from AtlanticSun.org...
MACON, Ga. - After a first-place finish in men's and women's tennis, ETSU takes the lead for the 2008-2009 Bill Bibb Trophy, the combined all-sports trophy for the Atlantic Sun. In the all-sports trophy, former leader Belmont sits in second with 261 points and Jacksonville comes in third falling six points behind the Bruins. Campbell jumped into fourth after capturing the title in men’s golf and strong finishes in men's and women's tennis. The Camels are 17 points behind the Dolphins. Kennesaw State rides the coat tails of the Camels, sitting 12 points behind them. UNF and FGCU take the sixth and seventh spots. The list rounds out with Stetson, Mercer, USC Upstate and Lipscomb sliding in at eighth through 11th. Jacksonville maintains the lead in the race for the Sherman Day Trophy. The Dolphin women own a 15 point advantage in the standings for the women's all-sports competition. Kennesaw State moves to second with Belmont and ETSU tied for third, 16.5 points behind the Dolphins. FGCU controls fifth with 126 points, followed by Campbell, UNF and Mercer. Even with first place finishes in golf and tennis, Stetson trails the Bears in ninth place. USC Upstate and Lipscomb finish the list in 10th and 11th. The Bucs own a slight lead in the men's all-sports competition for the Jesse C. Fletcher Trophy. ETSU has a 10.5-point margin on Campbell. ETSU took the men’s tennis title to stay ahead of the Camels. Belmont falls to third while UNF jumps two spots to fourth with Jacksonville moving up to fifth. Stetson and USC Upstate move up to sixth and seventh as Lipscomb slips into eighth. Mercer, Kennesaw State and FGCU fall into the ninth through 11th spots. The conference awards points for the all-sports race on a descending basis in three-point increments according to a particular team's finish in relation to the number of teams competing in that sport. In team sports, an institution's position in the final regular season standings denotes their total points for a particular sport. In individual sports, (cross country, golf, track & field) the final A-Sun Championship Standings determine a school's point total. Any teams who tie split their allotted points. The Atlantic Sun Conference is an 11-member league committed to Building Winners for Life. The A-Sun stands for achievement with integrity in both the academic and athletic arenas, with a focus on the balance between the two for our student-athletes. Headquartered in Macon, Ga., the A-Sun boasts six of the top eight media markets in the Southeast. The A-Sun includes a blend of the most prestigious and dynamic private and public institutions in the region: Belmont University, Campbell University, East Tennessee State University, Florida Gulf Coast University, Jacksonville University, Kennesaw State University, Lipscomb University, Mercer University, University of North Florida, University of South Carolina Upstate and Stetson University.
yawwwnnnn. oh, excuse me. must be the canadian air.
Step in line little "polish soldiers" and praise ETSU for this remarkable achievement
(04-25-2009 12:50 AM)Goldfinger Wrote: [ -> ]Step in line little "polish soldiers" and praise ETSU for this remarkable achievement
Come on, Gold. It's good news regardless of the league. Would you rather the program not be winning the all-sports title?
I can tell you with complete honesty that I don't care either way. It's not a bragging point. It doesn't mean anything. We only have one sport left that matters. This would be true regardless of conference affiliation. We could be in the SEC and that wouldn't be a bragging point.
I agree, Gold (no surprise, I know). Just like the guy in the Knoxville paper said a couple of weeks ago - how a school does in swimming, golf, tennis, baseball, etc. really doesn't matter. All that really matters is football and basketball.
And as I wrote on here a couple of weeks ago, at ETSU the only sport that is of any consequence is mens basketball.
The all conference trophy, particularly in a conference as weak as the ASun (and don't tell me how good they are in baseball or tennis - I haven't seen an ASun team ranked all year), is totally inconsequential.
No surprise that the two of you agree. So, let me understand this, we should drop all athletics at all schools across the country with the exception of men's basketball and football. Therefore, the educational mission of collegiate athletics -- I think it's easy for people to forget this -- should just be discarded and everyone should just make collegiate men's hoops and football semi pro feeder teams.
Look, you guys have a point when it comes to popularity of those two sports, and I agree with you that they are highly popular and the main concern of most fans, but regardless of that sentiment, the mission of college athletics goes beyond that. And at the end of the day, success in these other sports and overall success as a program is a good thing.
Kev, several years ago when most all of UTs sports were at the top of the national rankings (instead of just one or two like today) , people including newspaper reporters were applauding the efforts of the OVERALL program. It was something people were taking pride in. Now that UT's not at the top of the SEC as an overall program, and I can see why people would dismiss this and say "Oh, it doesn't matter as long as we have men's basketball and football." Well, let me correct this to say at least UT has basketball now -- the football is in recovery. However, this blinder mentality is typical of UT fans. Heck, it's typical of most all fans at all schools.
