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Some get tired of BP harping about the cost of the Iraq War, national debt and the deficits, but there is a direct corellation between debt-the Dollars strength-and our national wealth. There is no free lunch, folks. We all end up paying for every government expenditure through a lower standard of living-be it a war, a social program or whatever:




A year after "shop 'til you drop" stopped, the nation fixates on this question: Will consumer spending ever return to pre-recession levels?

Increasingly, the answer appears to be no. Belt-tightening in bad times is normal. And after every other recession since World War II, penny-pinching quickly fell out of fashion and Americans resumed their demand for houses, cars and everything else.

This time it's different. Like the Great Depression in the 1930s, the Great Recession seems destined to turn many Americans into lasting coupon-cutters, scrimpers and savers. Consumers dug a debt hole over the past decade from which there's no easy climb out. The population segment that drives spending the most baby boomers faces special pressure: Boomers are running out of time.

A study by research firm AlixPartners concluded that once a new normal sets in after this recession ends, Americans will spend at about 86 percent of their pre-downturn level.

In an economy driven by consumption, the implications are far-reaching if that forecast proves correct:

For every kitchen not remodeled, there will be lost sales of appliances and supplies, and fewer jobs for designers and contractors. As homeowners do work around the house themselves, there will be less work for gardeners, plumbers and handymen.

For every shopper who trades down from luxury stores to discount stores, it will mean less profit for retailers and manufacturers. Retailers will continue to offer few product choices and leaner inventories, and they'll reassess store locations and advertising.

If sales of cars and trucks average closer to the recession level of 10 million a year than the 16 million in boom times, more suppliers will fail and further consolidation among automakers could occur. Taxes not paid on lost vehicle sales will continue to stress budgets of state and local governments.

Frugality may be good for family budgets, but it's bad for the national economy. And that has the potential to reinforce and continue the miserly mood. A Gallup survey last month found seven in 10 Americans are cutting weekly expenses a number that has been consistent through the summer.

A year after last fall's financial meltdown turned a garden-variety recession into the worst downturn since the Depression, thriftiness is still driven by the twin engines of necessity and fear. Unemployment, now at 9.7 percent, is still rising and expected to reach double digits before year's end for the first time since 1982. Many who still have jobs are getting paid less, and investments have a long way to go before they return to pre-meltdown levels.

Kathy Haney, 46, of Orland Park, Ill., has a job but is scaling back her shopping and packing her lunch.

"You put your priorities in different places because you never know if you're going to have a job tomorrow," the legal secretary says. "You think twice now. I have six TVs in the house. Do I really need a new flat screen?"

For her and many other Americans, the answer is no. The underlying causes of the meltdown and where it left millions financially suggests a fundamental change is under way. Personal spending has fallen in four of the last six quarters the only time that's happened since quarterly records were first compiled in 1947.

In a normal recession, a vicious downward cycle of reduced spending by consumers and layoffs by employers finally eases and a virtuous cycle begins. Consumers start spending again. Factories ramp back up to meet the demand and hire workers. Incomes rise, fueling greater spending, more production and more jobs.

Until the Great Recession, the worst recession since World War II was in 1981-82. Unemployment peaked at 10.8 percent in December 1982, a month after the recession had ended.

The recovery that followed was powered by baby boomers, they were mostly in their 20s and early 30s then. Their careers were taking off, they were starting families, and they were spending freely. On homes, furniture, cars and everything else. Saving for retirement was the last thing on their minds.

Fueled by boomers, when the recession ended, growth was explosive. Consumer spending rose 5.7 percent in 1983. GDP rose 4.5 percent in '83 and 7.2 percent in 1984.

"If someone gets more comfortable, they spend a little more," says Erik Hurst, an economist at the University of Chicago's Booth School of Business. "As they spend a little more, someone else spends more."

Jump to today. For most of this decade, Americans enjoyed a credit-fueled binge that allowed them to spend more than they made. They snatched up everything from gadgets to houses.

Those houses soared in value and became as valuable a source of cash as a bank ATM. Home equity was tapped to pay for vacations, new cars and kitchen renovations. The rising stock market gave people an inflated sense of wealth as they watched their retirement accounts grow.

Not unlike the Roaring '20s, which preceded the Great Depression three generations ago, people believed the good times would never end. Per capita personal spending ballooned 25 percent from 2003 to 2005, according to data from Euromonitor International.

When the party ended, the nation was left with more than just a hangover. Personal debt had doubled in a decade. As of July, it stood at $13.8 trillion, or about $124,000 per household. Despite months of frugality, that was only slightly below its 2008 peak.

It will take years to work down the debt, which will prolong people's thriftiness. Paying it down will be harder because of the layoffs, pay cuts, freezes and furloughs. Personal income has fallen or been flat eight of the past 10 months.

