CSNbbs

The important States for a presidential election or the same state that are important for marketing.

1. California 33,871,648 (no team)
2. Texas 20,851,820 (TCU)
3. New York 18,976,457 (Syracuse and St. Johns)
4. Florida 15,982,378 (South Florida)
5. Illinois 12,419,293 (Could get Northern Illinois)
6. Pennsylvania 12,281,054 (Pitt and Villanova)
7. Ohio 11,353,140 (Cincinnati)
8. Michigan 9,938,444 (no team)
9. New Jersey 8,414,350 (Rutgers and Seton Hall)
10. Georgia 8,186,453 (no team)
11. North Carolina 8,049,313 (could add ECU)
12. Virginia 7,078,515 (no team but Georgetown is close by)
13. Massachusetts 6,349,097 (could add UMass and Providence and UCONN close by)
14. Indiana 6,080,485 (Notre Dame)
15. Washington 5 5,894,121 (no team)
16. Tennessee 5,689,283 (Could add Memphis)
17. Missouri 5,595,211 (no team)
18. Wisconsin 5,363,675 (Marquette)
19. Maryland 5,296,486 (no team but Georgetown is close by)
20. Arizona 5,130,632 (no team)

So I still state that adding Northern Illinois, Memphis, East Carolina or UMass adds New TV markets in the twenty largest states.

Flagship university worth more than any directional university in the long run for any conference.

(05-14-2011 12:48 PM)SO#1 Wrote: [ -> ]Flagship university worth more than any directional university in the long run for any conference.

Really.....So you are saying Vermont or Delaware would be more valuable to a conference than UCF or USF?????

(05-14-2011 12:32 PM)Wilkie01 Wrote: [ -> ]The important States for a presidential election or the same state that are important for marketing.

1. California 33,871,648 (no team)
2. Texas 20,851,820 (TCU)
3. New York 18,976,457 (Syracuse and St. Johns)
4. Florida 15,982,378 (South Florida)
5. Illinois 12,419,293 (Could get Northern Illinois)

What are those numbers you are referring to?

They certainly don't deal with accurate population numbers.

Florida's current population estimate by the Census Bureau is approx 18.5 Million people.

What does 15,982,378 number reference?

In regards to NIU...their 46 yr old on-campus football stadium in DeKalb, IL is clearly TOO BIG to garner a BCS invite...as it seats approx 30,000.

I guess from the list he's saying UMass.

(05-14-2011 12:32 PM)Wilkie01 Wrote: [ -> ]5. Illinois 12,419,293 (Could get Northern Illinois)

Adding Northern Illinois would allow us to 'capture' about 2 square miles of the state - the two miles that campus sits on.

(05-14-2011 01:48 PM)KnightLight Wrote: [ -> ]

(05-14-2011 12:32 PM)Wilkie01 Wrote: [ -> ]The important States for a presidential election or the same state that are important for marketing.

1. California 33,871,648 (no team)
2. Texas 20,851,820 (TCU)
3. New York 18,976,457 (Syracuse and St. Johns)
4. Florida 15,982,378 (South Florida)
5. Illinois 12,419,293 (Could get Northern Illinois)

What are those numbers you are referring to?

They certainly don't deal with accurate population numbers.

Florida's current population estimate by the Census Bureau is approx 18.5 Million people.

What does 15,982,378 number reference?

In regards to NIU...their 46 yr old on-campus football stadium in DeKalb, IL is clearly TOO BIG to garner a BCS invite...as it seats approx 30,000.

Yes, i noticed those numbers being off too. Florida is about 18 million and NYS is closer to 20 million. I think numbers above are from the 2000-2002 census and estimates.

