CSNbbs

(07-01-2011 09:02 AM)Rebel Wrote: [ -> ]Anyone that thinks this has anything to do with segregation and Jim f'n Crow is an utter moron. Did I post ANYTHING about segregation and Jim Crow?

We harp for the golden ages, for return to morality, for the good ole' days, but I am hard pressed to find a moment in time when all was well.

While I can't state with certainty that our best days are ahead of us, because I am unsure of what the prior "best days" benchmark should be, I believe that the reports of the death of the United States of America are greatly exagerated.

As people have said here before, whatever it's going to take to fix this country isn't going to be initiated by our current leadership. Do you know why? Because our current leadership has been in similar positions before and didn't do anything then either. I think that if we really want to make waves we have to vote anyone with more than 8 years and senators more than 12 years out of office. They've grown way too comfortable getting paid for playing politics.

(07-01-2011 10:55 AM)wvucrazed Wrote: [ -> ]

(07-01-2011 10:51 AM)Bull_In_Exile Wrote: [ -> ]

(07-01-2011 08:50 AM)Lord Stanley Wrote: [ -> ]What is this bright shiny past you all long for? When was it better?

Was it the 50s, when Jim Crow was still around? Or the 60s, with the Vietnam War raging? Or perhaps the 70s, with stagflation? Or was it the 80s with Reagan? I guess that leaves the 90s, which did have Super Nintendo I guess, but I don't think the 90s are the summit of America.

That was no golden age; there are no golden ages. Everything’s a trial and different set of fears.

You know lumping in racism with wanting more traditional values is lazy..

I could just as esily say your rejection of traditional values must mean you *WANT* more than half of African American babies born to enter this world into a single parent household... Or you like having young black men in Urban Areas have coin toss odds between college or Prision..

Can we *PLEASE* have a discussion about values and the past without the race card being played? or do you really think he wants jim crow?

What "traditional values" of the 50s and 60s are you wanting more of that will help us back off the precipice of national destruction that folks seem to think we are teetering on?

I Have something of an interesting perspective on this. My family splits generations. My eldest Brother is technically a baby boomer (late 50's) and I am one of the last Gen X'rs (late 70's). I have cousins born back in the late 40's..

So through pictures, stories, and conversations I get a decent picture of how families and the neighborhoods changed.

1) Personal responsibility: When folks used to get their girlfriend pregnant they did the honorable thing. This is not just about Abortion but about men acting like boys and teens well into their late 20's, if not later.

2) Pride: When a man lost his job and was struggling things like food stamps was a last option, not something that 50% of the nation would use. A man would take two or three burger flipping jobs rather than a check from Uncle Sam.

3) Community: When a family was in trouble the people around them helped first, not the government. When an old woman across the street broke her hip parents sent their kids over to maintain the yard. When someone was hurt you brought them meals.

4) Respect for Authority and your elders: Not blind walk into a wood chipper respect but when I see someone call Obama a "D!C<" on TV I think he should never be back on that show, and I disagree with everything Obama does (more or less). The lack of respect for offices and elders is very troubling.

5) Family: Why in the world do more married couples not have their elderly parents come live with them? Unless they need round the clock medical care whats the cost? Now we expect the state to care for our parents!

(07-01-2011 10:51 AM)Bull_In_Exile Wrote: [ -> ]

(07-01-2011 08:50 AM)Lord Stanley Wrote: [ -> ]What is this bright shiny past you all long for? When was it better?

Was it the 50s, when Jim Crow was still around? Or the 60s, with the Vietnam War raging? Or perhaps the 70s, with stagflation? Or was it the 80s with Reagan? I guess that leaves the 90s, which did have Super Nintendo I guess, but I don't think the 90s are the summit of America.

That was no golden age; there are no golden ages. Everything’s a trial and different set of fears.

You know lumping in racism iwth wanting more traditional values is lazy..

I could just as esily say your rejection of traditional values must mean you *WANT* more than half of African American babies born to enter this world into a single parent household... Or you like having young black men in Urban Areas have coin toss odds between college or Prision..

Can we *PLEASE* have a discussion about values and the past without the race card being played? or do you really think he wants jim crow?

You all know me well enough to know I am not playing a race card here.

Bull, it is not lazy to ask how the traditional values of the 50's could still tacitly support Jim Crow laws. And my post wasn't only in regards to race laws......