On the asset side of their balance sheets, plunging stock prices and home values have made Americans feel poorer. Their net worth the difference between the value of what they own and what they owe has taken a staggering $12.2 trillion hit in the Great Recession. Net worth fell from $62.6 trillion at the end of 2007 to $50.4 trillion at the end of this year's first quarter, figures from the Federal Reserve show.

The result: Consumer spending adjusted for inflation fell 0.2 percent in 2008 the first annual drop since 1980. Hardest hit from the first half of last year to the first half of this year: Motor vehicles and parts (down 17.2 percent); furnishings and durable household equipment (down 8.8 percent); clothing and footwear (down 5.8 percent).

"There will be a fundamental shift in the kind of cars we buy, a fundamental shift in the homes we buy, and a fundamental shift in consumption generally," says Matt Murray, an economist at the University of Tennessee. "And that is not something that took place in the 1980s."

As in the 1980s, much of that shift will be driven by baby boomers. For the 78 million people born from 1946 through 1964, the Great Recession hit at a particularly inopportune time during peak years of earning and saving before retirement. Boomers range from 44 to 63 today the youngest is nearly 10 years older than the oldest was in 1982. They are running out of time and are most likely to remain cautious spenders and become aggressive savers even as the economy improves.

The housing bubble mistakenly led boomers and millions of others to believe their home was their retirement nest egg. If they left their home equity alone during the boom, they've taken a hit the last couple years but are still ahead. But many treated their home like a personal bank and spent the gains by tapping a home equity line of credit.

Some now feel disgusted with the great national buying binge and are reacting against it. Last month, Chicago playwright Maureen Riley began giving away what she amassed.

"I felt this tremendous clarity as I looked around and saw my space emptying out and my closet emptying out," the 55-year-old says.

Despite all the battered personal balance sheets, thriftiness will abate somewhat as the economy continues to recover. There will still be vacations and home remodeling. But there will be caution, too.

Sanda Schramm, 63, a second-grade school teacher from Florham Park, N.J., and her husband Rob, 64, made changes after their retirement funds fell 20 percent below their peak. They considered themselves frugal before the recession. Now, they are even more tightfisted.

Instead of scouring for 40 percent discounts at Macy's and other department stores, she looks for 75 percent markdowns and shops more at consignment stores. They go out to dinner once a month instead of twice a week. And most everything they buy is paid for in cash, not with a credit card.

When the economy bounces back and her retirement accounts recover, Schramm says she'll continue to shop at consignment shops but will probably go to restaurants more.

"When the housing market and stocks were booming, everybody felt wealthy," she says. "But when everything goes down, you feel you're vulnerable ... I have always been careful, but now I am even more careful."

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20090907/ap_o..._frugality
Now that's a long post.

Personally, I think rather than a broad ranging downturn going forward, it is going to be more like 85% of us, it will be back to life as normal, but for 12-15% of the population, things will really hit the skids. Having that many unemployed might even mean lower costs in the service industries, and a ready supply of handimen and housekeepers.

To be honest, many of us, we feel the bad vibes, and for sure our net worth on paper is less. But in the day to day world, we are still working for the same money, inflation is in check, and things are not really that much different.

Yeah, the unemployed are not making descretionary purchases at all, just living hand to mouth, but that group for the most part didn't spend that much money to drive the economy anyway.

Some, the boss looked around in the office and said, here are 20 people, these three have not been doing that much anyway, out the door with them, and productivity in the office doesn't change that much.

Who I do feel sorry, is the younger hard working ones that just cannot get that first chance, or had a job and a newly purchased car or home and got layed off and couldn't keep up their purchases. They'll need to suck it up and start over. It's happened to others before.

So my take is, for most people, this thing will level out, there is just going to be a little bit bigger pool of sad cases at the bottom of the heap.
Quote:But in the day to day world, we are still working for the same money, inflation is in check, and things are not really that much different.

Don't agree. For the first thing inflation eats away out our earnings. How many of us have had an increase in salary over the last year or two to compensate for the 3-4% inflation? I sure haven't.

Next, many of us have taken a real cut in pay. 3-7% is typical.

Finally when you factor in elimination of tax cuts, increase in some tax rates, increases in cost of fuel and transportation (not really reflected in inflation increases) and the like we have less disposable income.

Bush and now Obama have lowered our standard of living. Don't believe any BS that says otherwise.
The roaring twenties and the ripping nineties have the same thing in common, they were artificially fueled, purposeful bubbles created by the central bank and promoted by their peers on Wall who wielded their influence on Washington to relax regulation so they could pump and dump the markets in this country with little regard the impact on people involved directly or indirectly, not to mention the innocent bystanders who got caught up in market conditions, I suspect done in tandem knowing all to well the end result wasn't going to be pretty, both times.

