CSNbbs

Agent Smith (joeborden) .... Neo (Big Pimpin Deac) has arrived to unbalance the equation.

So are they conservatives or just anti-libs?

doh

Big Pimpin Deac is Rush Limbaugh without the drugs, and with the attitude of the Godfather.

Not another "Dittohead".......

doh

Speaking of Rush.......this is what he had to say about the prisoner abuse in his own glib way.

"This is no different than what happens at the Skull and Bones initiation and we're going to ruin people's lives over it and we're going to hamper our military effort, and then we are going to really hammer them because they had a good time. You know, these people are being fired at every day. I'm talking about people having a good time, these people, you ever heard of emotional release? You heard of need to blow some steam off? "

Because they were having a good time????

He can't be totally off the drugs.

I can't believe anyone who thinks for themselves takes Rush for anything other than entertainment value.


doh

i know the abuse is a bad thing, but it's not as bad as the media makes it out to be. My dad was telling me that he and his friends went through worse things during hell night (initiation for his frat).

Worse than being bitten by guard dogs?

Not trying to trivialize anything your dad did but these are prisoners who are in fear of being killed.

There's a difference.

doh

flyingswoosh Wrote:i know the abuse is a bad thing, but it's not as bad as the media makes it out to be. My dad was telling me that he and his friends went through worse things during hell night (initiation for his frat).

I was in a frat, and went through some weird stuff, but I don't recall having dogs biting me or being forced to sodomize another man. Your Dad must have had some REALLY demented frat brothers. :rolleyes:

HuskieDan Wrote:

flyingswoosh Wrote:i know the abuse is a bad thing, but it's not as bad as the media makes it out to be.  My dad was telling me that he and his friends went through worse things during hell night (initiation for his frat).

I was in a frat, and went through some weird stuff, but I don't recall having dogs biting me or being forced to sodomize another man. Your Dad must have had some REALLY demented frat brothers. :rolleyes:

having a bucket of puke thrown on you is pretty bad. jumping in freezing water naked is pretty bad too.

Also, when were these prisoners bitten by dogs? i'm not saying you're lying, i just didn't hear that.

flyingswoosh Wrote:

HuskieDan Wrote:

flyingswoosh Wrote:i know the abuse is a bad thing, but it's not as bad as the media makes it out to be.  My dad was telling me that he and his friends went through worse things during hell night (initiation for his frat).

I was in a frat, and went through some weird stuff, but I don't recall having dogs biting me or being forced to sodomize another man. Your Dad must have had some REALLY demented frat brothers. :rolleyes:

having a bucket of puke thrown on you is pretty bad. jumping in freezing water naked is pretty bad too.

Also, when were these prisoners bitten by dogs? i'm not saying you're lying, i just didn't hear that.

Your dad had a choice--he didn't have to join a frat, and the Iraqi prisoner torture incident(s) are bad, really, really bad. Your dad likely knew about hell night, and forged ahead anyway.

Without getting too much into it, culture here dictates the real misery those Iraqi prisoners were going through.

In their culture, being a naked male in front of a female is indeed dreadful. Many of them will be shunned by their own families and communities, although they had no choice in it. This aspect of their culture cannot be fully understood by us, but in some respects this psychological abuse was far more harmful to them than physical abuse.

Rape and sodomy carries emotional trauma for anyone in any culture, times 200 for Arab culture.

Politically, it shows the Iraqi people that the insurgency is correct about Americans, leading to growing insecurity of our forces over there.

All that being said, abuse of prisoners in a combat zone is rather normal (and it is usually never condoned). War is horrible in ways that those of us who have never been in a war can never understand. It makes people do terrible things to one another and it leads to amazing levels of suffering.

It is for these reasons here that I have disdain anytime my government wants to engage in war. Prior to the invasion of Afghanistan and Iraq, I was aware atrocities would occur if we waged war. What surprises me is the information is out. I always figured any information concerning wartime atrocities or mistreatment of the enemy would be tight-lipped.

