The democrats have went about this all wrong, unless the town halls are a smoke scree and they are going to flaunt their power in the face of America's growing dissatisfaction.
Obama's approval rating is now below 50% largely due to the growing distrust of what Obamacare means. 50% of Americans oppose the current proposals for healthcare "reform" while only 40% approve. 40% STRONGLY disapprove of the current proposals while only 27% strongly approve. A majority also want NO public option!!!
Knowing this the democrats continue to tells us what healthcare reform is and is not while anyone that wants can see what is means by reading the 1,018 pages of HR 3200. All the bad things people fear are in HR 3200 so until a new bill is written how can the democrats tell us anything and expect us to believe them? It seems to me what the democrats need to do is kill HR 3200, and write a new bill. Instead of a demand for an immediate vote on a new bill, have town halls to prove their "reform bill" is everything they promise and no surprises, no public option, no government benefits advisory panel, no coverage for illegals.
My concern is these bozo's like Barney the Clown know that a majority in their district oppose HR 3200, but they are going to vote to pass it anyway, because they have divine wisdom that lets them determine what is best for each individual in America.
(08-21-2009 04:58 PM)THE NC Herd Fan Wrote: [ -> ]The democrats have went about this all wrong, unless the town halls are a smoke scree and they are going to flaunt their power in the face of America's growing dissatisfaction.
Obama's approval rating is now below 50% largely due to the growing distrust of what Obamacare means. 50% of Americans oppose the current proposals for healthcare "reform" while only 40% approve. 40% STRONGLY disapprove of the current proposals while only 27% strongly approve. A majority also want NO public option!!!
Knowing this the democrats continue to tells us what healthcare reform is and is not while anyone that wants can see what is means by reading the 1,018 pages of HR 3200. All the bad things people fear are in HR 3200 so until a new bill is written how can the democrats tell us anything and expect us to believe them? It seems to me what the democrats need to do is kill HR 3200, and write a new bill. Instead of a demand for an immediate vote on a new bill, have town halls to prove their "reform bill" is everything they promise and no surprises, no public option, no government benefits advisory panel, no coverage for illegals.
My concern is these bozo's like Barney the Clown know that a majority in their district oppose HR 3200, but they are going to vote to pass it anyway, because they have divine wisdom that lets them determine what is best for each individual in America.
If the public actually knew what was being proposed the polls would be much higher. But with the loud mouth Republicans in the town halls, the actual proposals were not getting through. All we got was rightwing psychos spewing Nazi, socialist, communist, death panels and government funding of abortions.
(08-22-2009 02:50 AM)RobertN Wrote: [ -> ]If the public actually knew what was being proposed the polls would be much higher. But with the loud mouth Republicans in the town halls, the actual proposals were not getting through. All we got was rightwing psychos spewing Nazi, socialist, communist, death panels and government funding of abortions.
I have asked you Robert, since YOU have read this entire Bill and you Understand Every Word, Nuance, and Jot & Tittle of it, to explain it all too us, but for some reason you just won't do it.
I mean this should be fairly easy for a man of your Sharp Lawyering Skills to break this 1100 Page Sucker Right Down to the Bleedin' Ground Son !!!!!
JUST STFU you little retarded half-wit .... if you can not see how bad and how dangerous this is, then just Stay Out of the Topics that Deal with it .... no one wants your Stupid 10 word BS statements that only go to show you eat out of Father Obama's Ass like it is Mom's Apple Pie.
"WE THE PEOPLE" DO NOT WANT THIS AND "WE THE PEOPLE" BY GOD, and
NOT BY Father Obama's ALLAH,
""WE"" HAVE SPOKEN you SPORK !!!!!!
.
(08-22-2009 02:50 AM)RobertN Wrote: [ -> ] (08-21-2009 04:58 PM)THE NC Herd Fan Wrote: [ -> ]The democrats have went about this all wrong, unless the town halls are a smoke scree and they are going to flaunt their power in the face of America's growing dissatisfaction.
