http://www.limaohio.com/articles/state_3...ation.html
If this guy is so bold to get this column in print, then these discussions are underway in Cowlumbus.
Of course it would be a
good thing to shrink ZSU, but realistically, don't count on that. I don't think the BG Hockey story, and this column are coincidental. I think Strickland is looking to shrink the budget somehow, and there is some legitimacy to paring down Ohio's state university system.
(03-13-2009 08:45 AM)DrTorch Wrote: [ -> ]http://www.limaohio.com/articles/state_3...ation.html
If this guy is so bold to get this column in print, then these discussions are underway in Cowlumbus.
Of course it would be a good thing to shrink ZSU, but realistically, don't count on that. I don't think the BG Hockey story, and this column are coincidental. I think Strickland is looking to shrink the budget somehow, and there is some legitimacy to paring down Ohio's state university system.
Eh.
Private university guy trying to argue against the competition, with which they are finding it very difficult to compete. As the economy worsens, more HS students look to the state university system because they can't afford tuition at places like Ohio Northern, which has felt the pinch in their ability to offer as much aid as in better times.
I do agree that there is too much duplication in the state system, but I think moves to eliminate some of that will strengthen the state U's overall, not pare them down, enrollment-wise. (Hence Fingerhut's plan to blend places like Akron-CSU-YSU in a number of areas, along with BG-UT, etc.)
(03-13-2009 08:45 AM)DrTorch Wrote: [ -> ]http://www.limaohio.com/articles/state_3...ation.html
If this guy is so bold to get this column in print, then these discussions are underway in Cowlumbus.
Of course it would be a good thing to shrink ZSU, but realistically, don't count on that. I don't think the BG Hockey story, and this column are coincidental. I think Strickland is looking to shrink the budget somehow, and there is some legitimacy to paring down Ohio's state university system.
This guy who is affiliated with a tiny, private college argues that tiny private colleges should get first crack at the majority of college students attending in Ohio. All the popular majors should be handled by only private schools because the presence of state supported colleges violate some economic theory this guy espouses? State supported education exists for a reason and not just to interfere with some impossible, perfect market driven economic system. Many state universities were founded to educate teachers, provide scientific agricultural training, and to produce engineers, as well as to provide a sound liberal arts education at an accessible price. The private colleges were unable or unwilling to provide for the public demand for these essential services. I believe it could be argued that state supported higher education exists because the market place demanded it in the face of the failure of private institutions to adequately provide for society's needs.
Anybody to takes the McClough article as more than an academic economist spouting his favorite doctrine in an obscure newspaper is foolish. Any state legislator who acts on his recommendations should be removed from office.
(03-13-2009 09:52 AM)axeme Wrote: [ -> ] (03-13-2009 08:45 AM)DrTorch Wrote: [ -> ]http://www.limaohio.com/articles/state_3...ation.html
If this guy is so bold to get this column in print, then these discussions are underway in Cowlumbus.
Of course it would be a good thing to shrink ZSU, but realistically, don't count on that. I don't think the BG Hockey story, and this column are coincidental. I think Strickland is looking to shrink the budget somehow, and there is some legitimacy to paring down Ohio's state university system.
Eh.
Private university guy trying to argue against the competition, with which they are finding it very difficult to compete. As the economy worsens, more HS students look to the state university system because they can't afford tuition at places like Ohio Northern, which has felt the pinch in their ability to offer as much aid as in better times.
I do agree that there is too much duplication in the state system, but I think moves to eliminate some of that will strengthen the state U's overall, not pare them down, enrollment-wise. (Hence Fingerhut's plan to blend places like Akron-CSU-YSU in a number of areas, along with BG-UT, etc.)
Agree. The first thing I also noticed was that he is a private university guy. Went & checked costs of Ohio Northern compared to Toledo as both are in NW Ohio & both offer engineering degrees.
Roughly, for an engineering student (not counting scholarships):
Ohio Northern $42K full time student living on campus w/ mealplan
Toledo - $19K full time student living on campus w/ mealplan
Hell of a difference. btw - room & board were about the same for both. The difference is Tuition.
I'm not saying that Ohio doesn't need to eliminate some of the redundency, I just wonder about the motives of the private school author.
(03-13-2009 08:45 AM)DrTorch Wrote: [ -> ]http://www.limaohio.com/articles/state_3...ation.html
If this guy is so bold to get this column in print, then these discussions are underway in Cowlumbus.