I've never rejected traditional values. My family lives a life probably no different than yours except I don't go to Church.

I asked when is the time of history when traditional values were applied, and what decade should we be pining for? Because every generation, every decade, every historical moment in US history has some dark underbelly that should be understood and talked about....

How can you reconcile traditional values without trying to understand how traditional values can co-exist with Jim Crow, Vietnam, Savings and Loans, Gay Marriage, The Patriot Act and a Decade of the WOT?

Seriously, this is confusing to me. Traditional values as designed by who? Some values for you, different values for me? What is my baseline? Religion? Feel Gooders? Sustainability? Equality? All will lead to different outcomes.

(07-01-2011 11:11 AM)Lord Stanley Wrote: [ -> ]Bull, it is not lazy to ask how the traditional values of the 50's could still tacitly support Jim Crow laws. And my post wasn't only in regards to race laws......

I've never rejected traditional values. My family lives a life probably no different than yours except I don't go to Church.

I asked when is the time of history when traditional values were applied, and what decade should we be pining for? Because every generation, every decade, every historical moment in US history has some dark underbelly that should be understood and talked about....

How can you reconcile traditional values without trying to understand how traditional values can co-exist with Jim Crow, Vietnam, Savings and Loans, Gay Marriage, The Patriot Act and a Decade of the WOT?

Seriously, this is confusing to me. Traditional values as designed by who? Some values for you, different values for me? What is my baseline? Religion? Feel Gooders? Sustainability? Equality? All will lead to different outcomes.

See my post above yours.... No at no time were we perfect. But if you believe the family is the base unit for society how can anyone think we are making 'progress'?

(06-30-2011 11:43 PM)Rebel Wrote: [ -> ]We were never a nation governed by divinity, but we were a nation governed with divinity. You strict Libertarians and liberal Democrats want to know what's going on? 2+2 doesn't equal potato, it equals 4. We have no morals anymore. I won't go into the gay thing like you libs want to do, because I know a lot of moral gay people, but anyone with ANY intelligence or cognitive reasoning skills can see that, since the 60's, this nation has regressed. Kids can't even be whipped anymore in many locations without a f'n child abuse charge.

I am not all that religious, but I do consider myself a Christian and don't besmirch people who are ardent Christians. This multiculturalism BS is screwing this country up. I don't even recognize my nation anymore. ALL of our cherished ideals and values are under attack and, many times, banned. I'll get to more tomorrow, because it's late, but you are witnessing the death of a nation.

Libs, I've never been nice to you here, but I have been nice in public, while making my case. I don't see how I can do that anymore to a mental mindset that seems to want to destroy the nation. We hold up the ideals this nation was founded on with reverence. You think the Constitution is a living document, if not an obsolete document, that can be changed on a whim. We hold up the founders with reverence, you hold up Che, Hugo, Castro, etc., with reverence and make some dumb*** case about how great Castro and Hugo are to their countries. ...yet you won't move there even though you trash our nation DAILY.

if you don't like it here...

(07-01-2011 10:58 AM)Lord Stanley Wrote: [ -> ]

(07-01-2011 09:02 AM)Rebel Wrote: [ -> ]Anyone that thinks this has anything to do with segregation and Jim f'n Crow is an utter moron. Did I post ANYTHING about segregation and Jim Crow?

We harp for the golden ages, for return to morality, for the good ole' days, but I am hard pressed to find a moment in time when all was well.

While I can't state with certainty that our best days are ahead of us, because I am unsure of what the prior "best days" benchmark should be, I believe that the reports of the death of the United States of America are greatly exagerated.

Yep, I've always thought that the "Good Ol' Days" moniker was far too general. You can probably go back and look at every decade for the past 100 years, and you can each choose something you really liked about that era and something you think is terrible, like a smorgasbord. So similar to what Bull In Exile said, I'd love to borrow plenty of attitudes from the 40s and 50s, but blend it in with the more modern tolerances of the current day. I'd like to cherry-pick a lot of things from other times, and I'd also reject others. It's hard to conceptualize and describe, I guess.

By and large, most of what we "chose" would simply be subjective. Some contradictory... There are times when I love using email, social networking sites and cell phones. There are also times when I long for the bygone era of NO email, social networking sites and cell phones.