You can't really go by states, you have to go by cities, towns and TV markets. How do you get NY State? (SYR, Buffalo, Albany, NYC?) or Florida (Miami, Orlando, Tampa?) different cultures markets most states.


http://www.stationindex.com/tv/tv-markets

TOP 100 TELEVISION MARKETS
Rank Metropolitan Market Regions / Areas
1 New York
2 Los Angeles
3 Chicago
4 Philadelphia
5 Dallas-Ft. Worth
6 San Francisco-Oakland-San Jose
7 Boston
8 Atlanta
9 Washington, DC
10 Houston
11 Detroit
12 Phoenix
13 Tampa-St. Petersburg
14 Seattle-Tacoma
15 Minneapolis-St. Paul
16 Miami-Ft.Lauderdale
17 Cleveland-Akron
18 Denver
19 Orlando-Daytona Beach-Melbourne
20 Sacramento-Stockton-Modesto
21 St. Louis
22 Portland, OR
23 Pittsburgh
24 Charlotte, NC
25 Indianapolis
26 Baltimore
27 Raleigh-Durham
28 San Diego
29 Nashville
30 Hartford-New Haven
31 Kansas City
32 Columbus, OH

(05-14-2011 01:48 PM)KnightLight Wrote: [ -> ]

(05-14-2011 12:32 PM)Wilkie01 Wrote: [ -> ]The important States for a presidential election or the same state that are important for marketing.

1. California 33,871,648 (no team)
2. Texas 20,851,820 (TCU)
3. New York 18,976,457 (Syracuse and St. Johns)
4. Florida 15,982,378 (South Florida)
5. Illinois 12,419,293 (Could get Northern Illinois)

What are those numbers you are referring to?

They certainly don't deal with accurate population numbers.

Florida's current population estimate by the Census Bureau is approx 18.5 Million people.

What does 15,982,378 number reference?

In regards to NIU...their 46 yr old on-campus football stadium in DeKalb, IL is clearly TOO BIG to garner a BCS invite...as it seats approx 30,000.

That's the state population.

As long as this thread is being indulged by Big East fans on the official board, here is what Wilkie01's list would look like using numbers from the more recent 2010 census:

37,253,956 California
25,145,561 Texas
19,378,102 New York
18,801,310 Florida
12,830,632 Illinois
12,702,379 Pennsylvania
11,536,504 Ohio
9,883,640 Michigan
9,687,653 Georgia
9,535,483 North Carolina
8,791,894 New Jersey
8,001,024 Virginia
6,724,540 Washington
6,547,629 Massachusetts
6,483,802 Indiana
6,392,017 Arizona
6,346,105 Tennessee
5,988,927 Missouri
5,773,552 Maryland
5,686,986 Wisconsin

Also, here is a list of states with at least one FBS team not yet in a BCS conference, ordered by state population divided by # of FBS teams in state:

6,459,367 New York
5,321,994 California
4,276,877 Illinois
4,234,126 Pennsylvania
3,273,815 Massachusetts
2,685,901 Florida
2,095,463 Texas
1,976,728 Michigan
1,907,097 North Carolina
1,676,399 Colorado
1,620,951 Indiana
1,586,526 Tennessee
1,457,959 Arkansas
1,446,456 Kentucky
1,442,063 Ohio

So in an imaginary world where FBS teams divide their state's population's interest equally, your top 5 expansion candidates would be Buffalo, Army, San Diego State, Fresno State and San Jose State. Then Northern Illinois, Temple, Massachusetts, 3 Floridas, 7 Texans, 3 Michigans and ECU, but Pennsylvania moves down one spot if Villanova upgrades.

(I have no intention of defending this post. Have at it.)

(05-14-2011 03:08 PM)Wilkie01 Wrote: [ -> ]

(05-14-2011 01:48 PM)KnightLight Wrote: [ -> ]

(05-14-2011 12:32 PM)Wilkie01 Wrote: [ -> ]The important States for a presidential election or the same state that are important for marketing.

1. California 33,871,648 (no team)
2. Texas 20,851,820 (TCU)
3. New York 18,976,457 (Syracuse and St. Johns)
4. Florida 15,982,378 (South Florida)
5. Illinois 12,419,293 (Could get Northern Illinois)

What are those numbers you are referring to?

They certainly don't deal with accurate population numbers.

Florida's current population estimate by the Census Bureau is approx 18.5 Million people.

What does 15,982,378 number reference?

In regards to NIU...their 46 yr old on-campus football stadium in DeKalb, IL is clearly TOO BIG to garner a BCS invite...as it seats approx 30,000.

That's the state population.

FROM ELEVEN YEARS AGO!!!!!!

If you are going to post basically meaingless info (believe most knew what the 4 most populist states are)...at least be somewhat accurate and current.

When did DePaul get kicked out of the BE, Wiki?