Obama's approval rating is now below 50% largely due to the growing distrust of what Obamacare means. 50% of Americans oppose the current proposals for healthcare "reform" while only 40% approve. 40% STRONGLY disapprove of the current proposals while only 27% strongly approve. A majority also want NO public option!!!
Knowing this the democrats continue to tells us what healthcare reform is and is not while anyone that wants can see what is means by reading the 1,018 pages of HR 3200. All the bad things people fear are in HR 3200 so until a new bill is written how can the democrats tell us anything and expect us to believe them? It seems to me what the democrats need to do is kill HR 3200, and write a new bill. Instead of a demand for an immediate vote on a new bill, have town halls to prove their "reform bill" is everything they promise and no surprises, no public option, no government benefits advisory panel, no coverage for illegals.
My concern is these bozo's like Barney the Clown know that a majority in their district oppose HR 3200, but they are going to vote to pass it anyway, because they have divine wisdom that lets them determine what is best for each individual in America.
If the public actually knew what was being proposed the polls would be much higher. But with the loud mouth Republicans in the town halls, the actual proposals were not getting through. All we got was rightwing psychos spewing Nazi, socialist, communist, death panels and government funding of abortions.
What's being proposed?!? The only thing the public has to go in IS HR 3200!!! HR 3200 is nothing more than a Socialist manifesto so why would any RATIONAL person believe the democrats when they make promises that are different than the bill they wanted passed in early August?
I don't understand why it needs to be so long. Can't it just say "the government will provide no-cost health-care funded by taxes"?
Maybe I'm still drunk from last night or something. It says nothing about being mandatory, nothing hinting towards 'death panels', etc. It eliminates every dispute folks have had with the bill. (except the whole part where the govt. is stealing your money. But it's not like we've bitched about that with any other, more useless, law.)
(08-22-2009 07:26 AM)Raider_ATO Wrote: [ -> ]I don't understand why it needs to be so long. Can't it just say "the government will provide no-cost health-care funded by taxes"?
Maybe I'm still drunk from last night or something. It says nothing about being mandatory, nothing hinting towards 'death panels', etc. It eliminates every dispute folks have had with the bill. (except the whole part where the govt. is stealing your money. But it's not like we've bitched about that with any other, more useless, law.)
There is a stated requirement for a "Benefits Advisory Committee" in HR 3200, members will mostly be presidential appointees. Said committee's stated role is to decide what benefits will be available and who they will be available for, with cost effectiveness (additional months of life v. cost) being one of the criteria for deciding benefits. Obviously some procedures that benefit the elderly or seriously ill may add only a few months so these wouldn't be cost effective and likely not covered per the "Benefits Advisory Committee". They aren't crazy enough to openly call this committee a death panel.
None.
The current gang in power is going to exert its force. What we say is irrelevant. They will pass this and government will expand again. It is the nature of the beast.
(08-22-2009 04:22 AM)Tripster Wrote: [ -> ] (08-22-2009 02:50 AM)RobertN Wrote: [ -> ]If the public actually knew what was being proposed the polls would be much higher. But with the loud mouth Republicans in the town halls, the actual proposals were not getting through. All we got was rightwing psychos spewing Nazi, socialist, communist, death panels and government funding of abortions.
I have asked you Robert, since YOU have read this entire Bill and you Understand Every Word, Nuance, and Jot & Tittle of it, to explain it all too us, but for some reason you just won't do it.
I mean this should be fairly easy for a man of your Sharp Lawyering Skills to break this 1100 Page Sucker Right Down to the Bleedin' Ground Son !!!!!
JUST STFU you little retarded half-wit .... if you can not see how bad and how dangerous this is, then just Stay Out of the Topics that Deal with it .... no one wants your Stupid 10 word BS statements that only go to show you eat out of Father Obama's Ass like it is Mom's Apple Pie.
"WE THE PEOPLE" DO NOT WANT THIS AND "WE THE PEOPLE" BY GOD, and NOT BY Father Obama's ALLAH, ""WE"" HAVE SPOKEN you SPORK !!!!!!