Of course it would be a good thing to shrink ZSU, but realistically, don't count on that. I don't think the BG Hockey story, and this column are coincidental. I think Strickland is looking to shrink the budget somehow, and there is some legitimacy to paring down Ohio's state university system.
Hmmmmmm, sounds to me like Bernie Madoff, asking for a bail out.
Fair enough. My first response was the obvious conflict-of-interest. But, I changed that b/c there is still some validity in what he's saying...and I think it's safe to infer that such talks have occurred by TPTB.
Furthermore, who's to say small universities "can't compete"? The state schools ONLY have lower tuition b/c they are subsidized with tax dollars...who is it that really can't compete!?
Regardless, his points about demographics are worth noting. Does Ohio need to spend more dollars when numbers of students are shrinking? What will the ultimate result be?
And are grads staying in Ohio? Why not? What to do differently?
Yes, there is some personal interest involved here. Higher taxes to keep state universities operating will likely have some impact on smaller universities. But don't weep for small private schools, they often hold their position b/c of being small, and having better reputations...if not, then the market does exert its influence. The REAL questions are if, when, and how will that impact the State's universities.
(03-13-2009 10:27 AM)CE-SELLS-GOATS Wrote: [ -> ] (03-13-2009 08:45 AM)DrTorch Wrote: [ -> ]http://www.limaohio.com/articles/state_3...ation.html
If this guy is so bold to get this column in print, then these discussions are underway in Cowlumbus.
Of course it would be a good thing to shrink ZSU, but realistically, don't count on that. I don't think the BG Hockey story, and this column are coincidental. I think Strickland is looking to shrink the budget somehow, and there is some legitimacy to paring down Ohio's state university system.
Hmmmmmm, sounds to me like Bernie Madoff, asking for a bail out.
It sounds just the opposite to me CE, it sounds more like Mulally saying stop bailing out my failed competition.
(03-13-2009 10:41 AM)DrTorch Wrote: [ -> ] (03-13-2009 10:27 AM)CE-SELLS-GOATS Wrote: [ -> ] (03-13-2009 08:45 AM)DrTorch Wrote: [ -> ]http://www.limaohio.com/articles/state_3...ation.html
If this guy is so bold to get this column in print, then these discussions are underway in Cowlumbus.
Of course it would be a good thing to shrink ZSU, but realistically, don't count on that. I don't think the BG Hockey story, and this column are coincidental. I think Strickland is looking to shrink the budget somehow, and there is some legitimacy to paring down Ohio's state university system.
Hmmmmmm, sounds to me like Bernie Madoff, asking for a bail out.
It sounds just the opposite to me CE, it sounds more like Mulally saying stop bailing out my failed competition.
That's a legit argument. Here's another: Glass is Half Full. Glass is Half Empty. Maybe the Glass is Too Phucking Big? (like Mulally's head)
(03-13-2009 10:49 AM)CE-SELLS-GOATS Wrote: [ -> ] (03-13-2009 10:41 AM)DrTorch Wrote: [ -> ] (03-13-2009 10:27 AM)CE-SELLS-GOATS Wrote: [ -> ] (03-13-2009 08:45 AM)DrTorch Wrote: [ -> ]http://www.limaohio.com/articles/state_3...ation.html
If this guy is so bold to get this column in print, then these discussions are underway in Cowlumbus.
Of course it would be a good thing to shrink ZSU, but realistically, don't count on that. I don't think the BG Hockey story, and this column are coincidental. I think Strickland is looking to shrink the budget somehow, and there is some legitimacy to paring down Ohio's state university system.
Hmmmmmm, sounds to me like Bernie Madoff, asking for a bail out.
It sounds just the opposite to me CE, it sounds more like Mulally saying stop bailing out my failed competition.
That's a legit argument. Here's another: Glass is Half Full. Glass is Half Empty. Maybe the Glass is Too Phucking Big? (like Mulally's head)
(03-13-2009 08:45 AM)DrTorch Wrote: [ -> ]http://www.limaohio.com/articles/state_3...ation.html
If this guy is so bold to get this column in print, then these discussions are underway in Cowlumbus.
Of course it would be a good thing to shrink ZSU, but realistically, don't count on that. I don't think the BG Hockey story, and this column are coincidental. I think Strickland is looking to shrink the budget somehow, and there is some legitimacy to paring down Ohio's state university system.
