CSNbbs

http://www.breakpoint.org/commentaries/1...ome-school

Quote:One study by the Fraser Institute in Vancouver indicated that homeschoolers tend to be more mature, happy, and better socialized than their peers.

They also boast better academic performance.
...

Many states have discovered that homeschooling is saving taxpayer dollars. Nevada homeschoolers save the state education budget between $24 and $34 million in expenses per year. And one estimate places North Carolina’s savings at a whopping $546 million per year.

I wonder if the fact that the Fraser Institute is aligned with far-right politicos in Canada has anything to do with the results of their studies.

* * *

"The Fraser Institute's list of Senior Fellows includes Tom Flanagan, originally of Ottawa (Illinois), who is a professor of political science at the University of Calgary. Tom Flanagan was campaign manager to Prime Minister Stephen Harper when he headed Canada's newly formed Conservative Party in federal elections in 2004, and then again in 2005, when the Conservatives won a minority in government.

Other senior fellows of the institute have been deeply involved in political activity. Preston Manning is the founder of the right-wing Reform Party in Canada, which later merged with the Progressive Conservative Party to form the new Conservative Party, led by Stephen Harper who became Prime Minister in 2006. Former Conservative Premier of the province of Ontario, Mike Harris, is also a fellow at the Fraser Institute."

(08-05-2009 10:43 AM)wvucrazed Wrote: [ -> ]I wonder if the fact that the Fraser Institute is aligned with far-right politicos in Canada has anything to do with the results of their studies.

* * *

"The Fraser Institute's list of Senior Fellows includes Tom Flanagan, originally of Ottawa (Illinois), who is a professor of political science at the University of Calgary. Tom Flanagan was campaign manager to Prime Minister Stephen Harper when he headed Canada's newly formed Conservative Party in federal elections in 2004, and then again in 2005, when the Conservatives won a minority in government.

Other senior fellows of the institute have been deeply involved in political activity. Preston Manning is the founder of the right-wing Reform Party in Canada, which later merged with the Progressive Conservative Party to form the new Conservative Party, led by Stephen Harper who became Prime Minister in 2006. Former Conservative Premier of the province of Ontario, Mike Harris, is also a fellow at the Fraser Institute."

I wonder if you willfully disregard studies from groups aligned with the far left? (Note that is rhetorical, I know you don't.)

(08-05-2009 10:50 AM)Ninerfan1 Wrote: [ -> ]I wonder if you willfully disregard studies from groups aligned with the far left? (Note that is rhetorical, I know you don't.)

Not at all... that would be foolish.

(08-05-2009 10:56 AM)wvucrazed Wrote: [ -> ]

(08-05-2009 10:50 AM)Ninerfan1 Wrote: [ -> ]I wonder if you willfully disregard studies from groups aligned with the far left? (Note that is rhetorical, I know you don't.)

Not at all... that would be foolish.

At least you're an honest hypocrite.

The question really boils down to...is the current public school system in the US failing....

The system itself...yes
Some individual schools and school districts are fantastic, but others are just horrific.

As many other parents know, the parents should be driving force behind their child's education. Homeschooling takes that philosophy and magnifies it.

(08-05-2009 10:57 AM)Ninerfan1 Wrote: [ -> ]At least you're an honest hypocrite.

I didn't say disregard anything.

But if you think that the political persuasions and ties of these groups don't impact their studies then you are hopelessly naive.

(08-05-2009 10:43 AM)wvucrazed Wrote: [ -> ]I wonder if the fact that the Fraser Institute is aligned with far-right politicos in Canada has anything to do with the results of their studies.
* * *
"The Fraser Institute's list of Senior Fellows includes Tom Flanagan, originally of Ottawa (Illinois), who is a professor of political science at the University of Calgary. Tom Flanagan was campaign manager to Prime Minister Stephen Harper when he headed Canada's newly formed Conservative Party in federal elections in 2004, and then again in 2005, when the Conservatives won a minority in government.
Other senior fellows of the institute have been deeply involved in political activity. Preston Manning is the founder of the right-wing Reform Party in Canada, which later merged with the Progressive Conservative Party to form the new Conservative Party, led by Stephen Harper who became Prime Minister in 2006. Former Conservative Premier of the province of Ontario, Mike Harris, is also a fellow at the Fraser Institute."

Do you have a study from another organization, presumably more closely aligned with your views, that reached a different conclusion?
Can you cite specific faults in the methodology and assumptions used in the referenced study?
A legitimate attack on the credibility of the study would require one or both of those.
Otherwise, they win the battle of evidence, at least in any court of law.

For that matter, the credentials noted sound a lot more like center-right than far right to me. And that would make them at least equally objective as any of the left-leaning "non-partisan" organizations like Brookings.

"I can't find anything wrong with the study, but I don't like the answer, so I'll just shoot the messenger," won't cut it. If you want to refute something, you need to do the hard work of actually building a factual case against it. Sorry, life's hard.

(08-05-2009 10:59 AM)wvucrazed Wrote: [ -> ]

(08-05-2009 10:57 AM)Ninerfan1 Wrote: [ -> ]At least you're an honest hypocrite.