(04-25-2009 01:07 PM)Buc2002 Wrote: [ -> ]Kev, several years ago when most all of UTs sports were at the top of the national rankings (instead of just one or two like today) , people including newspaper reporters were applauding the efforts of the OVERALL program. It was something people were taking pride in. Now that UT's not at the top of the SEC as an overall program, and I can see why people would dismiss this and say "Oh, it doesn't matter as long as we have men's basketball and football." Well, let me correct this to say at least UT has basketball now -- the football is in recovery. However, this blinder mentality is typical of UT fans. Heck, it's typical of most all fans at all schools.
You couldn't be more wrong about UT, 02. Sports other than football and basketball are not a part of anyone's conversation or attention in Knoxville. On a slow news days, they might get mentioned in the paper. I couldn't tell you how any of them are doing.
Do I think they should get rid of them? No. Do I think they should spend millions on them? No way.
However, I think it's crazy for the coaches in football and basketball to make the money they do, too. We're probably going to see a reversal in this trend if the economy continues to sputter. And that might not be a bad thing.
The flip side of that is that men's basketball and football make money ... so at least they pay for the salaries, etc.
Back to the issue at hand. The sports like tennis and golf benefit only the athletes themselves. There are no real fans (other than relatives and girl/boyfriends) who benefit from their existence. Therefore, I can't understand why money is actually spent for them any more than it should be spent for intramural sports. I would guess that a lot more students are involved in intramural sprots at ETSU than go to see the golf or tennis teams.
02,
What exactly is the educational mission of collegiate athletics? Does the athlete receive a greater level of learning than the student who is there solely for academia merely because he/she has a special ability that allows for an extra curricular activity? I will suggest the answer to be no. In my experience education is entirely based upon what each individual puts into it. I know many college graduates who are well rounded individuals and equally many individuals who have gone as far as receiving their masters who themselves are just a small step away from swinging in tree's. Let me tell you something ole sport, the purpose of athletics (i.e. competitive sports) is to win. It is not the purpose of athletics to ensure Kevin Tiggs (just an example) has a clear understanding of the Prussian wars rather it is the purpose of European History Classes to provide Tiggs with that knowledge. It is, however, the responsibility of the Athletic department to deny athletic privileges to any student athlete who does not meet the minimum academic requirements as set forth by the NCAA. Therefor all the nauseating back-patting that goes on throughout each athletic dept all over the country as they spew ridiculous gibberish that they are here to provide educational value to the athlete is disingenuous as hell. The student athlete is there to provide the athletic department with blood, sweat, and victories. The purpose of competition is to win. Murry Bartow keeps his job not because of his teams graduation percentages but as a result of his winning/loss ratio on the court. However, coaches whose sports are without popularity are not graded by the same scale. The women's softball coach need only prove that he/she can operate with in the budget, keep his/her team out of the newspaper for anything other than acceptable press, and generally get along inside the good ole boy (or girl) system that is so prevalent in academic institutions where lack of success is always bailed out by tax dollars. Football and Men's Basketball are judged in terms of success vs failure, however other sports are not. This tells me that athletic institutions, such as ETSU, do not care whether or not these unpopular programs succeed or fail. We have coaches who have coached particular sports for years and have never won anything. Why are these coaches never fired and the sports handed over to their assistants? Or even outside blood? When was the last time ETSU fired a head coach of the sports it currently participates in? Are all of the programs at ETSU big successes, even in their own insignificant ways? I'm going to have to say no. And so would anyone who is honest.
Now I know what you're thinking in that head of yours, ole sport. Gold has just reversed himself. Gold's whole argument has been that football was dropped to provide small sports the opportunity to thrive. Well, that's true it is why football was dropped. However, this is not a reversal of statements but a perfect representation of just how the mindset of modern academia has spilled over into collegiate athletics. It is something that exists merely to serve itself. In fact that is not even accurate...because it only tells half the tale. For the rest of the story you have to understand that we all exist to provide, at least in part, the athletic world with the opportunity to serve itself whether we like it or not.
Now...should small sports be banned nationwide? This may surprise you but I am not against the existence of soccer, volleyball, softball, tennis, or what have you. What I am against is the removal of football in order to cater to the small time sports. I am against Title 9 as I am also against Affirmative Action or any other kind of bull**** commie blather that seemingly seeks to equalize that which can never be equal. For clarification I'm not talking about race but individual achievement.