In other words, the average person got f@cked by Wall Street and their government. Nice huh?
All that praise directed at Greenspan back in the 90's went to his head. He took his eye off the inflation ball.

To be honest the whole concept of a Federal Reserve Bank tweaking interest rates to control inflation and the US economy is flawed from the start. Economies are too complex and subject to too many factors for human beings to control. Hell, we can't predict what the economy is going to do in 3 months let alone overall!

The best solution would be to go back to a common commodity-GOLD for example-and let that be used to control the value of world currencies. Central Banks have demonstrated they can't do it.

But it would be a major battle to got back to a GOLD standard because we've given great power to the Fed and they don't want to give it up.
Plus.....we don't have enough gold now.
Easy enough to resolve, the Treasury needs to start buying it. Exchange Dollars for Gold, replenish the Treasury. The Dollar would naturally assume a certain value of Gold-probably in the range of $ 1000-$1200.

Dollar currency notes were initially receipts against a Gold coin. They were not the money, they were a promise to pay the money-which was Gold coinage.

In 1932 the Fed expropriated the Gold coinage and the currency notes became the money. The only thing backing them became a Fed promise to control the value of the currency notes by controlling the quantity of them in circulation.

They've phucked up horribly at that job-in 1932 an ounze of Gold was worth $ 35. Today an ounze of Gold is worth $ 1000.00. Since the Fed is the first person in line in the daisy chain (or Ponzi Scheme if you want) they realize the greatest advantage by continually inflating our economy. US citizens are the tail end charlies on the daisy chain-we take it up the ass as the Dollar plummets.

If more Americans understood how the Fed has ripped us off of our wealth there would be a revolution, but they don't. That's why Ponzi Schemes work, they're subtle and clever. Most folks don't understand how they're being ripped off.
(09-09-2009 01:51 PM)Dirty Ernie Wrote: [ -> ]Who I do feel sorry, is the younger hard working ones that just cannot get that first chance, or had a job and a newly purchased car or home and got layed off and couldn't keep up their purchases. They'll need to suck it up and start over. It's happened to others before.

I feel most sorry for my fellow baby boomers that have lost their jobs. Even in a good economy, employers are reluctant to hire that age group. Even more so now.
Mile High, I feel the pain about that. But with the young and newly minted, those first 5-10 years are really crucial. They need to get in there and get some baseline experience and get some skins in the game. Starting at 30, as I'm afraid many will, it is harder to get where you need to be.

With the boomers, OK, you've been in the economy for 40 years already. By now, you've either made it or you have not. Sure, if you are at peak earnings and all the sudden that last five years is gone that you were depending on to fluff up the nest, that is a bite for sure. And the 'ol retirement account situation is enough to give you heartburn, I admit.

But I don't have much sympathy for the GM factory guys that were making $85-90,000 with OT, now they lost their job, and they are crying they need to go on welfare. Don't tell me that. You should have been socking something away.

I still contend inflation isn't that bad. You can pick up a loaded Denali with 40,000 for $15 grand, what a deal. If you have good credit history and a job you can get into some real estate for an unbelievable bargain. And if you are looking for a handyman to drywall your garage, there are a ton of them out there that will do it for $10 an hour. Milk is $1.98 a gallon, less sometimes, if you shop right. Clothing is practically free. You can walk into a Kohl's on Weds. with your senior discount and your 15% coupon and load up an armload of stuff for a hundred bucks.

Now, 40 bucks to park in the Ann Arbor Golf Club, not such a bargain! :-).
Quote:I still contend inflation isn't that bad.

Yet.
Quote:I still contend inflation isn't that bad.

When people say this it enrages me.

If the state of Michigan were to propose a 1 penny increase in sales tax, a mere 1%, most folks in this state would go ape. There would be massive protests in Lansing, blog sites would pop up asking that we recall the Governor and Legislators. Continuous coverage on the local news.

But, we have a 3% continuous rate of inflation and folks say, "Well, it's not that big a deal. 3% isn't that much."

BULLCHIT!!!!!

Inflation is the most insidious tax of all. It eats away at our wealth, deflates our currency and raises prices. It squanders our hard work and productivity.

The US led the world in productivity for decades. Yet our prices never came down, they went UP instead! Why is that? If productivity is positive you expect prices will come down, not go up.

The reason is inflation. Inflation ate up all the productivity we achieved. Instead of becoming wealthier as a nation and as individuals, we got poorer because inflation-mostly caused by continuous deficits-ate up all our gains in wealth and then some.

In order to break even with a 3% inflation rate you have to realize 4-5% increase in salary every year. The additional above and beyond 3% is because most of us get our salary increase once a year rather than incremental adjustments.