.
So you have read all 1100 pages? I don't think so. Dangerous?
Yeah, Obama is out to kill old people and unborn babies with this reform. Get a clue.
(08-22-2009 05:17 AM)THE NC Herd Fan Wrote: [ -> ] (08-22-2009 02:50 AM)RobertN Wrote: [ -> ] (08-21-2009 04:58 PM)THE NC Herd Fan Wrote: [ -> ]The democrats have went about this all wrong, unless the town halls are a smoke scree and they are going to flaunt their power in the face of America's growing dissatisfaction.
Obama's approval rating is now below 50% largely due to the growing distrust of what Obamacare means. 50% of Americans oppose the current proposals for healthcare "reform" while only 40% approve. 40% STRONGLY disapprove of the current proposals while only 27% strongly approve. A majority also want NO public option!!!
Knowing this the democrats continue to tells us what healthcare reform is and is not while anyone that wants can see what is means by reading the 1,018 pages of HR 3200. All the bad things people fear are in HR 3200 so until a new bill is written how can the democrats tell us anything and expect us to believe them? It seems to me what the democrats need to do is kill HR 3200, and write a new bill. Instead of a demand for an immediate vote on a new bill, have town halls to prove their "reform bill" is everything they promise and no surprises, no public option, no government benefits advisory panel, no coverage for illegals.
My concern is these bozo's like Barney the Clown know that a majority in their district oppose HR 3200, but they are going to vote to pass it anyway, because they have divine wisdom that lets them determine what is best for each individual in America.
If the public actually knew what was being proposed the polls would be much higher. But with the loud mouth Republicans in the town halls, the actual proposals were not getting through. All we got was rightwing psychos spewing Nazi, socialist, communist, death panels and government funding of abortions.
What's being proposed?!? The only thing the public has to go in IS HR 3200!!! HR 3200 is nothing more than a Socialist manifesto so why would any RATIONAL person believe the democrats when they make promises that are different than the bill they wanted passed in early August?
Oh, I see. You have read the whole thing too. Oops. I forgot that isn't possible. You went to Marshall Junior College.
(08-22-2009 07:26 AM)Raider_ATO Wrote: [ -> ]I don't understand why it needs to be so long. Can't it just say "the government will provide no-cost health-care funded by taxes"?
Maybe I'm still drunk from last night or something. It says nothing about being mandatory, nothing hinting towards 'death panels', etc. It eliminates every dispute folks have had with the bill. (except the whole part where the govt. is stealing your money. But it's not like we've bitched about that with any other, more useless, law.)
You must still be drunk because that isn't even close to what it says. You really need to lay off the moonshine.
Robert, you don't absolutly have to read the whole thing. Just the relevant pages. And those pages have been posted repeatedly. When it says x, y, and z, you can't just keep repeteing that it doesn't say x, y, and z. The information has been provided to you. You can read it and see for yourself, you can ignore it, or you can read it and lie about what you read. Seems to be you have chosen the latter.
You are like those muzzies on the forum some of us used to frequent. You could quote the koran and give chapter and verse, and they would just repete over and over that it wasn't in the koran.
(08-22-2009 12:58 PM)RobertN Wrote: [ -> ]So you have read all 1100 pages? I don't think so. Dangerous? Yeah, Obama is out to kill old people and unborn babies with this reform. Get a clue.
I have read all 1018 pages.
And I am an attorney.
While HR 3200 does not specifically mandate killing old people and unborn babies, it does contain some provisions which will most likely have the practical effect of bringing about precisely those things. Depending upon your point of view, those might or might not be good things; but to pretend that HR 3200 does not make them far more likely to occur is to ignore, negligently or intentionally, a major impact of the bill. If you doubt this, I can explain it pretty easily. And I'll give you a hint--it's not the end of life counseling that will give rise to the "death panels,"
(08-22-2009 01:43 PM)Owl 69/70/75 Wrote: [ -> ] (08-22-2009 12:58 PM)RobertN Wrote: [ -> ]So you have read all 1100 pages? I don't think so. Dangerous? Yeah, Obama is out to kill old people and unborn babies with this reform. Get a clue.
