Reports leaking out today are even more horrific. Many of us have avoided commenting on this as maybe we are unsure what to say. I can only say a silent prayer for the ordinary people of Iran as they face unbelieveable violence directed against them. I can't imagine being in that situation, in that chaos.
Quote:I only want to speak about what I have witnessed. I am a medical student.
........What can you say to the family of the 13 year-old boy who died from gunshots and whose dead body then disappeared? This issue is not about cheating (election) anymore. This is not about stealing votes anymore. The issue is about a vast injustice inflected on the people.
.......And from those who shut their eyes and close their ears and claim the riots are in opposition of the government and presidency!! No! The people's complaint is against the egregious injustices committed against the people.
More gruesome pictures and video leaking out. Men, women and and even kids being killed by goon squads - some citizen reporters are saying it is Hamas, some say Hezbollah. The truth is hard to determine from the reporting but it is safe to say that things have gotten even worse, if that is possible.
http://atlasshrugs2000.typepad.com/atlas_shrugs/
http://gatewaypundit.blogspot.com/2009/0...eople.html
With all the "stuff" happening here right now in this country - Health Care debate, Cap and Trade vote Friday, etc. it is easy to turn a blind eye to what is happening in Iran.
I've been conflicted as to our President's reaction and statements regarding Iran. It seems to me like he's been voting "present" but then, what IS the
proper response to events so horrific?
(06-24-2009 02:37 PM)MileHighBronco Wrote: [ -> ]Reports leaking out today are even more horrific. Many of us have avoided commenting on this as maybe we are unsure what to say. I can only say a silent prayer for the ordinary people of Iran as they face unbelieveable violence directed against them. I can't imagine being in that situation, in that chaos.
Quote:I only want to speak about what I have witnessed. I am a medical student.
........What can you say to the family of the 13 year-old boy who died from gunshots and whose dead body then disappeared? This issue is not about cheating (election) anymore. This is not about stealing votes anymore. The issue is about a vast injustice inflected on the people.
.......And from those who shut their eyes and close their ears and claim the riots are in opposition of the government and presidency!! No! The people's complaint is against the egregious injustices committed against the people.
More gruesome pictures and video leaking out. Men, women and and even kids being killed by goon squads - some citizen reporters are saying it is Hamas, some say Hezbollah. The truth is hard to determine from the reporting but it is safe to say that things have gotten even worse, if that is possible.
http://atlasshrugs2000.typepad.com/atlas_shrugs/
http://gatewaypundit.blogspot.com/2009/0...eople.html
With all the "stuff" happening here right now in this country - Health Care debate, Cap and Trade vote Friday, etc. it is easy to turn a blind eye to what is happening in Iran.
I've been conflicted as to our President's reaction and statements regarding Iran. It seems to me like he's been voting "present" but then, what IS the proper response to events so horrific?
According to our Constitution, we the people give the power to govern to the politicians. In Iran, the right to govern comes from Allah. If the people rebel against the gov't, they rebel against God.
What can the POTUS tell them? Listen to the people? Their reply is: I listen to Allah. Dumbya was trying to change their culture. He didn't understand the differences. I hope that the Iranian gov't does listen to their people, but they are going to crush the protesters before they proceed.
Looks like the Iranians are fed up with their religious kooks as well.
Man desires to be as free as possible, in every society.
It's a horrible situation. But we can't police the world.
I'm sure some will want us to intervene.
According to House Foreign Relations Committee member Dana Rohrabacher, the violence and bloodshed in Tehran is President Obama's fault for not talking tougher a few days ago.
(06-25-2009 08:37 AM)MajorHoople Wrote: [ -> ]According to House Foreign Relations Committee member Dana Rohrabacher, the violence and bloodshed in Tehran is President Obama's fault for not talking tougher a few days ago.
What tougher language would be best? They are already blaming us for their internal issues. Tougher language may be politically best for internal US politics, but I doubt we can influence another country that already wants nuclear weapons to wipe us off the map.
(06-25-2009 11:49 AM)steer Wrote: [ -> ]What tougher language would be best? They are already blaming us for their internal issues. Tougher language may be politically best for internal US politics, but I doubt we can influence another country that wants already nuclear weapons to wipe us off the map.
There you go. No matter what happens, the Iranian government will blame us, trying their best to deflect attention from their brutality. They are already doing it. But it's not working - nobody is buying it.
I think what a lot of people would have preferred is that O came out early and made a statement that was more clear - that
the people of this country stand in support of the people of Iran.