This is not a moral thing here. American troops are no less or more moral than any other fighters out there. A person of very fine moral character can inevitably find themselves commiting atrocities or mistreatment.
Countless examples from the American Civil War illustrate this point. Atrocities, in that conflict, were commited against civilians and soldiers alike, and done under the umbrella of a common culture.

Not all persons do this, but it is normal behavior when faced with a combat zone daily. The stress and adrenaline levels can give some people a hallucinogenic experience and aid the loosening of their grip on reality.
The way it has been explained to me, is the combat soldier kills and must kill to survive. Killing is the worst you can do to someone, anything short of killing someone is not quite that bad. Consequently, people are mistreated, but those engaging in the mistreatment think it is not that bad because their victims are not being killed.

So when war was suggested, I knew that mistreatment, etc was a feature of warfare. So many Americans cavalierly forged ahead in strong support of war, without really critically examining what warfare is about or what it breeds.

let me just say that i understand this is bad. I also want to state that this was abuse, not torture.

Does anyone know if the abused people are terrorists or linked to terrorism?

flyingswoosh Wrote:let me just say that i understand this is bad. I also want to state that this was abuse, not torture.

Does anyone know if the abused people are terrorists or linked to terrorism?

Many have been released, long before the photos came out.

Some are saying 25 died while in Anglo/American custody, another ten died accidentally. How does one die accidentally while in prison?

Abuse, torture, semantics takes the negative connotations out of it. We could call it "gobbletygook" and what happened is still bad.

What this incident shows are how callous some Americans' attitudes are toward those individuals that belong to a radically different culture.

It also shows that some soldiers, regardless of their moral character, regardless of their culture, regardless of their nationality will abuse any modicum of power--something evident for all soldiers of all countries, in all wars through history. Warfare is bad, really, really bad. That is why some Americans opposed this war and oppose all wars. It's not because these Americans are peaceniks, idealists, wimps or imbeciles--it's because some Americans know that bad things result from waging war.

flyingswoosh Wrote:

HuskieDan Wrote:

flyingswoosh Wrote:i know the abuse is a bad thing, but it's not as bad as the media makes it out to be.  My dad was telling me that he and his friends went through worse things during hell night (initiation for his frat).

I was in a frat, and went through some weird stuff, but I don't recall having dogs biting me or being forced to sodomize another man. Your Dad must have had some REALLY demented frat brothers. :rolleyes:

having a bucket of puke thrown on you is pretty bad. jumping in freezing water naked is pretty bad too.

Also, when were these prisoners bitten by dogs? i'm not saying you're lying, i just didn't hear that.

Perhaps you should read more - there are pics (that I have seen) of a naked Iraqi man against a wall and a pair of dogs on leashes within about 5 feet of him. There is another pic (that I have only heard about) of the same Iraqi on the ground bleeding with what appear to be dog bite marks all over his legs.

I certainly hope you don't equate jumping into cold water to forced anal rape. :shock:

flyingswoosh Wrote:let me just say that i understand this is bad. I also want to state that this was abuse, not torture.

Does anyone know if the abused people are terrorists or linked to terrorism?

I know where you're coming from.........but if someone is constantly abused, day after day, does that not constitute torture?

It's hard to draw a line here between abuse and torture. We agree that it's a bad thing.

As for the men being "mistreated" I haven't heard if any of them were known terrorists. There is no well defined army that we are fighting over there, so it's really hard to put a label on any of those people.

doh

HuskieDan Wrote:

flyingswoosh Wrote:

HuskieDan Wrote:

flyingswoosh Wrote:i know the abuse is a bad thing, but it's not as bad as the media makes it out to be.  My dad was telling me that he and his friends went through worse things during hell night (initiation for his frat).

I was in a frat, and went through some weird stuff, but I don't recall having dogs biting me or being forced to sodomize another man. Your Dad must have had some REALLY demented frat brothers. :rolleyes:

having a bucket of puke thrown on you is pretty bad. jumping in freezing water naked is pretty bad too.

Also, when were these prisoners bitten by dogs? i'm not saying you're lying, i just didn't hear that.