I have read all 1018 pages.
And I am an attorney.
While HR 3200 does not specifically mandate killing old people and unborn babies, it does contain some provisions which will most likely have the practical effect of bringing about precisely those things. Depending upon your point of view, those might or might not be good things; but to pretend that HR 3200 does not make them far more likely to occur is to ignore, negligently or intentionally, a major impact of the bill. If you doubt this, I can explain it pretty easily. And I'll give you a hint--it's not the end of life counseling that will give rise to the "death panels,"
Please show me where it says either of those things(at least the parts where you think it will "have the effect of bringing precisely those things".
(08-22-2009 07:47 AM)THE NC Herd Fan Wrote: [ -> ] (08-22-2009 07:26 AM)Raider_ATO Wrote: [ -> ]I don't understand why it needs to be so long. Can't it just say "the government will provide no-cost health-care funded by taxes"?
Maybe I'm still drunk from last night or something. It says nothing about being mandatory, nothing hinting towards 'death panels', etc. It eliminates every dispute folks have had with the bill. (except the whole part where the govt. is stealing your money. But it's not like we've bitched about that with any other, more useless, law.)
There is a stated requirement for a "Benefits Advisory Committee" in HR 3200, members will mostly be presidential appointees. Said committee's stated role is to decide what benefits will be available and who they will be available for, with cost effectiveness (additional months of life v. cost) being one of the criteria for deciding benefits. Obviously some procedures that benefit the elderly or seriously ill may add only a few months so these wouldn't be cost effective and likely not covered per the "Benefits Advisory Committee". They aren't crazy enough to openly call this committee a death panel.
I was talking about my 1-sentence plan. It says "We're gonna give an option for health-care that everyone can use if they want to. It probably won't be as good as a private plan for most, but it's better than having nothing."
Why do we need 1,000 pages. If a bill can't be conveyed in 5-6 then what good is it?
(08-22-2009 03:36 PM)Raider_ATO Wrote: [ -> ] (08-22-2009 07:47 AM)THE NC Herd Fan Wrote: [ -> ] (08-22-2009 07:26 AM)Raider_ATO Wrote: [ -> ]I don't understand why it needs to be so long. Can't it just say "the government will provide no-cost health-care funded by taxes"?
Maybe I'm still drunk from last night or something. It says nothing about being mandatory, nothing hinting towards 'death panels', etc. It eliminates every dispute folks have had with the bill. (except the whole part where the govt. is stealing your money. But it's not like we've bitched about that with any other, more useless, law.)
There is a stated requirement for a "Benefits Advisory Committee" in HR 3200, members will mostly be presidential appointees. Said committee's stated role is to decide what benefits will be available and who they will be available for, with cost effectiveness (additional months of life v. cost) being one of the criteria for deciding benefits. Obviously some procedures that benefit the elderly or seriously ill may add only a few months so these wouldn't be cost effective and likely not covered per the "Benefits Advisory Committee". They aren't crazy enough to openly call this committee a death panel.
I was talking about my 1-sentence plan. It says "We're gonna give an option for health-care that everyone can use if they want to. It probably won't be as good as a private plan for most, but it's better than having nothing."
Why do we need 1,000 pages. If a bill can't be conveyed in 5-6 then what good is it?
I agree absolutely 1,000 pages are to give government power over lots of things. When a bill with 1,000 pages creates lots of new government agencies with vague direction on what the will do it sets up for a major abuse of power.
(08-22-2009 01:02 PM)RobertN Wrote: [ -> ] (08-22-2009 05:17 AM)THE NC Herd Fan Wrote: [ -> ] (08-22-2009 02:50 AM)RobertN Wrote: [ -> ] (08-21-2009 04:58 PM)THE NC Herd Fan Wrote: [ -> ]The democrats have went about this all wrong, unless the town halls are a smoke scree and they are going to flaunt their power in the face of America's growing dissatisfaction.
