Should WAC coaches be kicked out of a game for making contact with WAC officials? This stems from a dispute I've been having with WolfPack fans about Coach Fox's behavior in Hawaii, Logan and Las Cruces. When Coach Fox made contact with Bob Staffen I was shocked (along with everyone around me at the game) that he wasn't kicked out of the game. Many may feel that the punishment should be more for making contact with an official in such a fashion, ie suspensions and fines.
So the question is what kind of conniption fit is ok and what kind is not? Where is the line drawn and what should be the punishments for certain actions? I get the impression that the WAC has nothing definitive in place. Your thoughts? Note: this is also related to football or any other WAC sponsored sport.
I'm just shocked. Shocked I say.
Well if the referees on the scene, including the alledged buttee didn't feel it warranted expulsion I would have to support their judgement..
ejmpalle Wrote:So the question is what kind of conniption fit is ok and what kind is not?
I like the kind of conniption fit that sprawls across 3 message boards looking for someone provide some back up for an opinion. When do you hit the Scout WAC board EJM?
I kid, I kid!
This is quite the crusade that our friend is on.
Senator Bob Bennett
(202) 224-5444
Senator Orrin Hatch
(202) 224-5251
As a courtesy, I've provided ejm with the telephone numbers for his two senators, in case he doesn't get the results he wants from the three different message boards and wants to take this a step further.
nvspuds Wrote:Well if the referees on the scene, including the alledged buttee didn't feel it warranted expulsion I would have to support their judgement..
Thanks for giving some kind of thoughtfull response, NVspuds. We'll see if any other Pack fans can overcome the sillyness. All though, I don't agree that the referree should be able to decide on what is appropriate behavior as a WAC rule. His judgement is good for the game itself based on the rules all ready in place, but not necessarily a standard. One ref's opinion may differ from another. As I said, above, I think the WAC should have a clear-cut rules regarding punishments for misconduct towards an official. And if they do all ready, I haven't seen them. I think subjectivity shouldn't apply when it comes to certain actions.
ejmpalle Wrote:We'll see if any other Pack fans can overcome the sillyness.
Come on...that's like asking Hillary Clinton to overcome her liberalism. It's like asking Rosie O Donnell to overcome her love of doughnuts. It's like asking Paris Hilton to overcome her alcoholism. It's like...
I'll stop now.
Six Pack Wrote:ejmpalle Wrote:We'll see if any other Pack fans can overcome the sillyness.
Come on...that's like asking Hillary Clinton to overcome her liberalism. It's like asking Rosie O Donnell to overcome her love of doughnuts. It's like asking Paris Hilton to overcome her alcoholism. It's like...
I'll stop now.
I'm just shocked. Shocked I say!
ejmpalle Wrote:nvspuds Wrote:Well if the referees on the scene, including the alledged buttee didn't feel it warranted expulsion I would have to support their judgement..
Thanks for giving some kind of thoughtfull response, NVspuds. We'll see if any other Pack fans can overcome the sillyness. All though, I don't agree that the referree should be able to decide on what is appropriate behavior as a WAC rule. His judgement is good for the game itself based on the rules all ready in place, but not necessarily a standard. One ref's opinion may differ from another. As I said, above, I think the WAC should have a clear-cut rules regarding punishments for misconduct towards an official. And if they do all ready, I haven't seen them. I think subjectivity shouldn't apply when it comes to certain actions.
Subjectivity is usually important because the intent of the offender is a key part of determining precisely what someone is guilty of. In your example, if Fox had intentionally headbutted an official he'd have likely been fired from his job. If in a heated moment there is some unintentional contact, that warrants a different level of punishment. That wouldn't stop the WAC from putting in place a rule that ANY contact with an official, however innocent or unintentional will require a one game suspension. But don't forget, rules that are applied regardless of the circumstance, the state of mind of the offenders and the actual harm done could be what caused Phoenix to lose their series to San Antonio. Sports fans across the country are still angry because taking a couple of steps off the bench isn't the same as wading into a fight.
Subjectivity is what allows rules to be applied justly in relation to the circumstances surrounding a perceived violation of a rule. Individuals sitting on the sidelines might not like the decision, but the people that make these decisions are put there to do precisely that. If you don't like it, there is always the right to protest.
Seattle, I'm afraid I'm going to have to edit or delete that post because of a lack of silliness.
Intelligent thought and discussion is forbidden around these parts. Please try harder next time.
Minister of Silly Walks
Six Pack Wrote:Seattle, I'm afraid I'm going to have to edit or delete that post because of a lack of silliness.
Intelligent thought and discussion is forbidden around these parts. Please try harder next time.
Minister of Silly Walks
I just read what I wrote and I sound like a bureaucratic euro-weenie putz. I deserve severe censure if not outright banishment. Before you know it I'll be attending Free Mumia concerts and wearing David Patrick Castro's Che t-shirt. Somebody please stop me before it's too late!
WolfInSeattle Wrote:I just read what I wrote and I sound like a bureaucratic euro-weenie putz. I deserve severe censure if not outright banishment. Before you know it I'll be attending Free Mumia concerts and wearing David Patrick Castro's Che t-shirt. Somebody please stop me before it's too late!
