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Is everyone in agreement that the 1975-76 Bronco squad of Cutter, Griffin, Tyson, Harvey, and Kursen was the greatest starting five in the history of WMU basketball? They went 25-3 and 15-1 in the MAC. I believe that Cutter was the only junior and the other four were seniors. I don't remember any of them being particularly athletic. Solid yes but not highlight reel type players. In fact what I remember most about them (I was in middle school at the time) was that they could all pass really well and it seemed like they knew where each other were going to be on the court without even looking. At times they even seemed to be overpassing. So if they were arguably the best ever then you would have to assume that they were pretty good in the preceeding two years too, right? Wrong. In 74-75 they were 8-6 in the MAC which was good for 5th place. In 73-74 they were 5-7 in the MAC and 13-13 overall. How can that be? Well I'm guessing that it's because the players developed some amazing team chemistry during the preceeding years when they weren't very successful. It seems like many on this listserve are searching for a freshman magic pill that will propel WMU to George Mason 2006 status my March. Well how many freshman contributed to the success of GM's 06 squad? That's right, none. I'm convinced that because recruiting is so competitive these days the chances of an outstanding D1 player (like say David Robinson) slipping to a mid major would require more luck than good recruiting. And the bottom line is that the kids who end up as mid major recruits typically have aspects of their games that need a lot of work which is why they aren't particularly productive right away. Many times they are kids with huge potential but significant flaws that the mid major coaches feel that they will be able to correct over time. The mm coaches basically do a lot of dice rolling. So maybe the best way for a mid major team to be competitive in March is by taking solid players and developing some team chemistry over a period of years then adding a layer of top notch coaching to the equation and sprinkle in some luck. Of course then the question becomes, where to develop the chemistry. Do you take the hit in the win column for a couple years on the chance that chemistry will develop during the games or do you try to evolve chemistry in practice? Unfortunately most mid major coaches don't have the luxury of being able to go into a season without worrying about winning. Most mid major coaches are on a short leash and need to win right away because there are plenty of successful D2 coaches waiting in the wings. So there's your catch 22. Eldon Miller was in the right place at the right time and was able to use his honeymoon years to develop the greatest team in the history of WMU basketball. So how did that formula work for him at OSU?

Quote:Is everyone in agreement that the 1975-76 Bronco squad of Cutter, Griffin, Tyson, Harvey, and Kursen was the greatest starting five in the history of WMU basketball?

They were probably the most talented WMU team given the level of competition of the times. They couldn't contend with recent strong teams we've had, the level of the game is vastly improved since then.

Being in middle school I will give you a pass on the athleticism "observation". What was lacking was great skill across the board.

Paul Griffen played in the NBA for a number of years and likely would have done so for many more if he had not had reconstructive surgery on his knee. At WMU he bodied up the most athletic bid or the most skilled inside/outside threat. His work against Adrian Dantley got alot of attention. I believe Paul averaged 10 and 10 his last year. If he hadn't been so unselfish dishing particularly to Cutter and Tyson, shooting over 50% he could of easily averaged over 20 a game.
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Harvey successfully ran track at Gary Westside (440) and took the role of defensive stopper for '76 squad. Very tough mentally.

Kurzen as a Geology or Earth Science major was rock solid. Quick and deceptively strong. A decent spot up shooter who did a good job of delivering the "rock" to the right folk in the right place. Almost never killed his dribble in the wrong spot and wrong time.

Cutter was not a great athlete, but he had a very high IQ. Unlike other bigs who are observed to "plod" Tom had great hands (very soft), was deceptively quick and was a master of avoiding wasted motion. Up on his tippy toes he had position using his wide can and got the angle and quick release with a deft touch before the cloud piecers could break gravity.

Tyson was a 3rd NBA draft pick by the soon to become World Champion Portland Trailblazers. The Blazers did not have a 1st round pick but did select Johnny Davis out of Dayton in the 2nd. Tys was their last cut. Almost any other team and Jeff likely would have stuck. I'm not sure how much the tragic death of his wife and mother in law in an auto accident around the time training camp going on affected Jeff. He did have a cup of coffee with the Atlanta Hawks a year later but we'll never know how that tragedy shaped Jeff at that time. Jeff was a pretty easy going guy. Very likeable. His wife, IMO, was his biggest fan. She was his motor. The sudden departure in the midst of head winds may have had a significant effect. Only speculation.