Obama's approval rating is now below 50% largely due to the growing distrust of what Obamacare means. 50% of Americans oppose the current proposals for healthcare "reform" while only 40% approve. 40% STRONGLY disapprove of the current proposals while only 27% strongly approve. A majority also want NO public option!!!
Knowing this the democrats continue to tells us what healthcare reform is and is not while anyone that wants can see what is means by reading the 1,018 pages of HR 3200. All the bad things people fear are in HR 3200 so until a new bill is written how can the democrats tell us anything and expect us to believe them? It seems to me what the democrats need to do is kill HR 3200, and write a new bill. Instead of a demand for an immediate vote on a new bill, have town halls to prove their "reform bill" is everything they promise and no surprises, no public option, no government benefits advisory panel, no coverage for illegals.
My concern is these bozo's like Barney the Clown know that a majority in their district oppose HR 3200, but they are going to vote to pass it anyway, because they have divine wisdom that lets them determine what is best for each individual in America.
If the public actually knew what was being proposed the polls would be much higher. But with the loud mouth Republicans in the town halls, the actual proposals were not getting through. All we got was rightwing psychos spewing Nazi, socialist, communist, death panels and government funding of abortions.
What's being proposed?!? The only thing the public has to go in IS HR 3200!!! HR 3200 is nothing more than a Socialist manifesto so why would any RATIONAL person believe the democrats when they make promises that are different than the bill they wanted passed in early August?
Oh, I see. You have read the whole thing too. Oops. I forgot that isn't possible. You went to Marshall Junior College.
I haven't read it all, don't need to. Several people have read it and have provided section and page numbers of all the bad things in HR 3200, now I know democrats love double talk, but I seriously doubt they create a "Benefits Advisory Committee" in one section and eliminate it in another. Better a graduate of MU than to live my life in an Ignorant stupor like you Robbie. Robbie please enlighten us by sharing sections from HR 3200 that prove us wrong.
(08-22-2009 02:38 PM)RobertN Wrote: [ -> ] (08-22-2009 01:43 PM)Owl 69/70/75 Wrote: [ -> ] (08-22-2009 12:58 PM)RobertN Wrote: [ -> ]So you have read all 1100 pages? I don't think so. Dangerous? Yeah, Obama is out to kill old people and unborn babies with this reform. Get a clue.
I have read all 1018 pages.
And I am an attorney.
While HR 3200 does not specifically mandate killing old people and unborn babies, it does contain some provisions which will most likely have the practical effect of bringing about precisely those things. Depending upon your point of view, those might or might not be good things; but to pretend that HR 3200 does not make them far more likely to occur is to ignore, negligently or intentionally, a major impact of the bill. If you doubt this, I can explain it pretty easily. And I'll give you a hint--it's not the end of life counseling that will give rise to the "death panels,"
Please show me where it says either of those things(at least the parts where you think it will "have the effect of bringing precisely those things".
I would be happy to do so, but I don't really need to, because it's already been pointed out in other posts on this thread.
Except for one thing, and that is that those on the left say correctly that this bill does not mention abortion. What they misleadingly fail to mention is that current case law says that abortion is covered under health plans unless there is explicit exclusionary language. Republicans tried to insert such language in an amendment that was voted down. So the bill as currently written, in the context of current case law, would provide for funding abortions.
This is not a huge issue for me. As on most social issues, I take the libertarian position. Abortion should not be illegal, but there should be no government funding for it. So I am not happy with this, but this is not my major concern.
As for a federal takeover and single-payer, Obama has been very clear that he favors single-payer and has acknowledged that it will come about as the result of transition of 10-20 years. Given those facts, if Obama did not see this as a step in that transition, why does he favor it so strongly?
I think this bill will be disastrous. I think the democrats' plan is for it to be disastrous. Then they can step in and say, "the problem is that the government wasn't in control, so give the government control and that will solve the problem."