I blame a lot of people for ETSU's current lot in life. At the top end I blame the administration...but I also blame the fans. The more I think about it...the more I think that this whole thing truly started the year Allan Leforce left ETSU after being violently turned on by an entire city. I was never in the camp that demanded he leave but I remember it well. At that moment the entire town, which had been as feverishly behind a team as any major athletic institution in America, turned their back on ETSU. Then when ETSU refused, rightfully so, to hire George Pitts they were lost for good. Some came back during the Timmy/Wadood years but it was never the same. Had the fans not of turned on Leforce/ETSU during those two Robert Dogget seasons...I don't think Stanton would have ever been in the position where he could have cut football. He cut it during good times at ETSU but the times weren't good enough to enrage an entire city to charge his house with pitch-forks and flaming torches. Had Leforce of stayed and turned the program back around after the thugs left...we could of been Gonzaga. But that's a lot of what-if's. And as has been pointed out on this board many times there hasn't been a single administration in ETSU history that has ever truly been run as it should be....although this current regime is without question the worst.
I feel as though I am off topic but I don't feel like editing. In final analysis ETSU's doom was caused by many fronts but that is not a free pass for this administration. They own the brunt of it.
While I'm on the subject....nothing infuriates me more than seeing UT orange at the dome.
BTW...
ETSU doesn't win the All-Sports trophy in the So Con since 1983, but wins four in a row in the A-Sun.
Tell me again how the competition is just as good here?
To be fair, doesn't App state have like 4 more sports or something? How can you win the trophy when you don't have all the sports?
Until this year ETSU didn't have Mens Soccer
Ok one sport is one thing, but 4?
When is the last time ETSU had 18,000 people on campus for an event? That's the average crowd for a UT men's basketball game.
02 you forget, football was SUCH A DRAIN on ETSU and there wouldn't be a student fee to support athletics, and well, that was a lie. Nevermind that there already was one in place as a hidden fee (It's the Bill Heard Chevrolet special!), now they implemented a very public fee WITHOUT the sport that was such a drain. How is soccer, both mens and womens not a drain? How about tennis? The fact is, they aren't generating any type of actual revenue for the university, there's costs involved to maintain the facilities, turn on the lights, overpay the soccer coaches to lose, the tennis coaches to beat up on pedestrian teams only to get waxed at the NCAA's, we get it, and I won't even get started on baseball. They have more scholarships than most big name teams have and for what again? Atleast they beat UT right? The fact is ETSU athletics has become a financial drain, and if athletics is about a "strategic business decision" then yes, ETSU athletics should be dropped except for the two basketball teams, and the two golf teams (and if golf loses its' daddy warbucks it should go, because it's a "strategic business move."
(04-28-2009 11:43 PM)Buccaneerlover Wrote: [ -> ]When is the last time ETSU had 18,000 people on campus for an event? That's the average crowd for a UT men's basketball game.
02 you forget, football was SUCH A DRAIN on ETSU and there wouldn't be a student fee to support athletics, and well, that was a lie. Nevermind that there already was one in place as a hidden fee (It's the Bill Heard Chevrolet special!), now they implemented a very public fee WITHOUT the sport that was such a drain. How is soccer, both mens and womens not a drain? How about tennis? The fact is, they aren't generating any type of actual revenue for the university, there's costs involved to maintain the facilities, turn on the lights, overpay the soccer coaches to lose, the tennis coaches to beat up on pedestrian teams only to get waxed at the NCAA's, we get it, and I won't even get started on baseball. They have more scholarships than most big name teams have and for what again? Atleast they beat UT right? The fact is ETSU athletics has become a financial drain, and if athletics is about a "strategic business decision" then yes, ETSU athletics should be dropped except for the two basketball teams, and the two golf teams (and if golf loses its' daddy warbucks it should go, because it's a "strategic business move."
Lover, were you out drinking in Nashville last night? OK, just drop all the programs and kiss good bye to Division I. If you like your two basketball programs you still have to have enough programs (11 at a minimum) to meet NCAA requirements. You know this. As for baseball, you are not right about them having "more scholarships" than most programs. That's just not true so don't spread something you just grabbed out of thin air.
As for the drains and such, we all certainly know that everything at ETSU is in effect not a money-maker. The institution itself is a public service funded by public dollars and student tuition/fees/etc. We could have long discussions about which programs should stay or go, but what you can't deny is that every sport at ETSU right now -- including men's basketball - were cheaper to fund both for scholarships and operating than football. EVERY sport at ETSU is in effect a "drain", but the football drain was just vastly bigger than the other sports. And at a time in 2003 when some tough decisions had to be made, football was simply an easy target. We all know this and have discussed it at length.
football? A crap program in a crap conference and in Division 1AA to boot? Must have been a no brainer to cut that baby.