(07-01-2011 11:10 AM)Bull_In_Exile Wrote: [ -> ]1) Personal responsibility: When folks used to get their girlfriend pregnant they did the honorable thing. This is not just about Abortion but about men acting like boys and teens well into their late 20's, if not later.

2) Pride: When a man lost his job and was struggling things like food stamps was a last option, not something that 50% of the nation would use. A man would take two or three burger flipping jobs rather than a check from Uncle Sam.

3) Community: When a family was in trouble the people around them helped first, not the government. When an old woman across the street broke her hip parents sent their kids over to maintain the yard. When someone was hurt you brought them meals.

4) Respect for Authority and your elders: Not blind walk into a wood chipper respect but when I see someone call Obama a "D!C<" on TV I think he should never be back on that show, and I disagree with everything Obama does (more or less). The lack of respect for offices and elders is very troubling.

5) Family: Why in the world do more married couples not have their elderly parents come live with them? Unless they need round the clock medical care whats the cost? Now we expect the state to care for our parents!

As an aside, do you agree with the original poster that "multiculturalism" is the ruin of our country, and that a typical liberal "hates Capitalism, praises Che, Castro, and Chavez, and is offended by a 4th of July parade, the flag, or the playing of the national anthem is anywhere near "American'"? Just curious.

I think you are idealizing a prior generation. There is plenty of pride to be found among today's Americans. Family is as important as ever, as is community. Respect for authority - - ever hear some of the things that were said about JFK during his presidency? We've always had "robust" debate.

No, the golden age of the 50s and 60s had its own set of issues and struggles, just like we have today, just like every generation has had, just like every generation WILL have. In many areas - technology, individual freedoms, health care, etc - - we have improved.

We still have issues with racial and gender equality, but compare it now to 1960. In 2011 we have approximately 35% of the US population able to enter into same-sex marriage if we choose. In 1960, homosexuals led a life of shame and were under the perpetual threat of violence and ruin.

People moan about political correctness and not being able to "spank" your child. But do folks realize how prevalent domestic violence was in prior generations?

Wishing for the return of a mythical "simpler" time, or "better" time is not going to solve our problems. We do have problems, yeah. But all is not so dire. What we need is a little faith in the resiliency of this country and in our ability to come together and solve problems.

(07-01-2011 10:27 AM)Fo Shizzle Wrote: [ -> ]

(07-01-2011 10:03 AM)wvucrazed Wrote: [ -> ]

(07-01-2011 09:56 AM)BlazerFan11 Wrote: [ -> ]

(07-01-2011 09:36 AM)wvucrazed Wrote: [ -> ]

(07-01-2011 09:32 AM)Machiavelli Wrote: [ -> ]This is somewhat off-topic but it definetly fits to where this country is fcked. Google Anthony Sowell. It's been on the news here in Cleveland. I tell ya. If you are too happy and need to be taken down a notch. Watch Cleveland News channels for a week. I live an hour away and this hasn't hit the Toldeo News Market.

This guys was a serial killer. Straight out of Silence of the Lambs. One of his victims was lured into his house by promising crack cocaine. Once in he beats her, rapes her, and throws her into a closet with two headless torsos. He wanted to mentally terrorize her l guess. Well she escapes jumps out of the 2nd story window. Tells the police. They don't believe HER!!!! That was 2 years ago. 5 victims later they catch the guy because of neighbors complain about the smell. Countless bodies in the house.

So why do I tell you this? East Cleveland just had to lay off 1/2 of their police dept because of budget cuts. Ther is NO MONEY here. Once here. How do you escape it? I honestly feel bad for people in this situation.
We think the answers are in education? I can't imagine having to teach kid's who come from such blight. Now they want to pay teacher's by how kid's do on a test. Would you put your eggs in that basket? Any teacher worth anything would bail? We are in for a world of hurt! I only see pain.

Similar missed opportunities are fairly frequent in serial killer cases, sadly.

And I agree with you 100% about the budget cuts. It's easy to march around in parades with Colonial hats and flags and preach austerity, but when it comes to the actual impact on real people, the tune often changes when it impacts them directly.