(08-22-2009 03:50 PM)THE NC Herd Fan Wrote: [ -> ] (08-22-2009 01:02 PM)RobertN Wrote: [ -> ] (08-22-2009 05:17 AM)THE NC Herd Fan Wrote: [ -> ] (08-22-2009 02:50 AM)RobertN Wrote: [ -> ] (08-21-2009 04:58 PM)THE NC Herd Fan Wrote: [ -> ]The democrats have went about this all wrong, unless the town halls are a smoke scree and they are going to flaunt their power in the face of America's growing dissatisfaction.
Obama's approval rating is now below 50% largely due to the growing distrust of what Obamacare means. 50% of Americans oppose the current proposals for healthcare "reform" while only 40% approve. 40% STRONGLY disapprove of the current proposals while only 27% strongly approve. A majority also want NO public option!!!
Knowing this the democrats continue to tells us what healthcare reform is and is not while anyone that wants can see what is means by reading the 1,018 pages of HR 3200. All the bad things people fear are in HR 3200 so until a new bill is written how can the democrats tell us anything and expect us to believe them? It seems to me what the democrats need to do is kill HR 3200, and write a new bill. Instead of a demand for an immediate vote on a new bill, have town halls to prove their "reform bill" is everything they promise and no surprises, no public option, no government benefits advisory panel, no coverage for illegals.
My concern is these bozo's like Barney the Clown know that a majority in their district oppose HR 3200, but they are going to vote to pass it anyway, because they have divine wisdom that lets them determine what is best for each individual in America.
If the public actually knew what was being proposed the polls would be much higher. But with the loud mouth Republicans in the town halls, the actual proposals were not getting through. All we got was rightwing psychos spewing Nazi, socialist, communist, death panels and government funding of abortions.
What's being proposed?!? The only thing the public has to go in IS HR 3200!!! HR 3200 is nothing more than a Socialist manifesto so why would any RATIONAL person believe the democrats when they make promises that are different than the bill they wanted passed in early August?
Oh, I see. You have read the whole thing too. Oops. I forgot that isn't possible. You went to Marshall Junior College.
I haven't read it all, don't need to. Several people have read it and have provided section and page numbers of all the bad things in HR 3200, now I know democrats love double talk, but I seriously doubt they create a "Benefits Advisory Committee" in one section and eliminate it in another. Better a graduate of MU than to live my life in an Ignorant stupor like you Robbie. Robbie please enlighten us by sharing sections from HR 3200 that prove us wrong.
What you read was opinion and spin. Try actually READING it and make YOUR own decision of what it says.
(08-22-2009 06:02 PM)RobertN Wrote: [ -> ] (08-22-2009 03:50 PM)THE NC Herd Fan Wrote: [ -> ] (08-22-2009 01:02 PM)RobertN Wrote: [ -> ] (08-22-2009 05:17 AM)THE NC Herd Fan Wrote: [ -> ] (08-22-2009 02:50 AM)RobertN Wrote: [ -> ] (08-21-2009 04:58 PM)THE NC Herd Fan Wrote: [ -> ]The democrats have went about this all wrong, unless the town halls are a smoke scree and they are going to flaunt their power in the face of America's growing dissatisfaction.
Obama's approval rating is now below 50% largely due to the growing distrust of what Obamacare means. 50% of Americans oppose the current proposals for healthcare "reform" while only 40% approve. 40% STRONGLY disapprove of the current proposals while only 27% strongly approve. A majority also want NO public option!!!
Knowing this the democrats continue to tells us what healthcare reform is and is not while anyone that wants can see what is means by reading the 1,018 pages of HR 3200. All the bad things people fear are in HR 3200 so until a new bill is written how can the democrats tell us anything and expect us to believe them? It seems to me what the democrats need to do is kill HR 3200, and write a new bill. Instead of a demand for an immediate vote on a new bill, have town halls to prove their "reform bill" is everything they promise and no surprises, no public option, no government benefits advisory panel, no coverage for illegals.