States, for the most part, are important but only if another BCS conference doesn't have far more "pull" in it so as not to totally negate the addition of a candidate into a different conference.

In this case, looking at the states Wilkie provided:

37,253,956 California - owned by the Pac-12
25,145,561 Texas - owned by the Big 12
19,378,102 New York
18,801,310 Florida - shared by the SEC and the ACC
12,830,632 Illinois - owned by the Big Ten
12,702,379 Pennsylvania - owned by the Big Ten
11,536,504 Ohio - owned by the Big Ten
9,883,640 Michigan - owned by the Big Ten
9,687,653 Georgia - owned by the SEC
9,535,483 North Carolina - owned by the ACC
8,791,894 New Jersey - owned by the Big East
8,001,024 Virginia - owned by the ACC
6,724,540 Washington - owned by the Pac-12
6,547,629 Massachusetts
6,483,802 Indiana - owned by the Big Ten
6,392,017 Arizona - owned by the Pac-12
6,346,105 Tennessee - owned by the SEC
5,988,927 Missouri - owned by the Big 12
5,773,552 Maryland - owned by the ACC
5,686,986 Wisconsin - owned by the Big Ten

Notice the two states not presently "owned" by any conference? New York and Massachusetts. And one of the huge reasons why this is the case is that "flagship state school" has absolutely no meaning in these states. Also the two largest DMAs in these states, NYC and Boston respectively, besides being huge pro sports markets (as most of the larger DMAs are) tend to have varying tastes in terms of favorite college football programs leaning more toward their Catholic identities to Notre Dame which doesn't belong to any conference for football than to Syracuse/Rutgers/UConn for NYC and to Boston College/UMass/UConn in Boston.

This is why, after states (which in most cases is determined by having the flagship university or a super successful rural secondary state school, like FSU and VT), the emphasis in the past has turned to urban metropolitan schools for reach in these "owned" states such as Georgia Tech and Pittsburgh, although a case could be made for GT as the secondary school in Georgia like FSU and VT, but I don't know how much pull the Yellow Jackets have outside of Atlanta.

The Big East being the last major football conference to form (yes, I know, the Big 12 technically came after but that was a merger of two major football conferences that preceded it) wasn't left with a lot of state flagship or secondary rural state schools to choose from. And its initial 4 programs that did the choosing were all urban metro schools - Pittsburgh, BC, SU, and Miami. They grabbed the two state flagship schools that were available (West Virginia and Rutgers) and then another urban metro school in Temple and finally a secondary rural state school in VT.

When the Big East was raided by the ACC, their expansion choices continued to be urban metro schools - Louisville, Cincinnati, and South Florida. Seeing a trend here?

I do think it is interesting to note that acccording to this site here the Top 6 DMAs without an AQ BCS team directly within that DMA are:

#4 - Philly (Temple, Nova)
#5 - Dallas/Ft. Worth (soon will be off this list with TCU joining in 2012)
#10 - Houston (Houston, Rice)
#17 - Cleveland/Akron/Canton
#19 - Orlando/Daytona (Central Florida)
#24 - Baltimore (Navy)

with TCU now in the fold and the other blue highlighted programs the ones most often mentioned as candidates for possible Big East expansion. If further Big East expansion is to take place, I think history tells us what direction, rightly or wrongly, it will take.

Cheers,
Neil

New York is owned by the Big East. We prove it every year with the BE tournament in MSG. Nobody outside of the BE has a slice of NY anywhere the BE. Who sells more college BB tickets in NY state than SYR. It could only be Kentucky because Kentucky is the only school in the nation that averages a bigger attendance than SYR.

Between St. Johns, Rutgers, SYR, UCONN, and even ND BB= I think you can give NY state to the Big east.

NY state doesn't care about college FB but the Yankee BOwl is working on that. SYR also has the largest average FB attendance in the state at 39,000 in a down year.

(05-14-2011 05:10 PM)frogman Wrote: [ -> ]New York is owned by the Big East. We prove it every year with the BE tournament in MSG.

Sorry, I thought it was obvious I was referring to college football.