IMO, Obama knows that the Iran nuclear issue is something to keep his eye on. His narcissism still leads him to think that he can sit down and persuade them not to continue their nuclear ambitions through the sheer force of his personality, even though every effort in that direction, from the Europeans and others has utterly failed. He doesn't dare make them mad by seeming to side too strongly with those protesting. The "I don't want to be seen as meddling or they will deflect blame unto us" excuse for his waffling and tepid pronouncements is ridiculous. They ALREADY are blaming us. Man up for once in your life and say what you mean (unless, of course, he doesn't mean it). Stand up for freedom from tyranny for people.
I'm not talking about military intervention or policing the world, just about offering support to a people under threat from their own government. We're not wanting threats or tough talk but simply a strong message of support. Anybody (like Rohrabacher) that wants tough talk or threats should not be taken seriously. It sounds like frustration with Obama to me.
While the world waited for America's response, Obama went out for ice cream. Now, THAT'S a story that the media couldn't wait to tell!
(06-25-2009 12:35 PM)MileHighBronco Wrote: [ -> ] (06-25-2009 11:49 AM)steer Wrote: [ -> ]What tougher language would be best? They are already blaming us for their internal issues. Tougher language may be politically best for internal US politics, but I doubt we can influence another country that wants already nuclear weapons to wipe us off the map.
There you go. No matter what happens, the Iranian government will blame us, trying their best to deflect attention from their brutality. They are already doing it. But it's not working - nobody is buying it.
I think what a lot of people would have preferred is that O came out early and made a statement that was more clear - that the people of this country stand in support of the people of Iran.
IMO, Obama knows that the Iran nuclear issue is something to keep his eye on. His narcissism still leads him to think that he can sit down and persuade them not to continue their nuclear ambitions through the sheer force of his personality, even though every effort in that direction, from the Europeans and others has utterly failed. He doesn't dare make them mad by seeming to side too strongly with those protesting. The "I don't want to be seen as meddling or they will deflect blame unto us" excuse for his waffling and tepid pronouncements is ridiculous. They ALREADY are blaming us. Man up for once in your life and say what you mean (unless, of course, he doesn't mean it). Stand up for freedom from tyranny for people.
I'm not talking about military intervention or policing the world, just about offering support to a people under threat from their own government. We're not wanting threats or tough talk but simply a strong message of support. Anybody (like Rohrabacher) that wants tough talk or threats should not be taken seriously. It sounds like frustration with Obama to me.
While the world waited for America's response, Obama went out for ice cream. Now, THAT'S a story that the media couldn't wait to tell!
I love ice cream. So MHB, what do you suggest he say and do publicly?
CIA intelligence and review for covert action - yes. But nothing that can be found out for 10 years let alone something the American people could applaud tonight on TV.
On Friday, I was at a motel attending a conference and the story on the tube was that even the opposition that lost would still be anti-US if the election were reversed. The position of Iran is anti-US within the Iranian power structure on all sides. We cannot currently win over there now.
So what can BO say?
Oh, come on, Steer I already told you. Read it again and pay attention to the bold part.
It's not about "winning" over there. It's about clearly articulating that the AMERICAN PEOPLE stand in solidarity with the people of Iran. It's about not waiting until 10 or 11 days have passed to weakly make that case. But to Obama, it's always about himself. The man who is the supposed leader of the free world who cozies up to every thug dictator for photo ops, bows to the Saudis, trashes his own country while abroad, apologizes ad nauseum for our history can't find it in his heart to stand up for freedom abroad and CLEARLY articulate it.
He's weak and every despot around the world knows it. Even Joe "gaffe" Biden knew it and told us that the O would be tested. For once he was right about something.
If you didn't know, Iran's population is young and yearning to be free. Unlike their repressive government, many if not most of them are not overtly anti-U.S.
For all the criticism that Bush received on 9/11 for "fiddling while Rome burned" I believe that Obama deserves the criticism. He should have come out EARLY and made a strong statement. Not waiting to see which side wins. We KNOW which side will win. The side which employs goon squads. The side which is trying to prevent all communications out of the country. The side which is arresting and disappearing reporters. The side which has no problem killing it's own citizens.
You Obama drones refuse to see that your savior is an empty suit trying to vote present as he did so well as a Senator. It is time to take a stand and he waffled. A big biff.
Do you really think sending "messages" is going to change anything over there?
Silence speaks loudest and it ain't the message that those longing for freedom are hoping for. Next to silence are mealy-mouthed mixed doublespeak messages of "concern."
Not saying it would or will change anything. I'manutjob already says that the big O is meddling. What you have to lose by standing for freedom?