...which is why ANY expansion of gov't needs to be highly scrutinized to made sure it is absolutely necessary. People become dependent on it, making it very difficult to get rid of at any point. That's the issue I think Rebel may be getting at. Regardless of your political leanings, you can't deny that gov't has expanded immensely over the past several decades, with both parties to blame.

Now, we've reached a point that is completely unsustainable, but so many people are dependent on the gov't for their livelihood, whether it's through employment or handouts, that no one wants cuts in their sector. That's why, IMO, the nation is f'ed. I absolutely see Americans refusing to accept austerity, even when we get to the point where we are facing imminent bankruptcy, just like you are seeing in Greece right now. The sense of entitlement in America has just gotten too strong, especially in young people, that most would rather see the nation sail right over a cliff rather than give up a tiny sliver of their way of life that they feel the gov't owes to them.

Neither political party has the fortitude to step up and make the needed cuts, because it would be political suicide, and would vault the other party into complete control for a decade or longer. And if either party got to enforce their complete agenda, we'd be screwed anyways. Democrats would continue to drive away businesses and jobs and stifle innovation through oppressive taxes and regulations, while spending us into insolvency. The Republican establishment would go back to spending and bombing, just like it was under W.

So really, any foreseeable outcome still leads us to complete ruin.

Not really; all is not doom and gloom. We need to increase revenue in the short term, cut where we can, and stop the bleeding of wealth into Iraq and Afghanistan. We are less than a decade away from a time when we had projected budget surpluses.

I'd hardly characterize returning the tax rates to the level of the Clinton years as oppressive, or stifling innovation.

There are solutions to be had, but drawing lines in the sand and taking options off the table, as the GOP is doing with eliminating the Bush tax cuts, are not the way to get there.

We need some real bipartisan leadership, and sadly we are locked in such uncompromising gridlock that it seems unlikely.

But none of this equates to the nation being "f'ed". We've always faced challenges. When I was a kid, everybody thought we were on the verge of nuclear war, unemployment was high, and people were saying the same thing: we're "f'ed".

Yet somehow we are still here.

The only tax proposal I see that could save us is the Fair Tax or some hybrid thereof. Our current system is simply unintendable.

Blah, blah, blah...fair tax...blah, blah, blah. Do you spend your whole day thinking about the fair tax? Your sheets must be a mess in the morning.

(07-01-2011 11:32 AM)wvucrazed Wrote: [ -> ]As an aside, do you agree with the original poster that "multiculturalism" is the ruin of our country, and that a typical liberal "hates Capitalism, praises Che, Castro, and Chavez, and is offended by a 4th of July parade, the flag, or the playing of the national anthem is anywhere near "American'"? Just curious.

Well I do think multiculturalism as a *prime virtue* is ruining this nation but not the idea itself that many cultures bring somethings in that we can learn from.

Example of how multiculturalism as a prime virtue is a problem: Ebonics, yes the practice of accepting the mangling of English as 'ok' enough to tune education in that direction. Thankfully that fell through but other aspects pop up

I think a typical person that would call themselves a *progressive* are more offended by this nation than they are bye Che, Castro, or others like that.

Most folks who call themselves liberal just buy the feel good propaganda.

Quote:I think you are idealizing a prior generation. There is plenty of pride to be found among today's Americans. Family is as important as ever, as is community. Respect for authority - - ever hear some of the things that were said about JFK during his presidency? We've always had "robust" debate.

Family is as important as ever? are you kidding? look at the numbers of people who throw perfectly healthy parents into nursing homes. Look at the number of kids who's father don't bother to be a part of their life. By no objective or subjective measure is family stonger now than 50 years ago.

Quote:People moan about political correctness and not being able to "spank" your child. But do folks realize how prevalent domestic violence was in prior generations?

Wow so spanking kids and speaking your mind equals domestic abuse... good to know..

We've been screwed by extremists on both sides--far left and far right--who've both made the incorrect assumption that the US would endure no matter what, so they were free to pursue their own extremist agendas. In their rush to decide who gets the golden eggs, they're killing the goose.

We need somebody with a pragmatic approach to do what works, regardless of whether it's part of either side's dogma. I don't see that happening.

Obama, Reid, Boehner, Pelosi, Biden, McConnell, et al, are fiddling while America burns.