I sure don't see a 5% increase in salary every year. Don't know who does.

People need to WAKE UP about the seriousness of inflation. It's the biggest ripoff of the American people since the founding of the Federal Reserve System. The Fed makes a profit because of inflation-they create more money out of thin air and then 'sell' it to us at the going rate-then the Dollars depreciate due to inflation and their obligatin is reduced accordingly.

The folks at the head of the daisy chain (Federal Reserve Bank) are the only ones who benefit from inflation. By the time those Dollars reach the average working man inflation has reduced their value considerably.
(09-09-2009 10:37 PM)BroncoPhilly Wrote: [ -> ]Easy enough to resolve, the Treasury needs to start buying it. Exchange Dollars for Gold, replenish the Treasury. The Dollar would naturally assume a certain value of Gold-probably in the range of $ 1000-$1200.

Dollar currency notes were initially receipts against a Gold coin. They were not the money, they were a promise to pay the money-which was Gold coinage.

In 1932 the Fed expropriated the Gold coinage and the currency notes became the money. The only thing backing them became a Fed promise to control the value of the currency notes by controlling the quantity of them in circulation.

They've phucked up horribly at that job-in 1932 an ounze of Gold was worth $ 35. Today an ounze of Gold is worth $ 1000.00. Since the Fed is the first person in line in the daisy chain (or Ponzi Scheme if you want) they realize the greatest advantage by continually inflating our economy. US citizens are the tail end charlies on the daisy chain-we take it up the ass as the Dollar plummets.

If more Americans understood how the Fed has ripped us off of our wealth there would be a revolution, but they don't. That's why Ponzi Schemes work, they're subtle and clever. Most folks don't understand how they're being ripped off.

No it's not easy enough to resolve, non of these problems have easy, silver bullet solutions, to say that is as irresponsible as saying there isn't a problem. There would be a run on gold, and the people with the resources would be the ones to benefit the most (see Karl Marx). The rest would be digging through the trash for a peach pit.
Quote:But, we have a 3% continuous rate of inflation and folks say, "Well, it's not that big a deal. 3% isn't that much."

We wish!

http://www.shadowstats.com/
Quote:No it's not easy enough to resolve, non of these problems have easy, silver bullet solutions, to say that is as irresponsible as saying there isn't a problem. There would be a run on gold, and the people with the resources would be the ones to benefit the most (see Karl Marx). The rest would be digging through the trash for a peach pit.

We need to get our currency stabilised and as quickly as possible. The Federal Reserve Bank is heading over a cliff and our economy is following it.

No, there are no easy solutions because this disaster has been many decades in the making. But to continue on with a system that is leading us to ruin is irresponsible. We jumped off of the Gold standard in 1971 at Bretton Woods. We need to get back into it to encourage foreign lenders we're serious about controlling inflation.

If we don't they'll flip us off one day when we turn to them for another loan. I for one don't want to be beholden unto the continued benificence of the Chinese and Japanese to lend us their money in our continued orgy of deficit spending. Maybe you do, DB?
Well, we need to get bridge loan to get us through that. 02-13-banana
Yeah, we need one more 'fix' to carry us through the day. Then TOMORROW we'll get cracking on spending controls.

Weren't we saying the same things in 1976???
We definately were during the 1984 election, but it was Reagon on the defensive about deficits. They were miniscule then compared to now.
Reagan never had a Republican majority so you can't judge what he might have done. Bush had all the tools, and flopped. Obama has the majorities as well, he has no excuses.
Why was Reagun defending the deficits and saying that they didn't matter? He had a LOT TO do with spending back then.

Obama is doing what he said he would do. Fickle is as fickle gets. I didn't vote for him, but it's hard to sit and whine when he's been on his word.
When people talk about inflation, I just have to laugh unless they had some skins in the game back in the late 70's when we got into the 18-20% rate. In those days, people were buying just because they were afraid if they didn't, the price next month would be noticeably higher.

I know there are several theories about the causes of price inflation, I think the Marxist view is it represents unearned money (profit), over and above what is required for creativity and management of enterprise. I really don't know.

But as long as costs vs. income stay somewhat congruent, it isn't really a problem.

Although if you think about those dependant on savings for their lifestyle, (fixed income), then it comes down to inflation vs. investment returns, and also importantly, how much capital you are working with.

If you are from an old money family, connections, family property, trust funds, a good education, everything is pretty cool. If you a 75 and you worked at a service or shop job, no family money to fall back on, your nest egg can get eaten alive after 3-4 years of double digit inflation.

I think countries do the same. We've borrowed trillions from the Chinese. Bang, a few years of healthy inflation and all the sudden the debt is not as big a percentage of GNP.
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