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You may or may not like Ann Coulter. Regardless of that, read this article she wrote. It contrasts the Ten Commandments, which are considered "offensive", with things funded in whole or in part by our tax dollars.

<a href='http://www.anncoulter.com/cgi-local/printer_friendly.cgi?article=63' target='_blank'>THOU SHALT NOT COMMIT RELIGION</a>

I was aware of some of these examples, but not all. Some of these are shockingly vile. I'm ashamed that my government supports these kinds of things.
We live in a reprehensible society. A land of "unclean lips".

People who crave some of those "art" works, yet cannot accept the 10 Commandments as literature.

It's total hypocrisy.
I found this pretty interesting:

Congress cannot make a law...prohibiting the states from establishing a religion.
Wow, what a scary time for our country.
DrTorch Wrote:We live in a reprehensible society.&nbsp; A land of "unclean lips".
I disagree. I think we live in perhaps the greatest society in human history, despite the fact that it is peppered with enough idiots to keep Ann Coulter employed.

DrTorch Wrote:cannot accept the 10 Commandments as literature.

This is disingenuous - it is not put on display as literature, and that is explicity stated in the court decision regarding the Kentucky decision:

[quote="SupremeCourt"]Their assertions that true “purpose
Ann Coulter is an idiot...and after reading that, she's a bigger idiot than I thought she was just 5 minutes ago. She is no better than Michael Moore...in fact, she's worse. At least he can be funny from time to time.

Basically, she hates the Smithsonian and the NEA...oh yeah, and the statements of a few nut-job professors can be used to no end to make her point. Let's not forget that she believes that the witch hunts conducted under McCarthy were a good thing and any stories of excessive "witch hunting" were simply lies concocted by liberals to tarnish the reputation or a fine American.

Quote:The First Amendment prohibits Congress from making any law "respecting" an establishment of religion — meaning Congress cannot make a law establishing a religion, nor can it make a law prohibiting the states from establishing a religion. We've been through this a million times.

Quote:Amendment I
Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof...

Funny...what she says the Constitution says, and what the Constitution actually says don't exactly match up.
99Tiger Wrote:
Quote:Amendment I
Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof...

Funny...what she says the Constitution says, and what the Constitution actually says don't exactly match up.
I like that ammendment.

It means if a student wants to pray during his/her valedictorian speech at school (free exercise), the government can't do a thing to stop it (Congress shall make no law prohibiting the free exercise).

But, like I said in the OP, whether you like her or not, you really can't defend some of the actions listed in her article.
umbluegray Wrote:
99Tiger Wrote:
Quote:Amendment I
Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof...

Funny...what she says the Constitution says, and what the Constitution actually says don't exactly match up.
I like that ammendment.

It means if a student wants to pray during his/her valedictorian speech at school (free exercise), the government can't do a thing to stop it (Congress shall make no law prohibiting the free exercise).

But, like I said in the OP, whether you like her or not, you really can't defend some of the actions listed in her article.
While I find several of the things mentioned in her article distasteful, disturbing, and offensive, the NEA doesn't really know what's it getting when it provides fundage to aspiring artists.

How much money should be going to the NEA is a matter for debate (I really think they could stand to get a little bit of the business end of the axe), but it's not exactly as if someone came to the NEA and said "I want to do..." and they reply "OK, we'll give you money for that!"

As far as praying at graduation. I think it's very insensitive...but the government shouldn't be able to do squat about it. Yes, I really do think it's insensitive...maybe that's because I went to school with a large number of non-Christians (and realized they're not so bad).
Never specified a Christian prayer.

But if the non-Christians weren't so bad, would they really care if somebody prayed?
99Tiger Wrote:Let's not forget that she believes that the witch hunts conducted under McCarthy were a good thing and any stories of excessive "witch hunting" were simply lies concocted by liberals to tarnish the reputation or a fine American.
They were a good thing............although I do not accept the pejorative "witch hunt" in this context...............