(07-01-2011 11:40 AM)Bull_In_Exile Wrote: [ -> ]

(07-01-2011 11:32 AM)wvucrazed Wrote: [ -> ]As an aside, do you agree with the original poster that "multiculturalism" is the ruin of our country, and that a typical liberal "hates Capitalism, praises Che, Castro, and Chavez, and is offended by a 4th of July parade, the flag, or the playing of the national anthem is anywhere near "American'"? Just curious.

Well I do think multiculturalism as a *prime virtue* is ruining this nation but not the idea itself that many cultures bring somethings in that we can learn from.

Example of how multiculturalism as a prime virtue is a problem: Ebonics, yes the practice of accepting the mangling of English as 'ok' enough to tune education in that direction. Thankfully that fell through but other aspects pop up

I think a typical person that would call themselves a *progressive* are more offended by this nation than they are bye Che, Castro, or others like that.

Most folks who call themselves liberal just buy the feel good propaganda.

Quote:I think you are idealizing a prior generation. There is plenty of pride to be found among today's Americans. Family is as important as ever, as is community. Respect for authority - - ever hear some of the things that were said about JFK during his presidency? We've always had "robust" debate.

Family is as important as ever? are you kidding? look at the numbers of people who throw perfectly healthy parents into nursing homes. Look at the number of kids who's father don't bother to be a part of their life. By no objective or subjective measure is family stonger now than 50 years ago.

Quote:People moan about political correctness and not being able to "spank" your child. But do folks realize how prevalent domestic violence was in prior generations?

Wow so spanking kids and speaking your mind equals domestic abuse... good to know..

Ebonics? Come on, now. That's the ruin of our country? What "other aspects" of multiculturalism are ruining the country? I am eager to hear this.

Old folks in nursing homes? I wonder, would the correlation of women in the workplace - often out of necessity - have anything to do with the increased % of the elderly in retirement homes? Do you think we'd be better with more stay at home moms so that grandma can live with them? Or is it better for the elderly to have around-the-clock medical care, and for women to be able to pursue a career as they choose? And in any event - - how does this translate into the nation being "f'ed"?

People are people; only the circumstances have changed. We weren't nobler in the 50s and 60s than we are today. This romanticizing of the "good old days" ignores the real, ugly, prevalent problems that generation faced.

Liberals buy into the "feel good" propaganda - - i'm curious about that. I assume you believe we are too stupid to think for ourselves and thus are easily swayed by this "feel good" propaganda. Speaking of which, could you specify? What "feel good" propaganda are we buying into that we shouldn't?

As for spanking - you are drawing a conclusion that I didn't make. And even if that is true, are you telling me that a perceived inability to spank your child is leading to the decline of American society? For real?

Ebonics isn't multiculturalism, it's a dialect.

(07-01-2011 11:51 AM)wvucrazed Wrote: [ -> ]Ebonics? Come on, now. That's the ruin of our country? What "other aspects" of multiculturalism are ruining the country? I am eager to hear this.

Old folks in nursing homes? I wonder, would the correlation of women in the workplace - often out of necessity - have anything to do with the increased % of the elderly in retirement homes? Do you think we'd be better with more stay at home moms so that grandma can live with them? Or is it better for the elderly to have around-the-clock medical care, and for women to be able to pursue a career as they choose? And in any event - - how does this translate into the nation being "f'ed"?

People are people; only the circumstances have changed. We weren't nobler in the 50s and 60s than we are today. This romanticizing of the "good old days" ignores the real, ugly, prevalent problems that generation faced.

Liberals buy into the "feel good" propaganda - - i'm curious about that. I assume you believe we are too stupid to think for ourselves and thus are easily swayed by this "feel good" propaganda. Speaking of which, could you specify? What "feel good" propaganda are we buying into that we shouldn't?

As for spanking - you are drawing a conclusion that I didn't make. And even if that is true, are you telling me that a perceived inability to spank your child is leading to the decline of American society? For real?

The idea behind Ebonics: The highly regraded progressive dogma that if a lot of disadvantaged people somewhere do it then it is as valid as anything else anbody else does is ruining the nation.

Firstly I said *perfectly healthy* so all those (round the clock issues) are moot. My in laws are considering early retirement (being offered the wheelbarrow full of cash for her to retire a few years early).

When I told my coworkers that we have invited them to come live with us when they retire people looked at me like I was from mars. "How will your family make that work".... Well my in laws are family and my kids will benefit greatly from being around them, and they will benefit from not having any real financial obligation.