Poorly written article for someone who has a PhD in liberal arts. The average hack could have put that together.
(03-13-2009 10:39 AM)DrTorch Wrote: [ -> ]Regardless, his points about demographics are worth noting. Does Ohio need to spend more dollars when numbers of students are shrinking? What will the ultimate result be?
And are grads staying in Ohio? Why not? What to do differently?
Yes, there is some personal interest involved here. Higher taxes to keep state universities operating will likely have some impact on smaller universities. But don't weep for small private schools, they often hold their position b/c of being small, and having better reputations...if not, then the market does exert its influence. The REAL questions are if, when, and how will that impact the State's universities.
Grads are not staying in Ohio for multiple reasons:
-Lack of recreational opportunities
-Bland scenery
-No "major" cultural city (e.g. Chicago in Illinois)
-Few careers of the 21st century
North Carolina was one of the poorest states back in the 60's and they grew on the back of defense jobs/hi-tech. With Ohio's economy good in the 50's it didn't hook onto the defense pork barrel like the south. Then the economy turned away from traditional manufacturing and Ohio was left in the dust. The auto belt is preparing to see the same fate as the steel belt did in the 70's.
Ohio has a good technology base and with the low cost of real estate and labor would be a good place for technology companies.
Maybe you could merge Akron, Kent, Youngstown and Cleveland State and challenge OSU. That would take care of the unbalanced football problem in the MAC--if this mega-U stayed in the MAC
Just a few thoughts here:
* Small private colleges and large public universities serve different needs. Not one glove fits all. It is fairly ridiculous to say that Toledo should drop their business program so that Ohio Northern can compete better. It really would just mean a lot of students wouldn't go to college.
* Small, private universities are heavily subsidized through federal programs for student loans and grants.
* Ohio's system is rather bizarre and I don't neccessarily think that it is working particularly well. Too many universities in Ohio are pursuing national university status and that's probably not the most efficient use of resources. That said, any change to the status quo would create winners and losers, and that would be unfortunate for the losers.
* Ohio's community college system is somewhat undermined by state universities. I like Illinois' system better, where there are very cheap (<$100 credit hour) community college districts that cover the entire state. I believe that the regional campuses of Kent, Akron, Miami, Ohio, Cincinnati, Ohio St., BGSU, etc. should be individual community colleges not tied to a particular university with both state and local support with easy transfer systems to any state school.
* Some people don't leave Ohio because they want to, but because they couldn't find a good job when they graduated. I didn't want to move from Ohio, but I didn't get a good (any) offer for a job in Ohio. There's a larger economic problem here (which is altogether obvious).
(03-15-2009 01:00 AM)bopol Wrote: [ -> ]Ohio's system is rather bizarre and I don't neccessarily think that it is working particularly well. Too many universities in Ohio are pursuing national university status and that's probably not the most efficient use of resources. That said, any change to the status quo would create winners and losers, and that would be unfortunate for the losers.
It all goes back to the the early to mid 1900's when The state took in a bunch of struggling universities. I'm an Akron fan and I will be the first to tell you that the Ohio University system would be better off with only OSU and the historical four corner universities. But that's the state's fault and the schools that they took in shouldn't be punished for that. It's a sticky situation anyway you look at it, but something needs to be done.
I'm for giving the engineering and research specializations to Akron, Toledo, cincy and OSU(of course) and then making BGSU,OU,MU and KSU more liberal arts/english/other worthless majors oriented. Then y-state and cleve state and the rest of the still struggling uni's leave a sore spot that I'm just not gunna touch.
(03-13-2009 08:09 PM)Airport KC Wrote: [ -> ] (03-13-2009 10:39 AM)DrTorch Wrote: [ -> ]Regardless, his points about demographics are worth noting. Does Ohio need to spend more dollars when numbers of students are shrinking? What will the ultimate result be?
And are grads staying in Ohio? Why not? What to do differently?
Yes, there is some personal interest involved here. Higher taxes to keep state universities operating will likely have some impact on smaller universities. But don't weep for small private schools, they often hold their position b/c of being small, and having better reputations...if not, then the market does exert its influence. The REAL questions are if, when, and how will that impact the State's universities.