I didn't say disregard anything.

But if you think that the political persuasions and ties of these groups don't impact their studies then you are hopelessly naive.

I think the point was more that your first rxn is to throw out red-herrings.

Fairfax schools are a great example of a fine district that's now sinking fast. Exactly as the county changed from red to blue. Nothing personal.

(08-05-2009 11:16 AM)Owl 69/70/75 Wrote: [ -> ]

(08-05-2009 10:43 AM)wvucrazed Wrote: [ -> ]I wonder if the fact that the Fraser Institute is aligned with far-right politicos in Canada has anything to do with the results of their studies.
* * *
"The Fraser Institute's list of Senior Fellows includes Tom Flanagan, originally of Ottawa (Illinois), who is a professor of political science at the University of Calgary. Tom Flanagan was campaign manager to Prime Minister Stephen Harper when he headed Canada's newly formed Conservative Party in federal elections in 2004, and then again in 2005, when the Conservatives won a minority in government.
Other senior fellows of the institute have been deeply involved in political activity. Preston Manning is the founder of the right-wing Reform Party in Canada, which later merged with the Progressive Conservative Party to form the new Conservative Party, led by Stephen Harper who became Prime Minister in 2006. Former Conservative Premier of the province of Ontario, Mike Harris, is also a fellow at the Fraser Institute."

Do you have a study from another organization, presumably more closely aligned with your views, that reached a different conclusion?
Can you cite specific faults in the methodology and assumptions used in the referenced study?
A legitimate attack on the credibility of the study would require one or both of those.
Otherwise, they win the battle of evidence, at least in any court of law.

For that matter, the credentials noted sound a lot more like center-right than far right to me. And that would make them at least equally objective as any of the left-leaning "non-partisan" organizations like Brookings.

"I can't find anything wrong with the study, but I don't like the answer, so I'll just shoot the messenger," won't cut it. If you want to refute something, you need to do the hard work of actually building a factual case against it. Sorry, life's hard.

If you'll re-read my original post, you'll note that my intent was not to refute anything. Merely pointing out the source of the study, and to take that into consideration when assessing its validity.

Don't tell me that folks on here automatically swallow anything that comes from a "left" leaning source, because we know that's not true.

(08-05-2009 11:18 AM)DrTorch Wrote: [ -> ]I think the point was more that your first rxn is to throw out red-herrings.

Fairfax schools are a great example of a fine district that's now sinking fast. Exactly as the county changed from red to blue. Nothing personal.

I think you'll find many in Fairfax County who will disagree with that assessment.

(08-05-2009 11:20 AM)wvucrazed Wrote: [ -> ]If you'll re-read my original post, you'll note that my intent was not to refute anything. Merely pointing out the source of the study, and to take that into consideration when assessing its validity.

Now you're just lying.

Had your intent been as you say you would have offered more than you did. Instead you just posted a blatent loaded question with the clear intention of refuting whatever it said because of who did it.

Quote:Don't tell me that folks on here automatically swallow anything that comes from a "left" leaning source, because we know that's not true.

Most of us don't. But don't try and claim you weren't disregarding the study out of hand simply because of who put it out. Only Robert is dumb enough to believe you.

(08-05-2009 11:18 AM)DrTorch Wrote: [ -> ]Fairfax schools are a great example of a fine district that's now sinking fast. Exactly as the county changed from red to blue. Nothing personal.

I'd say that any districts that are sinking has more to do with the "bipartisan" No Child Left Behind Act. Hold back the top kids so we don't hurt the feelings of the dumbasses.

(08-05-2009 11:52 AM)mlb Wrote: [ -> ]

(08-05-2009 11:18 AM)DrTorch Wrote: [ -> ]Fairfax schools are a great example of a fine district that's now sinking fast. Exactly as the county changed from red to blue. Nothing personal.

I'd say that any districts that are sinking has more to do with the "bipartisan" No Child Left Behind Act. Hold back the top kids so we don't hurt the feelings of the dumbasses.

That doesn't explain the poor and/or declining performances seen prior to NCLB.

I haven't seen the numbers nationally, my local school district's scores were going up on the "standardized" tests throughout the 90s before NCLB came into effect. Now they hover just about level (which is probably considered good according to NCLB).

I fully believe that the education I got 15 years ago is significantly better than the education that most students receive today. The teachers I know say they teach less in class because they have to teach to a test. Less real "teaching" and more busy work in order to hammer the basics into the kids heads so they can pass a test that is dumbed down in order to get the lower kids through school. There is where parenting comes in to play, as you need to keep your kids learning at home, subsidizing what they may be losing now in school.

What I'm going to be interested in seeing is how they teach math when my kid gets to school. The local districts have changed to some sort of new math teaching style, which from what I'm told, is significantly different than how I learned. Will I have to learn the "new math" style when helping my kid, or can I teach him the way I learned? Time will tell...

