. Gill's classes started getting us somewhere, and though we are rebuilding, Quinn has at least brought in 2 of our best classes ever.

What your neglecting is that recruiting is a zero sum game.

There are only so many players to go around. There are is the in-state players that vary by state in the Northeast and from New England to Pittsburgh to Richmond a greater NE recruiting pool to tap into. The UMass fan is right about that point.

The point where the UMass fan is wrong is that Northeast pool is mined by the top BCS programs, the the Big East, than the MAC. UMass will have to dip into that same regional pool of players as Temple, Buffalo and Ohio yet with far smaller in-state base to build upon then what those schools have to work with in larger states. The situation is even worse for Delaware if they were let into the MAC with only 13 in-state players.

The stadium situation at UMass to play games 100 miles from campus sucks for recruiting.

(11-18-2011 12:56 AM)Louis Kitton Wrote: [ -> ]Boston College only has 21 guys from Massachusetts. They have an advantage as a national school obviously so taking guys right in the backyard isn't of the most important. Regardless there is not enough talent in Massachusetts to stack a team full of quality in-state MAC level players.

Boston College does that partly because they consider that part of their branding. They want to be Notre Dame. The last thing they want to be is State U. or Metro College. Obviously they're not going to turn down the top local talent, but when it comes to filling out the roster I suspect being a local player is actually a disadvantage. It's also ridiculously expensive to go there, so the walk-ons come from a certain social class rather than a geographic area. And of course they recruit disproportionately in Catholic high schools around the country rather than public schools.

UMass is the opposite. We want to be the destination school for top New England talent. We want to be the Michigan up here, not Notre Dame Jr. New England has never had a Big State U. that the region identifies with, and I think that's what makes the football culture up here strange. Historically it was Harvard and Yale where the best went, and Holy Cross had their run, and finally Boston College emerged as the lone survivor after the realignment of NCAA football divisions. All those private institutions only targeted specific sections of the talent pool, and considered it more prestigious to recruit nationally, while the local players considered it more prestigious to be recruited to play football anywhere but New England. You've kind of failed if you're not brilliant enough for the Ivies, not attracted to the Catholics and end up at one of the many, many FCS programs around here, so you leave if you want to play football. I think UMass can start to reverse that and bring them back. We'll see. If we have to stretch out, it won't hurt that we're a state flagship and 2nd ranked in the MAC academically, with one of the top sports management programs in the country. We've got other cards to play besides telling Mass kids that they won't have to memorize a new two-letter state abbreviation in their mailing address if they come here.

(11-18-2011 03:42 AM)LastMinuteman Wrote: [ -> ]

(11-18-2011 12:56 AM)Louis Kitton Wrote: [ -> ]Boston College only has 21 guys from Massachusetts. They have an advantage as a national school obviously so taking guys right in the backyard isn't of the most important. Regardless there is not enough talent in Massachusetts to stack a team full of quality in-state MAC level players.

Boston College does that partly because they consider that part of their branding. They want to be Notre Dame. The last thing they want to be is State U. or Metro College. Obviously they're not going to turn down the top local talent, but when it comes to filling out the roster I suspect being a local player is actually a disadvantage. It's also ridiculously expensive to go there, so the walk-ons come from a certain social class rather than a geographic area. And of course they recruit disproportionately in Catholic high schools around the country rather than public schools.

UMass is the opposite. We want to be the destination school for top New England talent. We want to be the Michigan up here, not Notre Dame Jr. New England has never had a Big State U. that the region identifies with, and I think that's what makes the football culture up here strange. Historically it was Harvard and Yale where the best went, and Holy Cross had their run, and finally Boston College emerged as the lone survivor after the realignment of NCAA football divisions. All those private institutions only targeted specific sections of the talent pool, and considered it more prestigious to recruit nationally, while the local players considered it more prestigious to be recruited to play football anywhere but New England. You've kind of failed if you're not brilliant enough for the Ivies, not attracted to the Catholics and end up at one of the many, many FCS programs around here, so you leave if you want to play football. I think UMass can start to reverse that and bring them back. We'll see. If we have to stretch out, it won't hurt that we're a state flagship and 2nd ranked in the MAC academically, with one of the top sports management programs in the country. We've got other cards to play besides telling Mass kids that they won't have to memorize a new two-letter state abbreviation in their mailing address if they come here.