WolfInSeattle gets a +1 for realizing the errors of his ways. He'll get another +1 only if he wears a Che shirt, Free Slappy Fez, and a hello kitty backpack.
I think it should be like baseball, you make contact with the offical and you are thrown out of the game. I know the crowd at the Pan Am would absolutely erupt if coach Fox was thrown out of a game, baseball umpire style. :ncaabbs:
That would be sweet to see that happen at a game. A ref points at coach Fox and then throws his arm up in the air like baseball umpires do when throwing someone out.
aggiefansince83 Wrote:I think it should be like baseball, you make contact with the offical and you are thrown out of the game. I know the crowd at the Pan Am would absolutely erupt if coach Fox was thrown out of a game, baseball umpire style. :ncaabbs:
That would be sweet to see that happen at a game. A ref points at coach Fox and then throws his arm up in the air like baseball umpires do when throwing someone out.
I agree with this. SixPack, the different scenarios that you are pointing out may merit different punishments. And there CAN be a very specific punishment for a particular action. I think the WAC is too subjective with this stuff. I think from one ref to the next you could be kicked out of a game. Where does a coach know where he/she's crossed the line? Shouldn't the WAC determine where that line should be?
ejmpalle Wrote:aggiefansince83 Wrote:I think it should be like baseball, you make contact with the offical and you are thrown out of the game. I know the crowd at the Pan Am would absolutely erupt if coach Fox was thrown out of a game, baseball umpire style. :ncaabbs:
That would be sweet to see that happen at a game. A ref points at coach Fox and then throws his arm up in the air like baseball umpires do when throwing someone out.
I agree with this. SixPack, the different scenarios that you are pointing out may merit different punishments. And there CAN be a very specific punishment for a particular action. I think the WAC is too subjective with this stuff. I think from one ref to the next you could be kicked out of a game. Where does a coach know where he/she's crossed the line? Shouldn't the WAC determine where that line should be?
I don't see the problem with having an automatic ejection policy for any contact with an official, but even then there will be some subjectivity. If a coach puts his hand on an officials shoulder to get his attention he'll be violating the word of the law but not the spirit, but I doubt he'll be ejected. If that happened I wouldn't be surprised to see an opposing fan on the message boards calling for censure of the "offending" coach. It's business as usual. When fans feel their team has a vested outcome in how a rule is applied, objectivity usually goes out the window. The most obvious example of that is last year's Nevada vs Hawaii basketball game.
I am curious to know why it took the WAC 3 weeks later to reprimand Fox than it did Theus for their behaviors at the WAC tourney.
From what I understand, Fox's behavior now puts him on "warning" level, next time he does anything, he'll face more severe penalties. And meanwhile, WAC basketball has a new face for the rest of the conference to hate.
Let me ask the question another way-
If Fox was the Idaho coach, and Fox's team finished with the same record as Idaho...is this even an issue?
Or do other fans 'hate' the man because he is coaching a team with four straight WAC titles, and an incident like this makes it easy to come out and bash the guy?
I'm willing to venture if Fox is coaching a last place team, this isn't even an issue with the fans, and I'm willing to venture that if Fox is coaching a last place team but did the exact same thing, people wouldn't be hating him.
And although I doubt anyone will admit to it...I think this is absolutely true. People aren't bashing Fox because of an incident that's been blown way out of proportion. People are bashing him because he's the most successful coach in the league right now.
I think you may be on to something here. While I think Stew Morrill is probably the best basketball coach in the WAC and a phenomenal recruiter, I just can't stand the guy on any level. He came into to the WAC bad mouthing the conference from day one and that irritates the hell out of me. When he isn't whining about something he is complaining about something else. But..If he were the coach at Idaho would this bother me as much?.. I doubt it. I am guessing it ticks me off because USU is a top notch basketball school and I like the Aggie players and fans. I don't see what Stew has to complain about.
Six Pack Wrote:Or do other fans 'hate' the man because he is coaching a team with four straight WAC titles, and an incident like this makes it easy to come out and bash the guy?
OK, first of all, let's stick to the topic of the thread. Being the moderator of this board, I'd expect that of you. Second, it doesn't make a difference whether a player/coach represents a winning team or a losing team. Unnacceptable behavior is unacceptable behavior. There's no pass for being a losing player/coach or winning player/coach, IMO.
When it comes to Coach Fox, I'm very suprised he didn't recieve more severe punishment. I think the WAC went way to easy on him. I'd feel the same way about any other WAC coach if he/she behaved as Coach Fox did.
Let's stick to the topic of the thread and not focus on Coach Fox, because I know I'll eventually be flamed and cursed for thinking that Fox should've recieved more severe punishment.
The topic of this thread, started by you I might add, was in direct reference to Mark Fox, so I'm not quite sure how this is out of topic. Relax.
All I did was ask a question for the purpose of discussion (this is what this board is for, right?). I raise an interesting point. If you disagree, please feel free to respond to it. If you think Fox should receive more punishment, then explain and say so. Not everybody has to agree with each other and sing kumbaya and hold hands. If you've got an opinion, then state it.