The Democrats knowingly allowed Soviet spies to infiltrate the government..............Truman stood behind Algier Hiss when told that he was a commie spy and slandered Whitaker Chambers in the process...........turned out Hiss was a Soviet spy. The liberal communist elite took out McCarthy and eventually did in Nixon because they hated that both of them exposed what was going on. There were communist spies in both the State and Defense Departments and they almost brought down the government in the Cold War.

These same types have just moved over to the Environmental and other crack pot movements..............

But don't let the facts get into the way...............
RandyMc Wrote:
99Tiger Wrote:Let's not forget that she believes that the witch hunts conducted under McCarthy were a good thing and any stories of excessive "witch hunting" were simply lies concocted by liberals to tarnish the reputation or a fine American.
They were a good thing............although I do not accept the pejorative "witch hunt" in this context...............

The Democrats knowingly allowed Soviet spies to infiltrate the government..............Truman stood behind Algier Hiss when told that he was a commie spy and slandered Whitaker Chambers in the process...........turned out Hiss was a Soviet spy. The liberal communist elite took out McCarthy and eventually did in Nixon because they hated that both of them exposed what was going on. There were communist spies in both the State and Defense Departments and they almost brought down the government in the Cold War.

These same types have just moved over to the Environmental and other crack pot movements..............

But don't let the facts get into the way...............
So true. Today's youth, including myself, have (had) been indoctrinated with the false concept that McCarthy did not find any communists in his so-called "witch hunts" and ran around bad mouthing individuals such as members of Hollywood (which is about 5 years before McCarthy even reached the scene in D.C.). Meanwhile, for those who do their research, they will discover that there were over 300 known spies in the State Department, as well as the Army and other sensitive areas. This included Alger Hiss and the #1 "victims" the Rosenbergs. "Strangely", Julian Rosenbergs Soviet code name was "Liberal", later changed to "Umbrella" when the former was deemed to obvious. Surprised? Shouldn't be.
And instead of treating McCarthy as a hero, our history vilifies him.
umbluegray Wrote:And instead of treating McCarthy as a hero, our history vilifies him.
Its because they also don't realize (or is it they just choose to ignore?) that he is a decorated war hero who served in the Pacific during WWII, flying over 16 combat missions.
RandyMc Wrote:
99Tiger Wrote:Let's not forget that she believes that the witch hunts conducted under McCarthy were a good thing and any stories of excessive "witch hunting" were simply lies concocted by liberals to tarnish the reputation or a fine American.
They were a good thing............although I do not accept the pejorative "witch hunt" in this context...............

The Democrats knowingly allowed Soviet spies to infiltrate the government..............Truman stood behind Algier Hiss when told that he was a commie spy and slandered Whitaker Chambers in the process...........turned out Hiss was a Soviet spy. The liberal communist elite took out McCarthy and eventually did in Nixon because they hated that both of them exposed what was going on. There were communist spies in both the State and Defense Departments and they almost brought down the government in the Cold War.

These same types have just moved over to the Environmental and other crack pot movements..............

But don't let the facts get into the way...............
I never said that he never uncovered any communists. However, he took down quite a few true American citizens that would have never dreamed of becoming communist spies. Their biggest crime...basically being dissidents, but wasn't our country founded by dissidents?

And don't blame "liberals" for taking down McCarthy. His own party turned on him when his actions became excessive and I believe that the motion to censure him came from a conservative.

...and Nixon took himself down. That was not the result of any left-wing conspiracy, that was the result of his office participating in illegal activities in an attempt to retain power.

For his war record...I'm certainly not going to criticize him for his combat missions. However, he is far more notable for the era of McCarthyism (a name he penned himself), so naturally, that will be what people think of when they hear "Joseph McCarthy".
99Tiger Wrote:1) I never said that he never uncovered any communists. However, he took down quite a few true American citizens that would have never dreamed of becoming communist spies. Their biggest crime...basically being dissidents, but wasn't our country founded by dissidents?