I'm reading your post and thinking:

How many schools are out there in D-IAA (or even D-II - e,g, Wayne State in Detroit) which have everything that many big name schools have except for a I-A or BCS conference football team?

To which I-A school would you best compare UMass?

Is UMass a Big East school, minus Big East football??? (comparable to say UConn? or if UMass had UConn's athletics would they be saying "is UConn comparable to UMass'?).

I went to Wikipedia and it sounds like UMass also has the stature of an B1G or ACC school.

In D-II land, Grand Valley State U. (Western MI) is pretty much similar to WMU or CMU.

Wayne State U (Detroit) is probably another Temple, minus D-I sports (they have a med school, law school, pharmacy, engineering, etc). WSU is a 'commuter' school trying to be residential university. That, I believe, also sounds like Temple (BTW, WSU has played Temple in FB many, many years ago). Like UMass, Wayne State is a Carnegie Mellon doctoral research university.

Move WSU to a Detroit suburb and add D-I sports and a stronger undergraduate student body and it becomes a NEAR (I said near) B1G caliber university. (I believe WSU is very strong at the graduate level but more open admission at the undergraduate level).

I wonder if there are other I-AA universities, e.g., IL State, Delaware, etc. which are comparable to major universities which are I-A schools, maybe like Wyoming, Nevada, Colorado State, New Mexico, Iowa State, etc. except for lacking I-A football?

After reading this thread and a quick read of Wikipedia, I'm wondering what the hell is UMass still doing playing I-AA football?

This move to I-A should have been made years ago.

Or is it the case where MAC's expansion in the last dozen years (remember Marshall and UCF?) opened up a pathway to I-A for schools interested in moving up?

It does sound like UMass has the endowment to be successful in this endeavor.

It's a complicated convergence of unique regional history and bad luck. Again, the normal patterns in college sports don't hold in New England and New York. All our college sports heritage resides in the Ivies and Catholics and West Point, almost all of which took a bow and left the stage when the NCAA decided to become a major sports entertainment industry. We're still trying to catch up and fill the vacuum they left behind, but we never got the conference situation sorted. There's really no major Northeast conference left now.

(11-18-2011 01:31 PM)LastMinuteman Wrote: [ -> ]It's a complicated convergence of unique regional history and bad luck. Again, the normal patterns in college sports don't hold in New England and New York. All our college sports heritage resides in the Ivies and Catholics and West Point, almost all of which took a bow and left the stage when the NCAA decided to become a major sports entertainment industry. We're still trying to catch up and fill the vacuum they left behind, but we never got the conference situation sorted. There's really no major Northeast conference left now.

Glad to have you in the MAC.

(11-18-2011 01:31 PM)LastMinuteman Wrote: [ -> ]It's a complicated convergence of unique regional history and bad luck. Again, the normal patterns in college sports don't hold in New England and New York. All our college sports heritage resides in the Ivies and Catholics and West Point, almost all of which took a bow and left the stage when the NCAA decided to become a major sports entertainment industry. We're still trying to catch up and fill the vacuum they left behind, but we never got the conference situation sorted. There's really no major Northeast conference left now.

The ACC with Syracuse, Pittsburgh, Maryland and Boston College is moving in the direction of claiming the NE.

With projected changes to the BCS format that may force ND into the ACC along with Rutgers or UConn enhancing that footprint.

You could argue too that what is considered NE in culture now extends down to UVA or even Duke/UNC.

(11-18-2011 01:56 PM)emu steve Wrote: [ -> ]

(11-18-2011 01:31 PM)LastMinuteman Wrote: [ -> ]It's a complicated convergence of unique regional history and bad luck. Again, the normal patterns in college sports don't hold in New England and New York. All our college sports heritage resides in the Ivies and Catholics and West Point, almost all of which took a bow and left the stage when the NCAA decided to become a major sports entertainment industry. We're still trying to catch up and fill the vacuum they left behind, but we never got the conference situation sorted. There's really no major Northeast conference left now.

Glad to have you in the MAC.

Adds another school that Eastern Michigan can pick up the W at.

(11-17-2011 11:52 AM)EagleSam Wrote: [ -> ]Any idea how the divisions will look with UMass in the fold? Will BGSU move to the west?

You must mean BG to FCS.