My concern is these bozo's like Barney the Clown know that a majority in their district oppose HR 3200, but they are going to vote to pass it anyway, because they have divine wisdom that lets them determine what is best for each individual in America.
If the public actually knew what was being proposed the polls would be much higher. But with the loud mouth Republicans in the town halls, the actual proposals were not getting through. All we got was rightwing psychos spewing Nazi, socialist, communist, death panels and government funding of abortions.
What's being proposed?!? The only thing the public has to go in IS HR 3200!!! HR 3200 is nothing more than a Socialist manifesto so why would any RATIONAL person believe the democrats when they make promises that are different than the bill they wanted passed in early August?
Oh, I see. You have read the whole thing too. Oops. I forgot that isn't possible. You went to Marshall Junior College.
I haven't read it all, don't need to. Several people have read it and have provided section and page numbers of all the bad things in HR 3200, now I know democrats love double talk, but I seriously doubt they create a "Benefits Advisory Committee" in one section and eliminate it in another. Better a graduate of MU than to live my life in an Ignorant stupor like you Robbie. Robbie please enlighten us by sharing sections from HR 3200 that prove us wrong.
What you read was opinion and spin. Try actually READING it and make YOUR own decision of what it says.
I'd suggest you do the same fool but you're too lazy to do so and too stupid to understand it if you did.
Fool.
(08-22-2009 05:25 PM)Owl 69/70/75 Wrote: [ -> ] (08-22-2009 02:38 PM)RobertN Wrote: [ -> ] (08-22-2009 01:43 PM)Owl 69/70/75 Wrote: [ -> ] (08-22-2009 12:58 PM)RobertN Wrote: [ -> ]So you have read all 1100 pages? I don't think so. Dangerous? Yeah, Obama is out to kill old people and unborn babies with this reform. Get a clue.
I have read all 1018 pages.
And I am an attorney.
While HR 3200 does not specifically mandate killing old people and unborn babies, it does contain some provisions which will most likely have the practical effect of bringing about precisely those things. Depending upon your point of view, those might or might not be good things; but to pretend that HR 3200 does not make them far more likely to occur is to ignore, negligently or intentionally, a major impact of the bill. If you doubt this, I can explain it pretty easily. And I'll give you a hint--it's not the end of life counseling that will give rise to the "death panels,"
Please show me where it says either of those things(at least the parts where you think it will "have the effect of bringing precisely those things".
I would be happy to do so, but I don't really need to, because it's already been pointed out in other posts on this thread.
Except for one thing, and that is that those on the left say correctly that this bill does not mention abortion. What they misleadingly fail to mention is that current case law says that abortion is covered under health plans unless there is explicit exclusionary language. Republicans tried to insert such language in an amendment that was voted down. So the bill as currently written, in the context of current case law, would provide for funding abortions.
This is not a huge issue for me. As on most social issues, I take the libertarian position. Abortion should not be illegal, but there should be no government funding for it. So I am not happy with this, but this is not my major concern.
As for a federal takeover and single-payer, Obama has been very clear that he favors single-payer and has acknowledged that it will come about as the result of transition of 10-20 years. Given those facts, if Obama did not see this as a step in that transition, why does he favor it so strongly?
I think this bill will be disastrous. I think the democrats' plan is for it to be disastrous. Then they can step in and say, "the problem is that the government wasn't in control, so give the government control and that will solve the problem."
Yes, he does favor single-payer. He may think that it is a start to government healthcare but guess what? It is up to the PEOPLE to dertermine if they want the country to go that direction through elections. I actually agree with him and think that in 10-20 years(closer to 20 is my guess) the country will be wanting to go in that direction. THe baby boomers-a good portion of which make up the Republican base- will mostly be dead(yeah, Obama will have killed most of them) and the younger people in this country tend to be more liberal which means that it is more likely that such a plan will pass in the future. Of course, as with everything, nothing is certain.