Cheers,
Neil

NYS does care about college football, but circumstances have not allowed for the growth of AQ programs beyond 1 private in SU. Army has its base in the LoHud, The Ives and Colgate do well for FCS, and the Cortica Jug is one of the most well known D3 games in the country. Since NYS blocked its public schools from offering athletic scholarships until 1988 major publics could not develop programs. UB has barely been FBS long enough to judge our potention, as our program suffered from too quickly moving from D3 to FBS in just 6 seasons. The MAC title season gave glimpes of that potential, but having more than 1 FBS winning season will expose more. Stony Brook is only now talking of moving to FBS eventually. Both schools have the institutional profiles seen in current AQ members (both AAU's) and nice markets without any other significant AQ school interest (UB with Buffalo-Niagara, and SBU with Nassua-Suffolk) [as does fellow flagship UMass, who had suffered from similar athletics disinterest in private-school powered Massachusetts]. Point being, both NYS and MA, as the 2 largest states with no public AQ program, still have growth potential.

(05-14-2011 06:18 PM)RecoveringHillbilly Wrote: [ -> ]NYS does care about college football, but circumstances have not allowed for the growth of AQ programs beyond 1 private in SU. Army has its base in the LoHud, The Ives and Colgate do well for FCS, and the Cortica Jug is one of the most well known D3 games in the country. Since NYS blocked its public schools from offering athletic scholarships until 1988 major publics could not develop programs. UB has barely been FBS long enough to judge our potention, as our program suffered from too quickly moving from D3 to FBS in just 6 seasons. The MAC title season gave glimpes of that potential, but having more than 1 FBS winning season will expose more. Stony Brook is only now talking of moving to FBS eventually. Both schools have the institutional profiles seen in current AQ members (both AAU's) and nice markets without any other significant AQ school interest (UB with Buffalo-Niagara, and SBU with Nassua-Suffolk) [as does fellow flagship UMass, who had suffered from similar athletics disinterest in private-school powered Massachusetts]. Point being, both NYS and MA, as the 2 largest states with no public AQ program, still have growth potential.

Can UB and SBU increase interest in their own areas? Of course. But when you start from barely registering on the dial, the only way to go is up. That's a completely different argument though than obtaining state-wide support the way other state "flagship" institutions outside NY and MA get.

And UB and SBU are "flagships" the same way UA and BU are "flagships" - in name only.

Cheers,
Neil

(05-14-2011 06:18 PM)RecoveringHillbilly Wrote: [ -> ]NYS does care about college football, but circumstances have not allowed for the growth of AQ programs beyond 1 private in SU. Army has its base in the LoHud, The Ives and Colgate do well for FCS, and the Cortica Jug is one of the most well known D3 games in the country. Since NYS blocked its public schools from offering athletic scholarships until 1988 major publics could not develop programs. UB has barely been FBS long enough to judge our potention, as our program suffered from too quickly moving from D3 to FBS in just 6 seasons. The MAC title season gave glimpes of that potential, but having more than 1 FBS winning season will expose more. Stony Brook is only now talking of moving to FBS eventually. Both schools have the institutional profiles seen in current AQ members (both AAU's) and nice markets without any other significant AQ school interest (UB with Buffalo-Niagara, and SBU with Nassua-Suffolk) [as does fellow flagship UMass, who had suffered from similar athletics disinterest in private-school powered Massachusetts]. Point being, both NYS and MA, as the 2 largest states with no public AQ program, still have growth potential.

I don't think that it is a given that New York State would not support additional high level football. The situation is obviously a result of the evolution of the flagship university system and the evolution of the historic teams of interest. NYS awarded its land grant to a predominantly private school, Cornell. NYS did not have a flagship university system until the 1950's. When it did create a flagship, it divided it between four campuses, undermining the potential that single campus would might have had to create a big time sports program.

Army was extremely popular and competitive, but could not remain competitive as college sports evolved.

Its private universities filled much the college sports gap, but all but one deemphasized sports over many years for a variety of reasons, Fordham, NYU, Columbia, Cornell, Colgate, etc. Syracuse is basically the last survivor of this group.

I don't get the population and market stuff. A winner is a winner and a winner ye shall watch even if they have a town population under 10,000. Spreading the Big East out trying to get ratings is gonna leave the Big East vunerable like always.

TV contracts are based up actual watchers and potential watchers so DMA matters alot!