Would you rather lose $1 million on 60 scholarship athletes or $100,000 on 5 scholarship athletes? Yes, ETSU lost more money on football than any other sport but it also provided more scholarships and benefitted more student-athletes than any other sport. You said, sports was about providing academic opportunities. What sport has the lowest cost on a per athlete basis? I don't know if the answer is football but it sure gets more competitive. What sport would students, faculty, alumni and the community rather watch? Football is going to be #1 or #2 in almost everybody's mind. There are many benefits to having a football team versus a soccer team that just has to be accounted for when discussing viability of programs
You said, we needed 11 sports. The women's have 8 already so ETSU could cut 4 men's teams. I assume this would mess up conference affiliations but I am just trying to make a point. Please don't start with the all of you football supporters want us to hurt the other sports to bring back football. First, the Mullins crowd didn't seem too disappointed when football paid the ultimate sacrifice to benefit the other sports. Your administration didn't think about any alternatives (Title IX, dropping other sports, student fees, etc) before you dropped football. Your guys took the easy way out.
When did it change? Was I lied to? Were the fans lied to on baseball? I was there when it was told that baseball WOULD HAVE THE MAX 9.9 SCHOLARSHIPS available for division I men's baseball teams with the elimination of football. So now the budget has been cut for them? When did this happen? Was there not a fundraiser to try and stop that? The bottom line is the we were sold a bill of goods to let this football thing happen. When is C-USA coming to invite us to join? Where's the 2 million dollar dues to be a member of that league going to come from if they were to ever invite us (which will never happen without football by the way). Football was an easy decision to do it because there are people in that damn dome I drove by earlier that are too lazy/busy to work at it and make it successful. But hey, other schools are going to follow that trend, I guess you better call BJ Coleman and tell him not to transfer to Chattanooga because they're going to drop football along with TTU, Austin Peay, and the other FCS schools in Tennessee... Whoops! It's so sad that ETSU is a laughing stock when it comes to this whole debate, and always will be but the decision is still being defended as though it's the right one with the philosophy that I-AA/FCS is a dying thing. It's not dying, MORE TEAMS ARE MOVING UP!
(04-29-2009 07:29 AM)Buc2002 Wrote: [ -> ] (04-28-2009 11:43 PM)Buccaneerlover Wrote: [ -> ]When is the last time ETSU had 18,000 people on campus for an event? That's the average crowd for a UT men's basketball game.
02 you forget, football was SUCH A DRAIN on ETSU and there wouldn't be a student fee to support athletics, and well, that was a lie. Nevermind that there already was one in place as a hidden fee (It's the Bill Heard Chevrolet special!), now they implemented a very public fee WITHOUT the sport that was such a drain. How is soccer, both mens and womens not a drain? How about tennis? The fact is, they aren't generating any type of actual revenue for the university, there's costs involved to maintain the facilities, turn on the lights, overpay the soccer coaches to lose, the tennis coaches to beat up on pedestrian teams only to get waxed at the NCAA's, we get it, and I won't even get started on baseball. They have more scholarships than most big name teams have and for what again? Atleast they beat UT right? The fact is ETSU athletics has become a financial drain, and if athletics is about a "strategic business decision" then yes, ETSU athletics should be dropped except for the two basketball teams, and the two golf teams (and if golf loses its' daddy warbucks it should go, because it's a "strategic business move."
Lover, were you out drinking in Nashville last night? OK, just drop all the programs and kiss good bye to Division I. If you like your two basketball programs you still have to have enough programs (11 at a minimum) to meet NCAA requirements. You know this. As for baseball, you are not right about them having "more scholarships" than most programs. That's just not true so don't spread something you just grabbed out of thin air.
As for the drains and such, we all certainly know that everything at ETSU is in effect not a money-maker. The institution itself is a public service funded by public dollars and student tuition/fees/etc. We could have long discussions about which programs should stay or go, but what you can't deny is that every sport at ETSU right now -- including men's basketball - were cheaper to fund both for scholarships and operating than football. EVERY sport at ETSU is in effect a "drain", but the football drain was just vastly bigger than the other sports. And at a time in 2003 when some tough decisions had to be made, football was simply an easy target. We all know this and have discussed it at length.
Lover,
ETSU is not a laughing stock. I just saw the third column this year about the bucs in The Knoxville News Sentinel. The first referred to them heading to the NCAA basketball tournament as champions of the Big South Conference.
The second was about how they now owned UT in baseball.
The third, in this morning's paper, said UT would be hosting ETSU's tennis team in the regional NCAA tennis tournament. UT's coach was glad to get such a high seed, meaning they could start with an easier win. Oh, and ETSU is mentioned as being in the regional in light of winning the Big South Conference.