Re chemistry, it was almost magical. But a couple years together, symbiotic relationships, unselfishness and a dose of solid skill in both an inside guy in Griff and outside in Jeff made it happen.

Another factor in my opinion was the added depth from the previous years. Mike Bivens was the 3rd guard his senior year. A former walk on he played admirably. The key was Marty Murray. No one intimidated him. He could get off his own shot. He physically could defend bigger guards and could give either Kurz or Harv a breather.

Recruiting wise - none of the 5 were highly sought.
Tyson started out at Aquinas. Transfered against the advice of Miller to WMU and would up being the Conference MVP.
Griff came from lil Shelby and neither Ganakas at State or Orr and UM thought much of him.
Kurz was from Ohio where both Miller and Shilts had strong connections and Harv came in under Ajac Tripplet who himself was from Gary, Indiana.
Cutter was considered soft and slow and compared to his peers in Indiana like Kent Bentson that's overstating the obvious. But in time his skills were realized and maximized as he was paired with Paul. Post Paul, Cut suffered the indignity of the rest of us left over.

Current MM recruiting. Skill guys are not that difficult. True bigs come from a smaller and smaller pool. Everyone wants to be Dirk Nodefensi or a dunking machine with no range outside of 2'.

The key is developing relationships, starting early and casting many a line into the recruiting pool. Cornell Mann was excellent at it. Clayton Bates has shown his chops. For bigs it's too easy to spot the good ones because they truely stand out. But as a mid major you still need to get in on them and stay on them. Your ROI will be poor but you only need to get one every 2-3 years that can really contribute. Once you develop a rep for being able to provide the opportunity to shine you become more of "player" in that market.

I am of the belief you can't have too many "good" bigs. That's a relative term. But this year, as an example I would have been all over Petros who went with Oakland. I believe our focus has been on Treeloff. Fine. But IMO Treeloff is no better than 50/50 coming here, possibly less.
I see Kitchell is showing up on Broncoblitz. Fine, but a bird in hand is worth two in the bush. If both the latter two go elsewhere you have notta. Having a Petros type would not be a deterence to getting either a Kitchel or Treeloff. To me the rationale is simple. I want to run a two post offense. We not only need you we want you. Whittington? "What, you afraid to compete?" "Do you think Big time U or upper echelon MM U isnt going to have competitive bigs too?"

At the end of the day I could only go with 1 post. The others would back up, no big deal. But in 2 years (with PT under their belt) They would begin to mature, ala Griff and Cutt and Flen could go to the 3 where he is athletically gifted to stay with that bunch and his skills are expanding in that direction. All outstanding!

(09-06-2009 12:17 PM)BroncoPhilly Wrote: [ -> ]

Quote:Is everyone in agreement that the 1975-76 Bronco squad of Cutter, Griffin, Tyson, Harvey, and Kursen was the greatest starting five in the history of WMU basketball?

They were probably the most talented WMU team given the level of competition of the times. They couldn't contend with recent strong teams we've had, the level of the game is vastly improved since then.

That squad would likely run the table in the MAC today, not much different than they did then.

That team was a great TEAM. No great stars except for Griffin.

I knew JT, he was in my calc class. Was not aware of his personal tragedy, that's very sad. He was a really neat guy in class-obviously a renowned athlete at the school but one who related to all of us in class from the geeks to the socially prominent. He was just the kind of guy you like to be around.

Marty Murray....as they say there is no "I" in Team. He didn't fully embrace that, as I recall.

(09-06-2009 12:27 PM)BroncoPhilly Wrote: [ -> ]That team was a great TEAM. No great stars except for Griffin.

I knew JT, he was in my calc class. Was not aware of his personal tragedy, that's very sad. He was a really neat guy in class-obviously a renowned athlete at the school but one who related to all of us in class from the geeks to the socially prominent. He was just the kind of guy you like to be around.

Marty Murray....as they say there is no "I" in Team. He didn't fully embrace that, as I recall.

Griff was a "star" in that he made it successfully in the NBA. Those not in the know would laugh at his 10 ppg and 10 rpg and scoff that hundreds of others faired much better.