(08-05-2009 12:04 PM)mlb Wrote: [ -> ]What I'm going to be interested in seeing is how they teach math when my kid gets to school. The local districts have changed to some sort of new math teaching style, which from what I'm told, is significantly different than how I learned. Will I have to learn the "new math" style when helping my kid, or can I teach him the way I learned? Time will tell...

The "new math" is for sh!t. Once again, professional educators straying from what is demonstrated to work, and going w/ some modern, demonstrably failed approach.

I've already seen parts of it, from articles on the subject, to me scanning over the 2009 OHSME. Even had a funny incident w/ an acquaintance: his daughter asked help on one of her HS math problems, he didn't have a clue what the question was even asking for. I looked at it, and I didn't have a clue either. Maybe I'm dumn, but he has a Master's in Chemical Engineering and teaches Controls at a local university!

This is the disaster of "Whole Language Learning" all over again. It could even be worse, b/c many parents taught their kids to read despite Whole Language...now parents won't be able to help their kids thru this mess b/c the approach is so incomprehensible.

What stuns me is this, if you look at John Forbes Nash, Richard Feynman or some of the geniuses who graduate college at 13 years old, you find that all of them had one important thing in common: they did lots of work. From arithmetic on up, they did problem after problem. They didn't just accept answers, they worked thru problems, hard problems, using traditional methods. That's what gave them the skills to develop new methods and theories.

Even at the elementary level, it is critical that kids do rote sets of addition, subtraction, multiplication, etc. In that way they have the tools to explore arithmetically. They begin to see patterns and approaches which are in fact, higher mathematics.

Professional educators want to skirt that approach. They think they can derive more efficient routes to get there. That's not to say there aren't advances available in education, but you can't just teach subjects w/ a few "tricks". Skirting the hard work is never going to happen. Not in this reality.

As for homeschoolers...that's a boon to the country. People should be delighted in this. However, I have seen homeschoolers take up w/ Whole Language Learning, because it is now old enough to be "traditional". Yes, many homeschoolers will repeat the mistakes of the public schools. Eventually that will happen w/ "new math." However, one of the big advantages of homescholing is that parents are quicker to see the failures of a poor method, and can and do change more quickly than public bureaucracies.

(08-05-2009 12:25 PM)DrTorch Wrote: [ -> ]As for homeschoolers...that's a boon to the country. People should be delighted in this. However, I have seen homeschoolers take up w/ Whole Language Learning, because it is now old enough to be "traditional". Yes, many homeschoolers will repeat the mistakes of the public schools. Eventually that will happen w/ "new math." However, one of the big advantages of homescholing is that parents are quicker to see the failures of a poor method, and can and do change more quickly than public bureaucracies.

I knew a family that homeschooled their kids. They were neightbors and close friends of one of my mom's sisters.

They taught their children that the world was 6,000 years old, and that dinosaurs were on Noah's Ark, and that evolution was basically a satanic plot to take us farther away from God.

(08-05-2009 12:30 PM)wvucrazed Wrote: [ -> ]

(08-05-2009 12:25 PM)DrTorch Wrote: [ -> ]As for homeschoolers...that's a boon to the country. People should be delighted in this. However, I have seen homeschoolers take up w/ Whole Language Learning, because it is now old enough to be "traditional". Yes, many homeschoolers will repeat the mistakes of the public schools. Eventually that will happen w/ "new math." However, one of the big advantages of homescholing is that parents are quicker to see the failures of a poor method, and can and do change more quickly than public bureaucracies.

I knew a family that homeschooled their kids. They were neightbors and close friends of one of my mom's sisters.

They taught their children that the world was 6,000 years old, and that dinosaurs were on Noah's Ark, and that evolution was basically a satanic plot to take us farther away from God.

Based upon that experience, what percentage of homeschoolers would you say fit that description?

(08-05-2009 12:36 PM)Owl 69/70/75 Wrote: [ -> ]Based upon that experience, what percentage of homeschoolers would you say fit that description?

No clue. Just relating one particular case.

But I know that this family was one of a number in my aunt's church that homeschooled their kids, and I know that religious conviction is one of the primary reasons why parents choose to homeschool their kids, so I suspect a fairly sizable percentage are following the "creationist" viewpoint in their teaching.

(08-05-2009 12:30 PM)wvucrazed Wrote: [ -> ]

(08-05-2009 12:25 PM)DrTorch Wrote: [ -> ]As for homeschoolers...that's a boon to the country. People should be delighted in this. However, I have seen homeschoolers take up w/ Whole Language Learning, because it is now old enough to be "traditional". Yes, many homeschoolers will repeat the mistakes of the public schools. Eventually that will happen w/ "new math." However, one of the big advantages of homescholing is that parents are quicker to see the failures of a poor method, and can and do change more quickly than public bureaucracies.

I knew a family that homeschooled their kids. They were neightbors and close friends of one of my mom's sisters.

They taught their children that the world was 6,000 years old, and that dinosaurs were on Noah's Ark, and that evolution was basically a satanic plot to take us farther away from God.

I know several people who went to public school. They were taught that the gov't could provide universal health care for $600B, that you could create jobs by taking money from the economy, that thinking for yourself was basically a plot to take us further away from Government.