2) the era of McCarthyism (a name he penned himself), so naturally, that will be what people think of when they hear "Joseph McCarthy".
1) Name one American he named that was innocent and that he accused. McCarthy didn't name names until he was basically ordered to do so. Odds are, you can't find one. History books tell us about the thousands of people who McCarthy "took out", but never mention names. I wonder why that is? :rolleyes:

And the problem wasn't because they didn't believe in the a capitalist system or democracy or any of that stuff. The problem was to root out members of the Communist party that had infiltrated some of the most secure sections of the US State Department. The reason they had to remove CPUSA members was because the organization was established to destroy the US government and was taking orders from the KGB. Kind of a security threat to have those types of people running the govn't. McCarthy did his job, and did it damn well. But Congress decided instead to turn a blind eye, which they had already done the first 10 years after WWII, and would continue doing.

2) Actually, I think it was either a guy from the LA or NY Times that first used that phrase.
T-Monay820 Wrote:
99Tiger Wrote:1) I never said that he never uncovered any communists.&nbsp; However, he took down quite a few true American citizens that would have never dreamed of becoming communist spies.&nbsp; Their biggest crime...basically being dissidents, but wasn't our country founded by dissidents?

2) the era of McCarthyism (a name he penned himself), so naturally, that will be what people think of when they hear "Joseph McCarthy".
1) Name one American he named that was innocent and that he accused. McCarthy didn't name names until he was basically ordered to do so. Odds are, you can't find one. History books tell us about the thousands of people who McCarthy "took out", but never mention names. I wonder why that is? :rolleyes:

And the problem wasn't because they didn't believe in the a capitalist system or democracy or any of that stuff. The problem was to root out members of the Communist party that had infiltrated some of the most secure sections of the US State Department. The reason they had to remove CPUSA members was because the organization was established to destroy the US government and was taking orders from the KGB. Kind of a security threat to have those types of people running the govn't. McCarthy did his job, and did it damn well. But Congress decided instead to turn a blind eye, which they had already done the first 10 years after WWII, and would continue doing.

2) Actually, I think it was either a guy from the LA or NY Times that first used that phrase.
1) Let's start with him accusing Army officers of being Communists. He made a huge deal of Communists in the Army and never provided any tangible proof...this was the downfall of his career, because it showed that he had nothing.

He accused President Truman of being "a satisfactory front" to the Communist Party.

He accused General Marshall of supporting/helping Communist Russia through his policies and actions, stating in front of Congress in a speech on Marshall:

Quote:This must be the product of a great conspiracy, a conspiracy on a scale so immense as to dwarf any previous such venture in the history of man. A conspiracy of infamy so black that, when it is finally exposed, its principals shall be forever deserving of the maledictions of all honest men.

But my counter question to you is...who did McCarthy out as being a Communist spy? Of all of the people on his list of 205 that he initially bragged about (later reduced to 81), how many of them were ever convicted of anything related to espionage or the Communist Party? Most of the 81, did lose their jobs, but to the best of my knowledge, no charges were ever brought forth.

2) He may not have been the person who initially coined the phrase "McCarthyism", but he certainly didn't mind using it in the title of his book: "McCarthyism: The Fight for America".

Rebel

While I admit, I'm not really up on the whole "McCarthy" dealings, aside from the fact that they happened, but it might help all of you on both sides to provide links. This looks like a lot of "He said, She said".
99.......here is your list...............along with a link for Kevin.................

<a href='http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Venona' target='_blank'>VENONA Project</a>
99Tiger Wrote:1a) Let's start with him accusing Army officers of being Communists. He made a huge deal of Communists in the Army and never provided any tangible proof...this was the downfall of his career, because it showed that he had nothing.

1b)He accused President Truman of being "a satisfactory front" to the Communist Party.