Jeff was every bit the star Paul was. League MVP says it all. Add to it that he outplayed head to head Tatum of Marquette (1st rdr for Lakers) in the NCAA regional semi's and that a top tier NBA club looking for one guy expended a draft pick on him points to that fact. Griff was a 6th rounder for an expansion club. No knock but over time some apparently lost that factual perspective.

Remember I am Marty Murray you dofus! Just because I wrote in the 3rd person means nothin!

You could well be Marty Murray, GB. Everything fits. But this is a forum so I'm going to have to lay my bones on the table for everyone to see.

I was at WMU during that season, I followed the teams prospects closely, I watched that game against Marquette! MM was launching shots from the cheap seats and that was all she wrote.

If you ARE MM would you mind explaining to us why you were firing 25 foot air balls at the basket just after the ball was worked across midcourt instead of working for an open shot? I'd be very curious to hear your explanation on that!

(09-06-2009 01:01 PM)BroncoPhilly Wrote: [ -> ]You could well be Marty Murray, GB. Everything fits. But this is a forum so I'm going to have to lay my bones on the table for everyone to see.

I was at WMU during that season, I followed the teams prospects closely, I watched that game against Marquette! MM was launching shots from the cheap seats and that was all she wrote.

If you ARE MM would you mind explaining to us why you were firing 25 foot air balls at the basket just after the ball was worked across midcourt instead of working for an open shot? I'd be very curious to hear your explanation on that!

We have had this discussion before. By your own admission you were in a Stroh's haze with some frat bros so I can understand your memories recollection. Stroth's fog with black and white TV was renown for that.

They weren't 25 foot air balls. They were 18' clankers. But all with in the offense.

In retrospect, Lloyd Walton, another Chicago kid and I were into it. I admit, he got into my head. We picked up from where we left off on the playground.

But I wasnt going to sub myself out. That was in someone elses hands.
You may want to ask him?

Quote:They weren't 25 foot air balls. They were 18' clankers.

I may have been enjoying some beverages in the basement of Spindler Hall with 100 other viewers (not a frat house) but you can hear 'woosh!' as opposed to 'clang!' even on a black and white TV.

The sanguine point being we needed to work the ball to the best shot, not launch them from the concession stands 2 seconds across the midcourt line.

IF you're MM then I suggest you might be seeing that game through a selective lens of convenient memory. Hey, I remember it like it was yesterday! That wound has never healed!

My oldest brother -- about 22 at the time -- always said Cutter and Tyson were the guys he liked off that team (and made the point about the expansion landing spot). Don't remember who my middle brother, 13 at the time and the ballplayer, preferred.

I know for me Marty Murray was the very first guy I ever saw that put real "stars" in my 7-year-old eyes. GB no wonder I like you, you're by far my favorite Bronco of all time!

BP's comments, even 34 yrs later, capture the fan perspective and what's not so attractive about it to this day. I remember reading the next day's Gazette story, with the hurt still in my throat over the loss my team suffered, and being upset with some of its slant. Those guys finished in the top-10 of the final poll (correct?). A group of unsung players, through hard work, talent and chemistry, catch lightening in a bottle and take a whole community on an incredible ride. But BP remembers who he believes deserves blame.

I'm guilty of the same thing with the 2003 squad, although hopefully it wouldn't be the case if they'd won two games and then lost to a team that in the future would win the whole thing. You know what I remember from the '03 team? How the moment was too big for everyone except Mike.

But think about this -- Because of that 75-76 team, a little kid with hoops in his blood had his first real experience with a team that didn't include Magic, Zeke, or a Godforsaken Wolverine. And the reason for that experience? Yes the wins helped but they weren't what wrapped me up and held me in a freakin cocoon of basketball for three glorious months in my seventh year. Nope. The long hair and the mustached guys? Nope (just looked like my brother who tortured me for fun). It was Murray who I identified with. He was the reason that team was my first, the way the 69-70 Knicks were for my brothers, or the 79 Spartans were for so many of my friends.

Thanks GB, for starting me on a life-long journey trying to recapture that feeling. It's never happened, but its been fun none-the-less.

Quote:I am of the belief you can't have too many "good" bigs. That's a relative term. But this year, as an example I would have been all over Petros who went with Oakland. I believe our focus has been on Treeloff. Fine. But IMO Treeloff is no better than 50/50 coming here, possibly less.

From what I've heard (good souces) Petros was ours for the taking. Same source called him soft, and a project. More like 70/30 for Western in the case of Treeloff, and 50/50 or less in the case of Kitchell.