(06-25-2009 01:23 PM)MileHighBronco Wrote: [ -> ]Oh, come on, Steer I already told you. Read it again and pay attention to the bold part.
It's not about "winning" over there. It's about clearly articulating that the AMERICAN PEOPLE stand in solidarity with the people of Iran. It's about not waiting until 10 or 11 days have passed to weakly make that case. But to Obama, it's always about himself. The man who is the supposed leader of the free world who cozies up to every thug dictator for photo ops, bows to the Saudis, trashes his own country while abroad, apologizes ad nauseum for our history can't find it in his heart to stand up for freedom abroad and CLEARLY articulate it.
He's weak and every despot around the world knows it. Even Joe "gaffe" Biden knew it and told us that the O would be tested. For once he was right about something.
If you didn't know, Iran's population is young and yearning to be free. Unlike their repressive government, many if not most of them are not overtly anti-U.S.
For all the criticism that Bush received on 9/11 for "fiddling while Rome burned" I believe that Obama deserves the criticism. He should have come out EARLY and made a strong statement. Not waiting to see which side wins. We KNOW which side will win. The side which employs goon squads. The side which is trying to prevent all communications out of the country. The side which is arresting and disappearing reporters. The side which has no problem killing it's own citizens.
You Obama drones refuse to see that your savior is an empty suit trying to vote present as he did so well as a Senator. It is time to take a stand and he waffled. A big biff.
DB wrote
Quote:Do you really think sending "messages" is going to change anything over there?
Maybe DB has said it better. There are things that the American people would love to hear. Those same statements would really be destructive when read in Iran. The POTUS can add fuel to the fire.
I think the younger people you refer to would like to overthrow the form of gov't, but the gov't believes they derive their power from Allah and they have a duty force the people to comply to Allah's will. I believe that is bull! Our constitution says the power of the gov't is derived from the people. You believe this also, I think. So BO is damned by Iran if he speaks out (or if he doesn't even) and damned by yourself and others if he doesn't. He can't win here.
He can use these incidents and work through the UN or other systems to use this to build a coalition vs Iran. But that isn't going to be visible for public consumption for a while.
You seem to want him to say something so you can respond,
"Right on!" The Iranian power structure wants the same thing so they can use it to feed the anger against "the great American demon."
The US will remain, "the great American demon" until there is some other country in the world that steps forward to replace that image no matter what we say or do. Our past has doomed us to this fate once we won the cold war. The US became the military leader in the world, the economic engine that drove others and also our people have one of the highest standards of living. Until another nation comes along to replace all of these images, we are to be anointed the villain.
You are correct that our president, the party affliliation makes no difference, can not win in this situation.
Always proud to be a Bronco.
All that is required is patience; 70% of the population is under 30 years old. Attrition is the best ally for improved relationships with Iran.
The last thing the USA needs is to get bogged down in another confrontation with a country that is our polar opposite. Let the Iranians deal with their own problems. The literacy rate is 90% and 70% of their population have college educations. They will work it out.
I'm not sure that patience will be able to protect the US from the Hbomb, which they are very close to possessing.
Don't forget that the issues the Iranians are debating are centuries old issues. The culture is so much different where for centuries their laws are formed by religion.
Always proud to be a Bronco.
(06-26-2009 09:27 AM)acer1 Wrote: [ -> ]I'm not sure that patience will be able to protect the US from the Hbomb, which they are very close to possessing.
Don't forget that the issues the Iranians are debating are centuries old issues. The culture is so much different where for centuries their laws are formed by religion.
Always proud to be a Bronco.
Of course we need to work to neutralize nuclear aspirations of the world, including reigning in our own military who seek to use 'tactical nuclear weapons'
http://www.wsws.org/articles/2002/mar200...-m11.shtml. We also need to use all means (including diplomacy) to resolve our differences with the Moslem world without going nuclear.
Steer, do you believe that those countries have plans to do likewise? That is to say, we know that Russia, and China have nuclear weapons, are they aiming them at themselves?
I don't see where have a contingency plan is harmful. In fact it would have been great if Mayor Nevin had one in New Orleans for huricanes. Here was a city built below sea level, and they had no emergency evacuation plans??????????? After 9/11 I would have reviewed all emergency plans that the city might have for any occassions.
Always proud to be a Bronco.
B.O.'s method of showing support is to wait until the outcome is sealed in Iran, take a focus poll in D.C., and see which way the wind is blowing.
That' leadership!!!
Even France stood behind the people of Iran. France!!!!
![[Image: fishing_small.jpg]](http://www.beyondsatire.us/files/fishing_small.jpg)