Any parent knows just how much of yourself you pour into children, as a man is it really odd that I would like to give some of that beck to them?

Secondly: Yes stay at home mothers are better for kids, every objective study shows that when a mom spends the first 3 or 4 years of a kids life 'in the home' the kid is better off.

How does this translate into the nation being F'd? well its one more concrete way of breaking down the importance of family. Why bother caring for grannie when we can pass the buck down to Uncle Sam.

On the spanking thing: it does not feel nice when someone takes one of your points to an absurd conclusion does it? you know, kind of like traditional family values equals Jim Crow..

(07-01-2011 11:59 AM)nomad2u2001 Wrote: [ -> ]Ebonics isn't multiculturalism, it's a dialect.

Using Ebonics in the classroom *IS* multiculturalism and cultural relativism.

(07-01-2011 10:55 AM)wvucrazed Wrote: [ -> ]What "traditional values" of the 50s and 60s are you wanting more of that will help us back off the precipice of national destruction that folks seem to think we are teetering on?

Seems to me that it was you who cited the 50s and 60s.

(07-01-2011 12:22 PM)Bull_In_Exile Wrote: [ -> ]

(07-01-2011 11:59 AM)nomad2u2001 Wrote: [ -> ]Ebonics isn't multiculturalism, it's a dialect.

Using Ebonics in the classroom *IS* multiculturalism and cultural relativism.

I guess so.

(07-01-2011 12:21 PM)Bull_In_Exile Wrote: [ -> ]On the spanking thing: it does not feel nice when someone takes one of your points to an absurd conclusion does it? you know, kind of like traditional family values equals Jim Crow..

Oh but that's not what he said. He said that "multiculturalism BS is screwing this country up" and then coupled that with the notion that we've regressed as a society since the 60's.

Yeah, really difficult connection to make, there.

I think your notion that placing the elderly in retirement homes equates to a widespread view of "why pay for Granny when Uncle Sam can do it" is misplaced. Each situation is different, and the fact is that many families simply do not have the ability or resources to care for an elderly loved one. What should they do with them?

What's absurd is claiming the country is "F'ed" because we've left behind our ideals from the golden years, as if that were some magical utopia of American supremacy. As we all know - - - it wasn't.

I think one reason why the old days is becoming more perceived as idealized is because we can now witness every ugly display of society via the Internet, "viral" video clips, and 24-hour cable networks needing sensational material, not to mention whacked out reality shows. Literally thousands of road rage incidents, street attacks, gang fights, and other assorted violence and d-baggery behavior can be watched at your fingertips. I would imagine there was some element of an Ignorance-Is-Bliss thing going on in the past.

In chicken-or-egg type fashion, the question becomes:

Are all these avenues of technology influencing and helping increase acts of bad behavior (thousands of youtube views of a kid bullying another kid makes it more "acceptable" and "cool")? Or... are these avenues of technology a mere reflection of society, in that these things have all happened throughout history, but now the footage is much more widely available?

Personally, I think the answer is somewhere in between. A lot of people tend to believe people in history - that is, the Victorian Era, turn of century, etc. - were prim and proper, living ultra-clean lives. But the truth is that promiscuity, scandal and hooliganism flourished through all eras. And war over petty reasons is certainly nothing new. I DO, however, believe that people in general have gotten increasingly more temperamental and feel less responsible for their own actions these past few decades, imo. I'm also hoping that technology ("oooh... how many facebook 'friends' do you have?") isn't slowly eroding actual face-to-face human interactions, and that excessive banal texting ("how r u, i'm gr8, lmao!") isn't chipping away at actual conversation.

(07-01-2011 11:51 AM)wvucrazed Wrote: [ -> ]What "other aspects" of multiculturalism are ruining the country? I am eager to hear this.

Really? Because you talk a good game but seem woefully ignorant.

Go back to the founding of this country. What were those principles?

Handouts in gov't aid? Shiara Law? Anchor babies? Credit card debt? Free love/hook-up LGBT culture, etc? Wicca? Overwhelming Gov't debt?

I'd be surprised.

Now, since you are defending multiculturalism/diversity, why don't you point me to a place in history where this phenomenon actually contributed to the health and success of a society.

I am eager to hear this.