Quote:From what I've heard (good souces) Petros was ours for the taking.

Well, that's a god damned shame. If he stars at Oakland I will not let this forum forget it. I chit you not.

Phil, you talk out of both sides of your mouth when it comes to recruiting. On one hand you said earlier today that we need to get better players in football. And on this thread your concerned that Hawk didn't jump on a "project," but instead is banking on some players who can make an instant impact.

If the objective was to get players who desperately wanted to come here we could sign 10 guys tomorrow and take last place for four years after that. There's little room for error in basketball and it's easier to evaluate talent. With only a handful to give you better not give 3 of 4 to guys with potential or projects.

Quote:Phil, you talk out of both sides of your mouth when it comes to recruiting. On one hand you said earlier today that we need to get better players in football. And on this thread your concerned that Hawk didn't jump on a "project," but instead is banking on some players who can make an instant impact.

Can the omnipotence, Dip. You have one thought on Petros, GB has another. You think he's a 'project', others think otherwise.

I'm only noting the guy ended up going to Oakland after we showed ZERO interest in him. As for Hawks, which players is he working on bringing in that are the 'instant impact' players you refer to?

Why don't you just admit for all your basketball knowledge your judgement on talent in recruits is no better than a crap shoot? Even coaches who know a hell of a lot more than you admit that it is. Get over yourself.

Quote:You have one thought on Petros

Yes, but mine are backed by people who are paid to evaluate talent and who have seen him play on several occasions (against D-1) talent. Neither I nor you have seen him play. Who am I to believe?

Treloff is pretty much a can't miss Joe Reitz/John Bowler MAC caliber center.

99% of the centers who come to the MAC are projects. That's because the skilled ones have a half dozen high major offers. Treloff is one of those guys who's not a project, but he's not a high major either.

On the bright side, if Whittington isn't playing in Lawrence there's a good chance we never get a sniff at him.

Quote:Remember I am Marty Murray you dofus!

Too funny, but for those of us who were big fans then, this is quite the surprise. We've speculated and wondered out loud (as loud as you can on a web board) who was behind gbl and his "different style" prose.

Wow, I used to head up to Kalamazoo with my uncle to watch that 75-76 team play, it made me a Bronco for life and all I could think about was going to WMU.

MM really could handle himself against tough pressure, nothing was too tough for him and he would break a press down like it wasn't there and all of a sudden it was an odd man break.

Having said that, those guys from that great team came to Read (was not was) to watch an OhioU game for a ten year anniversary game, very obnoxious group sitting there in the stands with all their hair hooting on the ref and players, hate to think that the most gracious GBL was amongst them.

Oakland must be doing something right in evaluating talent, they beat us everytime they play us. Pains me to say it, but there it is.

(09-07-2009 12:02 AM)DesertBronco Wrote: [ -> ]

Quote:Remember I am Marty Murray you dofus!

Too funny, but for those of us who were big fans then, this is quite the surprise. We've speculated and wondered out loud (as loud as you can on a web board) who was behind gbl and his "different style" prose.

Wow, I used to head up to Kalamazoo with my uncle to watch that 75-76 team play, it made me a Bronco for life and all I could think about was going to WMU.

MM really could handle himself against tough pressure, nothing was too tough for him and he would break a press down like it wasn't there and all of a sudden it was an odd man break.

Having said that, those guys from that great team came to Read (was not was) to watch an OhioU game for a ten year anniversary game, very obnoxious group sitting there in the stands with all their hair hooting on the ref and players, hate to think that the most gracious GBL was amongst them.

Alright, before this gets out of control let me set things straight. It was fun for 12 hours or so but Jo Jo is out there somewhere and having now jerked a knot in Philly's tail I don't want Jo Jo worrying about identity theft.

I is not Marty Murray. Who I am is irrelevant, literally and figuratively. Everything I have shared is factual and first hand. The only exception to that is about eating Crow. The only 3 fowl I consume are chicken, pheasant and frogs. I do however, like to adorn my front door with Indian corn. I think it's way cool. Don't you?:python:

Now for something completely different.

Quote:The only 3 fowl I consume are chicken, pheasant and frogs.

I have to respect the man that rejects Turkey!

Nope sorry, I'm running with this, going to get some good mileage gbl.