He accused General Marshall of supporting/helping Communist Russia through his policies and actions, stating in front of Congress in a speech on Marshall:

2) But my counter question to you is...who did McCarthy out as being a Communist spy? Of all of the people on his list of 205 that he initially bragged about (later reduced to 81), how many of them were ever convicted of anything related to espionage or the Communist Party? Most of the 81, did lose their jobs, but to the best of my knowledge, no charges were ever brought forth.
Alright I split it into a couple of parts, but first I think I should reclarify a statement, or misconception: McCarthy was not simple looking for spies, but potential security risks (i.e. members of the CPUSA within the government). He was assigned to the Senate Permanent Subcommittee on Investigations of the Committee on Government Operations, whose job it was to find subversive activity within the Government.

1a) Like I said, give me a name, and one other than Irving Peress.

1b) These people you named weren't accused as communists by McCarthy. Calling something a sympathizer is one thing, and I hardly doubt that hurt their careers (though I don't recall reading about McCarthy going after Marshall) not to mention that John F. Kennedy also criticised Roosevelt, Marshall, and "our diplomats and their advisers, the Lattimores and the Fairbanks," for failing to take a hard stand, especially abondoning Chiang Kai-Shek in China.

2a) He claimed to have a list of 57, but no one knows who was on the original list, since he never shared it with anyone. The 205 is just a mathematical game done to try and "prove" that McCarthy was making up numbers as he went. In his Wheeling speech, McCarthy referred to a letter that Secretary of State James Byrnes sent to Congressman Adolph Sabath in 1946. In that letter, Byrnes said that State Department security investigators had declared 284 persons unfit to hold jobs in the department because of communist connections and other reasons, but that only 79 had been discharged, leaving 205 still on the State Department's payroll. McCarthy told his Wheeling audience that while he did not have the names of the 205 mentioned in the Byrnes letter, he did have the names of 57 who were either members of or loyal to the Communist Party. On February 20, 1950, McCarthy gave the Senate information about 81 individuals - the 57 referred to at Wheeling and 24 others of less importance and about whom the evidence was less conclusive. Yet when in Congress, McCarthy did not refer to people by their names but instead, by their case numbers. There was also a congressional commitee dedicated to verifying how many names McCarthy had claimed, and they came back with the conclusion that is was 57.

2b) I don't know if these people were on his list (nor a way to verify), but Annie Lee Moss, Irving Peress, Laurence Duggan, Reinhold Niebuhr, to name a few.

2c) Whether you agree with it or not, it was actually illegal to be a member of the communist party for some time after 1948ish. I'll find a link later if I can rediscover it.

For more info on Soviet espionage in the US, check out Venona : Decoding Soviet Espionage in America by John Earl Haynes and Harvey Klehr (I personally own this and it has an entire list of names and their code callsigns in the back, and its literally a list). And for more on McCarthy, a very thorough report: <a href='http://www.geocities.com/CapitolHill/Senate/1777/mccarthy.htm' target='_blank'>http://www.geocities.com/CapitolHill/Senat...77/mccarthy.htm</a>. And if you have a ton of time: <a href='http://www.senate.gov/artandhistory/history/common/generic/McCarthy_Transcripts.htm' target='_blank'>http://www.senate.gov/artandhistory/histor...Transcripts.htm</a>. I spent 3 solid months doing research on McCarthy, and did a full 2-hour presentation on him this year. I would send you the presentation if I wasn't locked out of my user profile on my school's server.

The bottom line is (distorted over time and with the "evolution" of the mantra Communist Party within the US): the Communist party is dedicated to the overthrow of the US government by any means necessary (i.e. violence), and it was incredibly dangerous to have people whose first loyalty was to the communist movement in positions of power within the US government and taking orders from the KGB and Kremlin. The US made a huge mistake in ignoring this subversive activity of the Cold War era (Repubs and Dems alike), yet people continue to condemn the most important person in the anti-subversive movement instead of admitting they were wrong.

NOTE: Its late, so this may have a couple of typos. :snore:
I yield the balance of my time to the good poster from Virginia Tech.............Mr. T-Monay820............... 04-bow
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