Grads are not staying in Ohio for multiple reasons:
-Lack of recreational opportunities
-Bland scenery
-No "major" cultural city (e.g. Chicago in Illinois)
-Few careers of the 21st century
North Carolina was one of the poorest states back in the 60's and they grew on the back of defense jobs/hi-tech. With Ohio's economy good in the 50's it didn't hook onto the defense pork barrel like the south. Then the economy turned away from traditional manufacturing and Ohio was left in the dust. The auto belt is preparing to see the same fate as the steel belt did in the 70's.
Ohio has a good technology base and with the low cost of real estate and labor would be a good place for technology companies.
Lack of recreational opportunities?
In Ohio I use to ski in Mansfield,cross-country skied numerous places,play golf on a number of great courses,camped and hike in places like Hocking Hills,boated/sailed/fished Lake Erie and Maumee Bay,start going to the beach and the Lake Erie Islands in late April thru October,canoed numerous rivers, rock climbed,cycled throughout the state,etc.
Plenty of things to do like Pro and college sporting events.
Bland scenery?
Take a look at the Ohio River from Mt Adams,Lake Erie from the cliffs at the Rockledge Inn on Catawba Island,the rapids downstream from Toledo,Old Man's Cave at Hocking Hills,or fly over the Perry Monument at Put in Bay-hardly bland scenery.
No major cultural cities?
There is not one big city-but smaller-medium sized cities.Ones that have great symphonies,opera companies,musuems,zoos,music and art festivals.
Jobs, money, and the future are the issues.
When this era is finally written. We will look back and realize as a country we INVESTED too many resources in education, health care and real estate. The cost structure of education & health care are BLOATED because of easy financing and government backstop. (Real estate not cost structure but asset inflation that is just now being corrected). Education & health care have FAR surpassed the rate of inflation because of financing & govt.
(03-16-2009 10:23 AM)NIU05 Wrote: [ -> ]When this era is finally written. We will look back and realize as a country we INVESTED too many resources in education, health care and real estate. The cost structure of education & health care are BLOATED because of easy financing and government backstop. (Real estate not cost structure but asset inflation that is just now being corrected). Education & health care have FAR surpassed the rate of inflation because of financing & govt.
Excellent summary.
(03-16-2009 10:44 AM)DrTorch Wrote: [ -> ] (03-16-2009 10:23 AM)NIU05 Wrote: [ -> ]When this era is finally written. We will look back and realize as a country we INVESTED too many resources in education, health care and real estate. The cost structure of education & health care are BLOATED because of easy financing and government backstop. (Real estate not cost structure but asset inflation that is just now being corrected). Education & health care have FAR surpassed the rate of inflation because of financing & govt.
Excellent summary.
I want to see the plan in which we dramatically improve health care and education nationwide while removing government investment. Really, I do.
(03-16-2009 10:56 AM)axeme Wrote: [ -> ] (03-16-2009 10:44 AM)DrTorch Wrote: [ -> ] (03-16-2009 10:23 AM)NIU05 Wrote: [ -> ]When this era is finally written. We will look back and realize as a country we INVESTED too many resources in education, health care and real estate. The cost structure of education & health care are BLOATED because of easy financing and government backstop. (Real estate not cost structure but asset inflation that is just now being corrected). Education & health care have FAR surpassed the rate of inflation because of financing & govt.
Excellent summary.
I want to see the plan in which we dramatically improve health care and education nationwide while removing government investment. Really, I do.
I want to see the document that says this is the job of the government at all.
But since you asked, education is easy. You do what works. Get rid of the agenda that education is the salvation of the people, that everyone can be president, and that "dirty jobs" are for the uneducated, and that teachers have a mandate to shape the culture. It's elitist, arrogant, intolerant...expensive and ineffective.
I'd like to see every university head toward Miami's model where different majors have different costs. Why should my tax dollars subsidize every silly political agenda? Just how many "leisure studies" majors does this country need? Or sociology? Or psychology? Of course that's a model fraught with challenges as well, but it's a step in the right direction.
You can save a lot of dollars right there.
Health care? It's always gonna cost money. Fact of life. We do need to get insurance companies restructured. They are problematic for both patients and physicians. We need a fast and effective judiciary process that includes mediators and arbitrators, with swift enforcement.
We probably need personal savings accounts for health care.
We also need the NIH to start doing real research into nutrition, and stop teaching kids in gov't schools the "food pyramid" because it suits the USDA rather than real health.
As a country we need to get past our culture of gluttony. But, that's not the government's job, letting people pay for their own health care might be a big wake up call.
There are many millions of people that got that wake-up call a long, long time ago.