Perhaps you should read more - there are pics (that I have seen) of a naked Iraqi man against a wall and a pair of dogs on leashes within about 5 feet of him. There is another pic (that I have only heard about) of the same Iraqi on the ground bleeding with what appear to be dog bite marks all over his legs.

I certainly hope you don't equate jumping into cold water to forced anal rape. :shock:

okay, thanks. I knew about everything else, but i didn't read about the dogs.

flyingswoosh Wrote:I also want to state that this was abuse, not torture.

That all depends on your tolerance for being sodomized, I suppose. :rolleyes:

Quote:Does anyone know if the abused people are terrorists or linked to terrorism?

How is that pertinent? The very LAST rationale for this war, after all of the previous ones were shown to be false, was to free the Iraqi people from the abuse and torture that they suffered under Saddam. The last thing the liberators should be doing is to abuse and torture prisoners. Not to mention, as Americans, we do NOT systematically do something like this. This began in Afghanistan and Guantanamo and came from the top. Our standing in the world is even lower now. Furthermore, Iraq committed NO acts of terror against the United States to provoke this act of aggression. The terrorists who flew those planes into U.S. targets were mainly our friends the Saudis, led by a Saudi whose family is close friends with the Bush family. Not that the Geneva Convention distinguishes between terrorists captured during wartime and regular POWs.

Oddball Wrote:How is that pertinent? The very LAST rationale for this war, after all of the previous ones were shown to be false, was to free the Iraqi people from the abuse and torture that they suffered under Saddam. The last thing the liberators should be doing is to abuse and torture prisoners. Not to mention, as Americans, we do NOT systematically do something like this. This began in Afghanistan and Guantanamo and came from the top. Our standing in the world is even lower now. Furthermore, Iraq committed NO acts of terror against the United States to provoke this act of aggression. The terrorists who flew those planes into U.S. targets were mainly our friends the Saudis, led by a Saudi whose family is close friends with the Bush family. Not that the Geneva Convention distinguishes between terrorists captured during wartime and regular POWs.

of course it's pertinent. If those people were terrorists who had been trying to cause unrest, then i'd be okay with all of this torture.

Oddball Wrote:The terrorists who flew those planes into U.S. targets were mainly our friends the Saudis, led by a Saudi whose family is close friends with the Bush family. Not that the Geneva Convention distinguishes between terrorists captured during wartime and regular POWs.

Under this assertion, we should take out the Saudis? Why do you think Bin Laden choose Saudi's? To try to divide the two countries, and it worked for awhile. We were very cautious of them after 9/11, but thankfully normal people are running the country, and not people who will fall for the mind games that al qaida plays.

MaumeeRocket Wrote:

Oddball Wrote:The terrorists who flew those planes into U.S. targets were mainly our friends the Saudis, led by a Saudi whose family is close friends with the Bush family. Not that the Geneva Convention distinguishes between terrorists captured during wartime and regular POWs.

Under this assertion, we should take out the Saudis? Why do you think Bin Laden choose Saudi's? To try to divide the two countries, and it worked for awhile. We were very cautious of them after 9/11, but thankfully normal people are running the country, and not people who will fall for the mind games that al qaida plays.

Good thing Bush flew them all out of the country before they could be questioned by our authorities, otherwise we probably would have ruined a beautiful friendship.

flyingswoosh Wrote:

Oddball Wrote:How is that pertinent? The very LAST rationale for this war, after all of the previous ones were shown to be false, was to free the Iraqi people from the abuse and torture that they suffered under Saddam. The last thing the liberators should be doing is to abuse and torture prisoners. Not to mention, as Americans, we do NOT systematically do something like this. This began in Afghanistan and Guantanamo and came from the top. Our standing in the world is even lower now. Furthermore, Iraq committed NO acts of terror against the United States to provoke this act of aggression. The terrorists who flew those planes into U.S. targets were mainly our friends the Saudis, led by a Saudi whose family is close friends with the Bush family. Not that the Geneva Convention distinguishes between terrorists captured during wartime and regular POWs.

of course it's pertinent. If those people were terrorists who had been trying to cause unrest, then i'd be okay with all of this torture.

You being "okay" with us violating the Geneva Convention makes me feel much better.